Here's the breakdown by equipment type as of July, 1977:

707 passenger: 13
707 freighter: 4
727-100: 43, plus 1x week EA DTW-BDA
727-200: 38
737: 4
747: 7
BAC 1-11: 6
Beech 99: 5
Cessna 402: 4
Convair 580: 25
DC-8-20/51 passenger: 1
DC-8-54 freighter: 2
DC-8-61: 3
DC-9-10: 6
DC-9-30: 49
DC-9-50: 8
DC-10-10: 13
DC-10-40: 9
L-1011: 3
Swearingen Metro: 11

Note that the number of L-1011 and DC-8-61 flights are lower in July than they would have been in February, because Delta used 727s on many flights to Florida in the summer, that they used larger aircraft on during the winter.

WA707atMSP wrote:

Eastern and United were much smaller at DTW than people remember. Here are the daily flights from the July, 1977 OAG:

Air Wisconsin: 11
Allegheny: 14
American: 39 passenger, plus 4 freighter
British Airways: 1
Braniff: 3
Delta: 39
Eastern: 7, plus a 1x week DTW-BDA flight
Heussler: 2
Lake Central: 2
North Central: 52
Northwest: 37
Ozark: 2
Pan Am: 1
Skystream: 5
Southern: 4
TWA: 6
United: 23 passenger, plus 2 freighter

Although North Central had the most flights, their flights operated with smaller aircraft than the major airlines' flights did, so they were not Detroit's #1 airline in terms of passengers flown. American and Delta were DTW's top two airlines by passengers; American was probably DTW's leader by RPMs because so many of their passengers were flying to California.

I agree that AA and DL were likely the largest carriers at DTW in that era in terms of passengers carried. AA alone had near hourly 727 service to LGA and then their substantial lift to California often using DC-10's. Eastern did indeed have a small operation during the summer months but its worth mentioning they did add additional Florida sections for their winter season. I remember the EA L-1011 that would depart DTW every morning around 10:00am for MIA.

It's fun remembering the old days. Thanks for assembling the data.

Seat1F wrote:

I agree that AA and DL were likely the largest carriers at DTW in that era in terms of passengers carried. AA alone had near hourly 727 service to LGA and then their substantial lift to California often using DC-10's. Eastern did indeed have a small operation during the summer months but its worth mentioning they did add additional Florida sections for their winter season. I remember the EA L-1011 that would depart DTW every morning around 10:00am for MIA.

It's fun remembering the old days. Thanks for assembling the data.

Eastern added a few flights in the winter, but they were still pretty small. Here's EA's Jan 10, 1976 timetable from DTW:

BDA: 1x week
CLT: 1x day
FLL: 1x day
GSO: 1x day
MIA: 2x day, including the 10 AM L:1011
MCO: 2x day
PIT: 3x day
TPA: 3x day
PBI: 1x day

Eastern had two problems at DTW. The main one was that they didn't have nonstop authority from DTW to their main hub in ATL until 1978. Another problem was that fewer people came from North and South Carolina to work in the auto factories, than came from Alabama, Mississippi, and Tennessee, and the Detroit auto makers had fewer parts factories in the Carolinas than they did in southern states west of the Appalachians.

Delta did have DTW-ATL nonstop authority, and DL had a larger presence than EA in the parts of the south where the auto parts factories were located. This is why DL was so much bigger than EA at DTW.

WA707atMSP wrote:

Seat1F wrote:

I agree that AA and DL were likely the largest carriers at DTW in that era in terms of passengers carried. AA alone had near hourly 727 service to LGA and then their substantial lift to California often using DC-10's. Eastern did indeed have a small operation during the summer months but its worth mentioning they did add additional Florida sections for their winter season. I remember the EA L-1011 that would depart DTW every morning around 10:00am for MIA.

It's fun remembering the old days. Thanks for assembling the data.

Eastern added a few flights in the winter, but they were still pretty small. Here's EA's Jan 10, 1976 timetable from DTW:

BDA: 1x week
CLT: 1x day
FLL: 1x day
GSO: 1x day
MIA: 2x day, including the 10 AM L:1011
MCO: 2x day
PIT: 3x day
TPA: 3x day
PBI: 1x day

Eastern had two problems at DTW. The main one was that they didn't have nonstop authority from DTW to their main hub in ATL until 1978. Another problem was that fewer people came from North and South Carolina to work in the auto factories, than came from Alabama, Mississippi, and Tennessee, and the Detroit auto makers had fewer parts factories in the Carolinas than they did in southern states west of the Appalachians.

Delta did have DTW-ATL nonstop authority, and DL had a larger presence than EA in the parts of the south where the auto parts factories were located. This is why DL was so much bigger than EA at DTW.

Yes that looks like the type of winter schedule I remember. I also remember the EA PIT service from DTW. Funny how regulation worked out back then. EA was one of the main carriers between DTW and PIT (along with Allegheny I guess?). Thanks for this!

Seat1F wrote:

WA707atMSP wrote:

Eastern and United were much smaller at DTW than people remember. Here are the daily flights from the July, 1977 OAG:

Air Wisconsin: 11
Allegheny: 14
American: 39 passenger, plus 4 freighter
British Airways: 1
Braniff: 3
Delta: 39
Eastern: 7, plus a 1x week DTW-BDA flight
Heussler: 2
Lake Central: 2
North Central: 52
Northwest: 37
Ozark: 2
Pan Am: 1
Skystream: 5
Southern: 4
TWA: 6
United: 23 passenger, plus 2 freighter

Although North Central had the most flights, their flights operated with smaller aircraft than the major airlines' flights did, so they were not Detroit's #1 airline in terms of passengers flown. American and Delta were DTW's top two airlines by passengers; American was probably DTW's leader by RPMs because so many of their passengers were flying to California.

It's fun remembering the old days. Thanks for assembling the data.

Fond memories of days spent spotting all those a/c from the observation decks above concourses C and E. The observation deck above E was closed when they constructed a second level on that concourse. I can't recall when that happened. I remember seeing Mohawk at terminal E, so that goes back to before they were acquired by Allegheny in 1972.

Single level concourse C on the left:

iFlyDTW wrote:

I wonder what is deterring airlines from wanting to add new routes from DTW lately. I want to see the creativity that landed JetBlue and Alaska within the same year in 2014. I am certainly glad that Delta is bringing back pre-COVID international flights but Delta can't cover everything, and the market is too big in some markets for only a carrier or two. San Francisco was easily one of the most neglected markets until Spirit began flying to OAK, once we recover from COVID it will be 3 carriers to 3 bay area airports. It's time for this to occur with the LA basin perhaps with American or Alaska entering LAX and Frontier entering Ontario.

You may need to look at "creativity" differently. Today, it's leisure travel that's driving passenger numbers, not business travel. That's a whole different dynamic on route structure. For example, for this winter season, DL, F9 and NK will be serving DTW-CUN (it used to be just DL and NK). During the summer, I think there were times when there were 10 - 11 flights a day DTW-MCO between DL, F9, WN and NK (I believe WN was new at daily).

Are these the greatest in creativity? Probably not. However, until business travel returns, I don't think you will see anything other that fringe routes to meet local demand. In the end, DTW is a business destination (as compared to a FLL, MCO, PHX, etc.). Routes will come back when business travel comes back.

EBiafore99 wrote:

iFlyDTW wrote:

I wonder what is deterring airlines from wanting to add new routes from DTW lately. I want to see the creativity that landed JetBlue and Alaska within the same year in 2014. I am certainly glad that Delta is bringing back pre-COVID international flights but Delta can't cover everything, and the market is too big in some markets for only a carrier or two. San Francisco was easily one of the most neglected markets until Spirit began flying to OAK, once we recover from COVID it will be 3 carriers to 3 bay area airports. It's time for this to occur with the LA basin perhaps with American or Alaska entering LAX and Frontier entering Ontario.

You may need to look at "creativity" differently. Today, it's leisure travel that's driving passenger numbers, not business travel. That's a whole different dynamic on route structure. For example, for this winter season, DL, F9 and NK will be serving DTW-CUN (it used to be just DL and NK). During the summer, I think there were times when there were 10 - 11 flights a day DTW-MCO between DL, F9, WN and NK (I believe WN was new at daily).

Are these the greatest in creativity? Probably not. However, until business travel returns, I don't think you will see anything other that fringe routes to meet local demand. In the end, DTW is a business destination (as compared to a FLL, MCO, PHX, etc.). Routes will come back when business travel comes back.

I know Detroit is heavily business, but people here want to play too. It's frustrating being a user of this airport and having to see other airports in the rust belt hold regular route announcements when we are lucky to see one per quarter

tjwgrr wrote:

Fond memories of days spent spotting all those a/c from the observation decks above concourses C and E. The observation deck above E was closed when they constructed a second level on that concourse. I can't recall when that happened. I remember seeing Mohawk at terminal E, so that goes back to before they were acquired by Allegheny in 1972.

I remember being on the C observation deck several times.
Apart from the fumes I don't remember anything else
It's a shame no replacements happened but they aren't money makers so no surprise.

iFlyDTW wrote:

I know Detroit is heavily business, but people here want to play too. It's frustrating being a user of this airport and having to see other airports in the rust belt hold regular route announcements when we are lucky to see one per quarter

But they aren't. DL's the 800 lb. gorilla and has added very little leisure-orientated travel to their network during the pandemic - DL's very clear that that type of flying isn't profitable for them. Don't be fooled by DL's press releases at BOS & NYC -- they're making noise as they restore service; they're restoring service at DTW, ATL & MSP as well, but without the noise.

WN has added service to Florida, F9 continues to play musical chairs and even NK has added frequency to tourist markets, even as its business orientated flights (MCI, LGA, etc.) are cut. NK has operated two frequencies to LAX for quite awhile, something that use to he done during high season only. In the summer, the second departure left DTW at 5AM, now it'll leave at 11PM. How's that for creativity? Nor would I complain about three airlines serving CUN. It wasn't that long ago that DL cut the flight from daily to Saturday-only in favor of an eighth frequency (or something like that) at ATL. At least NK keeps them honest...

WidebodyPTV wrote:

iFlyDTW wrote:

I know Detroit is heavily business, but people here want to play too. It's frustrating being a user of this airport and having to see other airports in the rust belt hold regular route announcements when we are lucky to see one per quarter

But they aren't. DL's the 800 lb. gorilla and has added very little leisure-orientated travel to their network during the pandemic - DL's very clear that that type of flying isn't profitable for them. Don't be fooled by DL's press releases at BOS & NYC -- they're making noise as they restore service; they're restoring service at DTW, ATL & MSP as well, but without the noise.

WN has added service to Florida, F9 continues to play musical chairs and even NK has added frequency to tourist markets, even as its business orientated flights (MCI, LGA, etc.) are cut. NK has operated two frequencies to LAX for quite awhile, something that use to he done during high season only. In the summer, the second departure left DTW at 5AM, now it'll leave at 11PM. How's that for creativity? Nor would I complain about three airlines serving CUN. It wasn't that long ago that DL cut the flight from daily to Saturday-only in favor of an eighth frequency (or something like that) at ATL. At least NK keeps them honest...

WN dropped RSW, pushed TPA to restart once weekly in March, and made MCO weekends only again. If WN was achieving a 90%+ LF to MCO in July there should be no reason as to why a daily flight won't work.

Here were the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factor for WN DAL-DTW nonstop service in December 2020:
595 passengers, 700 seats, 85.00% load factor

I am surprised that WN hasn't yet re-added DAL-DTW nonstop flights during the holidays in December 2020, especially with the amount of demand that was there for less-than-daily nonstop service to DTW from DAL on WN in December 2020. WN also has more than enough room at DAL to accommodate Saturday nonstop flights to DTW from DAL with WN operating fewer daily departures out of DAL on Saturdays than on Sundays or weekdays.

Is WN likely to add back in some nonstop flights to DAL from DTW in December 2021 (even on a less-than-daily basis), given that demand for DTW-DAL nonstop service is likely to be stronger in December 2021 than in December 2020?

DTW to TPA non stop is for sale in Nov and Dec on Southwest.

Dtwramp wrote:

DTW to TPA non stop is for sale in Nov and Dec on Southwest.

I stand corrected. At least for MCO, the flight hit 90% LF's in July after pricing themselves anove DL on most occasions on a 737-800. If WN wants to gain way in the DTW market, they need to make large markets happen and in this case MCO is DTW's single largest market.

With NK regularly selling Florida for $29 each way for travel through the end of the year (excluding Holiday periods, of course), I'm not surprised that WN opted not to compete. Even NK has dropped flights.

The next Spirit casualty from DTW is AUS. At this point I don't even know as to why they even maintain a crew base or maintenance hangar. I do think Spirit will eventually close their base and will not renew their lease on the hangar.

Here is what we are seeing. Boston (cut), Seattle (cut), Austin (cut), Montego Bay (cut), West Palm Beach (cut), Kansas City (cut), Vegas (-1), Dallas Ft Worth (-1), Orlando (-1), Tampa (-1), Fort Myers (-2), Fort Lauderdale (-1), Atlanta (-1).

iFlyDTW wrote:

The next Spirit casualty from DTW is AUS. At this point I don't even know as to why they even maintain a crew base or maintenance hangar. I do think Spirit will eventually close their base and will not renew their lease on the hangar.

Here is what we are seeing. Boston (cut), Seattle (cut), Austin (cut), Montego Bay (cut), West Palm Beach (cut), Kansas City (cut), Vegas (-1), Dallas Ft Worth (-1), Orlando (-1), Tampa (-1), Fort Myers (-2), Fort Lauderdale (-1), Atlanta (-1).

As they should! Decaying market. Simple.

WidebodyPTV wrote:

With NK regularly selling Florida for $29 each way for travel through the end of the year (excluding Holiday periods, of course), I'm not surprised that WN opted not to compete. Even NK has dropped flights.

DTW-MCO is virtually an infinite market, so WN flying a daily flight isn't going to hinder another airlines performance. They priced themselves above Delta for the most part and still achieved over a 90% LF, Delta was pricing RT fares at about $175-$199 during that time, WN was regularly $230-250.

iFlyDTW wrote:

At this point I don't even know as to why they even maintain a crew base or maintenance hangar. I do think Spirit will eventually close their base and will not renew their lease on the hangar.

Michigan gave them $1million and Romulus gave them a 10 year tax abatement.
I think they are the owner outright, not leased, given the incentives that were received.
Normally those come with penalties if conditions aren't met.
Such as leaving early.
Maybe after 2025?
https://www.freep.com/story/money/2015/06/26/spirit-airlines-new-detroit-metroro-hangar/29331767/
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/2017/01/23/spirit-hangar-metro-airport-give-region-lift/96936420/

Of those NK schedule changes, what are seasonal versus through end-of-schedule?
I am not surprised that many of these markets are "weak" Jan-early March if that is the case.

flymco753 wrote:

WidebodyPTV wrote:

With NK regularly selling Florida for $29 each way for travel through the end of the year (excluding Holiday periods, of course), I'm not surprised that WN opted not to compete. Even NK has dropped flights.

DTW-MCO is virtually an infinite market, so WN flying a daily flight isn't going to hinder another airlines performance. They priced themselves above Delta for the most part and still achieved over a 90% LF, Delta was pricing RT fares at about $175-$199 during that time, WN was regularly $230-250.

It's silly to assert that NK's pricing itself above DL; just glancing at the fares for a moment will immediately disapprove such. For example, a last-minute, long weekend trip DTW/MCO is RT$112 on both NK and F9, sub-$150 on AA & UA (one-stop)... and $288 on DL. And that's not an outlier.

Outside of Holiday periods, airfares remain near historical lows. With corporate welfare drying up, it's no shocker that airlines are dumping excess capacity...

WidebodyPTV wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

WidebodyPTV wrote:

With NK regularly selling Florida for $29 each way for travel through the end of the year (excluding Holiday periods, of course), I'm not surprised that WN opted not to compete. Even NK has dropped flights.

DTW-MCO is virtually an infinite market, so WN flying a daily flight isn't going to hinder another airlines performance. They priced themselves above Delta for the most part and still achieved over a 90% LF, Delta was pricing RT fares at about $175-$199 during that time, WN was regularly $230-250.

It's silly to assert that NK's pricing itself above DL; just glancing at the fares for a moment will immediately disapprove such. For example, a last-minute, long weekend trip DTW/MCO is RT$112 on both NK and F9, sub-$150 on AA & UA (one-stop)... and $288 on DL. And that's not an outlier.

Outside of Holiday periods, airfares remain near historical lows. With corporate welfare drying up, it's no shocker that airlines are dumping excess capacity...

Sorry if I mistakenly forgot to mention WN was pricing themselves above DL with daily flights in July.

iFlyDTW wrote:

The next Spirit casualty from DTW is AUS. At this point I don't even know as to why they even maintain a crew base or maintenance hangar. I do think Spirit will eventually close their base and will not renew their lease on the hangar.

Here is what we are seeing. Boston (cut), Seattle (cut), Austin (cut), Montego Bay (cut), West Palm Beach (cut), Kansas City (cut), Vegas (-1), Dallas Ft Worth (-1), Orlando (-1), Tampa (-1), Fort Myers (-2), Fort Lauderdale (-1), Atlanta (-1).

A couple of points:
1. You need to be specific as to what time frame you are looking at these "cuts". Is it just the current schedule, or winter schedule? We're entering into a slow season of travel, so the time frame of the cuts makes a difference
2. A lot of the routes you mention have been summer seasonal prior to COIVD (BOS, SEA, AUS, MCI), so their "cuts" are not surprising at the end of summer

EBiafore99 wrote:

iFlyDTW wrote:

The next Spirit casualty from DTW is AUS. At this point I don't even know as to why they even maintain a crew base or maintenance hangar. I do think Spirit will eventually close their base and will not renew their lease on the hangar.

Here is what we are seeing. Boston (cut), Seattle (cut), Austin (cut), Montego Bay (cut), West Palm Beach (cut), Kansas City (cut), Vegas (-1), Dallas Ft Worth (-1), Orlando (-1), Tampa (-1), Fort Myers (-2), Fort Lauderdale (-1), Atlanta (-1).

A couple of points:
1. You need to be specific as to what time frame you are looking at these "cuts". Is it just the current schedule, or winter schedule? We're entering into a slow season of travel, so the time frame of the cuts makes a difference
2. A lot of the routes you mention have been summer seasonal prior to COIVD (BOS, SEA, AUS, MCI), so their "cuts" are not surprising at the end of summer

BOS, SEA, AUS, MCI are not currently loaded in forward schedule (which runs through May 24th). Summer seasonal DTW-SEA flight was axed back in March. DTW-AUS/BOS/MCI restarts had kept getting pushed back (the last time they were loaded, they had a September restart) until they were finally cancelled for season back in July.

tjwgrr wrote:

Single level concourse C on the left:

I need to correct myself- that was concourse E

umichman wrote:

EBiafore99 wrote:

iFlyDTW wrote:

The next Spirit casualty from DTW is AUS. At this point I don't even know as to why they even maintain a crew base or maintenance hangar. I do think Spirit will eventually close their base and will not renew their lease on the hangar.

Here is what we are seeing. Boston (cut), Seattle (cut), Austin (cut), Montego Bay (cut), West Palm Beach (cut), Kansas City (cut), Vegas (-1), Dallas Ft Worth (-1), Orlando (-1), Tampa (-1), Fort Myers (-2), Fort Lauderdale (-1), Atlanta (-1).

A couple of points:
1. You need to be specific as to what time frame you are looking at these "cuts". Is it just the current schedule, or winter schedule? We're entering into a slow season of travel, so the time frame of the cuts makes a difference
2. A lot of the routes you mention have been summer seasonal prior to COIVD (BOS, SEA, AUS, MCI), so their "cuts" are not surprising at the end of summer

BOS, SEA, AUS, MCI are not currently loaded in forward schedule (which runs through May 24th). Summer seasonal DTW-SEA flight was axed back in March. DTW-AUS/BOS/MCI restarts had kept getting pushed back (the last time they were loaded, they had a September restart) until they were finally cancelled for season back in July.

The timeframes provide more perspective. But, with that, I think it's more appropriate to look at total operations per day vs. the cities served. NK responds to the leisure market, which has been quit erratic. Earlier in this thread there was a discussion of NK and they were running 4 - 5 flights a day to MCO in the summer. So, while they may have cut service to some cities, the overall operations per day may have not changed.

Also, if COVID has taught us anything about airline schedules, it's that anything more than month in the future is highly variable. The schedule you see not may not even be close to the schedule a month from now.

My point is, I think the doom and gloom is premature. There's so much going on the airline industry right now that I don't think you can necessarily look at an airline schedule and identify a trend.

And to add on to that....while I don't follow NK's scheduling practices to closely, they maybe finally did what others like DL finally did earlier this year is that created a "new" baseline / default schedule in the post-COVID environment instead of perpetually rolling forward the pre-COVID schedule and constantly trimming-down.
The prime example of this was a route on DL like DTW-SNA had been in the default/placeholder schedule put was constantly getting removed whenever DL would roll-forward their schedule update was a few months ago finally pulled through end-of schedule. Now, when they do decide to resume the flight, it will show up as a new addition.

Point being, in the post-COVID environment, nothing is set in stone either way. I would not fully trust schedules for next summer at all yet. Right now is the prime booking time for leisure holiday travel and spring break related travel.

I will look later, but I'm actually curious to look at what NK is planning to fly out of DTW over a couple of periods:

December Holiday
Low Winter (Jan-mid Feb)
Spring Break (Mid-Feb - Apr)

NK has been holding steady now post-COVID in the 25-30 departures/day range, but a different mix of desinations that pre-COVID. I wouldn't say the sky-is-falling until they consistently drop below 20 departures/day. Not sure at all why they would, they actually have a pretty good thing going at DTW, with somewhat a following, brand recognition, and not a lot of ULCC competition. Its basically shooting fish in a barrel for them to fly to MCO, RSW, TPA, FLL, CUN, LAS, LAX where they can stimulate/generate/manufacture/capture demand at a price point below DL. LGA has been around forever. They have ATL too which again is a big market (at a price below DL).
Those core 9 destinations are not going anywhere and that easily is 20-30 flights/day right there depending on the season.

flymco753 wrote:

iFlyDTW wrote:

The next Spirit casualty from DTW is AUS. At this point I don't even know as to why they even maintain a crew base or maintenance hangar. I do think Spirit will eventually close their base and will not renew their lease on the hangar.

Here is what we are seeing. Boston (cut), Seattle (cut), Austin (cut), Montego Bay (cut), West Palm Beach (cut), Kansas City (cut), Vegas (-1), Dallas Ft Worth (-1), Orlando (-1), Tampa (-1), Fort Myers (-2), Fort Lauderdale (-1), Atlanta (-1).

As they should! Decaying market. Simple.

DTW still has more domestic O&D than:

PHL
SFO
SAN
SLC
BWI
BNA
RSW
CLT
MDW
PDX
AUS
LGA

MIflyer12 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

iFlyDTW wrote:

The next Spirit casualty from DTW is AUS. At this point I don't even know as to why they even maintain a crew base or maintenance hangar. I do think Spirit will eventually close their base and will not renew their lease on the hangar.

Here is what we are seeing. Boston (cut), Seattle (cut), Austin (cut), Montego Bay (cut), West Palm Beach (cut), Kansas City (cut), Vegas (-1), Dallas Ft Worth (-1), Orlando (-1), Tampa (-1), Fort Myers (-2), Fort Lauderdale (-1), Atlanta (-1).

As they should! Decaying market. Simple.

DTW still has more domestic O&D than:

PHL
SFO
SAN
SLC
BWI
BNA
RSW
CLT
MDW
PDX
AUS
LGA

If that was the case there would be a little bit more ULCC exposure than what is already offered. DTW ranks very low regarding low cost service exposure.

flymco753 wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

As they should! Decaying market. Simple.

DTW still has more domestic O&D than:

PHL
SFO
SAN
SLC
BWI
BNA
RSW
CLT
MDW
PDX
AUS
LGA

If that was the case there would be a little bit more ULCC exposure than what is already offered. DTW ranks very low regarding low cost service exposure.

What is "very low"? Also, you have to factor two things. First, DL has a hub at DTW. Second, DTW is primarily a business destination with the ULCCs serving the O&D leisure crowd. It's not like a FLL, which is a large leisure destination and therefore, will have more ULCC exposure. ULCC exposure doesn't necessarily indicate the health of a market, rather more the passenger mix.

EBiafore99 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

DTW still has more domestic O&D than:

PHL
SFO
SAN
SLC
BWI
BNA
RSW
CLT
MDW
PDX
AUS
LGA

If that was the case there would be a little bit more ULCC exposure than what is already offered. DTW ranks very low regarding low cost service exposure.

What is "very low"? Also, you have to factor two things. First, DL has a hub at DTW. Second, DTW is primarily a business destination with the ULCCs serving the O&D leisure crowd. It's not like a FLL, which is a large leisure destination and therefore, will have more ULCC exposure. ULCC exposure doesn't necessarily indicate the health of a market, rather more the passenger mix.

My home airport is an inbound leisure heavy market. DTW is heavier outgoing and DL discovered that last summer. From what I understand ANC & JAC did good and RAP anticipates DTW service to return. A good next step would be EYW and DL can probably make it work using an A220-100.

flymco753 wrote:

Sorry if I mistakenly forgot to mention WN was pricing themselves above DL with daily flights in July.

At the lower end, I would hope so -- WN includes two checked bags per person, a $70 value (vs. DL) each way. While on a.net, having the ability to watch Downton Abbey on a PTV is worth a premium to fly DL, in the normal world, being able to check golf clubs, or three changes of outfits every day for the ladies in the group, etc. triumphs. Plus, it's often easier for families to sit together on WN. Only a limited number of seats are available for prebooking on DL, and you have to pay for them (either directly or by upgrading to Main Cabin... and if you want a larger selection of seats to pick from, you have to pay even more). Unless you book your flights super early, it's probable most of the aisles/windows have been reserved by families that booked them, leaving the middle seat open, as they read on Mommy Blog that virtually guaranteed an empty seat.

But I'd handily bet that DL easily beat WN's average fare. Among the many reasons, DL has a large FF base that will pay the extra $70 each way to book Main Cabin so they can get upgraded to Economy Comfort or First Class.

flymco753 wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

As they should! Decaying market. Simple.

DTW still has more domestic O&D than:

PHL
SFO
SAN
SLC
BWI
BNA
RSW
CLT
MDW
PDX
AUS
LGA

If that was the case there would be a little bit more ULCC exposure than what is already offered. DTW ranks very low regarding low cost service exposure.

Not sure how you figure that. Vs. 2019, the drop in O/D traffic compared to MSP, CVG, CLE, etc. isn't materially different and betters that of ORD, NYC, etc. Network patterns are inevitably going to shift, as the corporate welfare ends and demand remains weak (beyond the Holidays). Don't be fooled by a.net.

Example of Delta change: DL cuts a flight from ATL-SNA, reduces weekly on a flight from MSP-SNA and adds an extra SLC-SNA section.
Why it's happening: Local traffic between SLC/SNA has plunged, so one can reasonably conclude DL's trying to maintain a level of capacity and schedule frequency via SLC as it's its best option (longer stage lengths can equal larger losses).
But according to a.net: Congratulations SLC! Mormons love to um, have children, SLC's economy is thriving, and people love to ski - especially rich folks in SNA area.

Just a listing of random facts that don't support the narrative. Don't be fooled!

flymco753 wrote:

EBiafore99 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

If that was the case there would be a little bit more ULCC exposure than what is already offered. DTW ranks very low regarding low cost service exposure.

What is "very low"? Also, you have to factor two things. First, DL has a hub at DTW. Second, DTW is primarily a business destination with the ULCCs serving the O&D leisure crowd. It's not like a FLL, which is a large leisure destination and therefore, will have more ULCC exposure. ULCC exposure doesn't necessarily indicate the health of a market, rather more the passenger mix.

My home airport is an inbound leisure heavy market. DTW is heavier outgoing and DL discovered that last summer. From what I understand ANC & JAC did good and RAP anticipates DTW service to return. A good next step would be EYW and DL can probably make it work using an A220-100.

I'd be shocked if DL added EYW-DTW, because the upper midwest has relatively weak ties to Key West.

The Detroit area's strongest ties have traditionally been to the TPA to APF stretch of the Gulf coast, which DL and other airlines serve well via TPA and RSW.

WA707atMSP wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

EBiafore99 wrote:

What is "very low"? Also, you have to factor two things. First, DL has a hub at DTW. Second, DTW is primarily a business destination with the ULCCs serving the O&D leisure crowd. It's not like a FLL, which is a large leisure destination and therefore, will have more ULCC exposure. ULCC exposure doesn't necessarily indicate the health of a market, rather more the passenger mix.

My home airport is an inbound leisure heavy market. DTW is heavier outgoing and DL discovered that last summer. From what I understand ANC & JAC did good and RAP anticipates DTW service to return. A good next step would be EYW and DL can probably make it work using an A220-100.

I'd be shocked if DL added EYW-DTW, because the upper midwest has relatively weak ties to Key West.

The Detroit area's strongest ties have traditionally been to the TPA to APF stretch of the Gulf coast, which DL and other airlines serve well via TPA and RSW.

The I4 corridor between TPA and MCO is strong too. A lot of the people who fly to MCO, TPA, or RSW are visiting friends or family generally staying at their homes that's why not a lot of SE Michiganders stay onsite at theme parks or beaches.

flymco753 wrote:

WA707atMSP wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

My home airport is an inbound leisure heavy market. DTW is heavier outgoing and DL discovered that last summer. From what I understand ANC & JAC did good and RAP anticipates DTW service to return. A good next step would be EYW and DL can probably make it work using an A220-100.

I'd be shocked if DL added EYW-DTW, because the upper midwest has relatively weak ties to Key West.

The Detroit area's strongest ties have traditionally been to the TPA to APF stretch of the Gulf coast, which DL and other airlines serve well via TPA and RSW.

The I4 corridor between TPA and MCO is strong too. A lot of the people who fly to MCO, TPA, or RSW are visiting friends or family generally staying at their homes that's why not a lot of SE Michiganders stay onsite at theme parks or beaches.

Yep....tons of snowbirds, retirees, vacation homeowners, seasonal residents, former residence of Michigan......a lot of ties in the TPA, MCO, RSW, APF area.
My buddy runs a business (full disclosure, I am an investor) that is basically is a property management, concierge, car/vehicle transport, courier service between SE Michigan and Central Florida / Gulf Coast of Florida and has never been busier. Its booming, was nuts last year during the pandemic, and this year is shaping up to be even more demand than last year.

Did anyone catch the AF A318 transiting through DTW earlier today?

AF A318 F-GUGB was ferried CDG-KEF-YYR-DTW-BYH today.
Assume for retirement / part-out, as for the most part what goes to BYH, only very few leave intact.

In the first quarter of 2021, the PDEW of DTW-EYW was 63. It would be expected that for first quarter 2022, that number should be higher as Covid fears wane.

Given the large size of the DTW DL hub, and the additional cachement to draw from, there should be enough additional pax to pair with some of that 63 PDEW for DL to make a DTW-EYW flight profitable if they wanted to. It is 1400 miles, so perhaps the stage length is too long? Or more likely, it would probably cannibalize one of DLs more desirable ATL-EYW frequencies.

Doubtful that DL flies DTW-EYW. Like said, directly overflies a much shorter stage length ATL-EYW flight that can be flown with a A319 without a capacity/performance hit.
Those DTW based passengers that are loyal to DL are just going to fly DTW-ATL-EYW and most major connecting points already have XXX-ATL service anyways.

Few people realize that APF had scheduled service until about 15 years ago. AA Eagle flew there from MIA, US* flew APF-CLT, and DL* flew APF-ATL. APF's runway is actually longer than the runway at FMY, Fort Myers' original airport.

It's almost unthinkable that scheduled service will return to APF because RSW is just 25 miles away. However, if environmental activists had been able to prevent RSW from being built, APF might have been able to support DTW-APF flights, because so many wealthy Detroit area retirees live in the APF area.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

WA707atMSP wrote:

I'd be shocked if DL added EYW-DTW, because the upper midwest has relatively weak ties to Key West.

The Detroit area's strongest ties have traditionally been to the TPA to APF stretch of the Gulf coast, which DL and other airlines serve well via TPA and RSW.

The I4 corridor between TPA and MCO is strong too. A lot of the people who fly to MCO, TPA, or RSW are visiting friends or family generally staying at their homes that's why not a lot of SE Michiganders stay onsite at theme parks or beaches.

Yep....tons of snowbirds, retirees, vacation homeowners, seasonal residents, former residence of Michigan......a lot of ties in the TPA, MCO, RSW, APF area.
My buddy runs a business (full disclosure, I am an investor) that is basically is a property management, concierge, car/vehicle transport, courier service between SE Michigan and Central Florida / Gulf Coast of Florida and has never been busier. Its booming, was nuts last year during the pandemic, and this year is shaping up to be even more demand than last year.

A lot of Detroit area Corvette owners are shipping their Vettes down when they move. We're bursting at the seams with Michigan transplants. If SY was interested in entering DTW I'd say they could do off daily MCO, TPA, & RSW flights and bridge them to MSP but they don't seem interested in flying to DTW like iflydtw said.

DTW-MUC coming back on DL beginning 5-2-22. Wikipedia currently shows it as year-round right now, but I imagine it will stay seasonal like it was pre-COVID

flymco753 wrote:

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

The I4 corridor between TPA and MCO is strong too. A lot of the people who fly to MCO, TPA, or RSW are visiting friends or family generally staying at their homes that's why not a lot of SE Michiganders stay onsite at theme parks or beaches.

Yep....tons of snowbirds, retirees, vacation homeowners, seasonal residents, former residence of Michigan......a lot of ties in the TPA, MCO, RSW, APF area.
My buddy runs a business (full disclosure, I am an investor) that is basically is a property management, concierge, car/vehicle transport, courier service between SE Michigan and Central Florida / Gulf Coast of Florida and has never been busier. Its booming, was nuts last year during the pandemic, and this year is shaping up to be even more demand than last year.

A lot of Detroit area Corvette owners are shipping their Vettes down when they move. We're bursting at the seams with Michigan transplants. If SY was interested in entering DTW I'd say they could do off daily MCO, TPA, & RSW flights and bridge them to MSP but they don't seem interested in flying to DTW like iflydtw said.

DTW-MCO is not an underserved market On peak days there are eight flights (4xNK, 2xF9, 1xWN, 1xDL - the 6AM departure and 9PM return) dedicated entirely to local traffic. That's almost 4,000 seats -- not including the additional six flights DL operates into MCO. Additionally, if you time it right, the Orlando area is an easy 17+ hour drive from Metro Detroit. I have friends and family that regularly make the drive, since they think it's easier than traveling by air + avoid paying hefty charges for a family sized rental car.

A month ago the FAA posted a video about DTW ops https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NVixzJIW-E
Not sure what the point of that video was.
The only thing I found interesting was they note 129 gates in service.

By my count AS BUILT:
Concourse A 64 gates, 1 removed for the bag inspection building making 63.
Concourse B 17 gates.
Concourse C (the current version) 39 gates of which 3 didn't have bridges. The 3 without bridges converted to 2 with bridges making 38. 15 gates out of service making 23 with 3 having bridges removed.
Councoure D 26 gates. 1 widebody gate can be used for 2 narrow bodies. 3 gates added recently making 29.

As shown on the DTW website:
Concourse A 63 shown as active.
Concourse B 17 shown as active.
Concourse C 23 shown as active.
Concourse D 29 shown as active. 1 widebody gate can used for 2 narrow bodies.

That equals 131.
I know some are used for equipment parking but should still be usable by aircraft if needed.

MIflyer12 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

iFlyDTW wrote:

The next Spirit casualty from DTW is AUS. At this point I don't even know as to why they even maintain a crew base or maintenance hangar. I do think Spirit will eventually close their base and will not renew their lease on the hangar.

Here is what we are seeing. Boston (cut), Seattle (cut), Austin (cut), Montego Bay (cut), West Palm Beach (cut), Kansas City (cut), Vegas (-1), Dallas Ft Worth (-1), Orlando (-1), Tampa (-1), Fort Myers (-2), Fort Lauderdale (-1), Atlanta (-1).

As they should! Decaying market. Simple.

DTW still has more domestic O&D than:

PHL
SFO
SAN
SLC
BWI
BNA
RSW
CLT
MDW
PDX
AUS
LGA

Im glad to learn this info. Some of these are really surprising: SFO, BNA, MDW especially! Thank you.

challeygat300 wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

As they should! Decaying market. Simple.

DTW still has more domestic O&D than:

PHL
SFO
SAN
SLC
BWI
BNA
RSW
CLT
MDW
PDX
AUS
LGA

Im glad to learn this info. Some of these are really surprising: SFO, BNA, MDW especially! Thank you.

You think it's surprising that DTW has more local traffic than BNA (less than half the population of Metro Detroit) and MDW (a secondary airport)?

Looks like the years of rumors for a new middle eastern/ European carrier at Detroit have been added. Turkish is apparently starting flights to Detroit now according to their investor relations.

https://investor.turkishairlines.com/en ... nouncement

We'll see, but would make sense that DTW would be a contender for the next round of US destinations.

Of the previous "public announcement" they say they would start DFW & DEN.
It looks like DFW is starting this month, but nothing yet on DEN in terms of start date/schedule/frequency.

DTW & SEA where in this announcement.

My guess is if they end up starting service, probably mid-2022, 3x weekly on a 789.

That being said, check back in when they actually announcement a schedule and a start date.
Some of these airlines put these things out there then never really actually start service.
We shall see though.

sumeetc2 wrote:

Looks like the years of rumors for a new middle eastern/ European carrier at Detroit have been added. Turkish is apparently starting flights to Detroit now according to their investor relations.

https://investor.turkishairlines.com/en ... nouncement

DTW is the glaring hole in TKs network IMO.

I'm surprised nobody posted this but last week Ed Bastian was the guest speaker at the Detroit Economic Club. He claimed that this past summer, DTW was at about 80% of its pre-COVID schedule and he expects it to be at 90% to 95% next summer.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/busin ... 191401001/

For the record since too late to edit my original post.
Corrected the info about Concourse B.


By my count AS BUILT:
Concourse A 64 gates, 1 removed for the bag inspection building making 63.
C̶o̶n̶c̶o̶u̶r̶s̶e̶ ̶B̶ ̶1̶7̶ ̶g̶a̶t̶e̶s̶.̶
Concourse B 8 gates. 9 gates added shortly after making 17.
Concourse C (the current version) 39 gates of which 3 didn't have bridges. The 3 without bridges converted to 2 with bridges making 38. 15 gates out of service making 23 with 3 having bridges removed.
Councoure D 26 gates. 1 widebody gate can be used for 2 narrow bodies. 3 gates added recently making 29.

As shown on the DTW website:
Concourse A 63 shown as active.
Concourse B 17 shown as active.
Concourse C 23 shown as active.
Concourse D 29 shown as active. 1 widebody gate can used for 2 narrow bodies.

As of Sunday, DL is operating a 339 on SEA-DTW-DTW, flying eastbound as a redeye and returning westbound in the morning. This is the first regularly scheduled 339 flight to/from DTW...