Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:what B6 expansion? Like new airports or new routes?
madg wrote:With DL Leaving MHT B6 Might come in but I'm still not sure. I think the earliest you could see DL Back in MHT is in 5 to 6 years.
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:I guess MHT makes sense if the airport gives them a deal. JetBlue is a well established and known brand in both BOS and BTV. Would help the people in the middle who drive to them. The only airport I can really see being added in New England.
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:HVN airport was basically Yale University shuttle for people who didn't like travelling all the way to NYC for flights. We will see those students back on metro North/Amtrak now. Newark airport station on Amtrak is pretty convenient and easy. With school so remote it only made sense the airports demand totally dried up. I could see AA returning if they get a good deal and offer. I think we will see airlines do this more in the future. Leave on purpose or threaten too for a good offer to come back. AA knows demand to that airport is dead for a while
madg wrote:With DL Leaving MHT B6 Might come in but I'm still not sure. I think the earliest you could see DL Back in MHT is in 5 to 6 years.
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:MHT was on a downward spin before covid. We all know it doesn't fit the normal covid issues discussed all over a. Net
I agree with everyone not sure B6 gains that much serving MHT, I would just say maybe and only if the airport throws money their way. They have planes
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:MHT was on a downward spin before covid. We all know it doesn't fit the normal covid issues discussed all over a. Net
I agree with everyone not sure B6 gains that much serving MHT, I would just say maybe and only if the airport throws money their way. They have planes
737Jason wrote:madg wrote:With DL Leaving MHT B6 Might come in but I'm still not sure. I think the earliest you could see DL Back in MHT is in 5 to 6 years.
I can’t see delta back, period. As it was, they only had 3x MHT-DTW, 1x MHT-ATL and 1x MHT-LGA, a far cry from what they used to have. But I could see AA taking over the MHT-LGA route, since they have a hub there. Sad to see this happening to the airport.
PVDCMHOZ wrote:Speaking of DL... it looks like they are scheduled to resume PVD service (3X ATL and 3X DTW) on March 2. Any idea if that will hold? Do you think DL will return to PVD?
georgiabill wrote:If MHT were to gain a new airline in the next 3 to 4 years most likely be F9,NK or G4 with a few flights per week to a couple destinations. I could see MHT-FLL, MHT-RSW given a try if it were F9 or NK. I doubt it but G4 trying MHT-LAS 3x might be possible sometime in the future.
For existing carriers I would like to WN resume MHT-DEN and consider resuming MHT-BNA or trying MHT-STL. AA a long shot would be a RJ MHT-MIA connecting with Caribbean Central and South American flights. MHT-DFW sat only summer service perhaps when vacation travel picks up.
tphuang wrote:well, DL hasn't done their large March cuts yet. You probably want to take a little bit to see what they will actually bring back in March.
Cboyle wrote:georgiabill wrote:If MHT were to gain a new airline in the next 3 to 4 years most likely be F9,NK or G4 with a few flights per week to a couple destinations. I could see MHT-FLL, MHT-RSW given a try if it were F9 or NK. I doubt it but G4 trying MHT-LAS 3x might be possible sometime in the future.
For existing carriers I would like to WN resume MHT-DEN and consider resuming MHT-BNA or trying MHT-STL. AA a long shot would be a RJ MHT-MIA connecting with Caribbean Central and South American flights. MHT-DFW sat only summer service perhaps when vacation travel picks up.
G4 is already at PSM, like 30 minutes from MHT. They will be staying there. I could see them adding PSM-LAS in the future...
PVD523 wrote:tphuang wrote:well, DL hasn't done their large March cuts yet. You probably want to take a little bit to see what they will actually bring back in March.
Which is what makes me concerned about DL's eventual PVD return. First their return was scheduled for last September, then it was pushed to October, then December, and now out to March. The northeast continues to lag the rest of the country with any sort of traffic rebound, so we'll see if March holds. I'm not sure there's enough market available yet at PVD to make it worth their dime, but I'll second RL757PVD's potential schedule for when they indeed come back.
PVDCMHOZ wrote:Speaking of DL... it looks like they are scheduled to resume PVD service (3X ATL and 3X DTW) on March 2. Any idea if that will hold? Do you think DL will return to PVD?
deltairlines wrote:slcdeltarumd11 wrote:MHT was on a downward spin before covid. We all know it doesn't fit the normal covid issues discussed all over a. Net
I agree with everyone not sure B6 gains that much serving MHT, I would just say maybe and only if the airport throws money their way. They have planes
The biggest thing that hurts MHT is that a large part of their population base happens to be south of them - the Merrimack Valley of Massachusetts is pretty strong in terms of population (think the I-495 stretch from Haverhill down through Westford). Ever since all the construction in and around Boston finished in the mid-2000s (and the concurrent B6 ramp up), it's made it just as easy to get to Logan as it is to get to Manchester; even a place like Salem, NH is only another 10 minutes more to BOS than it is to MHT.
A lot of these people in the late 1990s/early 2000s would choose MHT; WN ran a good operation, fares were much cheaper than BOS (which had minimal LCC competition before B6) and you didn't have to deal with the Big Dig and construction at BOS itself (Terminal A was being rebuilt during the early 2000s). Now flip the script - you have a LCC having a hub at BOS which has brought fares down a ton, a much larger LCC presence otherwise too (NK, WN, etc.) and the roads aren't as bad. It's no reason people in this region (which is about 600k people) are going back to BOS. Add in Nashua, Salem and Windham (which would naturally go to MHT but it's less than 15 minutes more to go to BOS) and that's another 125k people.
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georgiabill wrote:For existing carriers I would like to WN resume MHT-DEN and consider resuming MHT-BNA or trying MHT-STL.
pwm2txlhopper wrote:What happened to Cape Air at PWM? Was service suspended, or dropped altogether?
Either way, not surprisingly, this service was short lived. I didn’t really think there was going to be enough demand to support their PWM-BOS flights when they began. Although, I was hopeful with the JetBlue codeshare that these flight might hang on. Pretty sure nobody was flying PWM-BOS, and most folks on the flights were connecting to JetBlue or other Cape Air flights.
Twenty years ago, between BEX and US Express, there were probably more daily PWM-BOS flights than anything else at PWM. And regional travel within New England and upstate New York use to be practical. (Say, if you wanted to fly PWM-PQI. Or PWM-ALB with a BOS connection) With the advent of RJs to more distant hubs, I think that killed need for PWM-BOS service, and subsequent regional connections via BOS? Honestly, I was kind of surprised when Cape Air announced service last year. Especially during the pandemic.
I have enjoyed seeing the DL 737-900 and AA 737-800’s at PWM. Both new types for each respective carrier. Between those two, as well as Southwest, it’s been years since there’s been three 737’s RONing at the gates at night. Plus, that’s the largest aircraft DL has flown into PWM in over twenty years. Last DL 757 was around 1995-97ish And last 727 was 1999. It was almost exclusively MD-80s until the last couple years. UA sent in an Airbus from IAD the other night, too. Still not like the old days of twenty years ago when there would be up to ten mainline jets at the gates in the morning.
airlineworker wrote:slcdeltarumd11 wrote:HVN airport was basically Yale University shuttle for people who didn't like travelling all the way to NYC for flights. We will see those students back on metro North/Amtrak now. Newark airport station on Amtrak is pretty convenient and easy. With school so remote it only made sense the airports demand totally dried up. I could see AA returning if they get a good deal and offer. I think we will see airlines do this more in the future. Leave on purpose or threaten too for a good offer to come back. AA knows demand to that airport is dead for a while
Before the virus for 3 years running, loads were increasing and starting out with CRJ-200's to CRJ-700's to E-175's to PHL. In July AA announced two daily flights to CLT replacing PHL. Much better hub to connect through. Now AA is offering one flight to PHL with times that just don't work especially the HVN-PHL flight. It arrives PHL after 7PM and on Tuesday and Wednesday in January and part of February, there are no connections except for overnighting in PHL. This will be a ferry flight, it seems AA is planning to fail at HVN.
I have used HVN for years and the Yale bit has been used for years. All types of travelers have used HVN and there is a large catchment area surrounding the airport. For years the runway was the main reason for low growth but with the advent of next-gen RJ's, the runway works quite well for several models. Trains are fine for New York and Boston, but no one uses long train trips anymore. The virus has dealt all airports a serious blow, but HVN with one airline was an easy target. Allegiant has said several times they want to come to HVN.
UA now with the CRJ-550 would be a good fit for ORD flights. Back in the 90's when UA had four daily 737 flights to ORD, a flight I was on from ORD to HVN was oversold.
The virus is the main issue with HVN, not the market.
RL757PVD wrote:PVD523 wrote:tphuang wrote:well, DL hasn't done their large March cuts yet. You probably want to take a little bit to see what they will actually bring back in March.
Which is what makes me concerned about DL's eventual PVD return. First their return was scheduled for last September, then it was pushed to October, then December, and now out to March. The northeast continues to lag the rest of the country with any sort of traffic rebound, so we'll see if March holds. I'm not sure there's enough market available yet at PVD to make it worth their dime, but I'll second RL757PVD's potential schedule for when they indeed come back.
The repeated effort to make it work (mid freefall) speaks of the market compared to others like MHT.
I wouldn't be surprised if March slipped, but I would also be surprised if they were not flying by June. If I was a betting person, I'd go with 4/1
jplatts wrote:There are still some more nonstop routes that could be added out of BDL on AS, DL, and WN once demand recovers such as BDL-SEA on AS, BDL-SLC on DL, and BDL-AUS/DAL/HOU/PHX on WN.
AUS, PHX, SLC, and SEA are also top destinations traveled to from BDL prior to the COVID-19 pandemic that aren't currently served nonstop from BDL.
MIflyer12 wrote:The Logan 2000 projects of the late 90s (2000 more days of construction!) in conjunction with the Big Dig really did improve access to BOS, changing the relative attractiveness of MHT for a lot of customers. It just IS. Through 2019 MHT passenger numbers had fallen by ~60% since 2005 while PWM's had grown by 50%. In 2005, MHT was nearly 3x the size of PWM and now PWM is the larger. For a regional airport, being within 1-1.5 hours of one of the country's biggest O&D airports is tough. It's not just MHT (or PVD): ask FNT, TOL, RST (and they've got the freakin' Mayo Clinic!) or Salem, OR.
LotsaRunway wrote:On the PVD front, there was a PointsGuy article a couple of days ago that discussed Amazon Air. He included a map that showed distribution centers and airports served. I noted that PVD was marked as a future station. Anyone know anything about this? I don't know if he made his own map or got it from Amazon, so I can't speak to the accuracy (nor can I find the article now to link). BDL is a fairly large Amazon Air airport, so I'm a little surprised that they would do another one so close, especially one that they once served and left.
BTV290 wrote:slcdeltarumd11 wrote:I guess MHT makes sense if the airport gives them a deal. JetBlue is a well established and known brand in both BOS and BTV. Would help the people in the middle who drive to them. The only airport I can really see being added in New England.
Help those people, yes, but at what cost to B6? I think you'd risk cannibalising BTV and to a lesser extent BOS... Obviously BOS is much less at risk, but it might chip away at the margins. BTV, though--different story. B6 has been struggling in BTV since the early 2010s. First it was 4x daily to 3x daily, then they lost the 320s... They tried MCO direct and that was short lived... Even the B6 staff in BTV (before they were unceremoniously outsourced) were surprised they were still flying... So I think having MHT down the road would do BTV no favours. And perhaps B6 is ok with that... But I just don't see a huge benefit to anyone.
EricBTV wrote:BTV290 wrote:slcdeltarumd11 wrote:I guess MHT makes sense if the airport gives them a deal. JetBlue is a well established and known brand in both BOS and BTV. Would help the people in the middle who drive to them. The only airport I can really see being added in New England.
Help those people, yes, but at what cost to B6? I think you'd risk cannibalising BTV and to a lesser extent BOS... Obviously BOS is much less at risk, but it might chip away at the margins. BTV, though--different story. B6 has been struggling in BTV since the early 2010s. First it was 4x daily to 3x daily, then they lost the 320s... They tried MCO direct and that was short lived... Even the B6 staff in BTV (before they were unceremoniously outsourced) were surprised they were still flying... So I think having MHT down the road would do BTV no favours. And perhaps B6 is ok with that... But I just don't see a huge benefit to anyone.
This is very interesting to me as a casual flyer out of BTV. I've always been a B6 fan and have definitely noticed the continued drawbacks, especially the loss of the 4th daily flight which was my preferred time slot. While I tend to fly near weekends or holidays, the flights have always seemed pretty full including the one time I flew BTV-MCO and I had thought there was a lot of business coming down from Quebec. This of course was up until Q1 2020. Pardon my ignorance, but what am I not seeing here? I'd hate to lose B6 at BTV, even though their schedule and pricing is becoming less and less enticing.
tomaheath wrote:PSMs recent rendering of the new terminal looks like it has a DL tail on the ramp wouldn’t that be something.
BTV290 wrote:EricBTV wrote:BTV290 wrote:
Help those people, yes, but at what cost to B6? I think you'd risk cannibalising BTV and to a lesser extent BOS... Obviously BOS is much less at risk, but it might chip away at the margins. BTV, though--different story. B6 has been struggling in BTV since the early 2010s. First it was 4x daily to 3x daily, then they lost the 320s... They tried MCO direct and that was short lived... Even the B6 staff in BTV (before they were unceremoniously outsourced) were surprised they were still flying... So I think having MHT down the road would do BTV no favours. And perhaps B6 is ok with that... But I just don't see a huge benefit to anyone.
This is very interesting to me as a casual flyer out of BTV. I've always been a B6 fan and have definitely noticed the continued drawbacks, especially the loss of the 4th daily flight which was my preferred time slot. While I tend to fly near weekends or holidays, the flights have always seemed pretty full including the one time I flew BTV-MCO and I had thought there was a lot of business coming down from Quebec. This of course was up until Q1 2020. Pardon my ignorance, but what am I not seeing here? I'd hate to lose B6 at BTV, even though their schedule and pricing is becoming less and less enticing.
Well a couple things...
1. As is often said on here, full flights do not necessarily mean profit. B6 caters to leisure and is focused on the east coast, so they aren't drawing from the [small] business market in the area that needs a more global network. The other thing is although yes at peak travel times, Quebecers can make up about 30 percent of BTV's departing passengers, it's not at all consistent. Canada's LCC market has expanded, PBG across the way is gaining some strength for the warm weather destinations--and really, the Canadians are only coming down for garbage fares. If there was a cheaper option out of somewhere in Canada, they'd be doing that... But that means the US carriers marketing to Canada are charging, well... Garbage fares.
2. Whilst flights may look full, they aren't always. My friends at B6 said they tended to hover between 70-85% LF... Which isn't great. I worked for another carrier when I was there, and B6 was always our safe bet nonrev escape plan, because when everyone else was full and oversold, they still somehow always had seats.
3. I just don't think BTV is that lucrative of a market. For anyone. DL can't maintain mainline year-round, UA has been on and off mainline flying for years, AA hasn't had a mainline bird on the ground since the mid-2000s... It couldn't retain its one international carrier even seasonally to Canada where supposedly all this business is coming from... So I just don't think B6 coming in with an all-mainline business model competing only for warm-weather vacation travel has ever gone that well.
Again, I don't have any insider info here--just my observations.
RL757PVD wrote:I'd be worried that the A220 is going to be too much airplane for market like BTV and PWM once the E190 goes away. My guess is that something between 9 seats (Cape Air) and 140 Seats (A220) will emerge to provide good markets like BTV and PWM with a reliable right sized fit to serve the B6 network. I know there is an aversion to props but the silver ATR's would be perfect for routes like BOS-BGR/PWM/ACK/MVY/BTV/ALB/SYR/ROC/ISP. Essentially what how Horizon allows AS to have a viable hub in a geographic corner.
3X ATRs feeding a reliable hub at BOS would better serve places like PWM and BTV than 2x E190 to JFK (with more seats too!)
mjgbtv wrote:RL757PVD wrote:I'd be worried that the A220 is going to be too much airplane for market like BTV and PWM once the E190 goes away. My guess is that something between 9 seats (Cape Air) and 140 Seats (A220) will emerge to provide good markets like BTV and PWM with a reliable right sized fit to serve the B6 network. I know there is an aversion to props but the silver ATR's would be perfect for routes like BOS-BGR/PWM/ACK/MVY/BTV/ALB/SYR/ROC/ISP. Essentially what how Horizon allows AS to have a viable hub in a geographic corner.
3X ATRs feeding a reliable hub at BOS would better serve places like PWM and BTV than 2x E190 to JFK (with more seats too!)
They could always get some A221s down the road. There are probably quite a few routes that the A223 is a bit too much for.
ExMilitaryEng wrote:FWIW, BTV and PBG attracts lots of passengers from the south shore of Montréal - as it is often less combersome than driving to Montreal's airport (YUL). Even myself, from BTV I flew PeopleExpres quite a few times, and also Jetblue in its first few years.
This is bound to change in a couple years however, when a regional rapid transit gets completed - linking Montreal's south shore to downtown, and later to YUL.
(Google "REM Montreal" to learn more about that new regional rapid transit)