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Aliqiout
Posts: 585
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:56 pm

ahj2000 wrote:
Lootess wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:

The press release stated “inter line partners” out of JNB though. Do they interline with SAA? Was very confused… even if they interline, it’s not like those are easy tickets to book/find either for the general public


I believe they still have an interline agreement with SAA, plus they used to be a Skymiles partner before they joined Star Alliance and left ATL.

Nothing seems bootable on delta.com? Everything goes over AMS

Even before the mass restriction on combinability delta.com was much less willing to offer interline fares than AA,AS, and UA. Interline tickets are available on all the reputable third party sites. Interestingly of the random day I picked to search the fares on ATL-JNB-CPT were exactly the same as ATL-AMS-CPT.
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 532
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:32 am

The JNB connection at AMS is I believe offered via a KL codeshare through KL591, which is a daily AMS-JNB leaving at 1035 local time
 
dcajet
Posts: 5202
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:26 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
....and another cut...

Widebody Flying by Fleet Type at ATL

Delta 47

A332 5
LOS 1
MSP 1
PHX 1
SLC 2

A333 13
AMS 1
BOS 1
CDG 1
CUN 1
DTW 2
FCO 1
FRA 1
GRU 1
HNL 1
LHR 1
SLC 2

A359 4
AMS 1
CDG 1
HND 1
ICN 1

B763 10
ANC 1
BOG 1
JFK 1
LAS 1
LIM 1
MCO 2
MSP 1
SAN 1
SCL 1

B764 15
DEN 2
LAS 3
LAX 1
PDX 2
SAN 2
SEA 1
SFO 1
SJU 3
Grand Total 47


EZE is missing from the list. Currently operated with 763.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3669
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 26, 2021 9:04 pm

dcajet wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
....and another cut...

Widebody Flying by Fleet Type at ATL

Delta 47

A332 5
LOS 1
MSP 1
PHX 1
SLC 2

A333 13
AMS 1
BOS 1
CDG 1
CUN 1
DTW 2
FCO 1
FRA 1
GRU 1
HNL 1
LHR 1
SLC 2

A359 4
AMS 1
CDG 1
HND 1
ICN 1

B763 10
ANC 1
BOG 1
JFK 1
LAS 1
LIM 1
MCO 2
MSP 1
SAN 1
SCL 1

B764 15
DEN 2
LAS 3
LAX 1
PDX 2
SAN 2
SEA 1
SFO 1
SJU 3
Grand Total 47


EZE is missing from the list. Currently operated with 763.


He caveated his post on that it was only on 6/23. So the list is not missing EZE if it didn’t operate that day.
 
dcajet
Posts: 5202
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:16 am

jbs2886 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
....and another cut...

Widebody Flying by Fleet Type at ATL

Delta 47

A332 5
LOS 1
MSP 1
PHX 1
SLC 2

A333 13
AMS 1
BOS 1
CDG 1
CUN 1
DTW 2
FCO 1
FRA 1
GRU 1
HNL 1
LHR 1
SLC 2

A359 4
AMS 1
CDG 1
HND 1
ICN 1

B763 10
ANC 1
BOG 1
JFK 1
LAS 1
LIM 1
MCO 2
MSP 1
SAN 1
SCL 1

B764 15
DEN 2
LAS 3
LAX 1
PDX 2
SAN 2
SEA 1
SFO 1
SJU 3
Grand Total 47


EZE is missing from the list. Currently operated with 763.


He caveated his post on that it was only on 6/23. So the list is not missing EZE if it didn’t operate that day.


Indeed he did and I missed it. My apologies.
 
asuflyer
Posts: 828
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:48 pm

DL adds JFK-PTY, GCM

Sun Jul 11, 2021 8:27 pm

Delta is adding GCM and PTY from JFK starting December 18th and December 19th respectively.
GCM will be operated 1 weekly, and PTY will be operated 4 weekly, both operated with 738’s. GCM is a service resumption having been operated several years ago. There is no press release yet however the flights have been loaded and bookable in the GDS.
 
x1234
Posts: 1227
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: DL adds JFK-PTY, GCM

Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:40 pm

If there's a central American market that needs service its PTY. PTY has global businesses from the canal to trans-shipping. There's also Asian connection demand via JFK that AA fails to serve via DFW pre-COVID.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10471
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DL adds JFK-PTY, GCM

Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:14 pm

x1234 wrote:
There's also Asian connection demand via JFK that AA fails to serve via DFW pre-COVID.


DL certainly isn't serving that. Nor is UA at EWR, apparently.
 
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adamh8297
Posts: 3325
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:28 pm

Re: DL adds JFK-PTY, GCM

Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:20 pm

x1234 wrote:
If there's a central American market that needs service its PTY. PTY has global businesses from the canal to trans-shipping. There's also Asian connection demand via JFK that AA fails to serve via DFW pre-COVID.


Isn't CM cutting back on everything sans MIA/FLL lately?
 
Prost
Posts: 2721
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: DL adds JFK-PTY, GCM

Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:28 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
There's also Asian connection demand via JFK that AA fails to serve via DFW pre-COVID.


DL certainly isn't serving that. Nor is UA at EWR, apparently.

Not even with their partners?
 
bfitzflyer
Posts: 579
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:02 am

Re: DL adds JFK-PTY, GCM

Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:30 pm

Before this goes off the rails with connections to Asia. Nice relatively low risk adds.
 
maverick4002
Posts: 488
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:14 pm

Re: DL adds JFK-PTY, GCM

Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:42 pm

x1234 wrote:
If there's a central American market that needs service its PTY. PTY has global businesses from the canal to trans-shipping. There's also Asian connection demand via JFK that AA fails to serve via DFW pre-COVID.


Umm Copa?
 
avi8
Posts: 1440
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:36 am

Re: DL adds JFK-PTY, GCM

Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:54 pm

x1234 wrote:
If there's a central American market that needs service its PTY. PTY has global businesses from the canal to trans-shipping. There's also Asian connection demand via JFK that AA fails to serve via DFW pre-COVID.


There are 4 daily flights from CM to JFK today and a flight to EWR in UA. More than enough capacity, but definitely needs more competition.
 
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usxguy
Posts: 1989
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Re: DL adds JFK-PTY, GCM

Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:00 am

adamh8297 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
If there's a central American market that needs service its PTY. PTY has global businesses from the canal to trans-shipping. There's also Asian connection demand via JFK that AA fails to serve via DFW pre-COVID.


Isn't CM cutting back on everything sans MIA/FLL lately?


Copa is making some adjustments as other airlines bring back more Central/South America. Copa has some seriously high load factors just because they're the only ones operating with some type of connectivity across their network. I think I saw somewhere that Florida markets are the busiest ever in CM's history.
 
PITFlyer330
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri May 14, 2021 4:56 am

Re: DL adds JFK-PTY, GCM

Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:31 am

asuflyer wrote:
Delta is adding GCM and PTY from JFK starting December 18th and December 19th respectively.
GCM will be operated 1 weekly, and PTY will be operated 4 weekly, both operated with 738’s. GCM is a service resumption having been operated several years ago. There is no press release yet however the flights have been loaded and bookable in the GDS.


aero network says gcm was last served in 2016 and pty 2008 https://twitter.com/theaeronetwork/stat ... 05217?s=20
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4393
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: DL adds JFK-PTY, GCM

Mon Jul 12, 2021 2:13 am

GCM should do fine.
I foresee a quick exit from JFKPTY.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3543
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: DL adds JFK-PTY, GCM

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:24 am

usxguy wrote:
adamh8297 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
If there's a central American market that needs service its PTY. PTY has global businesses from the canal to trans-shipping. There's also Asian connection demand via JFK that AA fails to serve via DFW pre-COVID.


Isn't CM cutting back on everything sans MIA/FLL lately?


Copa is making some adjustments as other airlines bring back more Central/South America. Copa has some seriously high load factors just because they're the only ones operating with some type of connectivity across their network. I think I saw somewhere that Florida markets are the busiest ever in CM's history.


Yeah, CM is up to something like 9 daily on MIA-PTY. Crazy.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1793
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: DL adds JFK-PTY, GCM

Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:33 am

Adding leisure destinations during a time of low business travel seems pragmatic.
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 2225
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

Delta at PNS and VPS

Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:17 pm

With the amazing growth that both of these airports have experienced with the emergence of the Florida panhandle as the newest hot tourist destination (Spirit adding PNS, Southwest adding cities at PNS and adding VPS as a new city, American upgrading the mainline on most flights to PNS and most at VPS as well not to forget Allegiants huge focus city at VPS), Delta still only operates flights to ATL for both cities granted on multiple daily mainline and is the market leader. But for how long? All of the other legacies offer multiple destinations as well as the LCCs. Why hasn’t Delta tried adding MSP and/or DTW from these cities? Before the merger Northwest had flights to PNS from MSP and weekends to DTW. Is Delta content with ATL from these cities or will they eventually expand their horizons?
Last edited by CIDFlyer on Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
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Polot
Posts: 12665
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:25 pm

There is no need with the ATL mega hub right next door and no competitors on the listed routes.

DL is now a smaller carrier. That means fewer hub overflying flights as DL bolsters their hubs with clear defined spheres of influence. Smaller Southeast cities is ATL’s role.
 
jplatts
Posts: 5301
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:21 am

CIDFlyer wrote:
Why hasn’t Delta tried adding MSP and/or DTW from these cities? Before the merger Northwest had flights to PNS from MSP and weekends to DTW. Is Delta content with ATL from these cities or will they eventually expand their horizons?


NK adding PNS-DTW/MSP nonstop service might be a possibility with NK already serving PNS nonstop from CMH, IND, MCI, and STL in the Midwest.

DL adding PNS-DTW/MSP nonstop service might be a possibility as DL now has to worry about NK possibly adding these two routes with NK recently entering PNS and serving PNS nonstop from other Midwestern cities whereas DL didn't have to worry about a competitor adding DTW-PNS nonstop service prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

DL would also be able to offer 1-stop connecting service to PNS from some destinations in the Midwest, Northwest, and Canadian Prairies that don't have nonstop service to ATL if DL adds PNS-DTW/MSP nonstop service.
 
jplatts
Posts: 5301
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:33 am

I had also mentioned the possibility of DL re-adding CVG-PNS nonstop service with (a) UA having recently added CVG-PNS nonstop service, (b) DL being much bigger than UA in both markets, and (c) DL planning on re-adding some other nonstop routes out of CVG as demand recovers.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4393
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:39 am

There is little interest from MSP residents in FL panhandle service. If you are going to fly, it might as well be to the warmer parts of Florida and if you want a cheap trip, MSP already has service to GPT and HRL
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5560
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:06 am

DL isn’t even the market leader in PNS or VPS. AA is now bigger in both markets…plus right now in the summer WN is bigger at PNS and G4 is bigger at VPS.

That said, I don’t think DL is interested in chasing all the leisure traffic and will stick to ATL. DL is offering a Saturday only LGA-PNS, but not counting on much else.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2462
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:46 am

FlyPNS1 wrote:
DL isn’t even the market leader in PNS or VPS. AA is now bigger in both markets…plus right now in the summer WN is bigger at PNS and G4 is bigger at VPS.

That said, I don’t think DL is interested in chasing all the leisure traffic and will stick to ATL. DL is offering a Saturday only LGA-PNS, but not counting on much else.


I remember when I was stationed at Hurlburt Field in 1970-71 and our only carrier at VPS was Southern to ATL. They operated from a little terminal just to the right of the approach end of Rwy30 off of 2nd street.
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 2225
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:20 am

usflyer msp wrote:
There is little interest from MSP residents in FL panhandle service. If you are going to fly, it might as well be to the warmer parts of Florida and if you want a cheap trip, MSP already has service to GPT and HRL
. Wouldn’t be geared just for MSP but for the region as a whole. Many markets in the upper Midwest don’t have an ATL flight. NW ran daily year round flights from MSP to PNS in the mid 2000s. As someone who’s folks have wintered in this area for. 23 years and I’ve visited every year and have seen the growth there are lots of Minnesota license plates as well as Wisconsin. Allegiant runs Saint Cloud to VPS in the summer so there is definitely some market there
Last edited by CIDFlyer on Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 2225
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:22 am

FlyPNS1 wrote:
DL isn’t even the market leader in PNS or VPS. AA is now bigger in both markets…plus right now in the summer WN is bigger at PNS and G4 is bigger at VPS.

That said, I don’t think DL is interested in chasing all the leisure traffic and will stick to ATL. DL is offering a Saturday only LGA-PNS, but not counting on much else.


I was wondering if AA had overtaken DL. DFW is all mainline and then there’s also the multiple flights to CLT and also MIA, DCA, ORD seasonal and PHL. It just seems like DL could add a little more connectivity more than anything this has been a long time bread and butter market for them.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:00 am

CIDFlyer wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
There is little interest from MSP residents in FL panhandle service. If you are going to fly, it might as well be to the warmer parts of Florida and if you want a cheap trip, MSP already has service to GPT and HRL
. Wouldn’t be geared just for MSP but for the region as a whole. Many markets in the upper Midwest don’t have an ATL flight. NW ran daily year round flights from MSP to PNS in the mid 2000s. As someone who’s folks have wintered in this area for. 23 years and I’ve visited every year and have seen the growth there are lots of Minnesota license plates as well as Wisconsin. Allegiant runs Saint Cloud to VPS in the summer so there is definitely some market there


The problem is that north of, say, Saint Louis, the demand to the Panhandle drops off a cliff. I grew up in Chicago and knew literally no one who vacationed in the Panhandle.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4393
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:07 am

Cubsrule wrote:
CIDFlyer wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
There is little interest from MSP residents in FL panhandle service. If you are going to fly, it might as well be to the warmer parts of Florida and if you want a cheap trip, MSP already has service to GPT and HRL
. Wouldn’t be geared just for MSP but for the region as a whole. Many markets in the upper Midwest don’t have an ATL flight. NW ran daily year round flights from MSP to PNS in the mid 2000s. As someone who’s folks have wintered in this area for. 23 years and I’ve visited every year and have seen the growth there are lots of Minnesota license plates as well as Wisconsin. Allegiant runs Saint Cloud to VPS in the summer so there is definitely some market there


The problem is that north of, say, Saint Louis, the demand to the Panhandle drops off a cliff. I grew up in Chicago and knew literally no one who vacationed in the Panhandle.


Right, the panhandle was initially popular because it was less than a days drive from most of the South and lower portions of the Midwest. It is mainly a summer beach destination while most people in the upper Midwest are interested in visiting Florida in the winter. I will also add G4 recently ended STC-VPS early because of VPS congestion but I think it is pretty good assumption that they cut the worst performing flights.
 
TW870
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Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:08 am

CIDFlyer wrote:
FlyPNS1 wrote:
DL isn’t even the market leader in PNS or VPS. AA is now bigger in both markets…plus right now in the summer WN is bigger at PNS and G4 is bigger at VPS.

That said, I don’t think DL is interested in chasing all the leisure traffic and will stick to ATL. DL is offering a Saturday only LGA-PNS, but not counting on much else.


I was wondering if AA had overtaken DL. DFW is all mainline and then there’s also the multiple flights to CLT and also MIA, DCA, ORD seasonal and PHL. It just seems like DL could add a little more connectivity more than anything this has been a long time bread and butter market for them.


I think the whole issue is the positioning of hubs for the legacy carriers. Delta has excellent economics through Atlanta from both stations. VPS is 2x717, 4x320, and 1x321. PNS is mostly 739s and 321s for eight daily flights. Their other hubs are smaller and much further away and don't serve that many markets without ATL service. I just don't see a relatively long thin route on MSP-PNS or MSP-VPS on a 717 or a CR9 being added just to allow 1-stop service from Escanaba or Bemidji or one of the few stations with no ATL service. American has the advantage of a second close, strong hub in CLT, and another hub in the closest east coast mega-city to the panhandle (DCA). United basically does nothing in either station because it has no nearby strong hub to offer a frequent, efficient schedule. They don't even fly IAD-VPS, for example, and only serve VPS with RJs from IAH and a single RJ from ORD.
 
evank516
Posts: 2294
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:37 am

What’s the point? ATL is almost an all access pass for DL travelers at these two out stations. ATL will get all of them where they need to go.
 
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spinotter
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Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:46 am

Polot wrote:
There is no need with the ATL mega hub right next door and no competitors on the listed routes.

DL is now a smaller carrier. That means fewer hub overflying flights as DL bolsters their hubs with clear defined spheres of influence. Smaller Southeast cities is ATL’s role.


Interesting comment about DL now being a smaller carrier. When (if ever) can we foresee Delta getting back to the same number of flights and RPM's as before the pandemic, at least for its domestic network? Will some of the route reductions (such as MSP to PNS) be permanent?
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5560
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:44 am

Cubsrule wrote:

The problem is that north of, say, Saint Louis, the demand to the Panhandle drops off a cliff. I grew up in Chicago and knew literally no one who vacationed in the Panhandle.


That was definitely true 20 years ago, but certainly changing. This summer PNS has three flights a day to the Chicago area (on UA/AA/WN) and on some peak days (like Saturdays), the number jumps to five flights a day. G4 also seems to be finding a niche with some more northern markets with routes like OMA-VPS, DSM-VPS and GRR-VPS.

Obviously, I don't think DL wants most of this leisure traffic hence they just funnel people through ATL. It works for DL. The only catch is that DL does start to lose some of the business traffic to markets like PNS, when other carriers like AA offer routes like DCA-PNS nonstop and DL forces a connection through ATL.
 
jplatts
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Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:47 am

MSP actually had stronger demand to the Florida Panhandle in Q1 2019 than DTW did.

Here were the PDEW's to PNS/VPS/ECP from MSP and DTW in Q1 2019:
MSP-PNS - 59
MSP-VPS - 41
MSP-ECP - 37

DTW-PNS - 39
DTW-VPS - 17
DTW-ECP - 22

MSP can likely support nonstop service to PNS on DL on a regional jet, an A220-100, or a 717 with the amount of demand that is there to PNS to MSP. DL would also have some connecting traffic in addition to O&D to support nonstop service to PNS from MSP.
 
kavok
Posts: 1036
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:53 pm

I agree with the earlier posters that the Panhandle just isn’t a big enough draw to the Upper Midwest for DL to justify nonstops to MSP/DTW. There isn’t much business travel, and the leisure travel that does exist is very low yielding (even for leisure), which is not the market DL is going for.

People in DTW/MSP who are willing to spend the money to fly to Florida are mostly not choosing the Pandhandle. The Panhandle is not reliably warm enough in Jan/Feb/Mar for a beach vacation, and hence DTW/MSP pax will head further south if they fly.

The summer tourism in the panhandle tends to be people within a day drive and the “beat the heat, go to the beach” traffic from the South and lower Midwest… and not so much from DTW/MSP whose locals tend to vacation elsewhere in the summer months. Point being, DL having a bunch of flights to ATL is probably the better option then a long/thin route to DTW/MSP for bottom barrel leisure fares. The rest can drive or take G4.
 
Cubsrule
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Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:15 pm

FlyPNS1 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

The problem is that north of, say, Saint Louis, the demand to the Panhandle drops off a cliff. I grew up in Chicago and knew literally no one who vacationed in the Panhandle.


That was definitely true 20 years ago, but certainly changing. This summer PNS has three flights a day to the Chicago area (on UA/AA/WN) and on some peak days (like Saturdays), the number jumps to five flights a day. G4 also seems to be finding a niche with some more northern markets with routes like OMA-VPS, DSM-VPS and GRR-VPS.

Obviously, I don't think DL wants most of this leisure traffic hence they just funnel people through ATL. It works for DL. The only catch is that DL does start to lose some of the business traffic to markets like PNS, when other carriers like AA offer routes like DCA-PNS nonstop and DL forces a connection through ATL.


Isn't Delta's bigger problem with business traffic in a place like PNS the fact that AA's network is so much better because AA has hubs to both the east and the west? It seems like if I were a business traveler in PNS I'd prefer AA because the travel time to places like DEN and LAX is so much lower.
 
TW870
Posts: 1390
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:50 pm

jplatts wrote:
MSP actually had stronger demand to the Florida Panhandle in Q1 2019 than DTW did.

Here were the PDEW's to PNS/VPS/ECP from MSP and DTW in Q1 2019:
MSP-PNS - 59
MSP-VPS - 41
MSP-ECP - 37

DTW-PNS - 39
DTW-VPS - 17
DTW-ECP - 22

MSP can likely support nonstop service to PNS on DL on a regional jet, an A220-100, or a 717 with the amount of demand that is there to PNS to MSP. DL would also have some connecting traffic in addition to O&D to support nonstop service to PNS from MSP.


Overall I think you and others are correct that the panhandle is a growth market for midwestern travelers, as VPS, PNS, and ECP are offering great new options for people who have gotten priced out of south Florida. I live in Minneapolis, and anecdotally know more people who go to Destin than further south. The issue, though, is that as the airline grows its operation, there are many uses for A220s, 717s, and large RJs. Given how close the panhandle is to Atlanta, and how efficient the Atlanta-panhandle operation is, I am skeptical that they would put any of those airplanes on a relatively long block time route like MSP-PNS when they could use those hours to beef up other business routes that could use more service. Remember, much of the LaGuardia business operation is still only about 2/3 of the size as it was in 2019. If those routes continue to recover like they are, I think you are going to see lots of A220 and CR9 block hours going onto LGA-Texas, LGA-midwest business markets, etc.
 
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tjwgrr
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Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:55 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
The problem is that north of, say, Saint Louis, the demand to the Panhandle drops off a cliff. I grew up in Chicago and knew literally no one who vacationed in the Panhandle.


Redneck Riviera.... I have some co-workers that drive with their families from Michigan to Gulf Shores every April. I guess they enjoy the 60 degree "tropical" weather. LOL.
 
ScottB
Posts: 7614
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:32 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Isn't Delta's bigger problem with business traffic in a place like PNS the fact that AA's network is so much better because AA has hubs to both the east and the west? It seems like if I were a business traveler in PNS I'd prefer AA because the travel time to places like DEN and LAX is so much lower.


I don't think that helps AA vs. DL as much as you think. The shortest PNS-DFW-DEN trip time is just a bit under five hours, and the shortest PNS-ATL-DEN option is 15 minutes longer. PNS-ATL has slightly better frequency and it's all mainline so you're likely to get a better, more reliable product. And a lot of business travel tends to stay within a given region; if you need to go from PNS to MEM or CHS, ATL is gonna be your best option.
 
EBiafore99
Posts: 164
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:03 pm

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:41 pm

Just because a market is experiencing passenger growth doesn't necessarily mean an airline should increase service. You have to look at the kind of growth in the market. In this case, the growth is leisure traffic. Furthermore, as stated, Allegiant has a focus city at VPS, which means low cost leisure traffic.

That's a combination that is tough for legacy airlines to compete with. I think DL has made it clear that its focus is on profitability over market share (albeit some exceptions). My guess is its flights to ATL serve customers who are willing to pay DL fares so the route is profitable.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4393
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:54 pm

ScottB wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Isn't Delta's bigger problem with business traffic in a place like PNS the fact that AA's network is so much better because AA has hubs to both the east and the west? It seems like if I were a business traveler in PNS I'd prefer AA because the travel time to places like DEN and LAX is so much lower.


I don't think that helps AA vs. DL as much as you think. The shortest PNS-DFW-DEN trip time is just a bit under five hours, and the shortest PNS-ATL-DEN option is 15 minutes longer. PNS-ATL has slightly better frequency and it's all mainline so you're likely to get a better, more reliable product. And a lot of business travel tends to stay within a given region; if you need to go from PNS to MEM or CHS, ATL is gonna be your best option.


It ends up being a matter of preference.
AA and DL have different philosophies on serving secondary SE cities. AA goes for breadth - using less frequent smaller aircraft but having service to several hubs while DL goes for depth - using large aircraft frequently but funneling everything through ATL.
 
jplatts
Posts: 5301
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:10 pm

EBiafore99 wrote:
That's a combination that is tough for legacy airlines to compete with. I think DL has made it clear that its focus is on profitability over market share (albeit some exceptions). My guess is its flights to ATL serve customers who are willing to pay DL fares so the route is profitable.


In addition to DL serving ATL nonstop from ATL, WN has recently added PNS-ATL nonstop service, but FL served ATL nonstop from PNS prior to the WN-FL merger.
 
ScottB
Posts: 7614
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:11 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
AA and DL have different philosophies on serving secondary SE cities. AA goes for breadth - using less frequent smaller aircraft but having service to several hubs while DL goes for depth - using large aircraft frequently but funneling everything through ATL.


That's just an artifact of how AA reached its present form where the largest hubs of the carriers which merged were DFW and CLT. DL ended up with a hub at MEM when it merged with NW but ultimately decided to close the hub, even though it offered somewhat less circuity when going west -- and of course they actually had a hub at DFW until the mid-aughts.

The ATL hub is large and strong enough that this strategy works very well for Delta -- there aren't a lot of city-pair markets they don't offer via ATL which AA can offer via either DFW or CLT (I'm thinking things like PNS-MAF). They gain a ton of efficiency by being able to operate mainline and the business customers benefit from the product consistency.
 
usflyer msp
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:30 pm

ScottB wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
AA and DL have different philosophies on serving secondary SE cities. AA goes for breadth - using less frequent smaller aircraft but having service to several hubs while DL goes for depth - using large aircraft frequently but funneling everything through ATL.


That's just an artifact of how AA reached its present form where the largest hubs of the carriers which merged were DFW and CLT. DL ended up with a hub at MEM when it merged with NW but ultimately decided to close the hub, even though it offered somewhat less circuity when going west -- and of course they actually had a hub at DFW until the mid-aughts.

The ATL hub is large and strong enough that this strategy works very well for Delta -- there aren't a lot of city-pair markets they don't offer via ATL which AA can offer via either DFW or CLT (I'm thinking things like PNS-MAF). They gain a ton of efficiency by being able to operate mainline and the business customers benefit from the product consistency.


I don't know if I would agree with this philosophy being an artifact of the merger. Many of these routes, like PHLPNS and DCAVPS were added well after the merger. I think it was a conscious business decision on AA's part - they could have just upgauged CLT flights.
 
ScottB
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Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:29 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Many of these routes, like PHLPNS and DCAVPS were added well after the merger. I think it was a conscious business decision on AA's part - they could have just upgauged CLT flights.


DCA-PNS was around before the merger, as was DCA-VPS. They might have dropped DCA-VPS for a while to show the "consequences" of being forced to give up slots at DCA as a merger condition, but it was a route that pre-dated the merger.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 790
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:42 pm

kavok wrote:
I agree with the earlier posters that the Panhandle just isn’t a big enough draw to the Upper Midwest for DL to justify nonstops to MSP/DTW. There isn’t much business travel, and the leisure travel that does exist is very low yielding (even for leisure), which is not the market DL is going for.

People in DTW/MSP who are willing to spend the money to fly to Florida are mostly not choosing the Pandhandle. The Panhandle is not reliably warm enough in Jan/Feb/Mar for a beach vacation, and hence DTW/MSP pax will head further south if they fly.

The summer tourism in the panhandle tends to be people within a day drive and the “beat the heat, go to the beach” traffic from the South and lower Midwest… and not so much from DTW/MSP whose locals tend to vacation elsewhere in the summer months. Point being, DL having a bunch of flights to ATL is probably the better option then a long/thin route to DTW/MSP for bottom barrel leisure fares. The rest can drive or take G4.


In 2019, the WSJ ran a good article discussing how the nation's travel surge (lead by Millennials and Gen Z) was causing people to seek out non-traditional destinations ... including places like Cleveland and Detroit. The Panhandle has long been a regional / Spring Break destination, but that's been changing in this era. Direct air service will nearly always yield significant gains between two markets. The Panhandle is a much cheaper place to visit than elsewhere in Florida -- no doubt the availability of service would attract local passengers from DTW, MSP, etc. That doesn't mean there's bigger opportunities for DL, NK, etc. But I wouldn't write such service off.
 
ATLgaUSA
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:58 am

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:09 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
The problem is that north of, say, Saint Louis, the demand to the Panhandle drops off a cliff. I grew up in Chicago and knew literally no one who vacationed in the Panhandle.


Redneck Riviera.... I have some co-workers that drive with their families from Michigan to Gulf Shores every April. I guess they enjoy the 60 degree "tropical" weather. LOL.

It's very rare for it to be 60 degrees in Gulf Shores in April.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15497
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:45 pm

ATLgaUSA wrote:
tjwgrr wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
The problem is that north of, say, Saint Louis, the demand to the Panhandle drops off a cliff. I grew up in Chicago and knew literally no one who vacationed in the Panhandle.


Redneck Riviera.... I have some co-workers that drive with their families from Michigan to Gulf Shores every April. I guess they enjoy the 60 degree "tropical" weather. LOL.

It's very rare for it to be 60 degrees in Gulf Shores in April.


You’re missing the point. The Panhandle is at a latitude where “beach weather” is not guaranteed outside of summer. That doesn’t make them bad beaches (I go to Amelia Island most years in March), but it does change the demand pattern.
 
ATLgaUSA
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:58 am

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:49 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
ATLgaUSA wrote:
tjwgrr wrote:

Redneck Riviera.... I have some co-workers that drive with their families from Michigan to Gulf Shores every April. I guess they enjoy the 60 degree "tropical" weather. LOL.

It's very rare for it to be 60 degrees in Gulf Shores in April.


You’re missing the point. The Panhandle is at a latitude where “beach weather” is not guaranteed outside of summer. That doesn’t make them bad beaches (I go to Amelia Island most years in March), but it does change the demand pattern.

No, I'm not missing the point. I was just replying to an uninformed comment. I'm well aware that the majority of the leisure traffic on the panhandle and Gulf Coast is highly seasonal.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 790
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Delta at PNS and VPS

Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:27 am

Cubsrule wrote:
The problem is that north of, say, Saint Louis, the demand to the Panhandle drops off a cliff. I grew up in Chicago and knew literally no one who vacationed in the Panhandle.


Wow, I'm surprised. In Metro Detroit, the Panhandle was a very popular "poor man's"*** spring break destination for mostly high school (and some college) students. There was oodles of charter busses, but Greyhound was arguably the most popular form of transit. Seasonal, weekly NK service would fit nicely.

The national popularity of Gulf Beach destinations has definitely increased in recent years. Biloxi has long been one of my favorite places to visit - a decade ago, most everybody visiting there was from Houston. Today, I frequently run into people from Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh, etc.

***before anybody gets offended, no vacation is inexpensive and the true "poor man's" spring break destination is the tanning booths at Planet Fitness.

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