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asuflyer
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4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:02 pm

Celebratory New Year's Eve gunfire in Beirut caused chaos around the city resulting the death of a woman and damages to property. 4 MEA aircraft including an A321NEO's which was delivered in the past few months were hit by stray bullets.

Image

Image

Image

https://www.the961.com/mea-new-planes-h ... y-bullets/

https://twitter.com/salmanonline/status ... bullets%2F
 
Antarius
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:04 pm

Celebratory gunfire continues to be one of the stupidest things I've ever encountered in my life.

This is why people need to study physics.
Militant Centrist
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davidjohnson6
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:11 pm

Ignoring the usual "that'll be fine with a bit of speed tape" comments that I expect to be here within 5 milliseconds..... how difficult is it to fix this and make the aircraft serviceable ? Does this also mean the aircraft resale value goes to zero permanently ? What recourse does a lessor typically have in such a scenario where the aircraft can be repaired instead of being a write off ? Does aircraft insurance typically cover this kind of thing, when it's presumably not an act of war ?
Last edited by davidjohnson6 on Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Noshow
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:13 pm

It does not seem to be pure coincidence when FOUR airplanes get hit.
 
Antarius
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:31 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Ignoring the usual "that'll be fine with a bit of speed tape" comments that I expect to be here within 5 milliseconds..... how difficult is it to fix this and make the aircraft serviceable ? Does this also mean the aircraft resale value goes to zero permanently ? What recourse does a lessor typically have in such a scenario where the aircraft can be repaired instead of being a write off ? Does aircraft insurance typically cover this kind of thing, when it's presumably not an act of war ?


The resale value does not go to zero. It appears to be relatively minor, not majorly different than a taxiing collision or large hail. It should be fixed after assessment.

Recourse for the owner (airline or lessor) is with insurance. I don't believe this would constitute a "act of God" or force majeure type clause, but I'd have to defer to someone who knows more about aircraft insurance to be sure.
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Antarius
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:33 pm

Noshow wrote:
It does not seem to be pure coincidence when FOUR airplanes get hit.


Not really. If they were parked in a similar area/pad all it would take is a single idiot with an AK47 to run their clip in the air.
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Noshow
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:34 pm

If it's just the skin like above they can be patched. Battle damage repair, any military's standard capability.
 
VSMUT
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:34 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Ignoring the usual "that'll be fine with a bit of speed tape" comments that I expect to be here within 5 milliseconds..... how difficult is it to fix this and make the aircraft serviceable ? Does this also mean the aircraft resale value goes to zero permanently ? What recourse does a lessor typically have in such a scenario where the aircraft can be repaired instead of being a write off ? Does aircraft insurance typically cover this kind of thing, when it's presumably not an act of war ?


It is fairly easy to patch such a hole. There have been some stories about how 737 fuselages, when they are transported by train to the assembly factory are occasionally shot at by hillbillies. Those get patched up as well. It isn't too different from hail, rocks/debris being thrown up from the runway and bird strikes. Definitely annoying, but also repairable.

This link has some photos of a Libyan Arab A320 that is being patched up after fighting in Tripoli airport around 2015:
https://theloadstar.com/exclusive-image ... i-airport/

Image

A single patched bullet hole probably won't affect the value too much, but stuff like that Libyan A320 will probably start affecting it.
 
SRQLOT
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:42 pm

Unfortunately hundreds of thousands of white storks die flying thru Lebanon, and millions of other birds due to people there shooting in the air for fun.
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ltbewr
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:47 pm

Sadly, Lebanon is not the only place for such gun shooting happens on New Years Day and sadly sometimes goes beyond vandalism to the death of innocents (Los Angeles is a big place for it).
 
Noshow
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:51 pm

What energy would a projectile have if you shoot, say, an AK-47 up into the sky when it comes back down and hits something? As in just falling down.
This would certainly not be a high energy hole like the one shown above right?
 
Tack
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:00 pm

Noshow wrote:
What energy would a projectile have if you shoot, say, an AK-47 up into the sky when it comes back down and hits something? As in just falling down.
This would certainly not be a high energy hole like the one shown above right?


Straight up? Only about 10-15% of the energy. But if it was shot at an angle, it could impact with pretty good energy. Sorry, but that’s about all the physics I’ve retained from school, which ain’t much. I’m betting there are a few egg heads here that are infinitely more knowledgeable than my weak attempt at wanting to be smart.
 
Antarius
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:33 pm

Tack wrote:
Noshow wrote:
What energy would a projectile have if you shoot, say, an AK-47 up into the sky when it comes back down and hits something? As in just falling down.
This would certainly not be a high energy hole like the one shown above right?


Straight up? Only about 10-15% of the energy. But if it was shot at an angle, it could impact with pretty good energy. Sorry, but that’s about all the physics I’ve retained from school, which ain’t much. I’m betting there are a few egg heads here that are infinitely more knowledgeable than my weak attempt at wanting to be smart.


Yup. Straight up typically results in the bullet losing its spin and tumbling, which makes it's force and risk less. At an angle, the bullet can maintain it's rotation and therefore it's velocity.

And it's a guarantee that the bullets were fired at an angle and not up as the damage is on the side of the aircraft and it's unlikely that someone was standing next to the plane and shooting upwards.
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kcpoole
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:48 am

Yes the can be lethal, Mythbusters answered this question in episode 50
https://mythresults.com/episode50
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:54 am

Rotation equals stability, not velocity which is a function of air density and gravity.
 
Sokes
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:46 am

The airport should put up some signs:
"Shooting in the air is not allowed here. "
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Antarius
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:12 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Rotation equals stability, not velocity which is a function of air density and gravity.


And stability on a pointed object results in less air resistance for a fixed air density. Less air resistance leads to less deceleration which leads to higher speed.
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MEA-707
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:09 pm

I sometimes wonder why insurance companies let brand new A-321neo's and 330s fly and especially be parked in places like TIP and BEY. Insurance was the main reason MEA could only fly old 707s til the civil war was over in 1991. Maybe the low interest rates make them more disposable.
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bennett123
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:28 pm

Perhaps because the airlines operating those aircraft are based in Libya or Lebanon.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:54 pm

Wow, and I thought people in my country were irresponsible. It's almost as dangerous as going to a New Year Eve party.
 
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zeke
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:04 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
how difficult is it to fix this and make the aircraft serviceable ? Does this also mean the aircraft resale value goes to zero permanently ? What recourse does a lessor typically have in such a scenario where the aircraft can be repaired instead of being a write off ? Does aircraft insurance typically cover this kind of thing, when it's presumably not an act of war ?


Reasonably straightforward to repair this, you will notice that the windows are blanked off so it would mean something is inside like galley equipment or a lavatory which also would repair/inspection. Once repaired it should have no lasting impact on aircraft value. My guess the airline will repair it out of their own maintenance budget.

My only surprise is the apparent large caliber of bullet in one of the photos in comparison with the size of the rivet heads.
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AsoRock
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:10 pm

Such stupid custom, I’m Arab myself and this is just stupid. Not much to celebrate in Lebanon anyways with the country imploding on itself in all fields.
 
alasizon
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:53 pm

MEA-707 wrote:
I sometimes wonder why insurance companies let brand new A-321neo's and 330s fly and especially be parked in places like TIP and BEY. Insurance was the main reason MEA could only fly old 707s til the civil war was over in 1991. Maybe the low interest rates make them more disposable.


Insurance companies don't have a say in where the aircraft operates, their choice is strictly in how much of a premium to charge and if they refuse to offer insurance due to deeming those carriers too much of a risk, someone will always step up.

Lebanon isn't any more dangerous for aircraft than half of the nearby players so there is no reason to really deny insurance. Sure, MEA probably pays a higher premium than if they were located in Turkey or Saudi Arabia but it is probably less than being based in Syria, Iraq or Iran. I would guesstimate it would be on par with Jordan.
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smartplane
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:14 pm

alasizon wrote:
MEA-707 wrote:
I sometimes wonder why insurance companies let brand new A-321neo's and 330s fly and especially be parked in places like TIP and BEY. Insurance was the main reason MEA could only fly old 707s til the civil war was over in 1991. Maybe the low interest rates make them more disposable.


Insurance companies don't have a say in where the aircraft operates, their choice is strictly in how much of a premium to charge and if they refuse to offer insurance due to deeming those carriers too much of a risk, someone will always step up.

Lebanon isn't any more dangerous for aircraft than half of the nearby players so there is no reason to really deny insurance. Sure, MEA probably pays a higher premium than if they were located in Turkey or Saudi Arabia but it is probably less than being based in Syria, Iraq or Iran. I would guesstimate it would be on par with Jordan.

Commercial aircraft insurance isn't one size fits all. There are comprehensive policies, but for certain parts of the World these are often unbundled.

The insurance industry risk grades airports and countries, using industry experience and input from IATA.

If aircraft are leased or have security over them, the beneficial owner/s set insurance cover parameters, not the operators, which by default may preclude them from visiting certain countries / airports. Obviously if the operator is based in a higher risk country / airport, concluding the transaction implies approval to base and operate the fleet there.

Operators with schedules to high risk countries / airports will generally allocate specific aircraft so higher premiums are incurred just on the allocated aircraft, rather than incurring a fleet-wide surcharge. For example EK A340 operations in the later years. Some cargo operators allocate a specific aircraft to high risk / high premium routes. Other operators manage on a needs basis, though insurers charge a fee to make these changes if too frequent.

Beneficial owners certainly have a say where aircraft are based and operated, or rather where they are not, but usually this is when funding negotiations are concluded (though could be later if a destination status changes, or the operator wants to add a route).

Insurance companies influence is via premiums, and ultimately by declining or removing cover.

Operators can opt to self-insure certain risks (for example hull on ground, but not passenger and crew liability), but if there is a whisker of dollars owed or secured against the aircraft, this discretion will be removed by the beneficial owner/s.
 
Sooner787
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:35 pm

Hell , Arlington, TX , a DFW suburb 15-20 minutes south of DFW Airport,
had 4 people killed by celebratory gunfire on NYE. Arlington Police also
confronted 3-4 guys firing an AK-47 into the air. The idiots responded by
opening fire on the police. Thankfully they're bad shots, no officers were injured.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:40 pm

smartplane wrote:
alasizon wrote:
MEA-707 wrote:
I sometimes wonder why insurance companies let brand new A-321neo's and 330s fly and especially be parked in places like TIP and BEY. Insurance was the main reason MEA could only fly old 707s til the civil war was over in 1991. Maybe the low interest rates make them more disposable.


Insurance companies don't have a say in where the aircraft operates, their choice is strictly in how much of a premium to charge and if they refuse to offer insurance due to deeming those carriers too much of a risk, someone will always step up.

Lebanon isn't any more dangerous for aircraft than half of the nearby players so there is no reason to really deny insurance. Sure, MEA probably pays a higher premium than if they were located in Turkey or Saudi Arabia but it is probably less than being based in Syria, Iraq or Iran. I would guesstimate it would be on par with Jordan.

Commercial aircraft insurance isn't one size fits all. There are comprehensive policies, but for certain parts of the World these are often unbundled.

The insurance industry risk grades airports and countries, using industry experience and input from IATA.

If aircraft are leased or have security over them, the beneficial owner/s set insurance cover parameters, not the operators, which by default may preclude them from visiting certain countries / airports. Obviously if the operator is based in a higher risk country / airport, concluding the transaction implies approval to base and operate the fleet there.

Operators with schedules to high risk countries / airports will generally allocate specific aircraft so higher premiums are incurred just on the allocated aircraft, rather than incurring a fleet-wide surcharge. For example EK A340 operations in the later years. Some cargo operators allocate a specific aircraft to high risk / high premium routes. Other operators manage on a needs basis, though insurers charge a fee to make these changes if too frequent.

Beneficial owners certainly have a say where aircraft are based and operated, or rather where they are not, but usually this is when funding negotiations are concluded (though could be later if a destination status changes, or the operator wants to add a route).

Insurance companies influence is via premiums, and ultimately by declining or removing cover.

Operators can opt to self-insure certain risks (for example hull on ground, but not passenger and crew liability), but if there is a whisker of dollars owed or secured against the aircraft, this discretion will be removed by the beneficial owner/s.

This sums it up. Insurance carriers calculate risk and charge accordingly. Every bit of damage adjusts risk up.

Let us just say 2020 will adjust insurance rates in many locations.

I appreciate your insight into the finance and insurance side of the industry. That effects the business case on the availability or lack of availability.

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PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:59 pm

Within every nationality and ethnic group, there are always those who feel the need to "compensate" for their shortcomings. "Celebratory gunfire" is a phrase made up to make it sound cute, but it is one teeny-tiny step forward in evolution from the chimpanzees finding a black monolith and discovering the joy of violence when flinging bones at the structure. You want to fire your weapons? Find a firing range.

And this is a worldwide problem, especially in the United States. We have always been told, growing up, not to go outside at New Year's, just in case of a stray bullet. And year after year, we got the report that someone in the U.S. had been killed, so it truly can happen anywhere to anyone at any time. It just takes one idiot feeling particularly, well, "in need of proving their alpha-nature".

It is quite sad, however, that in addition to the loss of life, Beirut airport has, once again, had its planes struck by weapons. With such a long history of violence at this airport, BEY has spent many years trying to move away from it and take its place as a modern and safe facility. But this time, instead of passions or an agenda being the cause, this time it was just stupidity.

The planes can be repaired. Paying for it will be up to the insurance company and the airline, but it will get done.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:41 pm

alasizon wrote:
MEA-707 wrote:
I sometimes wonder why insurance companies let brand new A-321neo's and 330s fly and especially be parked in places like TIP and BEY. Insurance was the main reason MEA could only fly old 707s til the civil war was over in 1991. Maybe the low interest rates make them more disposable.


Insurance companies don't have a say in where the aircraft operates, their choice is strictly in how much of a premium to charge and if they refuse to offer insurance due to deeming those carriers too much of a risk, someone will always step up.

Lebanon isn't any more dangerous for aircraft than half of the nearby players so there is no reason to really deny insurance. Sure, MEA probably pays a higher premium than if they were located in Turkey or Saudi Arabia but it is probably less than being based in Syria, Iraq or Iran. I would guesstimate it would be on par with Jordan.

I'm pretty sure insurance companies will clearly refuse to insure an aircraft when operated in this or that country; they do it all the time for other vehicles.
 
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RWA380
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:27 am

smartplane wrote:
alasizon wrote:
MEA-707 wrote:
I sometimes wonder why insurance companies let brand new A-321neo's and 330s fly and especially be parked in places like TIP and BEY. Insurance was the main reason MEA could only fly old 707s til the civil war was over in 1991. Maybe the low interest rates make them more disposable.


Insurance companies don't have a say in where the aircraft operates, their choice is strictly in how much of a premium to charge and if they refuse to offer insurance due to deeming those carriers too much of a risk, someone will always step up.

Lebanon isn't any more dangerous for aircraft than half of the nearby players so there is no reason to really deny insurance. Sure, MEA probably pays a higher premium than if they were located in Turkey or Saudi Arabia but it is probably less than being based in Syria, Iraq or Iran. I would guesstimate it would be on par with Jordan.

Commercial aircraft insurance isn't one size fits all. There are comprehensive policies, but for certain parts of the World these are often unbundled.

The insurance industry risk grades airports and countries, using industry experience and input from IATA.

If aircraft are leased or have security over them, the beneficial owner/s set insurance cover parameters, not the operators, which by default may preclude them from visiting certain countries / airports. Obviously if the operator is based in a higher risk country / airport, concluding the transaction implies approval to base and operate the fleet there.

Operators with schedules to high risk countries / airports will generally allocate specific aircraft so higher premiums are incurred just on the allocated aircraft, rather than incurring a fleet-wide surcharge. For example EK A340 operations in the later years. Some cargo operators allocate a specific aircraft to high risk / high premium routes. Other operators manage on a needs basis, though insurers charge a fee to make these changes if too frequent.

Beneficial owners certainly have a say where aircraft are based and operated, or rather where they are not, but usually this is when funding negotiations are concluded (though could be later if a destination status changes, or the operator wants to add a route).

Insurance companies influence is via premiums, and ultimately by declining or removing cover.

Operators can opt to self-insure certain risks (for example hull on ground, but not passenger and crew liability), but if there is a whisker of dollars owed or secured against the aircraft, this discretion will be removed by the beneficial owner/s.


Well thought out reply, thanks! You are correct that there are usually no bundlig packages for aircraft insurance, but that applies to everywhere in the world. Airline & aircraft insurance is super complicated vs your home or auto policy.

In this instance, I would imagine the lease holder has requirements on minimums to protect their interests. If the carrier is unable to secure that level of insurance with their provider, they switch providers & buy other aircraft. but due diligence is always done in advance of any LOI or PO.

There is always someone willing to insure anything legally, but the cost may be astronomical. IE ... Oregon buys their forest fire insurance from Lloyds of London, They are the only ones who will insure it.

Then the carrier needs to protect itself from liability & damage to their leased or purchased aircraft, if leased the carrier must insure via a third party. If it's an entirely owned aircraft carrier is found solvent enough to self insure, than the self insurance is allowed.

You will see the rates in Lebanon likely far higher than say Canada. But then it's the cost of doing business in the region, the carrier has taken it into account of it's operating expenses already.
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BA
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:12 am

MEA will likely fix this themselves, they have their own MRO:

https://www.masco.com.lb/Services/aircraft-maintenance/
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Thenoflyzone
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:19 am

Stuff like this is the reason why AC will never be allowed to fly YUL-BEY.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
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ua900
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Re: 4 MEA aircraft damaged by gunfire at BEY

Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:15 am

Tack wrote:
Noshow wrote:
What energy would a projectile have if you shoot, say, an AK-47 up into the sky when it comes back down and hits something? As in just falling down.
This would certainly not be a high energy hole like the one shown above right?


Straight up? Only about 10-15% of the energy. But if it was shot at an angle, it could impact with pretty good energy. Sorry, but that’s about all the physics I’ve retained from school, which ain’t much. I’m betting there are a few egg heads here that are infinitely more knowledgeable than my weak attempt at wanting to be smart.


Perhaps it's less energy, but any decent shooter won't shoot straight up due to the angle in which the bullet will come down, even at 10-15% ;-)

Sokes wrote:
The airport should put up some signs:
"Shooting in the air is not allowed here. "


I could see this be good for banks too. Anyone's guess whether it would work, though you'd think there would be more signs if it did. :D

AsoRock wrote:
Such stupid custom, I’m Arab myself and this is just stupid. Not much to celebrate in Lebanon anyways with the country imploding on itself in all fields.


Maybe they were Boeing guys who didn't like the 10,000th A320 stickers since that appears to be one of the aircraft that got hit. :rotfl:

Hopefully, things will be better for the world in 2021, including Lebanon.
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