SYRAVGEEK wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

SYR-DFW
https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-new ... l-airport/

Hope itll work this time, anyone happen to know the plane that will be on the route

About freaking time this came back. I'm betting (and hoping) it's a 175; we'll find out when AA actually issues a press release, or Saturday when it's published for sale.

Nice!! I always thought DFW-SYR/ROC were glaring omissions in AA's network.

Wish this route was a thing when I was living in SYR. Congratulations to SYR

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:

BGM appears to have just Delta (today a single flight to Detroit on the departure page, but then another banner shows 2, so unsure). I guess it's just a bit over an hour long drive up to Syracuse (SYR) that has 3 times the population, so it's a bit hard to attract flights I imagine.

Currently BGM is in a low period as far as number of carriers and flights are concerned, and you are correct, just one mid morning departure from DTW, returning early afternoon. A second DTW roundtrip was cut circa 2019. Reportedly the airport administration is trying to re-attract a flight to IAD (likely UA affiliated), which has been operated in the past. BGM also had nonstops to PHL and EWR in recent years, and prior to that, JFK, LGA, PIT, CVG, and possibly a few others I don't even remember. There were also multi-leg flight segments or "tags" between SYR, ITH and BGM.

Regarding "it's only 70 miles," which I've heard often on a.net...
I was occasionally willing to drive to SYR or AVP if I could get a nonstop flight from those airports to my destination, or if the ticket price differential was huge. But, if those flights required an enroute connection anyway, I would always fly out of BGM, even if the ticket price was somewhat higher. That "70 miles" (actually it was 90 for me) becomes a major headache if your return flight arrives after 11 p.m., you're already exhausted, and you then have to drive home through a snowstorm with poor visibility, with the last few miles of that drive on narrow, poorly lit mountainous local roads. Been there, done that, not fun.

YQBexYHZBGM wrote:

Regarding "it's only 70 miles," which I've heard often on a.net...
I was occasionally willing to drive to SYR or AVP if I could get a nonstop flight from those airports to my destination, or if the ticket price differential was huge. But, if those flights required an enroute connection anyway, I would always fly out of BGM, even if the ticket price was somewhat higher. That "70 miles" (actually it was 90 for me) becomes a major headache if your return flight arrives after 11 p.m., you're already exhausted, and you then have to drive home through a snowstorm with poor visibility, with the last few miles of that drive on narrow, poorly lit mountainous local roads. Been there, done that, not fun.

I appreciate that. I have the same rational with flying out of Tucson instead of Phoenix....

Over 10 diversions today at SYR due to weather. The main runway 10/28 just started a resurfacing project. Runway 15/33 is not ILS equipped, RNAV is out of service and weather was below minimums. Doesn't seem like the airlines were well informed in advance and airline ops anticipated this given the number of diversions.

asuflyer wrote:

Over 10 diversions today at SYR due to weather. The main runway 10/28 just started a resurfacing project. Runway 15/33 is not ILS equipped, RNAV is out of service and weather was below minimums. Doesn't seem like the airlines were well informed in advance and airline ops anticipated this given the number of diversions.

What flights diverted?

bluefltspecial wrote:

asuflyer wrote:

Over 10 diversions today at SYR due to weather. The main runway 10/28 just started a resurfacing project. Runway 15/33 is not ILS equipped, RNAV is out of service and weather was below minimums. Doesn't seem like the airlines were well informed in advance and airline ops anticipated this given the number of diversions.

What flights diverted?

The following flights diverted

AA5222 CR9 CLT divert to BUF
AA3276 CR7 ORD divert to ABE
SY8635 738 RDU divert to JFK (charter)
DL754 712 ATL divert to DTW
DL3972 CR7 DTW divert to JFK
AA6193 ER4 ORD divert to PHL
FX1667 752 BTV divert to IAD
AA6014 ER4 PHL divert to PHL
FX1914 752 BUF divert to EWR
AA4736 E75 DCA divert to ALB
AA2508 319 CLT divert to PHL
B6656 320 MCO divert to EWR

asuflyer wrote:

Over 10 diversions today at SYR due to weather. The main runway 10/28 just started a resurfacing project. Runway 15/33 is not ILS equipped, RNAV is out of service and weather was below minimums. Doesn't seem like the airlines were well informed in advance and airline ops anticipated this given the number of diversions.

Are you sure the RNAV was out of service? RNAV approaches are rarely out of service, unless there is a WAAS or RAIM outage for the area, which happens, but is rare. I don't see anything NOTAMed either.

What time were all those arrivals at? If they were mostly after 8pm, then yes, the weather was below minimums, even for the RNAV on 33.

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

SYR-DFW
https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-new ... l-airport/

Hope itll work this time, anyone happen to know the plane that will be on the route

If I recall correctly, the previous DFW-SYR/ROC flights actually did quite well. I remember doing a recon once at DFW when the ROC flight was departing just as the SYR inbound was arriving at the adjacent gate. Both flights were full).The problem was the length of time the planes were tied up on the respective routes. Those same planes were more profitably used on multiple trips out of DFW to places like LIT, TUL, AMA, LBB, etc. instead of a single longer trip to/from SYR or ROC.

Also, with respect to ALB, I believe AA had wanted to provide the DFW nonstops to ALB as well, but ALB was just out of the range for a nonstop on a CR7. (SYR and ROC were barely within the limits).

Now, will someone please explain to me while SYR and ROC get served by a 175 while the BGR-DFW flights get a 319?

TucsonDave wrote:

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

SYR-DFW
https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-new ... l-airport/

Hope itll work this time, anyone happen to know the plane that will be on the route

If I recall correctly, the previous DFW-SYR/ROC flights actually did quite well. I remember doing a recon once at DFW when the ROC flight was departing just as the SYR inbound was arriving at the adjacent gate. Both flights were full).The problem was the length of time the planes were tied up on the respective routes. Those same planes were more profitably used on multiple trips out of DFW to places like LIT, TUL, AMA, LBB, etc. instead of a single longer trip to/from SYR or ROC.

Also, with respect to ALB, I believe AA had wanted to provide the DFW nonstops to ALB as well, but ALB was just out of the range for a nonstop on a CR7. (SYR and ROC were barely within the limits).

Now, will someone please explain to me while SYR and ROC get served by a 175 while the BGR-DFW flights get a 319?

Airlines are throwing a lot of capacity at Maine this summer.

TucsonDave wrote:

Now, will someone please explain to me while SYR and ROC get served by a 175 while the BGR-DFW flights get a 319?

Higher demand is the most plausible reason.

However, isn't BGR more prone to bad weather? They have CATIII capability on runway 15.

Mainline A319s are CATII/III capable. Usually regional carriers don't bother with CATIII. Could be a reason. If it's not demand or weather related, maybe it's scope limits. At over 3 hr, BGR-DFW is at the limits of what regionals usually operate.

asuflyer wrote:

Over 10 diversions today at SYR due to weather. The main runway 10/28 just started a resurfacing project. Runway 15/33 is not ILS equipped, RNAV is out of service and weather was below minimums. Doesn't seem like the airlines were well informed in advance and airline ops anticipated this given the number of diversions.

I find it odd that of all the times to close the main runway they'd do it when demand is starting to tick up, I also feel like they could've done this stuff when they closed it last year, however i don't make the decisions at the airport so I shouldn't complain.

Thenoflyzone wrote:

asuflyer wrote:

Over 10 diversions today at SYR due to weather. The main runway 10/28 just started a resurfacing project. Runway 15/33 is not ILS equipped, RNAV is out of service and weather was below minimums. Doesn't seem like the airlines were well informed in advance and airline ops anticipated this given the number of diversions.

Are you sure the RNAV was out of service? RNAV approaches are rarely out of service, unless there is a WAAS or RAIM outage for the area, which happens, but is rare. I don't see anything NOTAMed either.

What time were all those arrivals at? If they were mostly after 8pm, then yes, the weather was below minimums, even for the RNAV on 33.

6 of them were before 8, 6 of them were after 8. One of the diversions return flight to SYR got diverted as well. Ironic that the airport that is known for getting diversions had so many of its flights get diverted.

Midwestindy wrote:

SYR-DFW
https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-new ... l-airport/

If SYR-DFW does well i'm sure either AA would add ALB/ROC-DFW or have Southwest clap back with DAL to ALB/ROC/BUF

albspotter wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

SYR-DFW
https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-new ... l-airport/

If SYR-DFW does well i'm sure either AA would add ALB/ROC-DFW or have Southwest clap back with DAL to ALB/ROC/BUF

Definitely, very surprised SWA hasn’t added BUF-DAL seeing as BUF already has DFW service. ALB-DFW is definitely a possibility but I imagine it will depend on how well SYR-DFW does, definitely gonna be a lot of people driving to SYR from the Albany Area seeing as ALB-DFW is one of the most (if not the most) in demand route for Albany.

I was looking around on Indeed and LinkedIn and noticed that a couple of 3rd party contractors are hiring at ALB. I don't know if this means anything, but this could mean a new airline is coming to ALB, or a current airline is expanding. I also looked around at SYR and ROC, and found some other interesting airport positions. I'll keep my eyes open in the news, considering ALB just had a big Job Fair last week.

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

albspotter wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

SYR-DFW
https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-new ... l-airport/

If SYR-DFW does well i'm sure either AA would add ALB/ROC-DFW or have Southwest clap back with DAL to ALB/ROC/BUF

Definitely, very surprised SWA hasn’t added BUF-DAL seeing as BUF already has DFW service. ALB-DFW is definitely a possibility but I imagine it will depend on how well SYR-DFW does, definitely gonna be a lot of people driving to SYR from the Albany Area seeing as ALB-DFW is one of the most (if not the most) in demand route for Albany.

WN is not using their limited DAL service on flights to Upstate NY

usflyer msp wrote:

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

albspotter wrote:

If SYR-DFW does well i'm sure either AA would add ALB/ROC-DFW or have Southwest clap back with DAL to ALB/ROC/BUF

Definitely, very surprised SWA hasn’t added BUF-DAL seeing as BUF already has DFW service. ALB-DFW is definitely a possibility but I imagine it will depend on how well SYR-DFW does, definitely gonna be a lot of people driving to SYR from the Albany Area seeing as ALB-DFW is one of the most (if not the most) in demand route for Albany.

WN is not using their limited DAL service on flights to Upstate NY

Correct. Upstate stuff like BUF-BNA or ROC-MDW would happen before WN did anything to DAL, with its very limited resources there.

usflyer msp wrote:

WN is not using their limited DAL service on flights to Upstate NY

I agree with your point, even though WN has more room at DAL to add more flights with WN operating fewer daily departures out of DAL in Summer 2021 than it did prior to the COVID-19 pandemic with WN scheduled to operate 177 daily departures out of DAL in Summer 2021 compared to the 195 daily departures that WN was operating out of DAL prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

There are some markets not currently served nonstop from DAL that have stronger demand to the DFW/DAL market than BUF, ROC, or ALB.

While BUF was one of the top destinations that passengers were connecting to from DAL prior to AA re-adding BUF-DFW nonstop service, there are fewer passengers connecting to DAL on WN from BUF after AA re-added BUF-DFW nonstop service. The COVID-19 pandemic has also weakened demand for service to DAL from BUF.

I also probably would not expect WN to add nonstop service to DAL from a market that doesn't have nonstop service to DFW on AA, and both ROC and ALB currently lack nonstop service to DFW on AA.

albspotter wrote:

I was looking around on Indeed and LinkedIn and noticed that a couple of 3rd party contractors are hiring at ALB. I don't know if this means anything, but this could mean a new airline is coming to ALB, or a current airline is expanding. I also looked around at SYR and ROC, and found some other interesting airport positions. I'll keep my eyes open in the news, considering ALB just had a big Job Fair last week.

What positions, if you don't mind me asking.

Another round of diversions in progress for KSYR happening right now.

Weather right now as of 2330 5/2
KSYR 030254Z 10005KT 1/4SM FG VV002 10/09 A2985 RMK AO2 SLP105 T01000089 50001 RVRNO $

albspotter wrote:

I was looking around on Indeed and LinkedIn and noticed that a couple of 3rd party contractors are hiring at ALB. I don't know if this means anything, but this could mean a new airline is coming to ALB, or a current airline is expanding. I also looked around at SYR and ROC, and found some other interesting airport positions. I'll keep my eyes open in the news, considering ALB just had a big Job Fair last week.

99% of the contractors hiring right now are trying to backfill positions from people who were recalled back to work but decided not to come back, and with the schedule increases from all carriers due to demand, they need people ASAP. It’s a bad time to be a contractor, but a great opportunity if you’re looking for a job. It’s the same at SYR and ROC - from what I’ve seen. Not sure of other airports but I’d imagine this is a common trend right now.

aeroc wrote:

Another round of diversions in progress for KSYR happening right now.

Weather right now as of 2330 5/2
KSYR 030254Z 10005KT 1/4SM FG VV002 10/09 A2985 RMK AO2 SLP105 T01000089 50001 RVRNO $

Yikes - it looks like UA4385 diverted to ROC at 21:33, left for SYR at 22:40, and diverted back to ROC at 23:56. Now showing rescheduled for a 10:45am departure. Looks like UA put the aircraft at B4 for the night.

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

albspotter wrote:

I was looking around on Indeed and LinkedIn and noticed that a couple of 3rd party contractors are hiring at ALB. I don't know if this means anything, but this could mean a new airline is coming to ALB, or a current airline is expanding. I also looked around at SYR and ROC, and found some other interesting airport positions. I'll keep my eyes open in the news, considering ALB just had a big Job Fair last week.

What positions, if you don't mind me asking.

Just airport board members, such as airport planner, managers, etc.

I haven't posted in the Upstate thread for awhile, and see that much of the usual bickering continues. As ROCDLFAN said, if you care about an airport, post about it! You're likely to know stuff about your airport, and you can educate others about it.

If you want to learn about an Upstate NY airport and are on Facebook, you might look up the "Airport History Lounge" page and apply to join. (If you do so, please answer the four required questions!!). We try to cover any airport that has had commercial service. Just today, I just added a postcard of GFL Glens Falls with some airport history information I looked up.

Here's a nice photo essay on BUF's soon-to-be-completed $80 million expansion. Good work NFTA!

https://buffalonews.com/news/local/snea ... 32dc0.html

Jim

Another huge round of SYR diversions,
FX1964 EWR-SYR diverted to ALB, on ALB-SYR diverted to BUF
5X1054 SDF-SYR diverted to ALB
FX1442 MEM-SYR diverted to PIT
FX1767 IND-SYR diverted to ALB
5X1132 BUF-SYR diverted to PIT
5X1134 Originally ALB-SYR diverted to PIT, PIT-SYR and returned to PIT
AA4922 CLT-SYR diverted to ROC
AA6268 PHL-SYR diverted to ITH
AA6035 ORD-SYR diverted to ITH
DL4695 DTW-SYR diverted to ROC
DL659 ATL-SYR diverted to ROC
Thats 20+ diversions in a week. Very thankful that our Upstate sister airports (and PIT) were able to accomodate these diversions. I guess this is what happens when you close your ILS runway during a season where rain and wind storms are more common. At least we'll finally get a fresh new runway and new signage.

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

Another huge round of SYR diversions,
FX1964 EWR-SYR diverted to ALB, on ALB-SYR diverted to BUF
5X1054 SDF-SYR diverted to ALB
FX1442 MEM-SYR diverted to PIT
FX1767 IND-SYR diverted to ALB
5X1132 BUF-SYR diverted to PIT
5X1134 Originally ALB-SYR diverted to PIT, PIT-SYR and returned to PIT
AA4922 CLT-SYR diverted to ROC
AA6268 PHL-SYR diverted to ITH
AA6035 ORD-SYR diverted to ITH
DL4695 DTW-SYR diverted to ROC
DL659 ATL-SYR diverted to ROC
Thats 20+ diversions in a week. Very thankful that our Upstate sister airports (and PIT) were able to accomodate these diversions. I guess this is what happens when you close your ILS runway during a season where rain and wind storms are more common. At least we'll finally get a fresh new runway and new signage.

Does anyone know when the runway work is scheduled to be completed? It seems unfortunate timing, because I don't think Fog is that common around here. The first day that diversions were mentioned here, I had driven in fog on the way to and from work in Morrisville. Is this a training/certification issue? Is there any way that crews with different certifications would be able to land without ILS, where these commuter flights had to divert? If so, and if it's not going to be going on for the next 6 months, it seems like it would have been good for them to upgauge to mainline in the short term, but with the FX and 5X diversions, maybe I'm wrong.

cosyr wrote:

Does anyone know when the runway work is scheduled to be completed? It seems unfortunate timing, because I don't think Fog is that common around here. The first day that diversions were mentioned here, I had driven in fog on the way to and from work in Morrisville. Is this a training/certification issue? Is there any way that crews with different certifications would be able to land without ILS, where these commuter flights had to divert? If so, and if it's not going to be going on for the next 6 months, it seems like it would have been good for them to upgauge to mainline in the short term, but with the FX and 5X diversions, maybe I'm wrong.

The NOTAM shows the runway will be closed through August 10, and the ILS will be unusable through September 28. The GPS approaches have three different landing minimums, depending on onboard equipment and certification. I don't think your mainline argument necessarily holds water.

The other option would have been to close August 1 and hope it gets done before Thanksgiving (and snow), but you wouldn't have the ILS for Thanksgiving.

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

albspotter wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

SYR-DFW
https://www.localsyr.com/news/local-new ... l-airport/

If SYR-DFW does well i'm sure either AA would add ALB/ROC-DFW or have Southwest clap back with DAL to ALB/ROC/BUF

Definitely, very surprised SWA hasn’t added BUF-DAL seeing as BUF already has DFW service. ALB-DFW is definitely a possibility but I imagine it will depend on how well SYR-DFW does, definitely gonna be a lot of people driving to SYR from the Albany Area seeing as ALB-DFW is one of the most (if not the most) in demand route for Albany.

I highly doubt that people from the Capital Region will drive all the way to SYR just to get on a once daily nonstop to DFW that departs at 7AM. The distance from Downtown Albany to SYR is roughly the same distance as Downtown Albany to EWR (both roughly 2h25m, you can make it to SYR in about 2h10m). BOS is only ten minutes further than EWR (2h35m).

Growing up in ALB, people (my family included) would drive to BOS/EWR/YSWF (SWF specifically as it had South Florida nonstops on FL/B6 before ALB did) all the time, but I've never heard of anyone driving to SYR. I have known people to fly to YUL as well to catch nonstops to Europe.

ALB traffic has always fascinated me, not just because I am originally from there, but its service is somewhat of an anomaly. It's wealth and per capita income are the highest of any metro area outside of NYC, and it is the closest airport to the vacation spots in the Adirondacks and Saratoga Springs, where there is a lot of wealth in particular. The Capital District just passed the Rochester CSA as the third largest metro area in the state, and I believe the Capital District will likely pass Buffalo CSA in terms of population within the next 10-15 years. Then again, I suppose Saratoga Springs serves a particular market that isn't likely to fly in to visit (NYC) and the Adirondacks for some reason are almost unheard of outside of the Northeast, which I have found somewhat bizarre given the plethora of awesome activities and ski resorts that rival their West Coast rivals (Whiteface in particular).

Of course, Buffalo will always have more service due to its location on the Canadian border.

I'm not saying I am surprised ALB isn't a much larger airport, but I am somewhat surprised there isn't service to DFW for example at this point. I know years ago ALB-LAS was once WN's most profitable routes over 2000 miles (there was an old thread from about 2010 or so that had the data) but I find it interesting now WN can't seem to make ALB-West of the Mississippi routes work. DEN seems to come and go with seasonality.

We'll never know for sure, but I suppose that its proximity to NYC/BOS/BDL play a part. SYR/ROC/BUF don't really have a domestic hub airport within such close proximity. When I was a kid, whenever we would travel to the West Coast or internationally, we would nearly always drive down to NYC/BOS to fly a nonstop. Even with the 2.5 hour drive, driving to say EWR was always faster than flying somewhere from ALB and connecting.

MO11 wrote:

cosyr wrote:

Does anyone know when the runway work is scheduled to be completed? It seems unfortunate timing, because I don't think Fog is that common around here. The first day that diversions were mentioned here, I had driven in fog on the way to and from work in Morrisville. Is this a training/certification issue? Is there any way that crews with different certifications would be able to land without ILS, where these commuter flights had to divert? If so, and if it's not going to be going on for the next 6 months, it seems like it would have been good for them to upgauge to mainline in the short term, but with the FX and 5X diversions, maybe I'm wrong.

The NOTAM shows the runway will be closed through August 10, and the ILS will be unusable through September 28. The GPS approaches have three different landing minimums, depending on onboard equipment and certification. I don't think your mainline argument necessarily holds water.

The other option would have been to close August 1 and hope it gets done before Thanksgiving (and snow), but you wouldn't have the ILS for Thanksgiving.

Well, then we better hope that this is a Spring weather type problem. Overcast/fog tends to be less of an issue in the summer. Any idea why the ILS will not be useable for a month after the runway is finished?

I don't know the scope of the runway work. If either antenna had to be relocated and/or touchdown zone moved, then the ILS has to be recommissioned. The NOTAM says the approach lights, PAPI, VASI, and RVR will also be out until September 28. Maybe all of the ILS work will take place after the runway construction is complete.

MO11 wrote:

I don't know the scope of the runway work. If either antenna had to be relocated and/or touchdown zone moved, then the ILS has to be recommissioned. The NOTAM says the approach lights, PAPI, VASI, and RVR will also be out until September 28. Maybe all of the ILS work will take place after the runway construction is complete.

They are also working on Signage, but I wouldn’t think the ILS would count as Signage

ROCDLFAN--do we know what gate Frontier will be using at ROC?

SYR folks--sorry about your runway work diversion issues. Runway work stinks.

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

ROCDLFAN--do we know what gate Frontier will be using at ROC?

SYR folks--sorry about your runway work diversion issues. Runway work stinks.

F9 is leasing A3 as well as an Ops area below the wing. Ticket counter will be taking up all 4 podiums between WN and UA. It’s funny - no signage yet, but there is a bag sizers sitting at the counter as well as one at the gate.

Is F9 really brining in their own staffing for a 3x week operation? If so that would lead me to believe they anticipate adding flights in the future. On the other hand B6 only has one flight a day now (hopefully that will improve) and I'm guessing they still have their own staff in ROC.

Allegiant has about the same amount of flights and I think Delta handles them correct? I always see them at B7 or B9.

aeroc wrote:

Is F9 really brining in their own staffing for a 3x week operation? If so that would lead me to believe they anticipate adding flights in the future. On the other hand B6 only has one flight a day now (hopefully that will improve) and I'm guessing they still have their own staff in ROC.

Allegiant has about the same amount of flights and I think Delta handles them correct? I always see them at B7 or B9.

B6 contracted out ROC, SYR and ALB due to the pandemic in October. G4 is handled by AvFlight and their technically using B9, but it’s been down on and off for the last 6 months so occasionally they’ll use 7. AvFlight was also awarded the F9 contract. I believe DGS handles F9 in SYR, I’m not sure who handles them in ALB. Possibly PrimeFlight or DGS? I know PrimeFlight handles B6 in ROC, F9 and UA in BUF.

ROCDLFAN wrote:

aeroc wrote:

Is F9 really brining in their own staffing for a 3x week operation? If so that would lead me to believe they anticipate adding flights in the future. On the other hand B6 only has one flight a day now (hopefully that will improve) and I'm guessing they still have their own staff in ROC.

Allegiant has about the same amount of flights and I think Delta handles them correct? I always see them at B7 or B9.

B6 contracted out ROC, SYR and ALB due to the pandemic in October. G4 is handled by AvFlight and their technically using B9, but it’s been down on and off for the last 6 months so occasionally they’ll use 7. AvFlight was also awarded the F9 contract. I believe DGS handles F9 in SYR, I’m not sure who handles them in ALB. Possibly PrimeFlight or DGS? I know PrimeFlight handles B6 in ROC, F9 and UA in BUF.

I had a flight who used to ramp for F9 and he told me they used Quickflight or something like that.

albspotter wrote:

ROCDLFAN wrote:

aeroc wrote:

Is F9 really brining in their own staffing for a 3x week operation? If so that would lead me to believe they anticipate adding flights in the future. On the other hand B6 only has one flight a day now (hopefully that will improve) and I'm guessing they still have their own staff in ROC.

Allegiant has about the same amount of flights and I think Delta handles them correct? I always see them at B7 or B9.

B6 contracted out ROC, SYR and ALB due to the pandemic in October. G4 is handled by AvFlight and their technically using B9, but it’s been down on and off for the last 6 months so occasionally they’ll use 7. AvFlight was also awarded the F9 contract. I believe DGS handles F9 in SYR, I’m not sure who handles them in ALB. Possibly PrimeFlight or DGS? I know PrimeFlight handles B6 in ROC, F9 and UA in BUF.

I had a flight who used to ramp for F9 and he told me they used Quickflight or something like that.

I believe quickflight was taken over (or bought maybe?) by AvFlight a couple months ago.

ROCDLFAN wrote:

aeroc wrote:

Is F9 really brining in their own staffing for a 3x week operation? If so that would lead me to believe they anticipate adding flights in the future. On the other hand B6 only has one flight a day now (hopefully that will improve) and I'm guessing they still have their own staff in ROC.

Allegiant has about the same amount of flights and I think Delta handles them correct? I always see them at B7 or B9.

B6 contracted out ROC, SYR and ALB due to the pandemic in October. G4 is handled by AvFlight and their technically using B9, but it’s been down on and off for the last 6 months so occasionally they’ll use 7. AvFlight was also awarded the F9 contract. I believe DGS handles F9 in SYR, I’m not sure who handles them in ALB. Possibly PrimeFlight or DGS? I know PrimeFlight handles B6 in ROC, F9 and UA in BUF.

Such a shame to see all these airlines getting contracted out but I understand money is king and anyway to save a penny is all that matters.

I can't imagine working for an airline and not getting the benefit of standby free flights that goes with it. I used to work for AA in ROC for several years and B6 for a short time. Back then all the airlines had their own employees above and below the wing. It was a great community and I had a lot of fun only problem I had is once you hit the ceiling in pay that's it, nowhere else to go except management or move to a hub. Management jobs didn't open up very often and I didn't like the idea of moving to ORD/DFW/MIA.

Are there any airlines in ROC that still have employees above and below the wing or was B6 the last one before the pandemic hit?

albspotter wrote:

ROCDLFAN wrote:

aeroc wrote:

Is F9 really brining in their own staffing for a 3x week operation? If so that would lead me to believe they anticipate adding flights in the future. On the other hand B6 only has one flight a day now (hopefully that will improve) and I'm guessing they still have their own staff in ROC.

Allegiant has about the same amount of flights and I think Delta handles them correct? I always see them at B7 or B9.

B6 contracted out ROC, SYR and ALB due to the pandemic in October. G4 is handled by AvFlight and their technically using B9, but it’s been down on and off for the last 6 months so occasionally they’ll use 7. AvFlight was also awarded the F9 contract. I believe DGS handles F9 in SYR, I’m not sure who handles them in ALB. Possibly PrimeFlight or DGS? I know PrimeFlight handles B6 in ROC, F9 and UA in BUF.

I had a flight who used to ramp for F9 and he told me they used Quickflight or something like that.

Correction: I went spotting yesterday and discovered JetBlue actually uses GAT and Frontier uses DGS. However the one of the job listings is for WFS, so either Allegiant uses them, a new airline is coming, or an airline is contracting to a different company. Btw Southwest, American, Delta, and United all use first party ramp equipment.

albspotter wrote:

albspotter wrote:

ROCDLFAN wrote:

B6 contracted out ROC, SYR and ALB due to the pandemic in October. G4 is handled by AvFlight and their technically using B9, but it’s been down on and off for the last 6 months so occasionally they’ll use 7. AvFlight was also awarded the F9 contract. I believe DGS handles F9 in SYR, I’m not sure who handles them in ALB. Possibly PrimeFlight or DGS? I know PrimeFlight handles B6 in ROC, F9 and UA in BUF.

I had a flight who used to ramp for F9 and he told me they used Quickflight or something like that.

Correction: I went spotting yesterday and discovered JetBlue actually uses GAT and Frontier uses DGS. However the one of the job listings is for WFS, so either Allegiant uses them, a new airline is coming, or an airline is contracting to a different company. Btw Southwest, American, Delta, and United all use first party ramp equipment.

I know for a fact DL uses DGS for ramp in ALB - G4 used WFS for a bunch of stations so they could very well have them for contract in ALB.

All ramp is contracted at ROC at this point, UA is UGE Above and Below, DL is DGS above and below, B6 is PrimeFlight Above and Below, American is split upstairs between AA and MQ but MQ has the ramp, WN is mainline above and JetStream below, and F9 and G4 are both AvFlight for above and below.

ROCDLFAN wrote:

I know for a fact DL uses DGS for ramp in ALB - G4 used WFS for a bunch of stations so they could very well have them for contract in ALB.
All ramp is contracted at ROC at this point, UA is UGE Above and Below, DL is DGS above and below, B6 is PrimeFlight Above and Below, American is split upstairs between AA and MQ but MQ has the ramp, WN is mainline above and JetStream below, and F9 and G4 are both AvFlight for above and below.

A bit off topic, but... it amazes me the degree to which customers have no idea that the customer service and ramp agents checking them in, managing the boarding process, loading their luggage, and servicing their aircraft often aren't even employees of the airline they're flying, and in many cases, are paid at or close to minimum wage with few or no benefits. Serious public education effort needs to happen, IMO.

YQBexYHZBGM wrote:

ROCDLFAN wrote:

I know for a fact DL uses DGS for ramp in ALB - G4 used WFS for a bunch of stations so they could very well have them for contract in ALB.
All ramp is contracted at ROC at this point, UA is UGE Above and Below, DL is DGS above and below, B6 is PrimeFlight Above and Below, American is split upstairs between AA and MQ but MQ has the ramp, WN is mainline above and JetStream below, and F9 and G4 are both AvFlight for above and below.

A bit off topic, but... it amazes me the degree to which customers have no idea that the customer service and ramp agents checking them in, managing the boarding process, loading their luggage, and servicing their aircraft often aren't even employees of the airline they're flying, and in many cases, are paid at or close to minimum wage with few or no benefits. Serious public education effort needs to happen, IMO.

And somehow they still act more like airline employees and provide better service than the airport employees that do most of these functions at British airports. I hate checking in a British airports when it is so painfully obvious that that worker couldn't care less which airline you are flying on, or their specific policies, much less which class of service or status you have.

cosyr wrote:

YQBexYHZBGM wrote:

ROCDLFAN wrote:

I know for a fact DL uses DGS for ramp in ALB - G4 used WFS for a bunch of stations so they could very well have them for contract in ALB.
All ramp is contracted at ROC at this point, UA is UGE Above and Below, DL is DGS above and below, B6 is PrimeFlight Above and Below, American is split upstairs between AA and MQ but MQ has the ramp, WN is mainline above and JetStream below, and F9 and G4 are both AvFlight for above and below.

A bit off topic, but... it amazes me the degree to which customers have no idea that the customer service and ramp agents checking them in, managing the boarding process, loading their luggage, and servicing their aircraft often aren't even employees of the airline they're flying, and in many cases, are paid at or close to minimum wage with few or no benefits. Serious public education effort needs to happen, IMO.

And somehow they still act more like airline employees and provide better service than the airport employees that do most of these functions at British airports. I hate checking in a British airports when it is so painfully obvious that that worker couldn't care less which airline you are flying on, or their specific policies, much less which class of service or status you have.

I can't speak for any of the LCCs or WN, but I guess the difference between European carriers and say AA or DL is that DGS and Piedmont/MQ are both wholly-owned subsidiaries and thus AA/DL have greater "quality control" and oversight of DGS/MQ/PT employees than say BA of an outstation employee at BEY.

A good number of DGS/MQ/PT employees at larger outstations in the US, like ALB/ROC used to be full-fledged mainline employees that simply were rehired (and took a paycut) at the subsidiary when the station shifted from mainline to DGS/MQ/PT.

I can't speak of DGS, but I know PT/MQ provide essentially the same travel benefits to their employees as mainline AA. Outstation workers at European airports don't get those benefits.

USAirALB wrote:

cosyr wrote:

YQBexYHZBGM wrote:

A bit off topic, but... it amazes me the degree to which customers have no idea that the customer service and ramp agents checking them in, managing the boarding process, loading their luggage, and servicing their aircraft often aren't even employees of the airline they're flying, and in many cases, are paid at or close to minimum wage with few or no benefits. Serious public education effort needs to happen, IMO.

And somehow they still act more like airline employees and provide better service than the airport employees that do most of these functions at British airports. I hate checking in a British airports when it is so painfully obvious that that worker couldn't care less which airline you are flying on, or their specific policies, much less which class of service or status you have.

I can't speak for any of the LCCs or WN, but I guess the difference between European carriers and say AA or DL is that DGS and Piedmont/MQ are both wholly-owned subsidiaries and thus AA/DL have greater "quality control" and oversight of DGS/MQ/PT employees than say BA of an outstation employee at BEY.

A good number of DGS/MQ/PT employees at larger outstations in the US, like ALB/ROC used to be full-fledged mainline employees that simply were rehired (and took a paycut) at the subsidiary when the station shifted from mainline to DGS/MQ/PT.

I can't speak of DGS, but I know PT/MQ provide essentially the same travel benefits to their employees as mainline AA. Outstation workers at European airports don't get those benefits.

Again this is going back a over a decade but when Delta pulled (mainline employees) out of ROC around 2003/04 I believe Comair first took over all functions. They maintained all the benefits that regular Delta employees maintained because of their affiliation with Delta just like MQ/PT does with American. However, Comair folded in 2012 and I'm not 100% sure who filled the gap before DGS took over since Wikipedia mentions DGS wasn't formed until 2018. I'm also going to guess DGS don't get flight benefits because Wikipedia states that:

"DAL Global Services, LLC, doing business as Delta Global Services (DGS), was an aviation ground handling services provider, formed late 2018, after Delta Air Lines sold a stake of its subsidiary, DAL Global Services, to Argenbright Holdings I LLC. DGS is jointly owned by Argenbright, with a 51 percent stake, and Delta, with a 49 percent stake. ERMC Aviation Services is owned by Frank A. Argenbright, founder of Argenbright Security.

In February 2020, the company rebranded as Unifi.[1] "

So Delta isn't the controlling stake in the company so probably doesn't have to offer its benefits such as flight but I don't know that for sure.

Knowing from experience I can attest that at least up to 2010 MQ employees were on the same level as AA employees when it came to personnel travel. Your spot in the standby que was based on your check-in time only and not company affiliation.

I'm happy to hear that AA/MQ employees still exist in ROC. Hopefully that holds true for ALB/BUF/SYR as well. I would think it would due to the merger with USairways since this made the employee and flight pool much larger with the combined operations.

aeroc wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

cosyr wrote:

And somehow they still act more like airline employees and provide better service than the airport employees that do most of these functions at British airports. I hate checking in a British airports when it is so painfully obvious that that worker couldn't care less which airline you are flying on, or their specific policies, much less which class of service or status you have.

I can't speak for any of the LCCs or WN, but I guess the difference between European carriers and say AA or DL is that DGS and Piedmont/MQ are both wholly-owned subsidiaries and thus AA/DL have greater "quality control" and oversight of DGS/MQ/PT employees than say BA of an outstation employee at BEY.

A good number of DGS/MQ/PT employees at larger outstations in the US, like ALB/ROC used to be full-fledged mainline employees that simply were rehired (and took a paycut) at the subsidiary when the station shifted from mainline to DGS/MQ/PT.

I can't speak of DGS, but I know PT/MQ provide essentially the same travel benefits to their employees as mainline AA. Outstation workers at European airports don't get those benefits.

Again this is going back a over a decade but when Delta pulled (mainline employees) out of ROC around 2003/04 I believe Comair first took over all functions. They maintained all the benefits that regular Delta employees maintained because of their affiliation with Delta just like MQ/PT does with American. However, Comair folded in 2012 and I'm not 100% sure who filled the gap before DGS took over since Wikipedia mentions DGS wasn't formed until 2018. I'm also going to guess DGS don't get flight benefits because Wikipedia states that:

"DAL Global Services, LLC, doing business as Delta Global Services (DGS), was an aviation ground handling services provider, formed late 2018, after Delta Air Lines sold a stake of its subsidiary, DAL Global Services, to Argenbright Holdings I LLC. DGS is jointly owned by Argenbright, with a 51 percent stake, and Delta, with a 49 percent stake. ERMC Aviation Services is owned by Frank A. Argenbright, founder of Argenbright Security.

In February 2020, the company rebranded as Unifi.[1] "

So Delta isn't the controlling stake in the company so probably doesn't have to offer its benefits such as flight but I don't know that for sure.

Knowing from experience I can attest that at least up to 2010 MQ employees were on the same level as AA employees when it came to personnel travel. Your spot in the standby que was based on your check-in time only and not company affiliation.

I'm happy to hear that AA/MQ employees still exist in ROC. Hopefully that holds true for ALB/BUF/SYR as well. I would think it would due to the merger with USairways since this made the employee and flight pool much larger with the combined operations.

Currently DGS/Unifi employees hired after I believe 12/27/18 (or around that timeframe) fly S4 priority with DOH seniority as well as paying yield fare. DGS employees hired before that date have maintained their S3C status but pay imputed income tax. At least at ROC/BUF, it went from Mainline->Comair->Regional Elite->DGS/Unifi. Pre-merger NWA was Mesaba in ROC, and I can’t for the life of me remember who had their contract in BUF. I believe SYR was Air Wisconsin?

At their peak post-merger. AA(US)/MQ was the largest airline employee-wise at ROC. A lot of the legacy US people took the retirement package from COVID, and their down to the final few, which is unfortunate. The US people had been at ROC some spanning back five decades, and were a wealth of information for anyone that ever had any questions on the airports history and what it was like decades ago.

ROCDLFAN wrote:

At their peak post-merger. AA(US)/MQ was the largest airline employee-wise at ROC. A lot of the legacy US people took the retirement package from COVID, and their down to the final few, which is unfortunate. The US people had been at ROC some spanning back five decades, and were a wealth of information for anyone that ever had any questions on the airports history and what it was like decades ago.

Very well said about the US Legacy employees. I had the pleasure of knowing and talking with a few of them over the years and like you said they had a ton of history and knowledge to share if you wanted to listen and learn. They would try to help you out when flights canceled or bags went missing without hesitation. It is unfortunate that their time is almost up. I also had the pleasure of working with several senior American employees who took the time and had the patience to share their knowledge of how things worked especially Sabre (reservation/operations computer system). The stories they would tell about the old airport and older jets like the DC10/707/727 were fascinating and always made me wish I could have lived it even if it was only for a day. Must have been a sight to behold......seeing a DC10 pulling up to the jetway in ROC.

I don’t remember what year it was, but I flew IAH-DFW-SYR on the CRJ. I think at that time I read something about in being the longest RJ flight in the US. I have lived in Houston for 42 years now, and the best I ever got was on US AIR flying IAH-PIT-SYR, with just a stop at PIT and staying on the same plane. Having family still in the area I sure would have liked to seen a non stop from IAH, which I know will never happen. Hopefully this route will last! Just thinking about all the airlines and aircraft in the last 42 years I have flown to SYR from IAH and back. And the good old days with mainline flights from several airlines to SYR.

aeroc wrote:

The stories they would tell about the old airport and older jets like the DC10/707/727 were fascinating and always made me wish I could have lived it even if it was only for a day. Must have been a sight to behold......seeing a DC10 pulling up to the jetway in ROC.

Indeed. I'm very sorry that I didn't get to interview any of them. I would very much like to hear more about the DC-10 and 707 days.

In 1973, a DC-10 would not have used a jetway at ROC, as the first jetway was installed (by American!) in January 1977 after scheduled DC-10 services ended. So the widebody presumably used airstairs. I very barely remember seeing the one that went off the runway in I think the winter of 1972-1973, after it had been taken to the terminal. We went down to near the south end of 4-22 where it had gone off, and it had already been (perhaps towed?) to the terminal.

Jim

I guess IAD-SYR is doing well, UA is doing some mainline flights on IAD-SYR this week. Albeit it for two days. I wonder why, E-145XR to A320/737 is a bit of a jump for a route that’s only flown once or twice a day.