OLYMPIA — Paine Field in Everett is on an early list of airports that Washington officials are eyeing for future expansion to meet air travel demand as the state’s commercial aviation industry recovers from the COVID-19 pandemic.

A state commission named the Snohomish County-owned airport as one of six potential candidates, alongside Arlington Municipal Airport, Bremerton National Airport, Sanderson Field in Shelton, Tacoma Narrows Airport in Gig Harbor and Ed Carlson Memorial Field in Lewis County.

CowAnon wrote:

"Paine Field makes short list of airports that could grow," Everett Herald, 1/25:

OLYMPIA — Paine Field in Everett is on an early list of airports that Washington officials are eyeing for future expansion to meet air travel demand as the state’s commercial aviation industry recovers from the COVID-19 pandemic.

A state commission named the Snohomish County-owned airport as one of six potential candidates, alongside Arlington Municipal Airport, Bremerton National Airport, Sanderson Field in Shelton, Tacoma Narrows Airport in Gig Harbor and Ed Carlson Memorial Field in Lewis County.

https://www.heraldnet.com/business/paine-field-makes-short-list-of-airports-that-could-grow/

The Shelton and Lewis County candidates strike me as odd. Not listed is Bellingham's airport, which is a lot closer to where I live and already has commercial passenger service.

gunsontheroof wrote:

CowAnon wrote:

The Shelton and Lewis County candidates strike me as odd. Not listed is Bellingham's airport, which is a lot closer to where I live and already has commercial passenger service.

I'm surprised to see that OLM isn't on that list. It could certainly support a similar operation to PAE and is well-proportioned geographically relative to SEA to serve that purpose.

iamlucky13 wrote:

If anyone would like, the report is here:

https://wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/file ... er2020.pdf

...

I'm familiar with the South Lewis County Airport. It's currently tiny, but has lots of room around it and would have excellent access to the Interstate highway. I was told at one point that FedEx was considering building significant facility there due to being in between Seattle and Portland, so there has been interest there for quite a while in a major expansion. I do agree it's too far away from Seattle to have major appeal as a passenger airport.

I don't know why Bellingham wasn't considered.

DenverTed wrote:

As for PAE, with 787 production moved, 747 winding down, and 777 decreased, seems like there might be more pliability to expand passenger service beyond 24 flight a day capacity.

BoeingGuy wrote:

DenverTed wrote:

As for PAE, with 787 production moved, 747 winding down, and 777 decreased, seems like there might be more pliability to expand passenger service beyond 24 flight a day capacity.

I don’t think the limits on PAE passengers flights has anything to do with the number of airplanes rolling out of the Boeing factory. The 24 flight limit is a federal regulation, as I understand it. It’s unrelated to the Boeing production rate.

Having said that, I’d like to see expanded service at PAE. I live close to PAE and love the convenience. I don’t any problems with noise at all.

CowAnon wrote:

iamlucky13 wrote:

If anyone would like, the report is here:

https://wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/file ... er2020.pdf

...

I'm familiar with the South Lewis County Airport. It's currently tiny, but has lots of room around it and would have excellent access to the Interstate highway. I was told at one point that FedEx was considering building significant facility there due to being in between Seattle and Portland, so there has been interest there for quite a while in a major expansion. I do agree it's too far away from Seattle to have major appeal as a passenger airport.

I don't know why Bellingham wasn't considered.

Thanks for the link.

Not knowing anything about Lewis County aviation, I just assumed the airport mentioned in the article was the one serving Centralia and Chehalis, where the largest population center is in the county. So I'm surprised to learn that the airport in contention is actually 25 miles south of there, near I-5 exit 63. Exit numbers are equivalent to mileposts, so with downtown Seattle being at exit 164 and Bellingham airport being off exit 258, Ed Carlson Memorial Field is actually a little farther from the Seattle metro area than Bellingham. That airport might be a useful option for the half-million people in Clark County, but PDX is just at the first exit across the Columbia River on I-205 from Vancouver, and they can free-ride off the Port of Portland's efforts just like they do with shopping and the lack of an Oregon sales tax. Even Shelton seems like a better Sea-Tac alternative.

wedgetail737 wrote:

CowAnon wrote:

iamlucky13 wrote:

If anyone would like, the report is here:

https://wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/file ... er2020.pdf

...

I'm familiar with the South Lewis County Airport. It's currently tiny, but has lots of room around it and would have excellent access to the Interstate highway. I was told at one point that FedEx was considering building significant facility there due to being in between Seattle and Portland, so there has been interest there for quite a while in a major expansion. I do agree it's too far away from Seattle to have major appeal as a passenger airport.

I don't know why Bellingham wasn't considered.

Thanks for the link.

Not knowing anything about Lewis County aviation, I just assumed the airport mentioned in the article was the one serving Centralia and Chehalis, where the largest population center is in the county. So I'm surprised to learn that the airport in contention is actually 25 miles south of there, near I-5 exit 63. Exit numbers are equivalent to mileposts, so with downtown Seattle being at exit 164 and Bellingham airport being off exit 258, Ed Carlson Memorial Field is actually a little farther from the Seattle metro area than Bellingham. That airport might be a useful option for the half-million people in Clark County, but PDX is just at the first exit across the Columbia River on I-205 from Vancouver, and they can free-ride off the Port of Portland's efforts just like they do with shopping and the lack of an Oregon sales tax. Even Shelton seems like a better Sea-Tac alternative.

I don't think BLI is considered to be a Puget Sound area airport.

I remember some years ago, G4 was considering service to Kitsap Airport to LAS, as part of the running for PAE. It's too bad G4 never engaged in PAE service. Perhaps it was too close to BLI??

I hope to see regularly scheduled mainline service at PAE at some point.

BoeingGuy wrote:

wedgetail737 wrote:

CowAnon wrote:

Thanks for the link.

Not knowing anything about Lewis County aviation, I just assumed the airport mentioned in the article was the one serving Centralia and Chehalis, where the largest population center is in the county. So I'm surprised to learn that the airport in contention is actually 25 miles south of there, near I-5 exit 63. Exit numbers are equivalent to mileposts, so with downtown Seattle being at exit 164 and Bellingham airport being off exit 258, Ed Carlson Memorial Field is actually a little farther from the Seattle metro area than Bellingham. That airport might be a useful option for the half-million people in Clark County, but PDX is just at the first exit across the Columbia River on I-205 from Vancouver, and they can free-ride off the Port of Portland's efforts just like they do with shopping and the lack of an Oregon sales tax. Even Shelton seems like a better Sea-Tac alternative.

I don't think BLI is considered to be a Puget Sound area airport.

I remember some years ago, G4 was considering service to Kitsap Airport to LAS, as part of the running for PAE. It's too bad G4 never engaged in PAE service. Perhaps it was too close to BLI??

This is all I could find:

https://pugetsoundblogs.com/kitsap-cauc ... allegiant/

I hope to see regularly scheduled mainline service at PAE at some point.

What is the Kitsap County airport that you said G4 considered? Is that TIW? It only has a 5000 foot runway, so that would be a challenge.

wedgetail737 wrote:

CowAnon wrote:

iamlucky13 wrote:

If anyone would like, the report is here:

https://wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/file ... er2020.pdf

...

I'm familiar with the South Lewis County Airport. It's currently tiny, but has lots of room around it and would have excellent access to the Interstate highway. I was told at one point that FedEx was considering building significant facility there due to being in between Seattle and Portland, so there has been interest there for quite a while in a major expansion. I do agree it's too far away from Seattle to have major appeal as a passenger airport.

I don't know why Bellingham wasn't considered.

Thanks for the link.

Not knowing anything about Lewis County aviation, I just assumed the airport mentioned in the article was the one serving Centralia and Chehalis, where the largest population center is in the county. So I'm surprised to learn that the airport in contention is actually 25 miles south of there, near I-5 exit 63. Exit numbers are equivalent to mileposts, so with downtown Seattle being at exit 164 and Bellingham airport being off exit 258, Ed Carlson Memorial Field is actually a little farther from the Seattle metro area than Bellingham. That airport might be a useful option for the half-million people in Clark County, but PDX is just at the first exit across the Columbia River on I-205 from Vancouver, and they can free-ride off the Port of Portland's efforts just like they do with shopping and the lack of an Oregon sales tax. Even Shelton seems like a better Sea-Tac alternative.

I don't think BLI is considered to be a Puget Sound area airport.

I remember some years ago, G4 was considering service to Kitsap Airport to LAS, as part of the running for PAE. It's too bad G4 never engaged in PAE service. Perhaps it was too close to BLI??

I hope to see regularly scheduled mainline service at PAE at some point.

frmrCapCadet wrote:

The Kitsap County airport has a Port of Bremerton industrial area on the north end. It is surrounded by a lot of forest land. to the east, south, and across the highway to the west. And its all relatively flat land. It could easily encompass a 10K meter runway, and huge areas could be added to the Port for whatever aviation needs there are, even future industrial areas. My thoughts are that the State and County should negotiate purchase rights for as much land as the airport might need.

wedgetail737 wrote:

BoeingGuy wrote:

wedgetail737 wrote:

I don't think BLI is considered to be a Puget Sound area airport.

I remember some years ago, G4 was considering service to Kitsap Airport to LAS, as part of the running for PAE. It's too bad G4 never engaged in PAE service. Perhaps it was too close to BLI??

This is all I could find:

https://pugetsoundblogs.com/kitsap-cauc ... allegiant/

I hope to see regularly scheduled mainline service at PAE at some point.

What is the Kitsap County airport that you said G4 considered? Is that TIW? It only has a 5000 foot runway, so that would be a challenge.

frmrCapCadet wrote:

http://www.chronline.com/news/it-s-not-going-to-happen-commissioners-dismiss-residents-fears-of-major-expansion-of-toledo/article_016c00f0-668a-11eb-8672-2f3811d7438e.html

Toledo and Lewis County officials say that airport is not going to be in the running. By the way, one other advantage of the Kitsap Airport as a major regional is that it is likely to find a very supportive political environment.

BoeingGuy wrote:

wedgetail737 wrote:

BoeingGuy wrote:

What is the Kitsap County airport that you said G4 considered? Is that TIW? It only has a 5000 foot runway, so that would be a challenge.

I don’t see that you wrote anything in this post responding to my comment. I always enjoy reading your posts, so was interested in what you have to say.

gunsontheroof wrote:

I don't really see the logic in investing in a new airport anywhere south of Olympia. Once you're south of the capital, it's a pretty clean shot to PDX on most days and with Puget Sound traffic, PDX is probably a quicker trip than SEA much of the time. I still maintain that regional authorities are going to need to find a way to make an existing facility work as a reliever airport, but there doesn't seem to be much enthusiasm from the communities with the most viable facilities.

Curious to see TCM on the list in the link. I suppose it has room for a runway extension and a small terminal/ramp, but I'd expect fierce community resistance to any such project. PWT is an interesting proposal as it has plenty of room to work with, but it might not be in the best location to be an appealing option for the number of passengers you'd be looking to pull from SEA as a relief airport.

wedgetail737 wrote:

gunsontheroof wrote:

I don't really see the logic in investing in a new airport anywhere south of Olympia. Once you're south of the capital, it's a pretty clean shot to PDX on most days and with Puget Sound traffic, PDX is probably a quicker trip than SEA much of the time. I still maintain that regional authorities are going to need to find a way to make an existing facility work as a reliever airport, but there doesn't seem to be much enthusiasm from the communities with the most viable facilities.

Curious to see TCM on the list in the link. I suppose it has room for a runway extension and a small terminal/ramp, but I'd expect fierce community resistance to any such project. PWT is an interesting proposal as it has plenty of room to work with, but it might not be in the best location to be an appealing option for the number of passengers you'd be looking to pull from SEA as a relief airport.

I wonder why JBLM wasn't considered. They already have a long runway, lots of land and direct access to both I-5 and 512. Couldn't they consider setting JBLM like CHS?

gunsontheroof wrote:

wedgetail737 wrote:

gunsontheroof wrote:

I don't really see the logic in investing in a new airport anywhere south of Olympia. Once you're south of the capital, it's a pretty clean shot to PDX on most days and with Puget Sound traffic, PDX is probably a quicker trip than SEA much of the time. I still maintain that regional authorities are going to need to find a way to make an existing facility work as a reliever airport, but there doesn't seem to be much enthusiasm from the communities with the most viable facilities.

Curious to see TCM on the list in the link. I suppose it has room for a runway extension and a small terminal/ramp, but I'd expect fierce community resistance to any such project. PWT is an interesting proposal as it has plenty of room to work with, but it might not be in the best location to be an appealing option for the number of passengers you'd be looking to pull from SEA as a relief airport.

I wonder why JBLM wasn't considered. They already have a long runway, lots of land and direct access to both I-5 and 512. Couldn't they consider setting JBLM like CHS?

This article covers a lot of the issues that have been raised in past threads around here. Interesting that planning for the military side of TCM to close is on anyone's mind, I don't see any reason why that would be necessary with so much available space on the east side of the field:

https://thelens.news/2020/07/24/could-j ... e-airport/

TCM really would be a great option, as transportation access would be much simpler, there's room for a larger operation and would probably (...) be the least impeded by NIMBYs. Whether or not the army is willing to have a serious discussion about it remains to be seen. One difference between TCM and an operation like CHS is that the field is adjacent to an enormous base and one of the approach paths passes very near active firing ranges.

While recent feedback from commission members indicates a preference for greater short-term focus on expanding existing facilities, some members said at the commission’s July 21 meeting that a long-term solution may require significant changes – such as relocating Joint Base Lewis-McChord (JBLM) from its current location along Interstate 5 to central or eastern Washington and using that site for a new airport.
...
JBLM has a base population of 210,000, making it the world’s fourth largest military installation. Fort Lewis spans a total of 87,000 acres, while Sea-Tac covers 2,500 acres. The base is located within the central Puget Sound region that includes four of the top five fastest-growing counties in the state.

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:

Just found a video of someone landing at BFI on board JSX...

https://youtu.be/IReEXic3uaM

Are they still offering flights from BFI? Or have they been temporarily stopped?

The Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China (COMAC) has quietly studied two West Coast sites over the past few years for a major new research, development, engineering and business center for its emerging C919 single-aisle passenger jet, the Puget Sound Business Journal has learned.
...
“They were all hot and heavy to do stuff, and then it just kind of went away and I haven’t heard from them in over a year,” the source said. “They had a guy in charge of that office who had a lot of grand ideas, but you never know just what the politics are back home with the Chinese.”
...
The second goal, according to two sources, was to have a U.S.-based location to meet potential suppliers, reduce foreign travel and more easily negotiate contracts, make payments and do business on U.S.- style timelines.

CowAnon wrote:

Here's a long article from the Puget Sound Business Journal last month (behind a paywall) about COMAC's under-the-radar efforts to turn Weyerhaeuser's old headquarters into an R&D center in 2019:

COMAC checks out Boeing's backyard: The Chinese jet maker explored U.S. expansion in Federal Way, then suddenly went silent

Wneast wrote:

Is there adds that could made by southwest at Geg ? Or more Alaska flights ?

MaxTrimm wrote:

Wneast wrote:

Is there adds that could made by southwest at Geg ? Or more Alaska flights ?

I’ve always been curious about AS expansion to GEG. On one hand, I bet they could add several different places that would work well. On the other, for every passenger they send direct, they’re losing a passenger connecting through SEA. There’s just not much they can do that doesn’t defeat the purpose of near-hourly service to SEA.

Wneast wrote:

MaxTrimm wrote:

Wneast wrote:

Is there adds that could made by southwest at Geg ? Or more Alaska flights ?

I’ve always been curious about AS expansion to GEG. On one hand, I bet they could add several different places that would work well. On the other, for every passenger they send direct, they’re losing a passenger connecting through SEA. There’s just not much they can do that doesn’t defeat the purpose of near-hourly service to SEA.

Very true but with all the people moving to there people aren’t going want always connect to through Seattle where do you think they could add ?

QXorVX wrote:

Wneast wrote:

MaxTrimm wrote:

I’ve always been curious about AS expansion to GEG. On one hand, I bet they could add several different places that would work well. On the other, for every passenger they send direct, they’re losing a passenger connecting through SEA. There’s just not much they can do that doesn’t defeat the purpose of near-hourly service to SEA.

Very true but with all the people moving to there people aren’t going want always connect to through Seattle where do you think they could add ?

I think the most successful non-stops from PAE are a good signal as to what might work from GEG net positive (stimulating enough demand / snagging it from other carriers for those with a non-stop preference). Considering that what they pretty much have left is PHX or LAS since most of the California routes are already operated by AS. Not sure if running against two ULCCs to Vegas would be the most prudent move.

Wneast wrote:

QXorVX wrote:

Wneast wrote:

Very true but with all the people moving to there people aren’t going want always connect to through Seattle where do you think they could add ?

I think the most successful non-stops from PAE are a good signal as to what might work from GEG net positive (stimulating enough demand / snagging it from other carriers for those with a non-stop preference). Considering that what they pretty much have left is PHX or LAS since most of the California routes are already operated by AS. Not sure if running against two ULCCs to Vegas would be the most prudent move.

What about Hawaii or something else

MaxTrimm wrote:

Wneast wrote:

QXorVX wrote:

I think the most successful non-stops from PAE are a good signal as to what might work from GEG net positive (stimulating enough demand / snagging it from other carriers for those with a non-stop preference). Considering that what they pretty much have left is PHX or LAS since most of the California routes are already operated by AS. Not sure if running against two ULCCs to Vegas would be the most prudent move.

What about Hawaii or something else

A flight to Hawaii would fly DIRECTLY over PDX or SEA. Unless theres sufficient local traffic, there really isn’t too many places they can add outside of west coast hotspots. I think the PAE analogy was accurate. An LAX/SFO/SAN/SJC/SNA/LAS/PHX operation seems like the most realistic adds. MAYBE YVR one day.

ER757 wrote:

Here's an article on the artwork installed in the new IAF at SEA. Looks pretty cool

https://www.portseattle.org/blog/sea-ar ... challenges

717atOGG wrote:

Looks like AA will be adding ORD-GEG on an A319 this summer, running it daily from June 3 to September 7. Nice to see AA filling this gap in their network; any guesses as to what’s next for GEG?

https://thepointsguy.com/news/american- ... ew-routes/

jplatts wrote:

While AC has nonstop service to YYZ from SEA, AS or DL adding SEA-YYZ nonstop service once demand recovers might be a possibility with the FF base that both AS and DL have in the Seattle market and with AS being in oneworld, DL being in SkyTeam, and AC being in Star Alliance.

YYZ is only one of two North American markets with nonstop service from SEA (along with MSN) that doesn't have nonstop service from SEA on a oneworld or SkyTeam airline.

While AS previously had served YYZ nonstop from SEA 30 years ago, AS pulled out of YYZ in 1992. AS might be able to make SEA-YYZ nonstop service work after demand recovers with AS being a much bigger airline than it was back when AS last served YYZ nonstop from SEA.

DL adding SEA-YYZ nonstop service might be a possibility with DL having a hub at SEA and DL's partner WS having a hub at YYZ along with the connections opportunities that would be available at both SEA (on DL to Asia, Alaska, and the Pacific Northwest) and YYZ (on WS to Eastern Canada).

While AS has a much bigger presence at SEA and AS serves more contiguous U.S. destinations nonstop from SEA than DL does, DL would have advantages over AS on SEA-YYZ if DL adds SEA-YYZ nonstop service due to the longstanding DL presence at YYZ, the DL-WS partnership, the WS YYZ hub, the WS FF base in Eastern Canada, and the connecting opportunities that are there on the YYZ end of the route.

Is there any possibility of AS re-adding SEA-YYZ nonstop service or DL adding SEA-YYZ nonstop service once demand recovers?

jplatts wrote:

While AC has nonstop service to YYZ from SEA, AS or DL adding SEA-YYZ nonstop service once demand recovers might be a possibility with the FF base that both AS and DL have in the Seattle market and with AS being in oneworld, DL being in SkyTeam, and AC being in Star Alliance.

YYZ is only one of two North American markets with nonstop service from SEA (along with MSN) that doesn't have nonstop service from SEA on a oneworld or SkyTeam airline.

While AS previously had served YYZ nonstop from SEA 30 years ago, AS pulled out of YYZ in 1992. AS might be able to make SEA-YYZ nonstop service work after demand recovers with AS being a much bigger airline than it was back when AS last served YYZ nonstop from SEA.

DL adding SEA-YYZ nonstop service might be a possibility with DL having a hub at SEA and DL's partner WS having a hub at YYZ along with the connections opportunities that would be available at both SEA (on DL to Asia, Alaska, and the Pacific Northwest) and YYZ (on WS to Eastern Canada).

While AS has a much bigger presence at SEA and AS serves more contiguous U.S. destinations nonstop from SEA than DL does, DL would have advantages over AS on SEA-YYZ if DL adds SEA-YYZ nonstop service due to the longstanding DL presence at YYZ, the DL-WS partnership, the WS YYZ hub, the WS FF base in Eastern Canada, and the connecting opportunities that are there on the YYZ end of the route.

Is there any possibility of AS re-adding SEA-YYZ nonstop service or DL adding SEA-YYZ nonstop service once demand recovers?

wedgetail737 wrote:

jplatts wrote:

While AC has nonstop service to YYZ from SEA, AS or DL adding SEA-YYZ nonstop service once demand recovers might be a possibility with the FF base that both AS and DL have in the Seattle market and with AS being in oneworld, DL being in SkyTeam, and AC being in Star Alliance.

YYZ is only one of two North American markets with nonstop service from SEA (along with MSN) that doesn't have nonstop service from SEA on a oneworld or SkyTeam airline.

While AS previously had served YYZ nonstop from SEA 30 years ago, AS pulled out of YYZ in 1992. AS might be able to make SEA-YYZ nonstop service work after demand recovers with AS being a much bigger airline than it was back when AS last served YYZ nonstop from SEA.

DL adding SEA-YYZ nonstop service might be a possibility with DL having a hub at SEA and DL's partner WS having a hub at YYZ along with the connections opportunities that would be available at both SEA (on DL to Asia, Alaska, and the Pacific Northwest) and YYZ (on WS to Eastern Canada).

While AS has a much bigger presence at SEA and AS serves more contiguous U.S. destinations nonstop from SEA than DL does, DL would have advantages over AS on SEA-YYZ if DL adds SEA-YYZ nonstop service due to the longstanding DL presence at YYZ, the DL-WS partnership, the WS YYZ hub, the WS FF base in Eastern Canada, and the connecting opportunities that are there on the YYZ end of the route.

Is there any possibility of AS re-adding SEA-YYZ nonstop service or DL adding SEA-YYZ nonstop service once demand recovers?

Technically, didn't AS only fly the LAX-YYZ route? I remember back in the 1980's that you could fly TG between SEA and YYZ. I could AS flying that route...less likely DL. But who knows. I also hope AC decides to reinstate YUL-SEA.

gunsontheroof wrote:

wedgetail737 wrote:

jplatts wrote:

While AC has nonstop service to YYZ from SEA, AS or DL adding SEA-YYZ nonstop service once demand recovers might be a possibility with the FF base that both AS and DL have in the Seattle market and with AS being in oneworld, DL being in SkyTeam, and AC being in Star Alliance.

YYZ is only one of two North American markets with nonstop service from SEA (along with MSN) that doesn't have nonstop service from SEA on a oneworld or SkyTeam airline.

While AS previously had served YYZ nonstop from SEA 30 years ago, AS pulled out of YYZ in 1992. AS might be able to make SEA-YYZ nonstop service work after demand recovers with AS being a much bigger airline than it was back when AS last served YYZ nonstop from SEA.

DL adding SEA-YYZ nonstop service might be a possibility with DL having a hub at SEA and DL's partner WS having a hub at YYZ along with the connections opportunities that would be available at both SEA (on DL to Asia, Alaska, and the Pacific Northwest) and YYZ (on WS to Eastern Canada).

While AS has a much bigger presence at SEA and AS serves more contiguous U.S. destinations nonstop from SEA than DL does, DL would have advantages over AS on SEA-YYZ if DL adds SEA-YYZ nonstop service due to the longstanding DL presence at YYZ, the DL-WS partnership, the WS YYZ hub, the WS FF base in Eastern Canada, and the connecting opportunities that are there on the YYZ end of the route.

Is there any possibility of AS re-adding SEA-YYZ nonstop service or DL adding SEA-YYZ nonstop service once demand recovers?

Technically, didn't AS only fly the LAX-YYZ route? I remember back in the 1980's that you could fly TG between SEA and YYZ. I could AS flying that route...less likely DL. But who knows. I also hope AC decides to reinstate YUL-SEA.

You are correct, it was LAX-SEA with the Mad Dog back in the mid-1980s. AS has never operated SEA-YYZ. I don't believe they flew SEA-anywhere east of the Mississippi until 2000 or so.