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lightsaber
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DTW Detroit Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:43 pm

Welcome to the Detroit aviation discussion thread for 2021. Please feel free to discuss new (or potential) routes, cancelled routes, equipment (e.g. AN-124, A220, MAX) airport improvements and airport services. Heck, discuss about changes that will increase demand too! Or maintenance directly involving Detroit.

This thread has had trouble in the past staying on topic. So if we find excessive airline cheerleading or bashing, politics, racism, A vs. B, disrespecting other users (in particular ad hominem attacks), or other behavior violating forum rules, we moderators have agreed to moderate this thread as a non-aviation thread. This is your only warning prior to a ban as in prior years this has been the toughest aviation thread to moderate.

Please enjoy the discussion. Please discuss aviation. Please take the high ground when discussing DTW aviation.

Sincerely,
Lightsaber
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klm617
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:10 pm

Want to say a big thank you to the mods for allowing us to discuss Detroit as a topic again it is very much appreciated.
 
kavok
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:28 pm

One DTW question I have is what ever happened with the new DL SkyClub being constructed at former gate A41?

In March 2020, (pre pandemic) it was still under construction with a Summer 2020 slated completion date. Was construction on that ever completed, and the club just never opened? Or in an effort to save money, did DL stop construction last spring before completion? Obviously I didn’t expect it to open given the current circumstances, but I am curious if construction was ever completed or not. Thanks in advance!
 
DaveMetroD
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:30 pm

I have been following the NOTAMS over the past year which document various construction projects and other things of course.
Along with other information such as local media, google aerial photos and posts here in this forum, I am making a list of major DTW changes over the last year or so.

Removal of the old International Terminal.
Addition of 3 gates on the north end of Concourse D(North Terminal).
Removal of the old Smith Terminal..
Completion of the "P" taxiway.
Maintenance work across all of the runways, taxiways and ramps made possible with the decrease in traffic.
Expansion of the 22L(northwest) deice pad.
Addition and/or changes to various Remain Overnight(RON) parking, mostly the result of the old terminal demolitions.
Closure of the north end of Concourse C(actually 2019?).
Various other Covid related Concourse closures.

Feel free to make additions/corrections. I did try to limit it to the bigger things.

Edit to add an addition-the suspension of the Express Tram service.

What is ahead for 2021? Maybe not much given economics and decreased traffic are likely to be factors?
I believe the earth berm to shield runway 21R traffic from seeing end-around-taxi traffic is still to be started or maybe completed?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:54 pm

I don't believe there are any really big projects that are anticipated to get started in 2021 at DTW.
You covered most of the big items.

Most of the big stuff planned for 2021 is either routine maintenance/replacement or on-going work to finish-up punchlist items from the 2020 construction season.

- Finish remaining site work on rebuild of 3L/21R
- Rehab and taxiway Q (the end around from 4L) and the 4R deice pad
- A lot of behind the scenes ultility work to replace power distribution equipment, switching gear, etc.
- Ongoing rehab in the parking garages and airport roadways
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:56 pm

kavok wrote:
One DTW question I have is what ever happened with the new DL SkyClub being constructed at former gate A41?

In March 2020, (pre pandemic) it was still under construction with a Summer 2020 slated completion date. Was construction on that ever completed, and the club just never opened? Or in an effort to save money, did DL stop construction last spring before completion? Obviously I didn’t expect it to open given the current circumstances, but I am curious if construction was ever completed or not. Thanks in advance!

The entrance is there with a construction wall by the escalator below the north end of the tram station. I doubt it was ever really finished for obvious reasons.

The main A38 club has been open throughout, they reopened the B/C Skyclub just before Thanksgiving.
The North & South A clubs are still close and likely will be for the foreseeable future (e.g. summer probably)
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:40 pm

DaveMetroD wrote:
Removal of the old International Terminal.

Removal of the old Smith Terminal..


Exorcisms! Long overdue - but a testament to the quantity of available land near the airport that these structures didn't need to come down to build new two decades ago.

The state/county/airport authority would do well to spend some money to improve road pavement quality within a few miles of the terminals, but that's needed in many places all over SE Michigan.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:10 pm

At least they reconstructed the ramps for the south entrance this year. That thing was full of land mines. The county needs to reconstruct Eureka all the way over to 275 though.
 
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tb727
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:18 pm

I just hope they fix the darn escalators at the North. Ridiculous.
 
KarlB737
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:48 pm

DaveMetroD wrote:
I am making a list of major DTW changes over the last year or so.

Removal of the old International Terminal.
Removal of the old Smith Terminal..


My only question that I have had for some time is this:

Does the airport administration have any plans or even an idea for the vacant space brought forth by specifically the removal of the old Smith Terminal and it's formally connected parking structure.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:48 pm

What is wrong with them? Haven’t been in the North since late 2019.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:51 pm

KarlB737 wrote:
DaveMetroD wrote:
I am making a list of major DTW changes over the last year or so.

Removal of the old International Terminal.
Removal of the old Smith Terminal..


My only question that I have had for some time is this:

Does the airport administration have any plans or even an idea for the vacant space brought forth by specifically the removal of the old Smith Terminal and it's formally connected parking structure.

The area of the former Smith has been filled in and is now and expanded deice pad for use by non DL carriers and also for RON hard stand aircraft parking.

In the long term master plan, an additional “concourse” or gate pod could be extended off of the lower end of the North Terminal and sit roughly in the footprint of where the Smith was located.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:54 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
KarlB737 wrote:
DaveMetroD wrote:
I am making a list of major DTW changes over the last year or so.

Removal of the old International Terminal.
Removal of the old Smith Terminal..


My only question that I have had for some time is this:

Does the airport administration have any plans or even an idea for the vacant space brought forth by specifically the removal of the old Smith Terminal and it's formally connected parking structure.

The area of the former Smith has been filled in and is now and expanded deice pad for use by non DL carriers and also for RON hard stand aircraft parking.

In the long term master plan, an additional “concourse” or gate pod could be extended off of the lower end of the North Terminal and sit roughly in the footprint of where the Smith was located.


The CDF is primarily for non-DL carriers, but if they don't have anyone there, they'll run DL carriers into the CDF.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:14 pm

KarlB737 wrote:
Does the airport administration have any plans or even an idea for the vacant space brought forth by specifically the removal of the old Smith Terminal and it's formally connected parking structure.


What do you perceive the need(s) to be that could be satisfied by that space?
 
DaveMetroD
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:36 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
- Ongoing rehab in the parking garages and airport roadways


Remember the old North Parking Deck fiasco?
IIRC, power was lost to the old North (Davey) Terminal. They found the issue was caused by settling of a garage column.
They had to tow many cars out and install timber cribbing throughout much of the structure.
It wasn't the best deck for navigating before that happened and afterwards it much worse.

I knew how to get to the top deck and park right across from the Smith Terminal.
So that was good for me but not for the airport reputation.
Just part of what made the old DTW so unlovable
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:09 pm

The main problem with DTW is overcrowding within the gate holds, which is an inherent inefficiently of the linear concourse design.

The Midfield Terminal was designed with NW’s then fleet in mind. As DL began upgauging flights, 160 seat MD-90 would frequently park at gates designed for the 100 seat DC-9; the transition to larger B739/A321 meant those aircraft would park at gates designed to accommodate the A319 and A320, etc.

This problem was magnified at the North Terminal, whose gate holds are all similar in size. There have been times in which, during the morning rush, nearly all the aircraft were A321/B739/B739 - and keep in mind NK/F9’s A321 hold a similar number of passengers as DL’s B753.

COVID-19 will likely correct this into the near future. Both terminals are overbuilt, so additional capacity isn’t necessary. It’s just the inherent flaw of the linear design.
 
NWADTWE16
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:20 am

Inherent flaw of the linear design, hrmm....that sounds pretty sweet but both terminals are pretty darn new in the scheme of things and projections for growth were taken into account of the already larger than DL numbers NW was putting thru. The North was designed for 20+ A320/21 concurrently with the 2 wide bodies at the end. I think what was built is exactly the best Wayne county would ever allow to be built, and it is fine for the operations in 2019, even more fine for them now.

Anyone want to talk routes and carrier service. Excited to see a DTW thread again.
 
r6russian
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:48 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
In the long term master plan, an additional “concourse” or gate pod could be extended off of the lower end of the North Terminal and sit roughly in the footprint of where the Smith was located.


What for? North is too big as is. It's got what, like 30 Gates and every time I fly out of the north there's 2-3 each NKs and WNs in the middle and a couple UAs and AAs at the ends, maybe 10 gates occupied total. I can see the Lufthansa a340 needing the ramp space at the end but I wish they'd all use the middle of the terminal so you don't gotta walk 17 miles to get to your plane which no matter what or when, is always at the very end gate
 
umichman
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:57 am

DaveMetroD wrote:
Closure of the north end of Concourse C(actually 2019?).


The wall blocking off the 16 north end gates of Concourse C has been there for like 4 years now.
 
KarlB737
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:13 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
KarlB737 wrote:
Does the airport administration have any plans or even an idea for the vacant space brought forth by specifically the removal of the old Smith Terminal and it's formally connected parking structure.


What do you perceive the need(s) to be that could be satisfied by that space?


My perceptions and/or guesses have been mentioned in the replies that followed. I could follow up by asking if forum members believe that business jets and cargo operations at DTW have ample space at present in your opinion.
 
johns624
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:25 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
The main problem with DTW is overcrowding within the gate holds, which is an inherent inefficiently of the linear concourse design.

The Midfield Terminal was designed with NW’s then fleet in mind. As DL began upgauging flights, 160 seat MD-90 would frequently park at gates designed for the 100 seat DC-9; the transition to larger B739/A321 meant those aircraft would park at gates designed to accommodate the A319 and A320, etc.

This problem was magnified at the North Terminal, whose gate holds are all similar in size. There have been times in which, during the morning rush, nearly all the aircraft were A321/B739/B739 - and keep in mind NK/F9’s A321 hold a similar number of passengers as DL’s B753.

COVID-19 will likely correct this into the near future. Both terminals are overbuilt, so additional capacity isn’t necessary. It’s just the inherent flaw of the linear design.
It doesn't sound like you've ever been in T2 or T3 at LAX. Now that's overcrowding. I really don't see how the linear terminal design has anything to do with it. The only place I've really noticed overcrowding is at the very north and south ends. The small food courts are a large part of the crowding.
 
Antarius
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:26 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
What is wrong with them? Haven’t been in the North since late 2019.


Wrong with what?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:09 am

DaveMetroD wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
- Ongoing rehab in the parking garages and airport roadways


Remember the old North Parking Deck fiasco?
IIRC, power was lost to the old North (Davey) Terminal. They found the issue was caused by settling of a garage column.
They had to tow many cars out and install timber cribbing throughout much of the structure.
It wasn't the best deck for navigating before that happened and afterwards it much worse.

I knew how to get to the top deck and park right across from the Smith Terminal.
So that was good for me but not for the airport reputation.
Just part of what made the old DTW so unlovable

Yes, I remember the old original parking deck when it was shored-up with wood and timbers. I vaguely remember the "park at your own risk" and not responsible for damage from falling concrete signs. The Big Blue deck was brand new when was able to drive and used to go out to the airport to watch aircraft and/or wander around. (back in the pre-9/11 era when you could wander through security without being a ticketed passengers). Used to love going out there to watch the mid/late afternoon push when the NW 747s would depart for Asia and the early TATL DC-10s headed to Europe.

WidebodyPTV wrote:
The main problem with DTW is overcrowding within the gate holds, which is an inherent inefficiently of the linear concourse design.

The Midfield Terminal was designed with NW’s then fleet in mind. As DL began upgauging flights, 160 seat MD-90 would frequently park at gates designed for the 100 seat DC-9; the transition to larger B739/A321 meant those aircraft would park at gates designed to accommodate the A319 and A320, etc.

This problem was magnified at the North Terminal, whose gate holds are all similar in size. There have been times in which, during the morning rush, nearly all the aircraft were A321/B739/B739 - and keep in mind NK/F9’s A321 hold a similar number of passengers as DL’s B753.

COVID-19 will likely correct this into the near future. Both terminals are overbuilt, so additional capacity isn’t necessary. It’s just the inherent flaw of the linear design.

I know what you mean, but like you said this was a problem pre-COVID and something we aren't likely to see again for a few years.
With the North, I think there were two planning assumptions that weren't fully taken into consideration:
1) Aircraft size; like you said, it was under the assumption of everyone running a lot more RJs and small narrowbodies (under 150 seaters) which was the prevalant aircraft types that were being operated by NK, WN, AA, UA, etc. at the time. It wasn't planned for a bevy of 180-200 seat large narrowbodies.
2) The timing/lumpiness of scheduling throughout the day; As the North Terminal is essentially all O&D and an outstation, the departures are not evenly scheduled throughout the operating day. In normal times, there was a huge surge of departures between 5:30am-8:30am, and then the North terminal was pretty quiet and at times not a single aircraft on the gates midday, and then super-busy again with a ton of departures between 5pm-7pm, and a ton or RON arrivals from 9pm-1am.

DL over in the McNamera, it was always super easy to find a place to sit, there was always an adjacant gate nearby or across the concourse that wasn't being used or was empty. I never understood why everyone felt the need to "camp-out" and crowd the immediate gate area, when right across the hall there would be a completely empty gate. People can spread out. I guess they didn't want to miss an announcement or something.

NWADTWE16 wrote:
Anyone want to talk routes and carrier service. Excited to see a DTW thread again.

Agreed. Good to have this thread DTW-focused thread back. Good to see some familiar names on here as well. Its a good place to get a lot of interesting information about all things going on about all things DTW. Lets please keep it civil, ignore the trolls that tend to drive-by through here, and try to at least not get it locked.

While speculation or wish-list about routes and carriers is great, the reality is that no one really knows what the industry is going to look like when it recovers. Its hard to tell what the demand patterns, traveler & trip purposes will look like, what airlines financial position will be, and what structural and/or strategic changes each airline will make going forward. Basically a lot of what the playbook from 2019 looks like has been tossed in the trash for the near-term. The next couple of months are going to be relatively status-quo pandemic era travel. Jan & Feb are going to look a lot like early- November. Late Feb & March will look a bit better with an uptick of more sun/leisure/beach traffic. Beyond that is a function of how quickly and successful the vaccine roll-out, when restrictions loosen, when international travel restrictions ease, when more people feel comfortable with travel, when mass travel for events and gathers is feasible, and when business travel starts to recover. It will be interesting to see how and when things recover. We aren't getting back to the highwater mark of 2019 for 5-10 years, at least until organic growth in leisure travel replaces whatever percentage of business travel is structurally gone due to changes in the future of work and/or business travel.

r6russian wrote:
What for? North is too big as is. It's got what, like 30 Gates and every time I fly out of the north there's 2-3 each NKs and WNs in the middle and a couple UAs and AAs at the ends, maybe 10 gates occupied total. I can see the Lufthansa a340 needing the ramp space at the end but I wish they'd all use the middle of the terminal so you don't gotta walk 17 miles to get to your plane which no matter what or when, is always at the very end gate

Its in the long-term master plan, which is just that a planning guide for the next 10-20 years to use as a plan for land usage and financial planning. There was no firm plan to expand the North beyond its current footprint pre-Covid (other than the gates that were added due to additional ramp space once the Smith & Berry were demolished). They simply have that area earmarked for future expansion should the need and time come. Basically so they don't go an build something there that would prevent them from future terminal/concourse expansion.
TL/DR they aren't any firm plans for expansion.

And the reason they don't all use the middle is because like most airports in the US, most of the gates on the North are leased by the airlines, and also there are only a sub-set that are FIS-capable, and they are all toward the south end.

umichman wrote:
The wall blocking off the 16 north end gates of Concourse C has been there for like 4 years now.

Concourse C was walled-off above C27 in 2016, and those gates are only used for aircraft parking / hardstands.
They are also currently using the area on the west side of C in the area of closed gates above C27 currently to store/park a ton of GSE that isn't needed due to the significantly reduced flight operations.

Antarius wrote:
Wrong with what?

Someone was commenting about escalators in the North being a problem. I was just curious if they are INOP or just they thought the placement was bad.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:24 am

KarlB737 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
KarlB737 wrote:
Does the airport administration have any plans or even an idea for the vacant space brought forth by specifically the removal of the old Smith Terminal and it's formally connected parking structure.


What do you perceive the need(s) to be that could be satisfied by that space?


My perceptions and/or guesses have been mentioned in the replies that followed. I could follow up by asking if forum members believe that business jets and cargo operations at DTW have ample space at present in your opinion.

Absolutely. There is so much property around the airport that could support whatever future need for business and cargo traffic ever needed.

Cargo - There is area of the east side of the airfield off of Middlebelt. and there is a longer-term vision if ever needed, per the Master Plan to build a west cargo area, west of 4L/22R off of Wayne/Vinning Rd if there ever was such a need. However, there is YIP which is well suited to handle the ad-hoc / on-demand air cargo needs of the automotive industry.

Corporate / GA traffic is similar - a lot of corporate & GA traffic just goes into whatever airport is closer to the regions' various business centers and wealth. PTK, YIP, DET, Oakland-Troy, Oakland-SW New Hudson. Signature got a lot more space and a much bigger facility a few years back when they moved across the airport into the former GM "terminal" / facility.
Last edited by PSU.DTW.SCE on Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Antarius
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:29 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Wrong with what?

Someone was commenting about escalators in the North being a problem. I was just curious if they are INOP or just they thought the placement was bad.


Ahh, wasn't sure which comment it was.

I was there late 2019 and didn't notice any issues either.
 
DaveMetroD
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:32 am

Thanks for the correct time frame on when the north end of C was "permanently" walled off.

In regards to cargo, DTW will never see what other airports do. That in part is do to YIP(Willow Run) 15 miles or so by road to the west.
YIP has recently seen changes to the runways and taxiways to improve the safety and operations there.
 
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klm617
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:38 pm

I would like to address this point here. " We aren't getting back to the highwater mark of 2019 for 5-10 years, at least until organic growth in leisure travel replaces whatever percentage of business travel is structurally gone due to changes in the future of work and/or business travel." If you do not go out an create opportunities to facilitate this growth there is not going to be any. The problem at Detroit has always been the lack of options. You can not generate growth if you continue to have to pay higher than normal fares out of a given market. When every carrier is flying from NYC to Florida for $19 that's going to stimulate growth. That is what is missing at DTW. If you can only rely on limited capacity and high fares you will never move forward. If you had 10 flights a day on 5 different airlines offering $29 fares like in the front line market I guarantee you you will fill each and everyone of those seat facilitating a market that never existed. The business plan going forward at DTW should be to get as much LCC/ULCC service as possible while the market is weak like other cities are doing.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:01 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
The main problem with DTW is overcrowding within the gate holds, which is an inherent inefficiently of the linear concourse design.

The Midfield Terminal was designed with NW’s then fleet in mind. As DL began upgauging flights, 160 seat MD-90 would frequently park at gates designed for the 100 seat DC-9; the transition to larger B739/A321 meant those aircraft would park at gates designed to accommodate the A319 and A320, etc.

This problem was magnified at the North Terminal, whose gate holds are all similar in size. There have been times in which, during the morning rush, nearly all the aircraft were A321/B739/B739 - and keep in mind NK/F9’s A321 hold a similar number of passengers as DL’s B753.

COVID-19 will likely correct this into the near future. Both terminals are overbuilt, so additional capacity isn’t necessary. It’s just the inherent flaw of the linear design.


Can you say 'depth'? Linear design can be efficient for both aircraft movements and passenger step counts.

Increasing depth - to increase gate holding area size - is a little difficult to change after the fact. McNamara utilization is so low (even pre-Covid), however, that there's often an empty gate across the aisle.

The McNamara concourse complex has had problems (the revolving door at the exit to the parking shuttles that had been frequently inoperative for years and was only fixed after a Free Press article citing the fact embarrassed airport admin into doing something about it!), but passenger capacity hasn't been one of them, not from the day it opened in Feb. 2002.
 
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klm617
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:03 pm

DaveMetroD wrote:
Thanks for the correct time frame on when the north end of C was "permanently" walled off.

In regards to cargo, DTW will never see what other airports do. That in part is do to YIP(Willow Run) 15 miles or so by road to the west.
YIP has recently seen changes to the runways and taxiways to improve the safety and operations there.


Hopefully YIP can get some cargo carrier to set up an operating there. YIP is the ideal airport for a cargo hub major city near by and room for growth plus ample runway length. It would be a shame to see this facility go to waste with out realizing it's potential.
 
kavok
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:35 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
The main problem with DTW is overcrowding within the gate holds, which is an inherent inefficiently of the linear concourse design.

The Midfield Terminal was designed with NW’s then fleet in mind. As DL began upgauging flights, 160 seat MD-90 would frequently park at gates designed for the 100 seat DC-9; the transition to larger B739/A321 meant those aircraft would park at gates designed to accommodate the A319 and A320, etc.

This problem was magnified at the North Terminal, whose gate holds are all similar in size. There have been times in which, during the morning rush, nearly all the aircraft were A321/B739/B739 - and keep in mind NK/F9’s A321 hold a similar number of passengers as DL’s B753.

COVID-19 will likely correct this into the near future. Both terminals are overbuilt, so additional capacity isn’t necessary. It’s just the inherent flaw of the linear design.


Can you say 'depth'? Linear design can be efficient for both aircraft movements and passenger step counts.

Increasing depth - to increase gate holding area size - is a little difficult to change after the fact. McNamara utilization is so low (even pre-Covid), however, that there's often an empty gate across the aisle.

The McNamara concourse complex has had problems (the revolving door at the exit to the parking shuttles that had been frequently inoperative for years and was only fixed after a Free Press article citing the fact embarrassed airport admin into doing something about it!), but passenger capacity hasn't been one of them, not from the day it opened in Feb. 2002.


Agreed. And while it would be difficult to find anyone willing to pay for improving it, the “landside to shuttles connection” very well may be the biggest routine negative passenger experience at McNamara (at least for O/D pax).
 
DaveMetroD
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Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:04 pm

klm617 wrote:
DaveMetroD wrote:
Thanks for the correct time frame on when the north end of C was "permanently" walled off.

In regards to cargo, DTW will never see what other airports do. That in part is do to YIP(Willow Run) 15 miles or so by road to the west.
YIP has recently seen changes to the runways and taxiways to improve the safety and operations there.


Hopefully YIP can get some cargo carrier to set up an operating there. YIP is the ideal airport for a cargo hub major city near by and room for growth plus ample runway length. It would be a shame to see this facility go to waste with out realizing it's potential.


Well Kalitta is there. But it's a base and not a hub.
If you're talking about a domestic cargo hub, you want to be closer to the center of the contiguous states.
That's not a knock on Southeast Michigan, it's about geography.

For international cargo it could work based on geography. But consider the obstacles, meaning would the USA trust cargo that is in transit from one country to another?
In these times?
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5467
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:14 pm

DaveMetroD wrote:
klm617 wrote:
DaveMetroD wrote:
Thanks for the correct time frame on when the north end of C was "permanently" walled off.

In regards to cargo, DTW will never see what other airports do. That in part is do to YIP(Willow Run) 15 miles or so by road to the west.
YIP has recently seen changes to the runways and taxiways to improve the safety and operations there.


Hopefully YIP can get some cargo carrier to set up an operating there. YIP is the ideal airport for a cargo hub major city near by and room for growth plus ample runway length. It would be a shame to see this facility go to waste with out realizing it's potential.


Well Kalitta is there. But it's a base and not a hub.
If you're talking about a domestic cargo hub, you want to be closer to the center of the contiguous states.
That's not a knock on Southeast Michigan, it's about geography.

For international cargo it could work based on geography. But consider the obstacles, meaning would the USA trust cargo that is in transit from one country to another?
In these times?


Well you have LCK and CVG that are not much closer to the contiguous USA than YIP is and CVG has 2 cargo hubs. There is a lot of income potential there that is literally rotting away. You would think an air cargo hub would be a priority considering the Aerotroplis that the county is promoting.

https://www.detroitaero.org/
 
DaveMetroD
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:05 pm

Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:24 pm

We at DTW do have viable options.
At the beginning of 2017 I took a trip to the Cook Islands and then Australia. It was solo and I knew sitting up front had to happen.
During the initial planning and 90 days out I looked into DTW-LAX-SYD and return.
Delta wanted $25,000.00 for Business Class.
My entire vacation(flight, rooms, cars etc.) cost way less than that because I chose to fly United over to Chicago and used United and Air New Zealand.
Of 15 flights all but 2 were up front. There's no upfront on Air Rarotonga.
I used Virgin Australia while there which did give me Delta SkyMiles.
It really wasn't much of an inconvenience to use the itinerary that I did.
If enough people would use their options, Delta would notice.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5467
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:03 pm

DaveMetroD wrote:
We at DTW do have viable options.
At the beginning of 2017 I took a trip to the Cook Islands and then Australia. It was solo and I knew sitting up front had to happen.
During the initial planning and 90 days out I looked into DTW-LAX-SYD and return.
Delta wanted $25,000.00 for Business Class.
My entire vacation(flight, rooms, cars etc.) cost way less than that because I chose to fly United over to Chicago and used United and Air New Zealand.
Of 15 flights all but 2 were up front. There's no upfront on Air Rarotonga.
I used Virgin Australia while there which did give me Delta SkyMiles.
It really wasn't much of an inconvenience to use the itinerary that I did.
If enough people would use their options, Delta would notice.


Truth but in doing so we have to start and end all our trips at DTW. I am always using the best alternative price and schedule wise.
 
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tb727
Posts: 2306
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:40 pm

Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:51 pm

Antarius wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Wrong with what?

Someone was commenting about escalators in the North being a problem. I was just curious if they are INOP or just they thought the placement was bad.


Ahh, wasn't sure which comment it was.

I was there late 2019 and didn't notice any issues either.


The down escalator on the parking/rental car/hotel shuttle side at the North has been broken and out of service for over a year now. A couple weeks ago, one of the 2 elevators over there was broken as well.
 
jplatts
Posts: 5093
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:09 pm

NK adding DTW-BNA/PHX nonstop service are possibilities with both BNA and PHX being leisure destinations and with NK already having an established customer base in the DTW market to support nonstop service to BNA and PHX on NK.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5467
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:08 pm

I think DTW and CLE working together to get Icelandair back would be a great idea. A routing of KEF-CLE-DTW-KEF would work well and then once the route gets established it could be separated. Both airports working together could provide a better incentive package and fill a real need for both airports.
 
kavok
Posts: 994
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:22 pm

While obviously much diminished, here are the scheduled 2021 long haul flights as of Jan 2021 (some flights are less than 7x weekly):

On the TATL side:
DL to AMS - currently operating
AF to CDG - currently operating
DL to CDG - currently scheduled to resume in March
DL to LHR - currently scheduled to resume in March
LH to FRA - currently scheduled to resume in March
DL to FRA - currently scheduled to resume in May

On the TPAC side:
DL to ICN - currently operating
DL to PVG - operating with an ICN stopover.
DL to HND - currently operating
DL to NGO - currently scheduled to resume in March

Not scheduled for 2021:
DL to MUC, LH to MUC, DL to FCO, DL to PKX
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:27 pm

DaveMetroD wrote:
We at DTW do have viable options.
At the beginning of 2017 I took a trip to the Cook Islands and then Australia. It was solo and I knew sitting up front had to happen.
During the initial planning and 90 days out I looked into DTW-LAX-SYD and return.
Delta wanted $25,000.00 for Business Class.
My entire vacation(flight, rooms, cars etc.) cost way less than that because I chose to fly United over to Chicago and used United and Air New Zealand.
Of 15 flights all but 2 were up front. There's no upfront on Air Rarotonga.
I used Virgin Australia while there which did give me Delta SkyMiles.
It really wasn't much of an inconvenience to use the itinerary that I did.
If enough people would use their options, Delta would notice.


Most people don't have the time to do this.

It was 1100 weekly between SFO and CLT for me. I could work it down by getting creative, but that would have taken a lot of time out my day (in addition to the large amount used already)
 
NWADTWE16
Posts: 746
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:12 am

Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:35 pm

Nice schedule Kavok, thats what i was hoping to see. A little rundown of where we are at now , which shows what were missing, and then as carriers add it could be fun. Weve already seen some very fun adds across the country during this "interesting" time in aviation, and i think DTW has seen some new adds or at least frequency additions to Latin America, Mexico and the Caribbean.

I also agree completely, that DTW has failed with Cargo and it makes no sense being so much is produced in the area. The "decentralized" Cargo ops , scaterred throughout the field have to be one reason, and i get YIP might draw some action as well, but lets face it YIP is going nowhere really so this is again DTW's to lose. I think breaking ground asap on a large, centralized Cargo facility should be the airports #1 goal right now, perhaps after fixing this dangerous traffiic situation reported by Tower whistleblowers. Cargo is always going to be good at DTW and looking only better if they have the right facilities, large cold units, storage etc.

Last part id like to add right now is my concern for years about the obsession with Tower routing all or most all takeoffs from 21C. I dont full understand the latest runway project in that area so that may shed some light, but for as long as i can remember, they send even international heavies from this runway. Thats just an unneeded risk right? I mean it lessens the margin for error badly and if one did have a bad engine out near rotate it could be the determining factor. Cheers to the good convo all~
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5467
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:37 pm

kavok wrote:
While obviously much diminished, here are the scheduled 2021 long haul flights as of Jan 2021 (some flights are less than 7x weekly):

On the TATL side:
DL to AMS - currently operating
AF to CDG - currently operating
DL to CDG - currently scheduled to resume in March
DL to LHR - currently scheduled to resume in March
LH to FRA - currently scheduled to resume in March
DL to FRA - currently scheduled to resume in May

On the TPAC side:
DL to ICN - currently operating
DL to PVG - operating with an ICN stopover.
DL to HND - currently operating
DL to NGO - currently scheduled to resume in March

Not scheduled for 2021:
DL to MUC, LH to MUC, DL to FCO, DL to PKX


I think it's more important to get LH on DTW-MUC than Delta as LH would be more committed to the route than Delta in terms of running it year round . Also is RJ currently ruining DTW-YUL-AMM.
 
NWADTWE16
Posts: 746
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:12 am

Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:48 pm

yes they are, its scheduled on Friday as RJ268 departing 615pm with stop YUL arriving AMM following day at 215pm. Operated by 787
 
GSP psgr
Posts: 800
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:09 am

Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:19 pm

kavok wrote:
While obviously much diminished, here are the scheduled 2021 long haul flights as of Jan 2021 (some flights are less than 7x weekly):

On the TATL side:
DL to AMS - currently operating
AF to CDG - currently operating
DL to CDG - currently scheduled to resume in March
DL to LHR - currently scheduled to resume in March
LH to FRA - currently scheduled to resume in March
DL to FRA - currently scheduled to resume in May

On the TPAC side:
DL to ICN - currently operating
DL to PVG - operating with an ICN stopover.
DL to HND - currently operating
DL to NGO - currently scheduled to resume in March

Not scheduled for 2021:
DL to MUC, LH to MUC, DL to FCO, DL to PKX


If you think about it, all things considered, that's not too bad for where we are now. DL to FCO will almost certainly be back as a summer seasonal post-COVID in '22. I do wonder long term about DTW-Germany traffic flows, and what will be sustainable if business travel demand drops due to increased video/teleconferencing. I think MUC takes awhile to return on DL, and I'm surprised the DL FRA route is returning as quickly as it will; ditto for NGO. As a side note, I've always found it somewhat odd that DL's one year round is to FRA, which I associate more with banking than industrial production-although we know from past experience that DTW-DUS was a complete flop when NW tried it.
 
DaveMetroD
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:05 pm

Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:33 pm

Antarius wrote:
DaveMetroD wrote:
We at DTW do have viable options.
At the beginning of 2017 I took a trip to the Cook Islands and then Australia. It was solo and I knew sitting up front had to happen.
During the initial planning and 90 days out I looked into DTW-LAX-SYD and return.
Delta wanted $25,000.00 for Business Class.
My entire vacation(flight, rooms, cars etc.) cost way less than that because I chose to fly United over to Chicago and used United and Air New Zealand.
Of 15 flights all but 2 were up front. There's no upfront on Air Rarotonga.
I used Virgin Australia while there which did give me Delta SkyMiles.
It really wasn't much of an inconvenience to use the itinerary that I did.
If enough people would use their options, Delta would notice.


Most people don't have the time to do this.

It was 1100 weekly between SFO and CLT for me. I could work it down by getting creative, but that would have taken a lot of time out my day (in addition to the large amount used already)


I hear you. I used ITA Matrix. It you don't have the time, and many don't, you will end up paying more. A friends friend about 15 years ago had to do the DTW-SYD trip. The walk-up business fare was $35,000.00.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5467
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:47 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
kavok wrote:
While obviously much diminished, here are the scheduled 2021 long haul flights as of Jan 2021 (some flights are less than 7x weekly):

On the TATL side:
DL to AMS - currently operating
AF to CDG - currently operating
DL to CDG - currently scheduled to resume in March
DL to LHR - currently scheduled to resume in March
LH to FRA - currently scheduled to resume in March
DL to FRA - currently scheduled to resume in May

On the TPAC side:
DL to ICN - currently operating
DL to PVG - operating with an ICN stopover.
DL to HND - currently operating
DL to NGO - currently scheduled to resume in March

Not scheduled for 2021:
DL to MUC, LH to MUC, DL to FCO, DL to PKX


If you think about it, all things considered, that's not too bad for where we are now. DL to FCO will almost certainly be back as a summer seasonal post-COVID in '22. I do wonder long term about DTW-Germany traffic flows, and what will be sustainable if business travel demand drops due to increased video/teleconferencing. I think MUC takes awhile to return on DL, and I'm surprised the DL FRA route is returning as quickly as it will; ditto for NGO. As a side note, I've always found it somewhat odd that DL's one year round is to FRA, which I associate more with banking than industrial production-although we know from past experience that DTW-DUS was a complete flop when NW tried it.


DTW-DUS was not a complete flop. I hope that LH coms in on DTW-MUC if Delta drags their feet coming back. DTW-MUC is a highly cooperate automotive route. There is a lot of cargo on Detroit-Germany routes.
Last edited by klm617 on Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
DaveMetroD
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:05 pm

Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:49 pm

NWADTWE16 wrote:
Nice schedule Kavok, thats what i was hoping to see. A little rundown of where we are at now , which shows what were missing, and then as carriers add it could be fun. Weve already seen some very fun adds across the country during this "interesting" time in aviation, and i think DTW has seen some new adds or at least frequency additions to Latin America, Mexico and the Caribbean.

I also agree completely, that DTW has failed with Cargo and it makes no sense being so much is produced in the area. The "decentralized" Cargo ops , scaterred throughout the field have to be one reason, and i get YIP might draw some action as well, but lets face it YIP is going nowhere really so this is again DTW's to lose. I think breaking ground asap on a large, centralized Cargo facility should be the airports #1 goal right now, perhaps after fixing this dangerous traffiic situation reported by Tower whistleblowers. Cargo is always going to be good at DTW and looking only better if they have the right facilities, large cold units, storage etc.

Last part id like to add right now is my concern for years about the obsession with Tower routing all or most all takeoffs from 21C. I dont full understand the latest runway project in that area so that may shed some light, but for as long as i can remember, they send even international heavies from this runway. Thats just an unneeded risk right? I mean it lessens the margin for error badly and if one did have a bad engine out near rotate it could be the determining factor. Cheers to the good convo all~


Not sure which runway you're referencing. 21C as a runway identifier has been gone a lot longer than the wall has been up in the C Concourse :)
Over the summer/fall 21R(former 21C) was only available for landings. I don't know the exact reason but it was construction related.
I don't believe 21R is suitable for widebody takeoffs, even if empty and after its' reconstruction.
The 2 engine widebodies can and do use 21L and 22R.
Of course the long and wide runway is 22L. They send the 4 engine widebodies there. That would help minimize potential FOD issues with the outer engines.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5467
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:50 pm

DaveMetroD wrote:
Antarius wrote:
DaveMetroD wrote:
We at DTW do have viable options.
At the beginning of 2017 I took a trip to the Cook Islands and then Australia. It was solo and I knew sitting up front had to happen.
During the initial planning and 90 days out I looked into DTW-LAX-SYD and return.
Delta wanted $25,000.00 for Business Class.
My entire vacation(flight, rooms, cars etc.) cost way less than that because I chose to fly United over to Chicago and used United and Air New Zealand.
Of 15 flights all but 2 were up front. There's no upfront on Air Rarotonga.
I used Virgin Australia while there which did give me Delta SkyMiles.
It really wasn't much of an inconvenience to use the itinerary that I did.
If enough people would use their options, Delta would notice.


Most people don't have the time to do this.

It was 1100 weekly between SFO and CLT for me. I could work it down by getting creative, but that would have taken a lot of time out my day (in addition to the large amount used already)


I hear you. I used ITA Matrix. It you don't have the time, and many don't, you will end up paying more. A friends friend about 15 years ago had to do the DTW-SYD trip. The walk-up business fare was $35,000.00.


Not only the time but the expertise to do it. When I want to do something like this I have a travel agent to do the leg work. She is very adept and finding good fares and circumventing the high prices that are sometimes charged out of DTW.
 
DaveMetroD
Posts: 115
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:05 pm

Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:58 pm

klm617 wrote:
DaveMetroD wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Most people don't have the time to do this.

It was 1100 weekly between SFO and CLT for me. I could work it down by getting creative, but that would have taken a lot of time out my day (in addition to the large amount used already)


I hear you. I used ITA Matrix. It you don't have the time, and many don't, you will end up paying more. A friends friend about 15 years ago had to do the DTW-SYD trip. The walk-up business fare was $35,000.00.


Not only the time but the expertise to do it. When I want to do something like this I have a travel agent to do the leg work. She is very adept and finding good fares and circumventing the high prices that are sometimes charged out of DTW.


In line with that observation, I should have added once I had the ITA itinerary, their suggestion to call the airline with codes wasn't going to work for me.
I found that AMEX was offering the ITA itinerary I had as the first choice.

There are viable choices to Delta available. That is what's important. But Delta knows most either won't have or won't take the time to investigate the alternatives.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3555
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:26 am

DaveMetroD wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
Nice schedule Kavok, thats what i was hoping to see. A little rundown of where we are at now , which shows what were missing, and then as carriers add it could be fun. Weve already seen some very fun adds across the country during this "interesting" time in aviation, and i think DTW has seen some new adds or at least frequency additions to Latin America, Mexico and the Caribbean.

I also agree completely, that DTW has failed with Cargo and it makes no sense being so much is produced in the area. The "decentralized" Cargo ops , scaterred throughout the field have to be one reason, and i get YIP might draw some action as well, but lets face it YIP is going nowhere really so this is again DTW's to lose. I think breaking ground asap on a large, centralized Cargo facility should be the airports #1 goal right now, perhaps after fixing this dangerous traffiic situation reported by Tower whistleblowers. Cargo is always going to be good at DTW and looking only better if they have the right facilities, large cold units, storage etc.

Last part id like to add right now is my concern for years about the obsession with Tower routing all or most all takeoffs from 21C. I dont full understand the latest runway project in that area so that may shed some light, but for as long as i can remember, they send even international heavies from this runway. Thats just an unneeded risk right? I mean it lessens the margin for error badly and if one did have a bad engine out near rotate it could be the determining factor. Cheers to the good convo all~


Not sure which runway you're referencing. 21C as a runway identifier has been gone a lot longer than the wall has been up in the C Concourse :)
Over the summer/fall 21R(former 21C) was only available for landings. I don't know the exact reason but it was construction related.
I don't believe 21R is suitable for widebody takeoffs, even if empty and after its' reconstruction.
The 2 engine widebodies can and do use 21L and 22R.
Of course the long and wide runway is 22L. They send the 4 engine widebodies there. That would help minimize potential FOD issues with the outer engines.


21R/3L were NOTAM'd takeoff only, not to be used for landing. I've seen 767's take off on 21R, probably for domestic flying, but you never know.
 
User avatar
tb727
Posts: 2306
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:40 pm

Re: DTW (Detroit aviation) thread 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:28 am

DaveMetroD wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
Nice schedule Kavok, thats what i was hoping to see. A little rundown of where we are at now , which shows what were missing, and then as carriers add it could be fun. Weve already seen some very fun adds across the country during this "interesting" time in aviation, and i think DTW has seen some new adds or at least frequency additions to Latin America, Mexico and the Caribbean.

I also agree completely, that DTW has failed with Cargo and it makes no sense being so much is produced in the area. The "decentralized" Cargo ops , scaterred throughout the field have to be one reason, and i get YIP might draw some action as well, but lets face it YIP is going nowhere really so this is again DTW's to lose. I think breaking ground asap on a large, centralized Cargo facility should be the airports #1 goal right now, perhaps after fixing this dangerous traffiic situation reported by Tower whistleblowers. Cargo is always going to be good at DTW and looking only better if they have the right facilities, large cold units, storage etc.

Last part id like to add right now is my concern for years about the obsession with Tower routing all or most all takeoffs from 21C. I dont full understand the latest runway project in that area so that may shed some light, but for as long as i can remember, they send even international heavies from this runway. Thats just an unneeded risk right? I mean it lessens the margin for error badly and if one did have a bad engine out near rotate it could be the determining factor. Cheers to the good convo all~


Not sure which runway you're referencing. 21C as a runway identifier has been gone a lot longer than the wall has been up in the C Concourse :)
Over the summer/fall 21R(former 21C) was only available for landings. I don't know the exact reason but it was construction related.
I don't believe 21R is suitable for widebody takeoffs, even if empty and after its' reconstruction.
The 2 engine widebodies can and do use 21L and 22R.
Of course the long and wide runway is 22L. They send the 4 engine widebodies there. That would help minimize potential FOD issues with the outer engines.


Widebodies use 21R/3L often. The 350 can make ICN off it, which is quite impressive. There are some spotter videos on YouTube of them doing it. LH 340's have used it as well, FOD isn't an issue.
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