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maps4ltd
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Re: Delta Returning to ORH, Will Fly to LGA

Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:05 am

Surprised Delta's going back into ORH before they return to MHT.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Delta Returning to ORH, Will Fly to LGA

Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:53 am

b777900 wrote:
What about ORH-MCO (disney)... that would be a great addition B6 did ORH-FLL it could work


Perhaps on the A220-300 when more are available. An A320 would be too big and an E190 too small.
 
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IceCream
Posts: 244
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Re: Delta Returning to ORH, Will Fly to LGA

Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:36 am

DLPMMM wrote:
For those who have not memorized every small airport in the USA, ORH is Worcester, Massachusetts.

Thank you! It's even harder (as a Canadian) to keep up with these US routes to places I've never heard of :rotfl:
 
tjerome
Posts: 376
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Re: Delta Returning to ORH, Will Fly to LGA

Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:08 am

ScottB wrote:
B752OS wrote:
Worcester is actually the second largest city in New England and has its own distinct metro area not part of Boston's metro.


Do you think people living in places like Milford, Westborough, or Southborough (all in Worcester County, thus in the Wormtown metro area) are commuting to Worcester or Boston and its surrounding communities?


I grew up in Westborough and it is about the same time to drive to BOS vs. driving to ORH.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Delta Returning to ORH, Will Fly to LGA

Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:15 am

RL757PVD wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
MIflyer12 wrote:
b777900 wrote:
What about ORH-MCO (disney)... that would be a great addition B6 did ORH-FLL it could work


ORH-LGA is a business O&D play (in a way DTW could not be). ORH-MCO would have to compete with BOS on fares, and without the frequency.


A business play with one frequency? This is political and the shortest stage length to do it to minimize costs.

Bingo…..
This is an inexpensive slot squat. When biz returns, it will be the first to go.
 
uconn99
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:52 pm

Re: Delta Returning to ORH, Will Fly to LGA

Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:39 am

The issue with ORH is you not only have BOS an hour and 15 minutes down the mass pike without traffic but you also have BDL and PVD within an hours drive. Depending on where you start the journey, BDL and PVD become great alternatives to BOS, both BDL and PVD is within the Worcester catchment area.

ORH is a very similar market to HVN, although very different when it comes to demographics, both have an issue with catchment area bleed into larger airports within an hour to 1.5 hours away,
 
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airportugal310
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Re: Delta Returning to ORH, Will Fly to LGA

Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:25 am

Milford guy here. Born/raised. Would rather go to BOS; Framingham Logan Express pretty much solves the issues for me. Still have to drive into Worcester and then the city streets to the airport negate any real advantages. Just a personal thing...different strokes for different folks.
 
11C
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Re: Delta Returning to ORH, Will Fly to LGA

Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:30 pm

DLPMMM wrote:
For those who have not memorized every small airport in the USA, ORH is Worcester, Massachusetts.


…or aren’t familiar with Google.
 
JFKCMILAXFLL
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Re: Delta Returning to ORH, Will Fly to LGA

Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:49 pm

DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:
For those who have not memorized every small airport in the USA, ORH is Worcester, Massachusetts.

Thank you… for some reason I was thinking it was Newport News/Williamsport…yikes!! Time to brush up


Newport News is actually PHF (Patrick Henry Field). Actually, an IATA code in that region which is similar to ORH is ORF (Norfolk).
 
airbazar
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Re: Delta Returning to ORH, Will Fly to LGA

Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:55 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
airbazar wrote:
ScottB wrote:

Getting to ORH is a mess, too. It's a 15 or 20 minute drive on Worcester city streets from I-290. The office parks at 495 and route 9 are half the distance from ORH compared to BOS -- but travel time to ORH is maybe 5 minutes faster.

You can get people to use ORH if it's cheap enough, but that's really not the business DL typically chases. And they're not going to waste 3 or 4 slot pairs at LGA (unless they need to slot-squat) to make LGA-ORH competitive with options like driving or Acela from Providence.


There are just no good options to get to NYC from Worcester area no matter how you slice it.
Driving is a minimum of 4.5 hours during rush hour. I've done it twice this year and we're supposed to be experiencing less commuters due to the Pandemic. Back in April I left NY at 4pm and 3 hours later I stopped to eat at the Five Guys in Stamford, CT. The idea that BOS is only 5 mins longer is equally dependent on time of day and traffic. Flying might just be the best option but not with this DL schedule.


THREE hours from NYC to Stamford! Details, please, that’s absurd.


I'm not sure what details you want. It was bumper to bumper for 3 hours up the Hutchinson River Pkwy and Rt.15. Maybe check google maps today around 5pm if you don't believe me and try to find any route that is not completely red. Anyone who thinks Worcester to NYC can be done in 2.5 hours during rush hour traffic, clearly has never done it.
My second trip this year in late June I chose to leave later in the day (after dinner) and spend the night. Run into all kinds of construction work and it took me just as long. There's really no easy way to travel by road between MA and NYC during the week. There's a reason why buses cost $10 and everything else costs $100.
 
bostrv
Posts: 52
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Re: Delta Returning to ORH (Worcester), Will Fly to LGA

Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:10 pm

Drove up that way last week, and spent 5 hours getting from NYC (Edison, NJ) to near Boston (Groton, MA) - Google was suggesting driving up to near Albany and driving down I90.
Was mentioning this to acquintances later, who said that has become an alternative since traffic is much better.
 
ScottB
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Re: Delta Returning to ORH, Will Fly to LGA

Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:20 pm

IceCream wrote:
Thank you! It's even harder (as a Canadian) to keep up with these US routes to places I've never heard of :rotfl:


Says the guy from the country where two of the largest airports are YYZ and YUL...

b777900 wrote:
Windsor Locks would be closer than BOS...


To Wormtown? Nuh uh. Maybe if there's an accident on the Pike. Even MHT is closer to Worcester than BDL.

uconn99 wrote:
The issue with ORH is you not only have BOS an hour and 15 minutes down the mass pike without traffic but you also have BDL and PVD within an hours drive.


BOS is nowhere near 75 minutes from Worcester without traffic. It could be if you take Route 9. The drive is 48 miles so even if you drive the speed limit (in Mass. LOL!) you'd be there in 45 minutes.
 
BitFly
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Re: Delta Returning to ORH (Worcester), Will Fly to LGA

Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:49 pm

Reading all the comments on this thread, I've noticed almost everyone mentioning the drive to BOS and ORH, I'm guilty of that too. Depending on where you are coming from and traffic, either airport can make sense.

One major thing being ignored is the convenience regarding ORH and TSA security check, which basically can't be compared to BOS. You can arrive at ORH just before the airplane's door closes it and still make the flight. There is no TSA lines, the terminal is small with only four gates, and you can see the plane from the security check point, parking is free at the moment.

Anyone living around Worcester County or visiting the area, to say that BOS is easier or similar to get to than ORH, is basically ignoring the convenience factor, along with the traffic, that is also not comparable to BOS. The way I see it, ORH is selling convenience and connecting flight opportunities to passengers, that instead of driving from Worcester County to BOS will be flying to NYC already being thru TSA check.

One thing for sure, is that ORH and Massport need to push for more flight frequency, if it really wants to be taken a little more seriously. Having several airport options in New England, can only help the area and not hurt.
 
ScottB
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Re: Delta Returning to ORH (Worcester), Will Fly to LGA

Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:24 pm

BitFly wrote:
One major thing being ignored is the convenience regarding ORH and TSA security check, which basically can't be compared to BOS. You can arrive at ORH just before the airplane's door closes it and still make the flight. There is no TSA lines, the terminal is small with only four gates, and you can see the plane from the security check point, parking is free at the moment.

Anyone living around Worcester County or visiting the area, to say that BOS is easier or similar to get to than ORH, is basically ignoring the convenience factor, along with the traffic, that is also not comparable to BOS. The way I see it, ORH is selling convenience and connecting flight opportunities to passengers, that instead of driving from Worcester County to BOS will be flying to NYC already being thru TSA check.


Parking at ORH is free at the moment. $7/day is still a bargain compared to BOS but it's the same price as Logan Express parking.

The real issue is that people are still going to avoid connections. I absolutely wouldn't take the risk of a single daily connection at LGA late in the day. If the flight from ORH is late and you miss your connection, you're probably stuck in NYC overnight. If you don't get on the plane (because it's running late), you're delayed a minimum of 24 hours. If your flight from XXX into LGA is late and you miss the hop to ORH (or LGA-ORH gets cancelled), what do you do? Rent a car to Worcester? Hope they'll put you on a flight to BOS and then take an expensive Uber or limo ride to the Woo? Wait overnight for the next afternoon's flight to ORH? Yuck. No, you take a non-stop to/from BOS or PVD or MHT or BDL.
 
F27500
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Re: Delta Returning to ORH (Worcester), Will Fly to LGA

Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:12 pm

Worcester is like that ugly friend .

The pretty girl (MASSPORT/Logan) makes the guy (the airline) who wants to date her find another guy to go out with the ugly friend (Worcester) if they wanna get anywhere.
 
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airportugal310
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Re: Delta Returning to ORH (Worcester), Will Fly to LGA

Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:39 pm

F27500 wrote:
Worcester is like that ugly friend .

The pretty girl (MASSPORT/Logan) makes the guy (the airline) who wants to date her find another guy to go out with the ugly friend (Worcester) if they wanna get anywhere.


A great analogy, if there was one!
 
ScottB
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Re: Delta Returning to ORH (Worcester), Will Fly to LGA

Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:51 pm

F27500 wrote:
Worcester is like that ugly friend.


The ugly friend who smokes and says Worcester like "Wuhstuh."
 
uconn99
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Re: Delta Returning to ORH, Will Fly to LGA

Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:07 pm

delete
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:23 am

DL has suspended a number of long haul routes and reduced frequencies for Winter 2021/2022. JFK-BRU, JFK-ATH gone (so much for the argument that ATH works year round....it doesn't, except for EK). DTW-FRA cut for a period of time. JFK-GRU won't operate in February, some ATL TATL routes also cut. PDX-AMS also cut for the winter. Cranky Flyer has the details.

The full list is:

DTW-FRA will not operate in December 2021.
ATL-MAD suspended for Winter 2021/2022.
MSP-LHR cut for the Winter.
JFK-ATH and JFK-BRU cut for the Winter.
PDX-AMS cut for the Winter.
JFK-LIS, JFK-TLV, and JFK-ZRH reduced frequencies for the Winter, and will not operate daily.
ATL-GIG cut for February 2022
JFK-GRU cut for February 2022
 
Blerg
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Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:04 am

But if New York-Athens works for EK in winter then it makes it a year-round destination. Or does this title applies only if a US carrier manages to operate a route?
 
OlympicATH
Posts: 291
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Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:35 am

This again...
ATH works year-round for EK on a 77W and OA and DL operated it year-round for decades (CO also did for 1-2 years).
We are still in a pandemic. Give it time.
AC is making YYZ-ATH and YUL-ATH year-round next winter so I highly doubt there is no room for a year-round JFK-ATH on DL at some point.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10208
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Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:34 am

ContinentalEWR wrote:
DL has suspended a number of long haul routes and reduced frequencies for Winter 2021/2022. JFK-BRU, JFK-ATH gone (so much for the argument that ATH works year round....it doesn't, except for EK). DTW-FRA cut for a period of time. JFK-GRU won't operate in February, some ATL TATL routes also cut. PDX-AMS also cut for the winter. Cranky Flyer has the details.

The full list is:

DTW-FRA will not operate in December 2021.
ATL-MAD suspended for Winter 2021/2022.
MSP-LHR cut for the Winter.
JFK-ATH and JFK-BRU cut for the Winter.
PDX-AMS cut for the Winter.
JFK-LIS, JFK-TLV, and JFK-ZRH reduced frequencies for the Winter, and will not operate daily.
ATL-GIG cut for February 2022
JFK-GRU cut for February 2022


Thanks for that detail. I'm surprised JFK-LIS is maintained when JFK-BRU is not. That's a lot of cuts - although it look like ATL-GIG returns less-than-weekly a few days before Carnival.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4920
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:19 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
DL has suspended a number of long haul routes and reduced frequencies for Winter 2021/2022. JFK-BRU, JFK-ATH gone (so much for the argument that ATH works year round....it doesn't, except for EK). DTW-FRA cut for a period of time. JFK-GRU won't operate in February, some ATL TATL routes also cut. PDX-AMS also cut for the winter. Cranky Flyer has the details.

The full list is:

DTW-FRA will not operate in December 2021.
ATL-MAD suspended for Winter 2021/2022.
MSP-LHR cut for the Winter.
JFK-ATH and JFK-BRU cut for the Winter.
PDX-AMS cut for the Winter.
JFK-LIS, JFK-TLV, and JFK-ZRH reduced frequencies for the Winter, and will not operate daily.
ATL-GIG cut for February 2022
JFK-GRU cut for February 2022


Thanks for that detail. I'm surprised JFK-LIS is maintained when JFK-BRU is not. That's a lot of cuts - although it look like ATL-GIG returns less-than-weekly a few days before Carnival.


Yeah, surprised to see LIS over BRU at all, as I thought LIS was seasonal only for DL before the pandemic.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:22 am

OlympicATH wrote:
This again...
ATH works year-round for EK on a 77W and OA and DL operated it year-round for decades (CO also did for 1-2 years).
We are still in a pandemic. Give it time.
AC is making YYZ-ATH and YUL-ATH year-round next winter so I highly doubt there is no room for a year-round JFK-ATH on DL at some point.


Next winter is a century away in the aviation industry and particularly given the current, pandemic induced operating environment. Also, DL did not operate JFK-ATH for decades year round. It did for a few years, and that's it. The market's not there for sustained year-round service. Maybe a few days a week, but that's it.
 
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b777900
Posts: 465
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Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:48 am

x1234 wrote:
So in Asia DL is the only US3 with wide-body service to MNL (there is UA service to GUM). I still think DL has a chance to make SEA-MNL work. Hell I think DL can make SEA-SIN work too. UA has said that in their Pacific network SIN consistently has the highest yield and pre-COVID was sold out on most days in J and Y. SIN is also the most westernized asian country.


Well sadly as we know now that is not rue, Stupid Delta keeps pulling out of ASIA we lost HKG, SIN.NRT,MNL all on Delta Metal, so now we have to fly Korean so sad.. Delta left and it hurts...
 
OlympicATH
Posts: 291
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2001 8:43 am

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:24 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
OlympicATH wrote:
This again...
ATH works year-round for EK on a 77W and OA and DL operated it year-round for decades (CO also did for 1-2 years).
We are still in a pandemic. Give it time.
AC is making YYZ-ATH and YUL-ATH year-round next winter so I highly doubt there is no room for a year-round JFK-ATH on DL at some point.


Next winter is a century away in the aviation industry and particularly given the current, pandemic induced operating environment. Also, DL did not operate JFK-ATH for decades year round. It did for a few years, and that's it. The market's not there for sustained year-round service. Maybe a few days a week, but that's it.


DL operated ATH year-round from 1991 (when they took over the PanAm transatlantic routes) until 2012 or so and that was alongside OA and TWA (for some time) who also flew the route year-round. That is over two decades.

Since then air travel has grown massively (look at ATH traffic as an example) so I struggle to believe the route wouldn't work in the 2020s.

I think we are basically saying the same thing. We are in the middle of a pandemic so the timing might not be right but there is potential for this to work when traffic levels recover. I also never said it had to be daily.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 695
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:20 pm

Does anyone know how long the Olympic - Delta codeshare lasted for? The codeshare definitely helped Delta with year - round service to Athens.

It is no surprise that they stopped year round service when Olympic merged with Aegean and the new company picked Star Alliance so Delta lost the codeshare. Also, the economic crisis back then didn't help either.
 
panamair
Posts: 4475
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:36 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
DL has suspended a number of long haul routes and reduced frequencies for Winter 2021/2022. JFK-BRU, JFK-ATH gone (so much for the argument that ATH works year round....it doesn't, except for EK). DTW-FRA cut for a period of time. JFK-GRU won't operate in February, some ATL TATL routes also cut. PDX-AMS also cut for the winter. Cranky Flyer has the details.

The full list is:

DTW-FRA will not operate in December 2021.
ATL-MAD suspended for Winter 2021/2022.
MSP-LHR cut for the Winter.
JFK-ATH and JFK-BRU cut for the Winter.
PDX-AMS cut for the Winter.
JFK-LIS, JFK-TLV, and JFK-ZRH reduced frequencies for the Winter, and will not operate daily.
ATL-GIG cut for February 2022
JFK-GRU cut for February 2022


A few more details:
- DTW-FRA restarts 19 Dec 2021
- JFK-ATH stops around 18 Nov 2021 and is currently scheduled to restart 8 March 2022; this is a bit different than the regular seasonal scheduling (would end 30 Oct 2021 and restart 26 March 2022).
- JFK-FRA, JFK-ZRH and ATL-MUC restarting 30 Oct 2021 so far: FRA is daily still, ZRH and MUC are 4x weekly
- JFK-LIS runs until early January 2022 just after the holiday season and resumes 7 March 2022 (it was year-round pre-Covid).
 
panamair
Posts: 4475
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:40 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
DL has suspended a number of long haul routes and reduced frequencies for Winter 2021/2022. JFK-BRU, JFK-ATH gone (so much for the argument that ATH works year round....it doesn't, except for EK). DTW-FRA cut for a period of time. JFK-GRU won't operate in February, some ATL TATL routes also cut. PDX-AMS also cut for the winter. Cranky Flyer has the details.

The full list is:

DTW-FRA will not operate in December 2021.
ATL-MAD suspended for Winter 2021/2022.
MSP-LHR cut for the Winter.
JFK-ATH and JFK-BRU cut for the Winter.
PDX-AMS cut for the Winter.
JFK-LIS, JFK-TLV, and JFK-ZRH reduced frequencies for the Winter, and will not operate daily.
ATL-GIG cut for February 2022
JFK-GRU cut for February 2022


Thanks for that detail. I'm surprised JFK-LIS is maintained when JFK-BRU is not. That's a lot of cuts - although it look like ATL-GIG returns less-than-weekly a few days before Carnival.


Yeah, surprised to see LIS over BRU at all, as I thought LIS was seasonal only for DL before the pandemic.


The difference is that BRU has not restarted at all since Covid whereas LIS did restart this summer so it’s easier to keep postponing BRU and keep LIS going. LIS was seasonal when they started it a few years ago but they made it year-round about two years ago.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4920
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:12 am

panamair wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
DL has suspended a number of long haul routes and reduced frequencies for Winter 2021/2022. JFK-BRU, JFK-ATH gone (so much for the argument that ATH works year round....it doesn't, except for EK). DTW-FRA cut for a period of time. JFK-GRU won't operate in February, some ATL TATL routes also cut. PDX-AMS also cut for the winter. Cranky Flyer has the details.

The full list is:

DTW-FRA will not operate in December 2021.
ATL-MAD suspended for Winter 2021/2022.
MSP-LHR cut for the Winter.
JFK-ATH and JFK-BRU cut for the Winter.
PDX-AMS cut for the Winter.
JFK-LIS, JFK-TLV, and JFK-ZRH reduced frequencies for the Winter, and will not operate daily.
ATL-GIG cut for February 2022
JFK-GRU cut for February 2022


A few more details:
- DTW-FRA restarts 19 Dec 2021
- JFK-ATH stops around 18 Nov 2021 and is currently scheduled to restart 8 March 2022; this is a bit different than the regular seasonal scheduling (would end 30 Oct 2021 and restart 26 March 2022).
- JFK-FRA, JFK-ZRH and ATL-MUC restarting 30 Oct 2021 so far: FRA is daily still, ZRH and MUC are 4x weekly
- JFK-LIS runs until early January 2022 just after the holiday season and resumes 7 March 2022 (it was year-round pre-Covid).


Thanks for these.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4920
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:22 am

Detroit313 wrote:
Does anyone know how long the Olympic - Delta codeshare lasted for? The codeshare definitely helped Delta with year - round service to Athens.

It is no surprise that they stopped year round service when Olympic merged with Aegean and the new company picked Star Alliance so Delta lost the codeshare. Also, the economic crisis back then didn't help either.


Yes, Delta and Olympic inked a deal in 2009 that was both a code-share and marketing agreement and announced in September 2009. The partnership was fairly limited, with just the JFK-ATH sector (operated by DL) and some points beyond on the US end. This was all around the time that Olympic Airways ceased to exist and was replaced by Olympic Air. Aegean announced in October 2012 it was acquiring Olympic Air. This was Aegean's second attempt and the EU approved it in October 2013.

I believe that any discussion to move Olympic Air into SkyTeam ended in 2010 as the Aegean and Olympic merger/acquisition talks began then. At the time of the first merger announcements, Aegean was in the process of becoming a full Star Alliance member. Aegean's path to Star Alliance membership continued with the airlines supposedly working in tandem toward a full transition of the merged carrier into the Star Alliance. So, Olympic never joined SkyTeam.

And yes, Greece's economic and debit crisis emerged from late 2009.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6679
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:58 am

b777900 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
So in Asia DL is the only US3 with wide-body service to MNL (there is UA service to GUM). I still think DL has a chance to make SEA-MNL work. Hell I think DL can make SEA-SIN work too. UA has said that in their Pacific network SIN consistently has the highest yield and pre-COVID was sold out on most days in J and Y. SIN is also the most westernized asian country.


Well sadly as we know now that is not rue, Stupid Delta keeps pulling out of ASIA we lost HKG, SIN.NRT,MNL all on Delta Metal, so now we have to fly Korean so sad.. Delta left and it hurts...


Delta is a business. I don’t like to see routes discontinued like that either, but they are in business to make money. They apparently didn’t think dropping those routes was “stupid”. They felt it was the correct decision for their business.
 
rjbesikof
Posts: 381
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:21 am

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:08 am

When do BOS/MSP-KEF end?
 
rjbesikof
Posts: 381
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:21 am

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:49 am

BTW, when does Delta usually announce its new routes for next summer?
 
NZ321
Posts: 1439
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:00 pm

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:04 pm

dcajet wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
....and another cut...

Widebody Flying by Fleet Type at ATL

Delta 47

A332 5
LOS 1
MSP 1
PHX 1
SLC 2

A333 13
AMS 1
BOS 1
CDG 1
CUN 1
DTW 2
FCO 1
FRA 1
GRU 1
HNL 1
LHR 1
SLC 2

A359 4
AMS 1
CDG 1
HND 1
ICN 1

B763 10
ANC 1
BOG 1
JFK 1
LAS 1
LIM 1
MCO 2
MSP 1
SAN 1
SCL 1

B764 15
DEN 2
LAS 3
LAX 1
PDX 2
SAN 2
SEA 1
SFO 1
SJU 3
Grand Total 47


EZE is missing from the list. Currently operated with 763.


How can HND or ICN be one aircraft? is it because they are 3x weekly? If daily service then requires more, surely... ?
 
SESGDL
Posts: 3049
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:26 pm

NZ321 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
....and another cut...

Widebody Flying by Fleet Type at ATL

Delta 47

A332 5
LOS 1
MSP 1
PHX 1
SLC 2

A333 13
AMS 1
BOS 1
CDG 1
CUN 1
DTW 2
FCO 1
FRA 1
GRU 1
HNL 1
LHR 1
SLC 2

A359 4
AMS 1
CDG 1
HND 1
ICN 1

B763 10
ANC 1
BOG 1
JFK 1
LAS 1
LIM 1
MCO 2
MSP 1
SAN 1
SCL 1

B764 15
DEN 2
LAS 3
LAX 1
PDX 2
SAN 2
SEA 1
SFO 1
SJU 3
Grand Total 47


EZE is missing from the list. Currently operated with 763.


How can HND or ICN be one aircraft? is it because they are 3x weekly? If daily service then requires more, surely... ?


His summary was clearly the number of daily flights with each type to each destination, not number of aircraft required to operate them.

Jeremy
 
NZ321
Posts: 1439
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:00 pm

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:46 pm

"Widebody Flying by Fleet Type" doesn't quite clarify that does it? In many threads the answer would be different. So "clearly" as you say, is actually, not so clear. :) But glad to be more informed nonetheless; many thanks indeed.
 
LAXffDUB
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:05 pm

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:21 pm

Noticed today's #40 (SYD/LAX) is delayed by 9 hours. And it has happened several times this summer as well despite the inbound flight being on time. Is there some sort of ongoing problem with SYD airport operations?
 
AC4500
Posts: 776
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:45 pm

b777900 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
So in Asia DL is the only US3 with wide-body service to MNL (there is UA service to GUM). I still think DL has a chance to make SEA-MNL work. Hell I think DL can make SEA-SIN work too. UA has said that in their Pacific network SIN consistently has the highest yield and pre-COVID was sold out on most days in J and Y. SIN is also the most westernized asian country.


Well sadly as we know now that is not rue, Stupid Delta keeps pulling out of ASIA we lost HKG, SIN.NRT,MNL all on Delta Metal, so now we have to fly Korean so sad.. Delta left and it hurts...

"Stupid Delta"... Alright then. :roll:
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6411
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:11 pm

Looks like some capacity pulldowns for Oct/Nov are in store for this weekend based on the Delta cargo schedules...
 
ibthebigd
Posts: 458
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:12 pm

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:15 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Looks like some capacity pulldowns for Oct/Nov are in store for this weekend based on the Delta cargo schedules...
Thanks for the heads up I'll be checking constantly to see if my

CVG-SLC-SAN-ATL-CVG for Thanksgiving is affected

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
TW870
Posts: 1372
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:07 pm

OlympicATH wrote:

DL operated ATH year-round from 1991 (when they took over the PanAm transatlantic routes) until 2012 or so and that was alongside OA and TWA (for some time) who also flew the route year-round. That is over two decades.

Since then air travel has grown massively (look at ATH traffic as an example) so I struggle to believe the route wouldn't work in the 2020s.


The answer is because the industry is far more mature than it was in the 1980s, and the airlines are able to use their assets in ways that make more money and satisfy more demand than they used to satisfy with winter US-Athens routes. Yes, you are very correct that TWA for many years flew JFK-ATH year round, usually with a 747. But at least half the time, those airplanes were completely empty. TWA got into a big fight with its flight attendants in the mid-1970s because they wanted to hire a seasonal flight attendant workforce. While many Europe and Mediterranean routes operated year round, they were so empty in the winter that they only needed an FAA minimum flight attendant crew of 9 on a 747. But they were packed in the summer, requiring a much larger crew. Winter flights were so regularly empty that TW wanted to hire a small permanent flight attendant workforce, and then have a second population of seasonal workers to cover the months in which the planes actually had passengers onboard. The union shut that down, and TWA instead solved the imbalance by reducing block hours, shifting flight attendants into domestic flying, and focusing vacation time in the winter.

Today, airlines can use the winter for aircraft maintenance, crew vacation, and (during non-Covid times) to serve the busier north-south routes such as US-Brazil, Argentina, Australia, etc. There is absolutely business travel year round to ATH from the US, and yes there is much more than there was in the 1980s, but there not enough to pay for those widebody block hours at the rate of return they can capture today.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4920
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:22 pm

TW870 wrote:
OlympicATH wrote:

DL operated ATH year-round from 1991 (when they took over the PanAm transatlantic routes) until 2012 or so and that was alongside OA and TWA (for some time) who also flew the route year-round. That is over two decades.

Since then air travel has grown massively (look at ATH traffic as an example) so I struggle to believe the route wouldn't work in the 2020s.


The answer is because the industry is far more mature than it was in the 1980s, and the airlines are able to use their assets in ways that make more money and satisfy more demand than they used to satisfy with winter US-Athens routes. Yes, you are very correct that TWA for many years flew JFK-ATH year round, usually with a 747. But at least half the time, those airplanes were completely empty. TWA got into a big fight with its flight attendants in the mid-1970s because they wanted to hire a seasonal flight attendant workforce. While many Europe and Mediterranean routes operated year round, they were so empty in the winter that they only needed an FAA minimum flight attendant crew of 9 on a 747. But they were packed in the summer, requiring a much larger crew. Winter flights were so regularly empty that TW wanted to hire a small permanent flight attendant workforce, and then have a second population of seasonal workers to cover the months in which the planes actually had passengers onboard. The union shut that down, and TWA instead solved the imbalance by reducing block hours, shifting flight attendants into domestic flying, and focusing vacation time in the winter.

Today, airlines can use the winter for aircraft maintenance, crew vacation, and (during non-Covid times) to serve the busier north-south routes such as US-Brazil, Argentina, Australia, etc. There is absolutely business travel year round to ATH from the US, and yes there is much more than there was in the 1980s, but there not enough to pay for those widebody block hours at the rate of return they can capture today.


That is a great analysis. TWA pulled out permanently from Athens in 1997. It flew 747s that at 339 seats, in winter and off-peak broadly, flew empty. Olympic presumably limbered on for years on state sponsored subsidies as I believe it was a government owned entity. DL ended year-round Athens service well into the Greek Financial Crisis and had earlier this year, announced it would fly JFK-ATH year round, but has now reversed that decision.

The size and scope of business/corporate travel demand to Greece was very different pre-pandemic than it was in the 1980s and 1990s, but it remains a small market and skews overwhelmingly VFR in the winter time. There is virtually no substantive tourism from November to March. In Spring/Summer and early Fall, tourism demand booms.

There is plenty of wide body slack across the fleets of the US3, and many large planes still parked. In normal times, seasonal demand shifts would, as TWA870 correctly points out, result in moving capacity to markets that see increased demand in winter months. We're in an unpredictable time thanks to the pandemic. Demand is already slowing down reflected in guidance from Southwest and American Airlines in the US, and other moves, like UA shifting from 763s to 752s on its small contigent of JFK-LAX/SFO flights. Greece is most definitely not a market that will assure profitability, let alone break-even, even it 3-4 a week, in the November-March time frame, from the US, right now for a US carrier. In the future, maybe.
 
x1234
Posts: 1187
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:30 pm

How is DL's payload on JNB-ATL on the A359?
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 751
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:42 pm

x1234 wrote:
How is DL's payload on JNB-ATL on the A359?


The flights are operating with very light loads, which is consistent with the rest of the long-haul network sans a few flights to/from touristy places in Europe... I'm still baffled that this surprises this forum
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3511
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:16 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
The flights are operating with very light loads, which is consistent with the rest of the long-haul network sans a few flights to/from touristy places in Europe... I'm still baffled that this surprises this forum


Unfortunately, so many people are living in parts of the country where things are back to normal and they are baffled by any restrictions. I think there is also a narrative that airlines are filling planes (but its really domestic). People just fundamentally don't understand what is actually happening - particularly for longhaul routes.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6411
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:30 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
The flights are operating with very light loads, which is consistent with the rest of the long-haul network sans a few flights to/from touristy places in Europe... I'm still baffled that this surprises this forum


Unfortunately, so many people are living in parts of the country where things are back to normal and they are baffled by any restrictions. I think there is also a narrative that airlines are filling planes (but its really domestic). People just fundamentally don't understand what is actually happening - particularly for longhaul routes.


"Very light" is relative, TPAC loads are way down, TATL is not down nearly as much. UA's TATL load factor over the past few months was ~70%. Domestic and Latin America is at or above 2019 loads.

Image

https://www.airlines.org/dataset/impact ... -updates/#
https://simpleflying.com/united-airlines-2022-europe/
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 751
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:55 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
The flights are operating with very light loads, which is consistent with the rest of the long-haul network sans a few flights to/from touristy places in Europe... I'm still baffled that this surprises this forum


Unfortunately, so many people are living in parts of the country where things are back to normal and they are baffled by any restrictions. I think there is also a narrative that airlines are filling planes (but its really domestic). People just fundamentally don't understand what is actually happening - particularly for longhaul routes.


"Very light" is relative, TPAC loads are way down, TATL is not down nearly as much. UA's TATL load factor over the past few months was ~70%. Domestic and Latin America is at or above 2019 loads.

Image

https://www.airlines.org/dataset/impact ... -updates/#
https://simpleflying.com/united-airlines-2022-europe/


No, it isn't relative. I was very explicit that long-haul loads were very light, sans a few flights to/from touristy places in Europe. Unsurprisingly, these touristy places represent the bulk of long-haul capacity at the moment, so when you lump their data together, it's incredibly misleading. DL can fill up planes headed to touristy places like FCO, MAD, CDG, AMS but not LHR, FRA, JNB, etc. Of course, DL's fortunate that much of its Atlantic capacity is headed to CDG & AMS.

jbs2886 wrote:
Unfortunately, so many people are living in parts of the country where things are back to normal and they are baffled by any restrictions. I think there is also a narrative that airlines are filling planes (but its really domestic). People just fundamentally don't understand what is actually happening - particularly for longhaul routes.


I agree completely, but regular readers of these forums should be aware of the multitudes of restrictions that exist globally, as well as the downturn in business class traffic. I'd love to see DL add and expand service, too, but I recognize that if DL can't come close to filling up any Pacific route, we're not likely to see additional service return anytime soon let alone see DL launch SEA-KUL.
 
n9801f
Posts: 475
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:07 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
"Very light" is relative, TPAC loads are way down, TATL is not down nearly as much. UA's TATL load factor over the past few months was ~70%. Domestic and Latin America is at or above 2019 loads.

Honestly, in this context load factor tells you very little of the story.

Long haul flights are down hugely vs. 2019.

So LF just tells you that the few flights that operated weren't empty.

Also the yield component is down in most markets due to very limited business travel.

The combination of reduced flights and depressed business travel will likely add up to a big revenue decrease vs. 2019. Especially in long haul. To a lesser extent in domestic.

We'll get a clearer picture when 3Q earnings come out. But given the Delta variant's impact, I doubt it will be a very pretty picture.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6411
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Delta Network Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:15 pm

n9801f wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
"Very light" is relative, TPAC loads are way down, TATL is not down nearly as much. UA's TATL load factor over the past few months was ~70%. Domestic and Latin America is at or above 2019 loads.

Honestly, in this context load factor tells you very little of the story.

Long haul flights are down hugely vs. 2019.

So LF just tells you that the few flights that operated weren't empty.

Also the yield component is down in most markets due to very limited business travel.

The combination of reduced flights and depressed business travel will likely add up to a big revenue decrease vs. 2019. Especially in long haul. To a lesser extent in domestic.

We'll get a clearer picture when 3Q earnings come out. But given the Delta variant's impact, I doubt it will be a very pretty picture.


I don't disagree, but the poster was discussing loads. Not profitability or revenue.

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Unfortunately, so many people are living in parts of the country where things are back to normal and they are baffled by any restrictions. I think there is also a narrative that airlines are filling planes (but its really domestic). People just fundamentally don't understand what is actually happening - particularly for longhaul routes.


"Very light" is relative, TPAC loads are way down, TATL is not down nearly as much. UA's TATL load factor over the past few months was ~70%. Domestic and Latin America is at or above 2019 loads.

Image

https://www.airlines.org/dataset/impact ... -updates/#
https://simpleflying.com/united-airlines-2022-europe/


No, it isn't relative. I was very explicit that long-haul loads were very light, sans a few flights to/from touristy places in Europe. Unsurprisingly, these touristy places represent the bulk of long-haul capacity at the moment, so when you lump their data together, it's incredibly misleading. DL can fill up planes headed to touristy places like FCO, MAD, CDG, AMS but not LHR, FRA, JNB, etc. Of course, DL's fortunate that much of its Atlantic capacity is headed to CDG & AMS.


If you have Load Factor by destination please share, otherwise it is conjecture (however true it might be), and it should not be asserted as fact, as the mods have stated multiple times in recent days.

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