PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Jshank83 · Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:28 am

AaronPGH wrote:
Also have noticed the lack of Breeze marketing. But to make it worse, aren't all tickets sold only direct via their app? I don't understand how they expect Western PA folks to find out about them.

They show up on google flights now.

AaronPGH · Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:18 am

Ahhh. Well that helps then.

PITFlyer330 · Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:09 am

Jshank83 wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
Also have noticed the lack of Breeze marketing. But to make it worse, aren't all tickets sold only direct via their app? I don't understand how they expect Western PA folks to find out about them.

They show up on google flights now.

they do but they show up as mexicana since they use the mx iata code

Jshank83 · Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:28 pm

PITFlyer330 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
Also have noticed the lack of Breeze marketing. But to make it worse, aren't all tickets sold only direct via their app? I don't understand how they expect Western PA folks to find out about them.

They show up on google flights now.

they do but they show up as mexicana since they use the mx iata code

Says Breeze for me. They must have fixed whatever issue it had originally

flyPIT · Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:43 pm

Two weeks in a row now for the MAS Air flight from FRA. Still trying to get more info on these flights.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAA ... /EDDF/KPIT

WN has finally reinstated PIT-DAL/HOU this month. Another week showing as they are only 1x weekly throughout the summer going in to the placeholder schedules.

Flaps · Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:13 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Two weeks in a row now for the MAS Air flight from FRA. Still trying to get more info on these flights.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAA ... /EDDF/KPIT

WN has finally reinstated PIT-DAL/HOU this month. Another week showing as they are only 1x weekly throughout the summer going in to the placeholder schedules.

MAS is just a fuel stop. Only required when FRA-MEX load precludes a non-stop. They use other cities for this stop too as loads/routings dictate. They like PIT because they can get a quick turn at a good price.

flyPIT · Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:18 pm

Ok thanks.

flyPIT · Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:57 pm

Here comes the first Qatar Airways flight from Singapore. It is operating via Nagoya NGO.

https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/QTR8300

flyPIT · Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:31 pm

While WN, NK, and F9 invade MIA with service to all of our peer cities, PIT is actually losing B6 to both PBI and FLL. PIT is the only FLL route being cut. More evidence PITs continued comparatively lackluster performance isn’t about our technology and higher Ed industry.

PghMath · Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:46 pm

flyPIT wrote:
While WN, NK, and F9 invade MIA with service to all of our peer cities, PIT is actually losing B6 to both PBI and FLL. PIT is the only FLL route being cut. More evidence PITs continued comparatively lackluster performance isn’t about our technology and higher Ed industry.

This is anecdotal of course but I love B6, been using them to BOS exclusively for business & leisure for well over a decade (back pre-pandemic when business travel was permitted...) But I tried desperately to use them this spring twice to FLL and it just couldn't ever work. Not only was pricing not competitive and frankly unjustifiable compared to the other nonstop options, but the schedule was extremely limited/limiting.

Terrible to lose service, but at some point there has to be a threshold for an airline where increased frequency will provided increased returns/revenues.

CaptainMidnight · Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:20 pm

I live near AGC and nearly every morning I hear a turboprop take off from there around 12:30AM-1:00AM, usually I am too tired to check the flight tracking apps to see what it is. This morning I opened FlightAware and its this Quest Diagnostics flight: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/LBQ ... /KAGC/KHEF

Apparently flies from AGC-HEF in a PC12 early every morning. It doesn't stay on the ground in HEF long, today it was just 14 minutes before it took off for RDG. So is this taking all the gathered blood work samples from Quest locations in the area from the prior day and delivering them to a Quest processing lab in the Manassas area so they are resulted ASAP? Just curious.

Interesting earlier in the night on Monday it made a whopping 64 mile, 17 min. journey from ROC-IAG.

PITFlyer330 · Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:26 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Here comes the first Qatar Airways flight from Singapore. It is operating via Nagoya NGO.

https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/QTR8300

And then off to miami

flyPIT · Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:23 pm

CaptainMidnight wrote:
I live near AGC and nearly every morning I hear a turboprop take off from there around 12:30AM-1:00AM, usually I am too tired to check the flight tracking apps to see what it is. This morning I opened FlightAware and its this Quest Diagnostics flight: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/LBQ ... /KAGC/KHEF

Apparently flies from AGC-HEF in a PC12 early every morning. It doesn't stay on the ground in HEF long, today it was just 14 minutes before it took off for RDG. So is this taking all the gathered blood work samples from Quest locations in the area from the prior day and delivering them to a Quest processing lab in the Manassas area so they are resulted ASAP? Just curious.

Interesting earlier in the night on Monday it made a whopping 64 mile, 17 min. journey from ROC-IAG.

I'm not sure if the samples are coming or going or both, but Quest has been doing a variation of that run for decades now. Back in the paper check days there used to be a mini-sort going on at AGC around midnight with about 4 piston twins and a learjet from AirNet Express (formerly US Check) and 2 MU-2s from a company called Epps Aviation. Quest would be there too with a Cessna 310. The check sort was interesting to say the least. The 5 or 6 props would come in from CRW, BUF, RIC with the learjet coming in from the main CMH hub. The jet would sit there with the right engine running while it was unloaded and loaded. The bags of checks were swapped amongst the aircraft and all departed. During light winds there would be opposite direction takeoffs... the east bounds off 10 and west bounds of 28. This all happened in a 20-30 minute period. I remember thinking how it would suck living right next to that airport. Great experience for beginning professional pilots, including yours truly.

PITFlyer330 wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
Here comes the first Qatar Airways flight from Singapore. It is operating via Nagoya NGO.

https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/QTR8300

And then off to miami

With a different flight number so I assume it was completely offloaded in PIT then ferried to MIA? Too bad they can't quick change that thing back to a pax version and wet lease 100 seats each to WN, F9, and NK for 2x weekly service to MIA.

flyPIT · Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:34 pm

Somewhat interesting visitor today in the form of a Boeing BBJ belonging to Hyundai Motors of S. Korea.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/HL8 ... /KBOS/KPIT

CaptainMidnight · Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:57 pm

flyPIT wrote:
CaptainMidnight wrote:
I live near AGC and nearly every morning I hear a turboprop take off from there around 12:30AM-1:00AM, usually I am too tired to check the flight tracking apps to see what it is. This morning I opened FlightAware and its this Quest Diagnostics flight: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/LBQ ... /KAGC/KHEF

Apparently flies from AGC-HEF in a PC12 early every morning. It doesn't stay on the ground in HEF long, today it was just 14 minutes before it took off for RDG. So is this taking all the gathered blood work samples from Quest locations in the area from the prior day and delivering them to a Quest processing lab in the Manassas area so they are resulted ASAP? Just curious.

Interesting earlier in the night on Monday it made a whopping 64 mile, 17 min. journey from ROC-IAG.

I'm not sure if the samples are coming or going or both, but Quest has been doing a variation of that run for decades now. Back in the paper check days there used to be a mini-sort going on at AGC around midnight with about 4 piston twins and a learjet from AirNet Express (formerly US Check) and 2 MU-2s from a company called Epps Aviation. Quest would be there too with a Cessna 310. The check sort was interesting to say the least. The 5 or 6 props would come in from CRW, BUF, RIC with the learjet coming in from the main CMH hub. The jet would sit there with the right engine running while it was unloaded and loaded. The bags of checks were swapped amongst the aircraft and all departed. During light winds there would be opposite direction takeoffs... the east bounds off 10 and west bounds of 28. This all happened in a 20-30 minute period. I remember thinking how it would suck living right next to that airport. Great experience for beginning professional pilots, including yours truly.

Cool history, thanks!

flyPIT · Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:50 pm

May numbers are out. Total passengers up 496%; this is 37% fewer than May 2019. Cargo up 13%.
https://flypittsburgh.com/wp-content/up ... Report.pdf

AaronPGH · Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:26 pm

Spotted the QR flight coming in north of Lawrenceville this afternoon while out on my bike. Really cool thing to look up and randomly see.

PITfall · Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:45 pm

https://www.post-gazette.com/business/d ... 2106180118

Article states that the ACAA is very close to an agreement with the airlines. Will be interesting to see if BA is included.

Anecdotal but I was at the airport last week and it was SLAMMED.

USAir707 · Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:56 am

Not really related to PIT, but AV related question. I was out at Round Hill Park (Elizabeth near Rt 51) and everyone at the park stopped and stared as a group of military helicopters flew one after another overhead. No idea where they were from or where they were going since AGC and PIT are a good ways away from there. Anyone?

flyPIT · Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:55 am

USAir707 wrote:
Not really related to PIT, but AV related question. I was out at Round Hill Park (Elizabeth near Rt 51) and everyone at the park stopped and stared as a group of military helicopters flew one after another overhead. No idea where they were from or where they were going since AGC and PIT are a good ways away from there. Anyone?

https://triblive.com/local/military-tra ... gh-region/

flyPIT · Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:58 pm

Sun Country will be adding to PIT's casino charter offerings to ACY with a new service on behalf of MGM:
https://www.casino.org/news/mgm-announc ... o-borgata/

Sun Country already does casino charters to Biloxi from PIT, and college sports charters, and scheduled cargo flights (for Amazon). Pretty much everything but their own scheduled passenger service so it would be great to see them added when things finally improve here.

At LBE, they too are picking up additional ACY flights, in the form of Do328jets operated by Ultimate Jet Charters on behalf of the Hard Rock Hotel.
https://www.casino.org/news/hard-rock-a ... e-in-july/

PITfall · Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:49 pm

https://twitter.com/PITairport/status/1 ... 79043?s=19

flyPIT · Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:02 am

The ACAA finally released some (crappy) renderings of Cargo 4:

Too bad they didn't provide an airside view. Set to open in 2024; not sure why this needs to take 3 years to build.

Flaps · Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:52 am

flyPIT wrote:
The ACAA finally released some (crappy) renderings of Cargo 4:

Too bad they didn't provide an airside view. Set to open in 2024; not sure why this needs to take 3 years to build.

Massive site preparation work. Most, if not all of that hill needs to be removed

flyPIT · Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:35 pm

Flaps wrote:
Massive site preparation work. Most, if not all of that hill needs to be removed

I get that. It's a hill, not the Rockies. 3 years seems very excessive; hopefully it's to finalize the design while talking to more potential users.

PITFlyer330 · Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:08 pm

So turkish announced Dallas and denver today. I selfishly want them to fly to PIT but maybe it will never happen. Could PIT ever get a middle east flight?

FLYKTPA · Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:25 pm

PITFlyer330 wrote:
So turkish announced Dallas and denver today. I selfishly want them to fly to PIT but maybe it will never happen. Could PIT ever get a middle east flight?

I wouldn’t say never in regard to air service development.

But there’s of course easily a dozen US cities who would get Turkish first. And seeing BA successfully serve PIT for at least a few years would be something Turkish and any other International carrier would want to see before seriously considering PIT.

The new Istanbul airport is massive and Turkish certainly has plans to fill it up!

PITFlyer330 · Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:51 pm

FLYKTPA wrote:
PITFlyer330 wrote:
So turkish announced Dallas and denver today. I selfishly want them to fly to PIT but maybe it will never happen. Could PIT ever get a middle east flight?

I wouldn’t say never in regard to air service development.

But there’s of course easily a dozen US cities who would get Turkish first. And seeing BA successfully serve PIT for at least a few years would be something Turkish and any other International carrier would want to see before seriously considering PIT.

The new Istanbul airport is massive and Turkish certainly has plans to fill it up!

very true

PITfall · Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:34 pm

PITFlyer330 wrote:
So turkish announced Dallas and denver today. I selfishly want them to fly to PIT but maybe it will never happen. Could PIT ever get a middle east flight?

I think we just need to focus on BA hopefully returning.

PITFlyer330 · Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:51 pm

PITfall wrote:
PITFlyer330 wrote:
So turkish announced Dallas and denver today. I selfishly want them to fly to PIT but maybe it will never happen. Could PIT ever get a middle east flight?

I think we just need to focus on BA hopefully returning.

haha yes, cant forget about them.

flyPIT · Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:50 pm

PITFlyer330 wrote:
So turkish announced Dallas and denver today. I selfishly want them to fly to PIT but maybe it will never happen. Could PIT ever get a middle east flight?

Far fetched as it sounds, 6 years ago PIT did have discussions at the highest levels of Qatar Airways about passenger service to Doha as a long term goal.
https://www.post-gazette.com/business/p ... 1505130224

As a delayed (thanks to the pandemic) long term goal I'd say the ACAA still has one of the ME3 and TK in their sights. Interesting development regarding TK is they are now better connected than the ME3 wrt connecting opportunities due to their new IST airport.

Much more likely is we would see Turkish Cargo, but we might have already missed the boat on that considering just a few weeks ago they launched a new service to nearby Columbus LCK:
https://www.turkishcargo.com.tr/en/news ... o-columbus

USAir707 · Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:39 pm

flyPIT wrote:
PITFlyer330 wrote:
So turkish announced Dallas and denver today. I selfishly want them to fly to PIT but maybe it will never happen. Could PIT ever get a middle east flight?

Far fetched as it sounds, 6 years ago PIT did have discussions at the highest levels of Qatar Airways about passenger service to Doha as a long term goal.
https://www.post-gazette.com/business/p ... 1505130224

As a delayed (thanks to the pandemic) long term goal I'd say the ACAA still has one of the ME3 and TK in their sights. Interesting development regarding TK is they are now better connected than the ME3 wrt connecting opportunities due to their new IST airport.

Much more likely is we would see Turkish Cargo, but we might have already missed the boat on that considering just a few weeks ago they launched a new service to nearby Columbus LCK:
https://www.turkishcargo.com.tr/en/news ... o-columbus

Wow, I got super excited for a moment thinking that TK was launching PIT-IST. lol...

This route would by far be the best addition that our airport could make for me personally (aside from PIT-SVO or PIT-DME, which would never happen).

In terms of other carriers though, when travel to Europe and the rest of the world really re-opens, I think this route is a real possibility on the 787. The connections out of the new IST are endless, and honestly MUCH better location wise than DXB or AUH or DOH.

Fingers crossed...

flyPIT · Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:57 pm

Airlines have signed a longer term (7 years) operating agreement that will allow the ACAA to proceed with the TMP. No word yet if every airline signed on or if BA was one of them.

https://blueskypit.com/2021/06/24/pit-m ... ClZj8tjySs

Also, a new rendering of one of the outdoor areas:

AaronPGH · Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:35 pm

Clocked this on LinkedIn. Pittsburgh coming in at #4 for US metros where "the pool of tech and engineering talent has grown fastest, relative to total population size" from Dec 2019 to May 2021. This is from LinkedIn News, pulled from their own data and job movement. So that's a good sign. I wondered how things would shake out here for tech through the pandemic.

1) Madison, WI
2) Colorado Springs
3) Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill
4) Pittsburgh
5) Huntsville, AL
6) Austin
7) Tucson
8) Des Moines
9) Cincinnati
10) Denver

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/ur ... 394544640/

PITfall · Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:49 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
Clocked this on LinkedIn. Pittsburgh coming in at #4 for US metros where "the pool of tech and engineering talent has grown fastest, relative to total population size" from Dec 2019 to May 2021. This is from LinkedIn News, pulled from their own data and job movement. So that's a good sign. I wondered how things would shake out here for tech through the pandemic.

1) Madison, WI
2) Colorado Springs
3) Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill
4) Pittsburgh
5) Huntsville, AL
6) Austin
7) Tucson
8) Des Moines
9) Cincinnati
10) Denver

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/ur ... 394544640/

A couple items that have been in the news that I am looking forward to hearing about.

1.) Apple has been rumored for quite some time to be expanding office space. Interested to see if this deal ever gets done and how much Sq footage they take

2.) During the pandemic, Zoom announced that they were going to open Pittsburgh and Phoenix offices. The size of the office was going to be dependent on how the hiring broke out between the two cities. Curious to see how our hiring compared to Phoenix and how big the Pittsburgh office will be.

TYSflyer · Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:17 am

United has scheduled a one off flight PIT-TYS 09/10 and returning on 09/11 for the Pitt/Vols game that Saturday. It is scheduled on a CRJ if any of you are looking for an easy trip down for the game. Kind of stumbled on this tonight I definitely found it a little peculiar.

flyPIT · Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:41 pm

MasAir operated two flights this week so hopefully this is a sign their use of PIT is ramping up:

22-Jun-2021 B763 Frankfurt Int'l (FRA / EDDF) Pittsburgh Intl (KPIT) 10:41PM CEST 01:55AM EDT (+1) 9:13
23-Jun-2021 B763 Pittsburgh Intl (KPIT) Lic. Benito Juarez Int'l (MEX / MMMX) 03:42AM EDT 06:45AM CDT 4:02
24-Jun-2021 B763 Frankfurt Int'l (FRA / EDDF) Pittsburgh Intl (KPIT) 05:27AM CEST 07:54AM EDT 8:26
24-Jun-2021 B763 Pittsburgh Intl (KPIT) Lic. Benito Juarez Int'l (MEX / MMMX) 09:24AM EDT 12:07PM CDT 3:43

While being used as a tech stop is certainly a positive development (increased fuel sales, landing fees, more productive use of ground handling, etc) no doubt the ACAA's goal here is to have MasAir and the freight forwarder contracting that flight to use PIT as a cargo gateway. On that note here is the background on the MasAir FRA-XXX-MEX flight:
https://www.aircargonews.net/airlines/m ... -contract/

If PIT can get Senator International (the main freight forwarder using the MasAir flight) to set up a gateway at PIT I think it would be a huge boost. That company is responsible for putting GSP on the air cargo map, operating greater than 1x daily flights from Europe. As for MasAir, I believe their only scheduled US gateways are LAX and MIA, so a PIT operation could fill in this corner of the country quite nicely in their network.

On a related note, it was reported last year that PIT and ANC entered in to a marketing agreement to boost air cargo. Air Cargo News ran an updated article on this a couple days ago:
https://www.aircargonews.net/cargo-airp ... ply-chain/

"The agreement, which will establish airfreight and passenger services between the hubs, is also expected to boost their sales and marketing efforts for cargo"
I thought the remark about passenger flights was interesting.
The ANC FB page had a nice shout out to PIT a couple days ago as well, including a similar statement. "Click to learn how this agreement will grow both airfreight and passenger services between our hub and PIT!"

ANC is trying to redevelop a passenger network between N. America and Asia, with belly cargo and the ability to transfer that belly cargo at ANC as a key aspect of that initiative. There was a thread on this several months ago. Perhaps PIT has its fingers in this as well?

AaronPGH · Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:13 pm

Who would operate a flight like that? AS?

flyPIT · Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:18 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
Who would operate a flight like that? AS?

For AS, all it would take is expanding their business model to include seasonal 2-3x weekly service to ANC from medium size cities. This is exactly what Hawaiian did by adding MCO, AUS, and more to come. I see no reason why medium size cities would not be successful to ANC in the summer if packaged right with a limited schedule. Look at how the local PIT-KEF market was stimulated just by having a nonstop. Something like 1000%. I see no reason why the reaction to ANC would be any less if a nonstop option were to materialize. G4 could be another business model to fit this mold. The drawback to AS or G4 would be lack of (or very limited) belly cargo.

flyPIT · Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:57 am

The ACAA released a bunch of additional renderings on the PITtransformed website:

https://pittransformed.com/newsroom/gallery/

Most of the new ones focus on the outdoor areas as well as lower level inside. I'm not sure what to think of the "boardwalk through a swamp" theme they are going for.

Looks like more value engineering inside:

Meanwhile down in the extreme southern portion of our catchment area, Clarksburg, WV (CKB) broke ground on a new $35 million dollar terminal yesterday. It will include 3 gates (2 with jetways) and is part of $70 million worth of improvements which includes enhancements to taxiways, roadways, and expansion of their successful aviation related industrial park (something the Pittsburgh region lacks).

PITfall · Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:54 pm

The Post Gazette article has been updated with additional information. BA has not signed onto the new lease at this point. Nice to see Alaska has signed. I would love to see them add PIT-SFO, PIT-PDX (seasonal), and PIT-ANC would be pretty cool per the above conversation.

https://www.post-gazette.com/business/d ... 2106240135

"So far, five of the carriers — American, Southwest, Delta, Spirit and Alaska — have signed the agreement, authority CEO Christina Cassotis said Thursday. To get a deal, at least three airlines that combined carry more than 50% of the airport’s traffic had to endorse it.

That was the case with the new lease, Ms. Cassotis said, adding that she is expects all other major airlines to sign it as well. Nine airlines signed the current two-year lease."

flyPIT · Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:23 am

"Tasso Katselas, the architect who designed the 29-year-old midfield terminal, part of which will be replaced in the modernization, decried the spending as unnecessary.
“To take the best airport in the world and make it mediocre ... it hurts,” he said."

Some people just need to ride off in to the sunset.

PITfall · Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:33 am

flyPIT wrote:
"Tasso Katselas, the architect who designed the 29-year-old midfield terminal, part of which will be replaced in the modernization, decried the spending as unnecessary.
“To take the best airport in the world and make it mediocre ... it hurts,” he said."

Some people just need to ride off in to the sunset.

No idea why the PG keeps asking him for quotes.

Also, the best airport in the world?!??? Understand it's coming from the guy who designed it, but come on... Hilarious

Flaps · Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:44 pm

PITfall wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
"Tasso Katselas, the architect who designed the 29-year-old midfield terminal, part of which will be replaced in the modernization, decried the spending as unnecessary.
“To take the best airport in the world and make it mediocre ... it hurts,” he said."

Some people just need to ride off in to the sunset.

No idea why the PG keeps asking him for quotes.

Also, the best airport in the world?!??? Understand it's coming from the guy who designed it, but come on... Hilarious

It actually was one of the best, at the time that it opened. That was in a whole different world. Long before it became the dysfunctional sh-thole that it is now.

PITFlyer330 · Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:42 am

We got another new destination!!! Melbourne florida with allegiant!!!

flyPIT · Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:17 am

PITFlyer330 wrote:
We got another new destination!!! Melbourne florida with allegiant!!!

That should do well.

Another potential G4 destination that would do well is Concord, NC, near Charlotte. During Pittsburgh’s mass population exodus of the 80s, 90s, and 00s so many people moved there. The VFR between Pittsburgh and Charlotte is huge.... but the vast majority use I-79 & I-77. Like PIT-PHL, AA has the route to CLT clamped down and capacity controlled so most just drive. G4 to Concord could take some of those folks off the highway especially when considering how convenient that airport is to Mooresville and Lake Norman.

GSP psgr · Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:58 am

We had some friends in from PIT the other night, and the discussion rolled around to why US abandoned PIT as a hub, and I ended up making a longer list than I thought. In order by the size of the wound:

1) 9/11-Simply put, the post 9/11 world could not support three large US connecting complexes on the East Coast, plus the BOS/LGA/DCA operations simultaneously. PIT was the obvious sacrificial offering.
2) WN's rise at BWI: WN killed US's pricing power in bread and butter markets like CLE, BUF, BDL, PVD, MHT, ALB.....The US of that era which flew every mainline narrowbody known to man simply couldn't keep up.
3a) Whatever key markets WN wasn't cleaning US's clock in, Delta was having a field day with through Comair's enormous expansion with CRJs at CVG; to a lesser extent the same is true of UAX's Atlantic Coast operation at IAD which steadily grew through the late '90s and early 00s as well. CoEx bit off another chunk through the CLE hublet as well. Although it too was late to the CRJ game, NW had a significant ARJ-85 operation out of DTW; NW's slow rise there is an underrated proximate cause of US's death.
3b) US was very, very late to the 50 seat RJ game; had they been a bit quicker on the uptake (and maybe with a few smaller breaks along the way), you might have seen PIT limp along as hublet along the lines of CO at CLE for another decade and then some.
4) The enormous rise of CLT and ATL. There are two ways to beat the BOS-WAS ATC problem in terms of connecting North-South flows; you can go around it to the West, or connect in the Southeast. DL has built a 1000 flight hub at ATL and CLT is what? 650-700? CLT ate PIT's connecting flow in the same way ATL eventually ate up CVG.
5a) The rise of international traffic. PIT was a great almost purely domestic hub. Once WN started to nuke yields domestically, PIT (along with CLE and CVG) were not left with great local traffic bases or geography to build big international connecting operations on as the legacies focused their efforts where they could make money. That fact increasingly drove connecting capacity to PHL.
5b) Merger Mania: A lot of merger maina was driven by the need to consolidate domestic to international traffic flows around larger hub operation. PIT was always going to lose out on this front to some combination of EWR/JFK/PHL/IAD/DTW/ORD...and even something like CVG or STL if certain combinations had come into play.
6) The general decline of PIT's economy. Although I feel generally good about where PIT's economy is headed now, I think it needed to have been tracking ahead of where it was by at least a decade if they wanted to hold onto something hublike. I think if PIT's economy was where it was circa 2015 around 2005....I could maybe see US wanting to hold onto at a DL@RDU sized operation as a long term play.
7a) The fact that US ended up with PHL rather than EWR as their transatlantic hub. Everybody forgets that the terminal Continental built their eventual Global Gateway hub on was owned originally by.....USAir. A smaller PIT hub reliever operation when paired with EWR makes a lot more sense than the PIT/PHL combo USAir ended up with.
7b) Ed Rendell-It was pure bad luck that when things did finally start to fall completely apart that Mr. Philadelphia was the guy running the state. Literally anyone else would have fought harder for PIT's long term success.
8) Bad USAir management: Before Steven Wolf came in, my perception is that US was basically run by idiots. How else do you explain an airline that is flying the 737-200/300/400, the F100, MD-80s, DC-9s, 727s, and 757s....all at once. Their fleet strategy alone in the early to mid-90s alone was lunacy that left them vulnerable to literally everybody else. That doesn't even get into US's labor-management issues....although I've heard that PIT's labor issues were significantly better than PHL's comparable struggles.
9) Bad timing/design in building the new terminal-At the margins, maybe if the current terminal is built in the late 1980s rather than early 90s and if it is a bit less grandiose and costly.....at the margins I think that might have mattered. 5 years less long term debtload and more years of peak operation.....again, maybe that gets you to some sort of hublet or focus city operation. Then again, that exact scenario at CVG was still only somewhat more successful than where PIT ended up.

Any other problems that I'm missing?

rivervisual · Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:30 am

GSP psgr wrote:
Any other problems that I'm missing?

There were a couple other things that contributed to the shut down of the US hub at PIT as well.

1. I think the biggest reason was Airport management. If the ACAA ooerated the airport the way it does now i feel the outcome may have been different.

The airport was run differently at the time with County Commissioners being more in charge of the operation. I think they genuinely weren't smart enough to realize that US may walk away. They didn't renegotiate the lease (agreed that they were hamstrung by the terminal costs) until it was too late. I really feel like they thought it was a bluff to get a better deal and then they filed BK and the bluff became reality.

2. Remember US went bankrupt twice in a couple years. The real problem was the first one when Bronner took over and rhe Alabama pension fund took their stake in the airline. The subsequent bankruptcy and merger with America West really didn't impact the decision to shut down PIT. That was the doing of management after the 1st BK.

PITFlyer330 · Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:04 am

AA upgrading MIA https://twitter.com/thepointsguy/status ... 57452?s=20

flyPIT · Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:31 am

It's amazing sometimes what airlines include in a press release. AA is upgauging one PIT-MIA flight (yet again) from E145 to E175 :sarcastic:

. Meanwhile at CLE they are adding one more frequency (mainline no less); that's on top of NK's new flight which will be an A321, and that's on top of WN also adding the route.

A/C has delayed YYZ-PIT until Aug now; it has already resumed YYZ-CMH.

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net