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PITexpress
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:09 pm

umichman wrote:
PIT-SEA route is reduced to 6x weekly starting in September.


I'm confused by this, does anyone know why? Google flights shows it as 5x weekly for the rest of the year with the off days being W & F. I took this flight back and forth from SEA a month ago and it was full and expensive both ways. Does demand really drop off of a cliff right after labor day? The prices I'm seeing for the days it does operate are still pretty high ($300-600 RT) It's also interesting that this route was always 7 days a week, even throughout the winter months before.
 
pmanni1
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:08 pm

PITexpress wrote:
umichman wrote:
PIT-SEA route is reduced to 6x weekly starting in September.


I'm confused by this, does anyone know why? Google flights shows it as 5x weekly for the rest of the year with the off days being W & F. I took this flight back and forth from SEA a month ago and it was full and expensive both ways. Does demand really drop off of a cliff right after labor day? The prices I'm seeing for the days it does operate are still pretty high ($300-600 RT) It's also interesting that this route was always 7 days a week, even throughout the winter months before.

I see it as 6x weekly the rest of the year alternating between Tues or Wed as no flight depending on the month. And yes, demand does drop after Labor Day with October typically the slowest month.
 
umichman
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:14 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
PITexpress wrote:
umichman wrote:
PIT-SEA route is reduced to 6x weekly starting in September.


I'm confused by this, does anyone know why? Google flights shows it as 5x weekly for the rest of the year with the off days being W & F. I took this flight back and forth from SEA a month ago and it was full and expensive both ways. Does demand really drop off of a cliff right after labor day? The prices I'm seeing for the days it does operate are still pretty high ($300-600 RT) It's also interesting that this route was always 7 days a week, even throughout the winter months before.

I see it as 6x weekly the rest of the year alternating between Tues or Wed as no flight depending on the month. And yes, demand does drop after Labor Day with October typically the slowest month.


SEA-CMH also goes less than daily in September and has as few as 4x weekly frequencies in October/November.
 
a320flyer
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:00 pm

umichman wrote:
Whoever made this table didn't seem to search very thoroughly

Lowest fares on PIT-SEA are actually $149 one-way (the CMH-SEA number is right, but RDU-SEA has fares from as low as $109 -- likely due to DL competition). PIT-SEA route is reduced to 6x weekly starting in September.

Fares were taken over a week ago, they do change.
 
BangersAndMash
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:42 pm

umichman wrote:
BangersAndMash wrote:
Some good news from the Ohio thread I thought was worthwhile republishing here.

AS seems to achieve stronger pricing to SEA in PIT than other Midwestern markets. Bodes well for a second daily.

a320flyer wrote:
One-way Lowest Fares:
CVG-SEA: $109 (2x DL/AS)
IND-SEA: $139 (1x AS)
STL-SEA: $139 (3x AS/WN)
CMH-SEA: $149 (1x AS)
RDU-SEA: $149 (3x AS/DL)
MKE-SEA: $159 (1x AS)
PIT-SEA: $199 (1x AS)


Whoever made this table didn't seem to search very thoroughly

Lowest fares on PIT-SEA are actually $149 one-way (the CMH-SEA number is right, but RDU-SEA has fares from as low as $109 -- likely due to DL competition). PIT-SEA route is reduced to 6x weekly starting in September.


Original post is a week old. Figures are presumably from Google Flights. I didn't check myself. AS has made their cuts for end of year traffic slump. Loss of a single weekly frequency for a long transcon is not bad. Some had it a lot worse.
 
Flaps
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:21 pm

ConcourseZ wrote:
There is a Euro Atlantic Airways B772 flight from ICN, arriving today at noon. Anyone have any details about this flight? Cargo I assume.


Sub service for Spice.
 
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ConcourseZ
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:14 am

Flaps wrote:
ConcourseZ wrote:
There is a Euro Atlantic Airways B772 flight from ICN, arriving today at noon. Anyone have any details about this flight? Cargo I assume.


Sub service for Spice.

Thanks!
 
peter991
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:06 am

psumd80 wrote:
Anyone know the story behind the Hi Fly Malta charters? Vaccine shipments maybe?

They are operating for SpiceXpress of India carrying clothing from Vietnam via various tech stops. I never did read who the shipper was but I assume Unique Logistics, the same company behind the Qatar Airways flights.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:55 pm

flyPIT wrote:
dabpit wrote:
I do not know if it has been mentioned or not previously but Amazon is adding a daily flight from LAL to PIT starting August 5th. That means Amazon will have two daily cargo flights at PIT (AFW and LAL).

Any word on who will be providing the lift?


Confirming the answer to my question, it is Sun Country with a B738.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SCX ... /KLAL/KPIT

I think it's great Amazon Air is providing service to regional hubs instead of routing everything via CVG. Hopefully this continues which could mean service to the west coast; they have a trio of regional SoCal hubs at ONT/RIV/SBD as well as SCK.
 
USAir707
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:19 am

What happened to Allegiant Air 1418 tonight (Friday the 6th) from AUS-PIT? It diverted to Springfield...
 
Delta28L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:54 pm

USAir707 wrote:
What happened to Allegiant Air 1418 tonight (Friday the 6th) from AUS-PIT? It diverted to Springfield...


Medical division since the flight continued on and arrived around two in the morning local time
 
PITexpress
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:53 pm

Just took the inaugural PIT-RAP flight. Was about ~70% full on the way to RAP and maybe ~30% full on the way back. Taking a red eye with Allegiant's seats is less than ideal.

One thing I found frustrating is that G4 only "dimmed" the cabin lights on the flight to RAP and only turned them off about 30 mins into the flight back. I asked a FA if they could turn the lights off and he said they want to give everyone a chance to eat their snacks with the light on before they turn them off completely. I mean I guess... but what snacks? And why? Every other airline turns the lights completely off after the safety demo and don't turn them on till landing.
 
AaronPGH
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:35 pm

Looks like UA's PIT-SFO is finally back at 1x daily starting Sep 8, as it has held through the Sept schedule updates.

Also, I know there's been a lot of hand-wringing about the economic performance of Pittsburgh versus Cleveland and other peer cities from a few posters. I stumbled upon this article last week from Cleveland.com that seems to paint a very different picture. One where Pittsburgh, on a number of metrics (GDP, salaries, etc), has actually been pulling well ahead of Cleveland for over a decade. And that it seems to have held through the pandemic as well. They're analyzing the longer term trend of how the two economies have actually become pretty different:

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2021/07/ ... omies.html
 
masseybrown
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:37 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
Looks like UA's PIT-SFO is finally back at 1x daily starting Sep 8, as it has held through the Sept schedule updates.

Also, I know there's been a lot of hand-wringing about the economic performance of Pittsburgh versus Cleveland and other peer cities from a few posters. I stumbled upon this article last week from Cleveland.com that seems to paint a very different picture. One where Pittsburgh, on a number of metrics (GDP, salaries, etc), has actually been pulling well ahead of Cleveland for over a decade.


The article contains numerous errors (nothing new for cleveland.com) and the report's author is dying of cancer, so everyone is being very nice to him. For example, on GDP, the article's source says the CLE MSA'a 2019 GDP is $118.2 billion, the feds report that it's $135.57 billion (still behind that of PIT, but by a much smaller amount).

I believe the PIT MSA IS, in fact, ahead of CLE in most of these individual data points, but not nearly as far ahead as cleveland.com wants to believe. There is also the debatable question of Akron and its suburbs which are increasingly an economical part of CLE but historically have been excluded. With Akron's Summit County added, the difference in numbers pretty much goes away.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:59 am

EuroAtlantic sent another B772 from HAN via ICN yesterday; I assume they will be a weekly addition for SpiceXpress:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/MMZ ... /RKSI/KPIT


The Cleveland.com article is interesting but I'll point out is is a comparison of the past 20 years, not the past 2 years. Over the past 20 years Pittsburgh has out-performed Cleveland economically using several metrics, and Cleveland is hardly an example of a city to strive for.

I did find this fact unsurprising:
But while Pittsburgh’s much heralded transition to a knowledge economy has attracted a great deal of investment, but with limited job creation, it’s been an old line industry – oil and gas extraction - that has contributed most to the city’s increase in GDP in recent years.

The rise of fracking, or hydraulic fracturing, has fueled the Pittsburgh economy while similar efforts in eastern Ohio have done little for the Cleveland area, Piiparinen said.


I've posted this 6 year old report a few times, Pittsburgh is shown in very good light compared to Cleveland:

http://www.ceosforcitiesworkshop.org/wp ... -Minds.pdf


The underlying fundamentals of a strong future for Pittsburgh are there... Eds & Meds, energy/natural resources, financial services. However despite these strengths the MSA continues to be in a region with high regulation and taxation which holds it back. Therefore the issues I have are the institutional issues facing Pennsylvania on the state level as well as how they handled the pandemic. On that note, here is comparable unemployment rates for June:

https://pittsburghquarterly.com/indicat ... ment-rate/

Is it a coincidence Pittsburgh and Philly are last? Cleveland seems to be doing fairly decent at the moment.

Look at Detroit! What a comeback on the jobs front. That only took a few years for them to recover. That's why I cringe every time I hear Pittsburgh's problems are tied to more people dying than being born. That excuse was good for a generation, not the 3 (40 years) we are going on now.


"The region’s labor force, which has struggled to recover from the COVID-19 pandemic, got a slight boost in June. Employers in the region added 1,300 workers to their payrolls from May to June 2021.

But overall, the labor force is stuck, according to Briem. “Employment levels have been flat since last fall. Labor force isn’t showing any signs of coming back to pre-COVID levels.”

The region’s labor force reported 26,510 fewer workers in June compared to a year earlier. And it has continued to struggle this year, shedding 10,700 workers since April, despite increased COVID vaccination rates, the easing of business restrictions and increased job opportunities.

“Most regions may not be rapidly coming back to pre-COVID levels,” Briem said. “But most regions are seeing moderate-but-steady gains in employment and labor force. Neither of those things appear to be true here, for the moment.
"
https://pittsburghquarterly.com/article ... workforce/


Here's another ranking where Pittsburgh is showing very poorly while our peer cities are doing very well:
https://www.moneygeek.com/living/top-ci ... b-seekers/

Its just not gonna change until PA becomes a place where small business and light manufacturing is allowed to thrive, or until the fracking comes back in full force which just may happen fairly soon.
 
Flaps
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:57 pm

The jobs exist. Its just about impossible to fill them. I have been trying to hire 40 people since June 1st. I have been able to acquire 6, only 3 of which are going to turn out to be viable and I've lost 6 more due the excessive workload.

Its just not gonna change until PA becomes a place where small business and light manufacturing is allowed to thrive, or until the fracking comes back in full force which just may happen fairly soon.

THIS. PA government policy, corruption and taxation are like a giant anchor holding back progress and growth within the state.
 
PITfall
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:52 pm

https://www.pghcitypaper.com/pittsburgh ... a=AMP+HTML

Allegheny County posts population growth.
 
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ConcourseZ
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:44 am

PITfall wrote:
https://www.pghcitypaper.com/pittsburgh/allegheny-county-gains-population-for-first-time-in-six-decades-says-census/Content?oid=20001909&media=AMP+HTML

Allegheny County posts population growth.

Yes! A 2.2% population growth is great news. The city had a negligible drop. Likely, deaths outpacing the influx of new people. That will change. But that 10-year number doesn't reflect the year-over-year improvement.
Butler and Washington counties had nice gains.
Allegheny County basically kept pace with overall Pennsylvania growth.
Population declines start slowly then end dramatically. It takes decades.
Population growth starts small then ramps up. This also takes decades.
It will take a while for the 80s bust to be recovered. But it's happening.
Interesting to note that high-tax, many regulations, expensive NYC added 1.1 million people to its population.
 
AaronPGH
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:06 am

This is a pretty big deal actually. Population growth wasn't supposed to happen quite yet.
 
GSP psgr
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:19 am

ConcourseZ wrote:
PITfall wrote:
https://www.pghcitypaper.com/pittsburgh/allegheny-county-gains-population-for-first-time-in-six-decades-says-census/Content?oid=20001909&media=AMP+HTML

Allegheny County posts population growth.

Yes! A 2.2% population growth is great news. The city had a negligible drop. Likely, deaths outpacing the influx of new people. That will change. But that 10-year number doesn't reflect the year-over-year improvement.
Butler and Washington counties had nice gains.
Allegheny County basically kept pace with overall Pennsylvania growth.
Population declines start slowly then end dramatically. It takes decades.
Population growth starts small then ramps up. This also takes decades.
It will take a while for the 80s bust to be recovered. But it's happening.
Interesting to note that high-tax, many regulations, expensive NYC added 1.1 million people to its population.


-Outside of Pittsburgh, Greater Philadelphia, Harrisburg, the ABE region, and York County, population growth in Pennsylvania was either basically flat or negative. Erie, Newcastle, and Johnstown shrank, as did Youngstown just across the border.
-Pennsylvania slightly outperformed it's peer states of Ohio and Michigan. Pittsburgh overperformed Cleveland ever so slightly, but underperformed compared to Cincinnati, St. Louis, Detroit, and Milwaukee.
-The most successful state in the entire Great Lakes Region in the past 40 years is Minnesota. It is high tax, high service, and spends a lot on education (but has lower rates of corruption than the rest of the Midwest; for example the MSP region never had a mob family in it). MN posted a 7.6% growth rate. Make of that what you will. The fastest growing largeish metro in the region is Columbus, which posted a 12.5% growth rate. Lets just say that I think the MSP and CMH regions set the bar for what I think is possible in Pittsburgh.
-Expecting the region to ever grow at the insane growth rates of an RDU/AUS or an ATL/PHX is probably not realistic. Dealing with the problems that sort of growth rate comes with is also not fun-horrific traffic, overcrowded schools, power and water shortages, and increasingly expensive/scarce housing (example: My brother's house in the CLT metro area has somehow appreciated $100k per year since he bought it, another friend in a different sunbelt metro pocketed $175k in the timespan of just one year on his house).
-I can almost see the big Sun Belt markets peaking from where we are now driven by the dying off of the baby boomers, infrastructure limits, resource limits, increasing costs of living, and the effects of global warming. See Los Angeles as an example of where I think Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, etc are eventually heading. LA was the giant boomtown of the 60s-90s. LA County only grew by a mere 2% last decade; it finally choked on it's sprawl and starved itself of affordable housing. The cities of Midwest/Great Lakes with it's abundant water and power, more temperate climate, cheap cost of living, and solid amenities; having largely digested the pain of post-industrial decline are really well situated to take advantage of what is to come in a way that I don't think New England and the West Coast are.
 
ncflyer
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:01 pm

Wow such great stuff GSP, Minneapolis has advantages: it is a "capital city" of the upper midwest, in much the same way Seattle is of the Northwest or Atlanta of the Southeast. They have very creative tax sharing between suburbs too so I don't think they are as balkanized. Big advantage to attracting new business-- compete against other regions instead of each other.

I do find it funny that folks on this thread blame PIT's economic challenges on high taxation and corruption. Meantime NYC added 600K people and Boston area continues to thrive. Even Chicago grew a little bit. No high taxation, corruption, or crime to see in those cities-- haha!

PS I lived in RDU for a number of years and the grass is not always greener let me tell you. Over crowded, awful traffic, third rate museums, dominated by sterile chain restaurants, awful to non-existent municipal park systems. The saying we use in CLE where I live is there are two types of people who hate Cleveland, those who've never been and those who've never left. Same is true for PIT.

Off topic from airlines but population and economics drive airport success so there is a connection I suppose.
 
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ConcourseZ
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:06 pm

There have been a few articles about growth in Columbus. All of them cite that that growth is unsustainable as the influx of people come from the rural areas of Ohio. The likely reason is the availability of jobs in light manufacturing and warehousing, which don't require a college degree. Rural Pennsylvanians are not flocking to Pittsburgh as the jobs here require a college degree, with emphasis on STEM areas. Hence, we have an influx of people from other areas of the country and the world, which is what we need to have.

Minnesota is a good example of northern success. Despite the "harsh" winters and higher taxes, people still move there. Some of the people who move away from here complain of the "harsh" winter weather (still chuckling about that).

Taxes and where people live has been studied to death. There is no correlation between taxes and where people live. High taxes is a tired, old, and false GOP talking point. Otherwise, NYC would not be able to add 1.1 million people to the population.

Sunbelt areas will see in short order a reversal of fortunes as climate change causes temperature and water hardships. Las Vegas and Phoenix are not sustainable. Texas will get hammered too. The rest of the south will not be livable in the long term. We might see the start of a reverse migration in less than 10 years.

Milwaukee is an oddity. They were showing population loss throughout the decade, now with a surge. People leaving Chicago for nearby Milwaukee?
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:42 pm

While it's certainly great news the Pittsburgh MSA has gained a slight amount of population when making the 10 year comparison, it is mostly a psychological win to finally see the "+". Don't pop the champagne corks too early... Pittsburgh was still the worst performing MSA in the top 40 with the exception of Cleveland, and will be overtaken by a handful of other MSAs in the coming years.
https://public.tableau.com/views/2020Ce ... VizHome=no

How did the region fare in 2020 compared to 2019 or 2018? Likewise this notion that NYC is gaining population is simply false.. people are moving away in droves:
https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2021/05/08 ... ne-census/

The close in trend matters much more than a comparison with 10 years ago.


LBE has released this image of their future terminal upgrade:
Image
 
GSP psgr
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:25 pm

Regional Pittsburgh growth map:

Image

Aside from declines in the Mon Valley, most of Allegheny County held stable or actually grew.

ncflyer wrote:
Wow such great stuff GSP, Minneapolis has advantages: it is a "capital city" of the upper midwest, in much the same way Seattle is of the Northwest or Atlanta of the Southeast. They have very creative tax sharing between suburbs too so I don't think they are as balkanized. Big advantage to attracting new business-- compete against other regions instead of each other.

I do find it funny that folks on this thread blame PIT's economic challenges on high taxation and corruption. Meantime NYC added 600K people and Boston area continues to thrive. Even Chicago grew a little bit. No high taxation, corruption, or crime to see in those cities-- haha!

PS I lived in RDU for a number of years and the grass is not always greener let me tell you. Over crowded, awful traffic, third rate museums, dominated by sterile chain restaurants, awful to non-existent municipal park systems. The saying we use in CLE where I live is there are two types of people who hate Cleveland, those who've never been and those who've never left. Same is true for PIT.

Off topic from airlines but population and economics drive airport success so there is a connection I suppose.


Cleveland is where Pittsburgh was maybe 7-8 years ago; manufacturing there had held up better at least for awhile, but there are a lot of good things there to build off of: Cleveland Clinic, Case Western, the Cleveland Symphony, Great Lakes Brewing (mmmmm.....Dortmunder Gold)....heck, even the Browns seem to have finally stumbled into a turnaround. I actually think they're making a wise decision to live within their means airport wise rather than what PIT is choosing to do.

The Great Lakes area's problem hasn't so much been taxes and corruption (or even the weather), it has been the lingering and crippling effects of the collapse of heavy industry and manufacturing. You don't replace those giant steel mills and manufacturing plants overnight. Deindustrialization is a helluva drug, which has created a bunch of vicious cycles. To use a metaphor, after plunging 40,000 feet over the last 4 decades, the plane has finally leveled off in most of the big metro areas. I'll add that Deep South Summers are not any improvement on Great Lakes Winters. Which cycles me back to Minnesota and the MSP region. It has done so well in part because it was arguably the least tied to heavy industry as an employment center of any major metro in the Great Lakes region. Ditto Columbus. Both skew towards white collar and government jobs moreso than PIT/CLE/STL/DTW.

Texas is no economic miracle; studies have shown that if it wasn't floating on oil and gas, it would be just average. I'd love to see how well Texas would do if oil suddenly and permanently crashed down to $20 a barrel. Houston would turn into Detroit-On-The-Gulf. Florida's growth is about to hit the double wall of the baby boomers dying off and massive climate change. Ditto Arizona and Nevada. Atlanta basically grows because it's the defacto regional business center of the South. The only big growth Sun Belt ponies I'm actually impressed by are North Carolina and Virginia, which took actual skill to create what they have rather than resource luck and geography.
 
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ConcourseZ
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:03 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
Regional Pittsburgh growth map:

Image

Aside from declines in the Mon Valley, most of Allegheny County held stable or actually grew.

ncflyer wrote:
Wow such great stuff GSP, Minneapolis has advantages: it is a "capital city" of the upper midwest, in much the same way Seattle is of the Northwest or Atlanta of the Southeast. They have very creative tax sharing between suburbs too so I don't think they are as balkanized. Big advantage to attracting new business-- compete against other regions instead of each other.

I do find it funny that folks on this thread blame PIT's economic challenges on high taxation and corruption. Meantime NYC added 600K people and Boston area continues to thrive. Even Chicago grew a little bit. No high taxation, corruption, or crime to see in those cities-- haha!

PS I lived in RDU for a number of years and the grass is not always greener let me tell you. Over crowded, awful traffic, third rate museums, dominated by sterile chain restaurants, awful to non-existent municipal park systems. The saying we use in CLE where I live is there are two types of people who hate Cleveland, those who've never been and those who've never left. Same is true for PIT.

Off topic from airlines but population and economics drive airport success so there is a connection I suppose.


Cleveland is where Pittsburgh was maybe 7-8 years ago; manufacturing there had held up better at least for awhile, but there are a lot of good things there to build off of: Cleveland Clinic, Case Western, the Cleveland Symphony, Great Lakes Brewing (mmmmm.....Dortmunder Gold)....heck, even the Browns seem to have finally stumbled into a turnaround. I actually think they're making a wise decision to live within their means airport wise rather than what PIT is choosing to do.

The Great Lakes area's problem hasn't so much been taxes and corruption (or even the weather), it has been the lingering and crippling effects of the collapse of heavy industry and manufacturing. You don't replace those giant steel mills and manufacturing plants overnight. Deindustrialization is a helluva drug, which has created a bunch of vicious cycles. To use a metaphor, after plunging 40,000 feet over the last 4 decades, the plane has finally leveled off in most of the big metro areas. I'll add that Deep South Summers are not any improvement on Great Lakes Winters. Which cycles me back to Minnesota and the MSP region. It has done so well in part because it was arguably the least tied to heavy industry as an employment center of any major metro in the Great Lakes region. Ditto Columbus. Both skew towards white collar and government jobs moreso than PIT/CLE/STL/DTW.

Texas is no economic miracle; studies have shown that if it wasn't floating on oil and gas, it would be just average. I'd love to see how well Texas would do if oil suddenly and permanently crashed down to $20 a barrel. Houston would turn into Detroit-On-The-Gulf. Florida's growth is about to hit the double wall of the baby boomers dying off and massive climate change. Ditto Arizona and Nevada. Atlanta basically grows because it's the defacto regional business center of the South. The only big growth Sun Belt ponies I'm actually impressed by are North Carolina and Virginia, which took actual skill to create what they have rather than resource luck and geography.

That is correct.....you don't replace a massive industrial base overnight. Since western PA suffered a great population exodus, we start from a big hole that the other metros never had. That is still not accounted for when there are comparisons to "peer cities (which is an absurd classification)" This area's gains are tremendous considering where it was. We have to make up population loss other "peers" never had.

Switching to commercial aviation, there are a few diversions to PIT today. Saw a UA flight from Athens came in.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:29 am

The amount of rationalization here for Pittsburgh's poor performance is impressive! No one said the exodus of the manufacturing base would be reversed "overnight". It's been 40 years!!! What would be acceptable? 60 years? 80? Contrary to some comments Pittsburgh is hardly the only major city to lose its leading industry. How many times has there been an oil bust in Houston? Auto industry in Detroit? Dot.com bust in the Bay Area? Did it take those regions 40 years just to stabilize their losses? Of course not. But it's been a different matter here.

The steel industry did collapse in the US in the early 1980's. But it came back in relatively short order... just not to Pittsburgh! Why is that? When these other cities lost their industries and those industries recovered they recovered to their respective cities. Not here though. THAT is the issue. The industry returned in the form of mini-mills in business friendly states. When the CEO of Pittsburgh's largest corporation cites the state's regulatory issues as the prime reason for nixing a $1.5 billion investment just a few months ago that would have modernized and cleaned up (environmentally) one of the region's last steel mills, what more empirical evidence does one need? $1.5 billion loss and a dirtier steel mill remains.

The Pittsburgh region saw some real population and jobs growth in the middle of last decade due to natural gas industries. That industry has contracted, but not vanished. It's been the biggest bright spot for the region and probably the single biggest reason there was a slight overall population increase over 10 years. I'll ask again.. what are the more recent trends? 2018 to 2019? 2019 to 2020?
https://www.ucsur.pitt.edu/perspectives ... 1115818670


This notion that the sunbelt will stop growing due to global warming is beyond laughable.
 
GSP psgr
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:27 am

flyPIT wrote:
The amount of rationalization here for Pittsburgh's poor performance is impressive! No one said the exodus of the manufacturing base would be reversed "overnight". It's been 40 years!!! What would be acceptable? 60 years? 80? Contrary to some comments Pittsburgh is hardly the only major city to lose its leading industry. How many times has there been an oil bust in Houston? Auto industry in Detroit? Dot.com bust in the Bay Area? Did it take those regions 40 years just to stabilize their losses? Of course not. But it's been a different matter here.

The steel industry did collapse in the US in the early 1980's. But it came back in relatively short order... just not to Pittsburgh! Why is that? When these other cities lost their industries and those industries recovered they recovered to their respective cities. Not here though. THAT is the issue. The industry returned in the form of mini-mills in business friendly states. When the CEO of Pittsburgh's largest corporation cites the state's regulatory issues as the prime reason for nixing a $1.5 billion investment just a few months ago that would have modernized and cleaned up (environmentally) one of the region's last steel mills, what more imperial evidence does one need? $1.5 billion loss and a dirtier steel mill remains.

The Pittsburgh region saw some real population and jobs growth in the middle of last decade due to natural gas industries. That industry has contracted, but not vanished. It's been the biggest bright spot for the region and probably the single biggest reason there was a slight overall population increase over 10 years. I'll ask again.. what are the more recent trends? 2018 to 2019? 2019 to 2020?
https://www.ucsur.pitt.edu/perspectives ... 1115818670


This notion that the sunbelt will stop growing due to global warming is beyond laughable.


The dot com bust was more of a temporary, cyclical downturn in the tech industry; ditto for the various oil price slumps-you can't physically move the oil and gas in the ground from Texas to Indiana. That was always going to come back. Neither was a fundamental, long term realignment of the functional demand for either oil or software. The auto industry in Detroit still hasn't recovered from it's peak in what, the late 1960s? The realignment in the auto industry was slower and more managed over 4 to 5 decades; the Detroit Metro Area did not suffer the same sheer fall off the cliff that Pittsburgh did. Steel production suffered a fundamnetal long term shift in demand-even in "business friendly" Alabama, US Steel has closed their last mill.

What the Pittsburgh metro area went through was almost singular and unheard of for a city of it's size in the modern era; the only thing that I can even think of as a rough parallel is what Katrina did to New Orleans. In rapid succession facilities were closing and putting people out of business 4k to 8k at a time . Unemployment in Beaver County peaked at over 27% in 1983. It is one thing to lose a single very big employer in a metro area like the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard or say the closure of the Northwest Airlines hub in Memphis. It's completely another to lose them by the bushel in a short timespan all in the same region. There's a distinct reason why the Greater Pittsburgh area will be the only one in America that is actually projected to get younger over the next few decades.

Growth rates are already slowing in the major Sunbelt metros-Dallas, Phoenix, and Atlanta have all seen their metro growth rates plunging. Compare it to what Los Angeles and San Diego's metro trajectories-they were the original sunbelt boomtowns. We're now just at the beginning of seeing what climate change is going to mean for the South; watch Miami as a leading indicator of what is yet to come.
 
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ConcourseZ
Posts: 472
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:07 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:40 am

flyPIT wrote:
The amount of rationalization here for Pittsburgh's poor performance is impressive! No one said the exodus of the manufacturing base would be reversed "overnight". It's been 40 years!!! What would be acceptable? 60 years? 80? Contrary to some comments Pittsburgh is hardly the only major city to lose its leading industry. How many times has there been an oil bust in Houston? Auto industry in Detroit? Dot.com bust in the Bay Area? Did it take those regions 40 years just to stabilize their losses? Of course not. But it's been a different matter here.

The steel industry did collapse in the US in the early 1980's. But it came back in relatively short order... just not to Pittsburgh! Why is that? When these other cities lost their industries and those industries recovered they recovered to their respective cities. Not here though. THAT is the issue. The industry returned in the form of mini-mills in business friendly states. When the CEO of Pittsburgh's largest corporation cites the state's regulatory issues as the prime reason for nixing a $1.5 billion investment just a few months ago that would have modernized and cleaned up (environmentally) one of the region's last steel mills, what more empirical evidence does one need? $1.5 billion loss and a dirtier steel mill remains.

The Pittsburgh region saw some real population and jobs growth in the middle of last decade due to natural gas industries. That industry has contracted, but not vanished. It's been the biggest bright spot for the region and probably the single biggest reason there was a slight overall population increase over 10 years. I'll ask again.. what are the more recent trends? 2018 to 2019? 2019 to 2020?
https://www.ucsur.pitt.edu/perspectives ... 1115818670


This notion that the sunbelt will stop growing due to global warming is beyond laughable.

The regulatory environment is not an impediment. Rather, this area wants to move on to a 21st century economy, rather than worrying about past industries. We don't care about mini-mills. We care about the future. You should too. Oh, every other city except Pittsburgh recovered? Tell the people in Buffalo, as an example, that they have recovered from basic industry collapse in the 1980s. You are stuck on the old economy. Yes, the sun belt will stop growing. Extreme temperatures and drought are not conducive to growth. Your constant negative attitude is wearing thin.
 
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flyPIT
Posts: 2608
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:21 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:28 am

GSP psgr wrote:
What the Pittsburgh metro area went through was almost singular and unheard of for a city of it's size in the modern era; the only thing that I can even think of as a rough parallel is what Katrina did to New Orleans.

It was 40 years ago!!! Want to bring up Katrina? Great, you've just made my point. New Orleans population up 6.9% from 2010-2020, job growth up, airlines added service left and right.


Growth rates are already slowing in the major Sunbelt metros-Dallas, Phoenix, and Atlanta have all seen their metro growth rates plunging. Compare it to what Los Angeles and San Diego's metro trajectories-they were the original sunbelt boomtowns. We're now just at the beginning of seeing what climate change is going to mean for the South; watch Miami as a leading indicator of what is yet to come.

Oh I'm watching Miami's indicators, don't worry about that. From one of the least likely places as a tech hot spot to one of the nation's fastest growing tech and start-up scenes in just a few years, one which would make some of you drool.


ConcourseZ wrote:
The regulatory environment is not an impediment. Rather, this area wants to move on to a 21st century economy, rather than worrying about past industries. We don't care about mini-mills. We care about the future. You should too. Oh, every other city except Pittsburgh recovered? Tell the people in Buffalo, as an example, that they have recovered from basic industry collapse in the 1980s. You are stuck on the old economy. Yes, the sun belt will stop growing. Extreme temperatures and drought are not conducive to growth. Your constant negative attitude is wearing thin.

What's wearing thin is your chronic inability for critical thinking even when the facts and stats are put in front of your face. Buffalo by the way had population growth of 2.8% with a lower unemployment rate (June latest figures) so as usual I'm not sure what you're on about.

The facts about the Pittsburgh MSA's comparative economic health have in fact been negative, its got nothing to do with my attitude (nice deflection though). As for me, I'd love to post more positive economic news, but that has to happen first.
 
jplatts
Posts: 7147
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:04 am

Here are the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factors for WN flights out of PIT in May 2021:
ATL-PIT - 7695 passengers, 9634 seats, 79.87% load factor
BNA-PIT - 15490 passengers, 17057 seats, 90.81% load factor
BWI-PIT - 17332 passengers, 19966 seats, 86.81% load factor
DEN-PIT - 15061 passengers, 17074 seats, 88.21% load factor
FLL-PIT - 9895 passengers, 11416 seats, 86.68% load factor
LAS-PIT - 14479 passengers, 15674 seats, 92.38% load factor
MCO-PIT - 26901 passengers, 31470 seats, 85.48% load factor
MDW-PIT - 15567 passengers, 18077 seats, 86.11% load factor
PHX-PIT - 9371 passengers, 9777 seats, 95.85% load factor
PIT-RSW - 15037 passengers, 19539 seats, 76.96% load factor
PIT-SRQ - 4206 passengers, 5434 seats, 77.40% load factor
PIT-TPA - 17536 passengers, 21063 seats, 83.25% load factor
 
AaronPGH
Posts: 735
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:13 pm

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:34 am

Looks like PIT-CMH has been scrapped until February but PIT-SFO remains.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 2781
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:47 am

I would add that both Cleveland and Pittsburgh were hurt by the wave of mergers that hurt those 2 cities disproportionately hard.

Standard Oil, TRW, Diamond Shamrock, Rubbermaid, Firestone, General Tire,
 
krod031
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:49 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:24 am

AaronPGH wrote:
Looks like PIT-CMH has been scrapped until February but PIT-SFO remains.


PIT-CMH?? Who operates PIT-CMH?
 
Pittsburgher
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:11 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:05 pm

krod031 wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
Looks like PIT-CMH has been scrapped until February but PIT-SFO remains.


PIT-CMH?? Who operates PIT-CMH?

Yeah that’s definitely news to me too! Not sure if it’s true but would’ve been nice during my time at OSU.
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 7975
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:39 pm

krod031 wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
Looks like PIT-CMH has been scrapped until February but PIT-SFO remains.


PIT-CMH?? Who operates PIT-CMH?


I think they meant CMH-SFO
 
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flyPIT
Posts: 2608
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:50 pm

Breeze is receiving $560,000 to operate their 4 PIT flights.
https://www.post-gazette.com/business/d ... 2108100062

A couple thoughts on this
- The article states the incentive is to be divided in fourths to cover each route. I thought it was federal law that if an airline gets a subsidy for a route then any competing airline must also get the same subsidy. Is G4 getting a subsidy now for PIT-ORF/CHS, as well as UA for PIT-CHS? If not I wouldn't be too happy if I were them.
- PIT-ORF/CHS are already cut back to 2x weekly. Is Breeze still getting a full subsidy for those routes? If so then what BS.



SpiceJet is divesting itself of SpiceXpress.
"This will also allow SpiceXpress to raise capital to fuel its rapid growth,” Singh said. "
https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/s ... 15.article

Hopefully that means a more permanent presence for their PIT operation.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 7028
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:33 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Breeze is receiving $560,000 to operate their 4 PIT flights.
https://www.post-gazette.com/business/d ... 2108100062

A couple thoughts on this
- The article states the incentive is to be divided in fourths to cover each route. I thought it was federal law that if an airline gets a subsidy for a route then any competing airline must also get the same subsidy. Is G4 getting a subsidy now for PIT-ORF/CHS, as well as UA for PIT-CHS? If not I wouldn't be too happy if I were them.
- PIT-ORF/CHS are already cut back to 2x weekly. Is Breeze still getting a full subsidy for those routes? If so then what BS.



SpiceJet is divesting itself of SpiceXpress.
"This will also allow SpiceXpress to raise capital to fuel its rapid growth,” Singh said. "
https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/s ... 15.article

Hopefully that means a more permanent presence for their PIT operation.


Length and frequency can play into in. UA for a couple months probably isn’t long enough to get anything.
 
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flyPIT
Posts: 2608
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:12 pm

Some G4 updates... Austin and Destin restart in April... IIRC that is a couple months earlier than this year. Key West returns in Feb and is 2x weekly until the end of the booking window in May and I'm sure it will go beyond that so it's great to see this route do well. However they just announced a few more cities from EYW that begin in Dec... not sure why we miss out on a Dec (re)start.
AZA ends in Feb... I was hoping that would be year round. SAV takes a longer break over winter and is only 2x weekly, as is JAX. PIE and PGD seem to be down a few flights next Spring as well. All in all seems to be down in overall capacity compared to this year. G4 just doesn't seem to be getting much traction here, the highest frequency I see is 4x weekly next spring. The booking window goes out to mid-May so too early to tell if ORF and RAP return.
 
USAir707
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:49 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:42 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Some G4 updates... Austin and Destin restart in April... IIRC that is a couple months earlier than this year. Key West returns in Feb and is 2x weekly until the end of the booking window in May and I'm sure it will go beyond that so it's great to see this route do well. However they just announced a few more cities from EYW that begin in Dec... not sure why we miss out on a Dec (re)start.
AZA ends in Feb... I was hoping that would be year round. SAV takes a longer break over winter and is only 2x weekly, as is JAX. PIE and PGD seem to be down a few flights next Spring as well. All in all seems to be down in overall capacity compared to this year. G4 just doesn't seem to be getting much traction here, the highest frequency I see is 4x weekly next spring. The booking window goes out to mid-May so too early to tell if ORF and RAP return.


That is a shame.... I really like G4 when it comes to flying somewhere non-stop. I'd much rather suck it up in a coach seat for 2 hours to PGD or SRQ than to have more leg room on a legacy, but get stuck connecting and laying over somewhere.

G4 has always been good to me. Great prices, nice crew, good planes. Back in the Mad Dog days, I wouldn't be caught dead on one, but with an all Airbus fleet now, my tune has sure changed.
 
Delta28L
Posts: 710
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:00 pm

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:29 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Some G4 updates... Austin and Destin restart in April... IIRC that is a couple months earlier than this year. Key West returns in Feb and is 2x weekly until the end of the booking window in May and I'm sure it will go beyond that so it's great to see this route do well. However they just announced a few more cities from EYW that begin in Dec... not sure why we miss out on a Dec (re)start.
AZA ends in Feb... I was hoping that would be year round. SAV takes a longer break over winter and is only 2x weekly, as is JAX. PIE and PGD seem to be down a few flights next Spring as well. All in all seems to be down in overall capacity compared to this year. G4 just doesn't seem to be getting much traction here, the highest frequency I see is 4x weekly next spring. The booking window goes out to mid-May so too early to tell if ORF and RAP return.


They don’t know what the travel market will be next year due to COVID so they are most likely doing place holders until they get a picture of what needs extra lift to meet demand
 
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flyPIT
Posts: 2608
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:21 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:46 pm

Delta28L wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
Some G4 updates... Austin and Destin restart in April... IIRC that is a couple months earlier than this year. Key West returns in Feb and is 2x weekly until the end of the booking window in May and I'm sure it will go beyond that so it's great to see this route do well. However they just announced a few more cities from EYW that begin in Dec... not sure why we miss out on a Dec (re)start.
AZA ends in Feb... I was hoping that would be year round. SAV takes a longer break over winter and is only 2x weekly, as is JAX. PIE and PGD seem to be down a few flights next Spring as well. All in all seems to be down in overall capacity compared to this year. G4 just doesn't seem to be getting much traction here, the highest frequency I see is 4x weekly next spring. The booking window goes out to mid-May so too early to tell if ORF and RAP return.


They don’t know what the travel market will be next year due to COVID so they are most likely doing place holders until they get a picture of what needs extra lift to meet demand


That’s pure speculation on your part. They made changes to their schedules and just announced new routes. Why would new route announcements be place holders? Of course things are subject to change, but that is always the case.
 
PITexpress
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:59 pm

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:31 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Some G4 updates... Austin and Destin restart in April... IIRC that is a couple months earlier than this year. Key West returns in Feb and is 2x weekly until the end of the booking window in May and I'm sure it will go beyond that so it's great to see this route do well. However they just announced a few more cities from EYW that begin in Dec... not sure why we miss out on a Dec (re)start.
AZA ends in Feb... I was hoping that would be year round. SAV takes a longer break over winter and is only 2x weekly, as is JAX. PIE and PGD seem to be down a few flights next Spring as well. All in all seems to be down in overall capacity compared to this year. G4 just doesn't seem to be getting much traction here, the highest frequency I see is 4x weekly next spring. The booking window goes out to mid-May so too early to tell if ORF and RAP return.


Yes - G4 has been great to have. Would love to see them get more traction here. I think they are doing well - but obviously could be better. Trying new things shows (to me) that they at least are considering the possibility of expanded services, but the bookings need to also be there to support it. But great experiences on my last few G4 flights - aside from them not turning the lights of during an evening flight till half way through it.

I noticed that the 4th and final RAP flight was canceled, and didn't see the 3rd one go out. Did They just operate the first 2 planned RAP flights? The Black Hills/Badlands was a beautiful area and I'd love to go there again next year if G4 offers it.
 
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flyPIT
Posts: 2608
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:21 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:48 am

The ACAA posted their 2020 annual report. No surprises but here it is:
https://flypittsburgh.com/wp-content/up ... Report.pdf
 
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flyPIT
Posts: 2608
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:21 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:30 pm

July numbers are out. Total passengers up 185%, cargo up 40%.
https://flypittsburgh.com/wp-content/up ... Report.pdf
 
PITFlyer330
Posts: 515
Joined: Fri May 14, 2021 4:56 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 27, 2021 4:47 pm

I was looking at startup connect airlines who will codeshare with AA and they have said PIT to YTZ could be a market. I was sad to see porter leave the YTZ PIT route
 
Flaps
Posts: 1815
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 1:11 pm

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:06 pm

PITFlyer330 wrote:
I was looking at startup connect airlines who will codeshare with AA and they have said PIT to YTZ could be a market. I was sad to see porter leave the YTZ PIT route


PIT-YTZ on PD was full whenever there was a hockey game or football game and on weekends. Otherwise loads averaged about 15-25 pax per flight. Under the current circumstances I don't see that as a viable market without subsidy. Maybe not even with subsidy.
 
Bigant0408
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:26 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:30 pm

PITFlyer330 wrote:
I was looking at startup connect airlines who will codeshare with AA and they have said PIT to YTZ could be a market. I was sad to see porter leave the YTZ PIT route


The last I heard was that they planned to fly from YTZ to ORD, JFK, PHL, BOS & BWI and at some point domestically from BOS-PHL/BWI. I didn't hear anything about PIT but would be interesting if they did try the route out at some point.
 
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flyPIT
Posts: 2608
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:21 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:22 pm

I too am bummed PD at PIT did not work out. A great product to a great destination. A bit symbolic too… they were the first success (and failure) of the Cassotis era. Q400s simply proved to be too big for the market. For that reason I don’t have much faith in this startup adding PIT.


Is SpiceXpress still operating to PIT? I haven’t seen them on the flight trackers for a couple weeks.
 
corkscrew
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:22 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:38 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Is SpiceXpress still operating to PIT? I haven’t seen them on the flight trackers for a couple weeks.


I was just coming here to ask the same thing.

The most recent carriers/frames (Hi Fly 330s and the EuroAtlantic 777) have been using simar flight numbers but to other destinations like LCK, CMH, and EWR.

I did notice that a lot of the A340s that commenced the operation have been idle too so I'm not sure what's going on.
 
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flyPIT
Posts: 2608
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:21 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:41 am

Maybe SpiceXpress doubling up on China routes (redistributing their assets) is why they exited PIT? Or they already ran their 40 flights to PIT?

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 166_1.html

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