gloom wrote:

xwb565 wrote:

Purely speculative but does Airbus want a closer look to see if there is a systemic problem?

Unlikely. Since there were reports the problem is a repair derivative, I'd say hardly any reason to believe Lufthansa is coming for structure integrity chech. Plus, if Airbus wanted to check for a systemic problem, there are plenty of frames that could be taken offline, with much more hours than Lufthansa's, including many QR frames that would be doing similar profiles/flights and maintenance. IMHO chances for anything else than repaint (and some sort of check, perhaps, done by manufacturer, but planned otherwise) are slim to none.

Cheers,
Adam

LHT would be the place for any run of the mill work. There does appear to be something afoot here. Either Airbus wants a precautionary look or there are findings from the QR frame. It would be good if there was further clarity from Airbus before unfounded rumours causes another stock dip.

flipdewaf wrote:

xwb565 wrote:

Another early a350 has headed back to TLS for its scheduled repaint (LH #1). Purely speculative but does Airbus want a closer look to see if there is a systemic problem?

Would/Could unexpected cracks in paint be indicative of anything else? More movement (strain) than expected in a given area?

Fred

They were very clear that there is no structural issue so I assume that includes unusual loads etc.

xwb565 wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:

xwb565 wrote:

Another early a350 has headed back to TLS for its scheduled repaint (LH #1). Purely speculative but does Airbus want a closer look to see if there is a systemic problem?

Would/Could unexpected cracks in paint be indicative of anything else? More movement (strain) than expected in a given area?

Fred

They were very clear that there is no structural issue so I assume that includes unusual loads etc.

They were clear that the cracks were not structural but rather in the surface paint coating. Now whether those cracks were the result of an improper repair, improper application of paint, or another issue putting unexpected strain on the surface/paint of the aircraft Airbus never said. It is assumed that the cracks were the result of repairs made to the frame but Airbus never confirmed that.

Airbus have a load of media people available over email.
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/media-r ... tacts.html
Perhaps someone can ask and get a reply. I am unable to access my personal email.

Cracks on honeycomb Sandwich structures are not an option.
On monolithic areas, on some tertiary structural parts stop drills can be done.
These 'Cracks' are blown out of proportion by media and some armchair experts. Let Airbus and QR deal with it.

DAIXA got painted in 3 weeks and went back to Munich. The issue with the QR bird is perhaps isolated and has no larger implications.

Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... aunch-777x

Qatar Airways Chief Executive Officer Akbar Al Baker threatened to stop taking deliveries of Airbus SE jets this year because of an unspecified “serious” disagreement, a warning that could hamper the planemaker’s recovery plans.

“If we are not able to settle that serious issue we have with them, we will refuse to take any aircraft from them,” the CEO said in an interview with Bloomberg TV. Falling out with Qatar Airways, Al Baker warned, will cause Airbus “a stress in the relationship with IAG, with LatAm, with other airlines in which we have a shareholding.”

The subject of the spat? “I unfortunately cannot tell you what that issue is,” Al Baker said.

With, according to Wikipedia, 63 Airbus aircraft on order. One has to wonder what the issue is be it flexibility, financing, or something else. Its going to be interesting to see what AAB decides to do if he does not get his way.

The issues are 1) international business travel is in the tank due to Covid hangover, and 2) it may never return. He's looking for a way to slow down deliveries.

Fluff.

This guy loves to throw his toys out the pram. Wasn't one of his disputes before about carpet?

SteelChair wrote:

The issues are 1) international business travel is in the tank due to Covid hangover, and 2) it may never return. He's looking for a way to slow down deliveries.

Fluff.

3) he is not competing against a lot of 77E, A34x and Jumbo jets anymore, but airlines flying non-stop with aircraft just as economic as his, making stop overs fairly unattractive unless the best route is nearby anyways.

best regards
Thomas

seansasLCY wrote:

This guy loves to throw his toys out the pram. Wasn't one of his disputes before about carpet?

And I think everybody is gettering rather tired of it... time he learned to sing a different song!

They certainly seem to have suspended progress on their A350s.

What could it be about?Maybe A380 related somehow? Or does he want to cancel something on firm order for some reason? Threatening this might affect his entire investments and fleets sounds bigger than just some emotional moment.

seansasLCY wrote:

This guy loves to throw his toys out the pram. Wasn't one of his disputes before about carpet?

The carpet thing is an A.net meme and it is time to be put to rest to make way for proper discussion:

Airbus said Qatar's A380 had been delayed as the airline had been very "demanding" in its specifications. The carrier found fault in the texturing of the paint, the interior cabin decor foils, which are similar to wallpaper, and the jet's non-textile floors, which are prevalent in the galley area. Those large galley structures now have to be removed to lay new flooring in a time-consuming process.

"It's a bit of a job because it has to be done carefully," said Tom Williams, executive vice president of programs at Airbus.

The galley floor alignment and sealing is very important due to issues of corrosion and its necessary to remove the galleys to fix. Galley floors and carpets are not the same thing.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/qatar-airways-chief-executive-falls-out-with-airbus-boeing-at-farnborough-1405358331

Insertnamehere wrote:

Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... aunch-777x

Qatar Airways Chief Executive Officer Akbar Al Baker threatened to stop taking deliveries of Airbus SE jets this year because of an unspecified “serious” disagreement, a warning that could hamper the planemaker’s recovery plans.

“If we are not able to settle that serious issue we have with them, we will refuse to take any aircraft from them,” the CEO said in an interview with Bloomberg TV. Falling out with Qatar Airways, Al Baker warned, will cause Airbus “a stress in the relationship with IAG, with LatAm, with other airlines in which we have a shareholding.”

The subject of the spat? “I unfortunately cannot tell you what that issue is,” Al Baker said.

With, according to Wikipedia, 63 Airbus aircraft on order. One has to wonder what the issue is be it flexibility, financing, or something else. Its going to be interesting to see what AAB decides to do if he does not get his way.

Gotta love this kind of corporate negotiation tactic, makes a very public stink about a situation to the press, but won't provide any details or context at all, just to put Airbus on the spot publicly

SteelChair wrote:

The issues are 1) international business travel is in the tank due to Covid hangover, and 2) it may never return. He's looking for a way to slow down deliveries.

Fluff.

Not just international business travel in general. While Europe and the US are vaccinated to a large degree and are slowly starting to ease their restrictions, many Asian countries are still struggling. China still has a general entry ban. Japan has vaccinated only 2.6% of their population. Australia and NZ are similar. India has become a major COVID hotspot.

With QR's market being primarily connecting traffic from south Asia and Australia to Europe and the US, they'll be hit harder compared to EU or US airlines. Those can serve TATL markets starting again this summer and also offer nonstop flights to the few other countries without entry restrictions.

But apparently not worse than contracting Airbus to repaint some of his 777s in Toulouse...

Isn't it actually 73 Airbus aircraft he has on order, not 63? 50x A321s and 23x A350s?

tommy1808 wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

The issues are 1) international business travel is in the tank due to Covid hangover, and 2) it may never return. He's looking for a way to slow down deliveries.

Fluff.

3) he is not competing against a lot of 77E, A34x and Jumbo jets anymore, but airlines flying non-stop with aircraft just as economic as his, making stop overs fairly unattractive unless the best route is nearby anyways.

best regards
Thomas

But is that really the case? Because looking at upcoming deliveries, the next big thing they are getting from Airbus are the 50x A321neo/A321LR. Those are incredibly useful to counter the new 787s and A350s flown directly by his competitors. The first was scheduled to be delivered by this year, but seems to have been pushed into 2022 now?

They already took most of the A350 order, do we really think the remaining of those are the issue here? We know he made a fuss about the A320neo a few years back and cancelled/converted the entire order after the first aircraft had already been painted. Alternatively, does he want Airbus to take back the A380s? Is Airbus floating the A350neo or A350F again and he is throwing a fit because he wants to convert outstanding orders/trade in A380s for those?

Sometimes I just wish Boeing and Airbus will just tell STC and AAB to shove their opinions/criticism/foul mouth up to where sun don't shine.

Much like STC at EK. This is standard business practice for these guys. You can almost feel the collective eye roll in Toulouse.

Did MOL, STC and AAB play a round of golf together last month?

Well, A7-ALL is still In Toulouse almost 5 months later for "cosmetic only" issue. Wonder it has anything to do with that?

This appears to be about paint quality...
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/disp ... 58694.html

ElroyJetson wrote:

Much like STC at EK. This is standard business practice for these guys. You can almost feel the collective eye roll in Toulouse.

At least STC is complaining about aircraft delays and Boeing is at fault there.
AAB is complaining without giving any details as to what issue he has with Airbus

I heard that Airbus now wants to "force" delivery of planes that were defered in the pandemic, starting with those (outstanding) deliveries of planes that were sold at "very good prices". Maybe this is the issue?

DTWLAX wrote:

This appears to be about paint quality...
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/disp ... 58694.html

On one hand, having worked closely with Toulouse, I can definitely believe that. On the other hand, the episode with the cracked A350 demonstrated that the paint definitely isn't of a bad quality, and just last week a Qatar 777 arrived in Toulouse to be repainted at the same facility that does the A350s...

DTWLAX wrote:

ElroyJetson wrote:

Much like STC at EK. This is standard business practice for these guys. You can almost feel the collective eye roll in Toulouse.

At least STC is complaining about aircraft delays and Boeing is at fault there.
AAB is complaining without giving any details as to what issue he has with Airbus

Sure. EK has dozens of widebodies parked in the desert and STC and EK are upset about a delay in accepting 115 more wide bodies? Somehow I find that hard to believe.

Quality control issues are plaguing the industry. It appears that no one is immune, although the information becoming public is inconsistent

DTWLAX wrote:

This appears to be about paint quality...
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/disp ... 58694.html

The source for this is Reuters, who has a pretty good track record on aviation reporting.

The article discusses the whole theory that this is a ruse to defer deliveries, but doesn't reach a conclusion that this is what is happening here.

There are industry standards for coatings - paint, to you and me. A paint job doesn't need to be perfect - it needs to be to industry standards.

Insertnamehere wrote:

Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... aunch-777x

The subject of the spat? “I unfortunately cannot tell you what that issue is,” Al Baker said.

That suggests to me his lawyers have told him he really doesn't have much of a case in the relevant jurisdiction. Thus, IMHO, this is perhaps just a delaying tactic.

SteelChair wrote:

The issues are 1) international business travel is in the tank due to Covid hangover, and 2) it may never return. He's looking for a way to slow down deliveries.

Fluff.

Agreed. This happened with carpet before and now paint. While obviously just my opinion, I believe AAB is going to find everything wrong they can to refuse delivery.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

The issues are 1) international business travel is in the tank due to Covid hangover, and 2) it may never return. He's looking for a way to slow down deliveries.

Agreed. This happened with carpet before and now paint. While obviously just my opinion, I believe AAB is going to find everything wrong they can to refuse delivery.

Please read #8 above, it wasn't carpet before.

Revelation wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

The issues are 1) international business travel is in the tank due to Covid hangover, and 2) it may never return. He's looking for a way to slow down deliveries.

Agreed. This happened with carpet before and now paint. While obviously just my opinion, I believe AAB is going to find everything wrong they can to refuse delivery.

Please read #8 above, it wasn't carpet before.

Carpet, flooring: same difference. Unless it's an actual technical problem, it's just delaying deliveries under the disguise of nit-picking.

WayexTDI wrote:

Revelation wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

Agreed. This happened with carpet before and now paint. While obviously just my opinion, I believe AAB is going to find everything wrong they can to refuse delivery.

Please read #8 above, it wasn't carpet before.

Carpet, flooring: same difference. Unless it's an actual technical problem, it's just delaying deliveries under the disguise of nit-picking.

Exactly. And a bad disguise if I ever saw one.

Further, not sure what AAB thinks his brilliant tactics will achieve. Somehow I doubt Boeing is willing to cut prices too heavily for someone who has just publicly said he won't buy from the only relevant competitor.

Pretty sure Boeing and Airbus know how not to be played against each other.

WayexTDI wrote:

Revelation wrote:

lightsaber wrote:

Agreed. This happened with carpet before and now paint. While obviously just my opinion, I believe AAB is going to find everything wrong they can to refuse delivery.

Please read #8 above, it wasn't carpet before.

Carpet, flooring: same difference. Unless it's an actual technical problem, it's just delaying deliveries under the disguise of nit-picking.

Tiles that let spills, drips or leaks from the galley seep into the underlying floor is an actual technical problem.

CRJockey wrote:

WayexTDI wrote:

Revelation wrote:

Please read #8 above, it wasn't carpet before.

Carpet, flooring: same difference. Unless it's an actual technical problem, it's just delaying deliveries under the disguise of nit-picking.

Exactly. And a bad disguise if I ever saw one.

Further, not sure what AAB thinks his brilliant tactics will achieve. Somehow I doubt Boeing is willing to cut prices too heavily for someone who has just publicly said he won't buy from the only relevant competitor.

Pretty sure Boeing and Airbus know how not to be played against each other.

But still AAB ran Qatar Airways very sucessful during the last almost 25 years.

Revelation wrote:

WayexTDI wrote:

Revelation wrote:

Please read #8 above, it wasn't carpet before.

Carpet, flooring: same difference. Unless it's an actual technical problem, it's just delaying deliveries under the disguise of nit-picking.

Tiles that let spills, drips or leaks from the galley seep into the underlying floor is an actual technical problem.

I thought that phrase came about because it shows the propensity to nitpick any issue which has the effect of a delivery delay. Not that some problems aren’t real or that sub standard aircraft should be accepted

“If we are not able to settle that serious issue we have with them, we will refuse to take any aircraft from them,” the CEO said in an interview with Bloomberg TV. Falling out with Qatar Airways, Al Baker warned, will cause Airbus “a stress in the relationship with IAG, with LatAm, with other airlines in which we have a shareholding.”

Really?

Revelation wrote:

WayexTDI wrote:

Revelation wrote:

Please read #8 above, it wasn't carpet before.

Carpet, flooring: same difference. Unless it's an actual technical problem, it's just delaying deliveries under the disguise of nit-picking.

Tiles that let spills, drips or leaks from the galley seep into the underlying floor is an actual technical problem.

Yep. And I have yet to see an aircraft, 80s gen or state of the art, where whatever amount of "proper" carpet/floor/whatever installation have led to waterproof insulation and 100% floor protection.

It is a disguise, no matter what.

DLHAM wrote:

CRJockey wrote:

WayexTDI wrote:

Carpet, flooring: same difference. Unless it's an actual technical problem, it's just delaying deliveries under the disguise of nit-picking.

Exactly. And a bad disguise if I ever saw one.

Further, not sure what AAB thinks his brilliant tactics will achieve. Somehow I doubt Boeing is willing to cut prices too heavily for someone who has just publicly said he won't buy from the only relevant competitor.

Pretty sure Boeing and Airbus know how not to be played against each other.

But still AAB ran Qatar Airways very sucessful during the last almost 25 years.

Based on what metric has Qatar been successful? And what makes us believe, that any other capable manager would not have done better on financial performance metrics without being annoying as a hungry suckling in the middle of the night?

CRJockey wrote:

Revelation wrote:

WayexTDI wrote:

Carpet, flooring: same difference. Unless it's an actual technical problem, it's just delaying deliveries under the disguise of nit-picking.

Tiles that let spills, drips or leaks from the galley seep into the underlying floor is an actual technical problem.

Yep. And I have yet to see an aircraft, 80s gen or state of the art, where whatever amount of "proper" carpet/floor/whatever installation have led to waterproof insulation and 100% floor protection.

It is a disguise, no matter what.

Not going by the intentions, but addressing the no 100% floor protection. So I guess there is absolutely no point in any of the waterproofing thats done in the galleys and lavatories? since it isn’t 100% proof. What about fire suppression systems on aircraft, they haven’t had a 100% record in saving aircraft from fires, why bother with them. What about all the safety measures on ramps, even with all the training and SOPs there are still incidents. What is the point in any aircraft acceptance and delivery process? maybe the manufacturers should do away with that too since nothing is 100% and since they always build things perfectly with no snags.

If it's product quality, contracts include clauses covering mediation / arbitration processes for settling disputes if OEM and customer can't agree, and if all fails, there is a 5% retention on the air frame plus engine (higher in some cases) withheld at delivery.

This has got to be more to do with price. Or perhaps QR wants an EK-style buyback on their A380's, since they have featured in recent comments?

Pelly wrote:

CRJockey wrote:

Revelation wrote:

Tiles that let spills, drips or leaks from the galley seep into the underlying floor is an actual technical problem.

Yep. And I have yet to see an aircraft, 80s gen or state of the art, where whatever amount of "proper" carpet/floor/whatever installation have led to waterproof insulation and 100% floor protection.

It is a disguise, no matter what.

Not going by the intentions, but addressing the no 100% floor protection. So I guess there is absolutely no point in any of the waterproofing thats done in the galleys and lavatories? since it isn’t 100% proof. What about fire suppression systems on aircraft, they haven’t had a 100% record in saving aircraft from fires, why bother with them. What about all the safety measures on ramps, even with all the training and SOPs there are still incidents. What is the point in any aircraft acceptance and delivery process? maybe the manufacturers should do away with that too since nothing is 100% and since they always build things perfectly with no snags.

Hey, thanks for sharing your intellectual capacity. And yes, of course, what you brilliantly put in my mouth is exactly what I wanted to say but couldn’t express.

Thanks much for your contribution, Pelly.

If AAB refuses Airbus aircraft, he must also ask himself what the Airbus owners will or could do against him? Even if he cancels orders from Airbus, what if the EU removes overflight rights ? EK would say thank you my dear for to be stupid ! If he has financial problems, please be honest

CRJockey wrote:

Hey, thanks for sharing your intellectual capacity. And yes, of course, what you brilliantly put in my mouth is exactly what I wanted to say but couldn’t express.

Thanks much for your contribution, Pelly.

You are welcome sir.


Going back to the topic.

Now if we go by the assumption of some here that QR is posturing and that there are no quality issues.

1. Assuming QR doesn’t want the aircraft so soon. Having had the 3 years of airspace closures and losing key markets, followed by a pandemic. Wouldn’t it be AAB’s responsibility towards his board to look at every available means to renegotiate and restructure CAPEX that was planned before these events? Shouldn’t he use all available contractual avenues? The pandemic has caused a lot of contracts and agreements to be re-negotiated in this industry. If it is much more of a buyers market now and pricing is improving, shouldn’t he look at how to take advantage of that? Airbus and Boeing themselves are always looking for the best deals from their suppliers.

2. Assuming there are no real quality issues, wouldn’t this issue just resolve through the normal contractual process as Smartplane said? Both Airbus and QR are protected by the contract, is it really news worthy at this stage?

3. Assuming that the issue is none of the above but the ‘whining’ and being “annoying as a hungry suckling in the middle of the night” and people being tired of AAB’s ‘antics’ then maybe people shouldn’t post articles about it on A.net, and shouldn’t bother themselves with opening the thread and responding to it. It is quite easy to skip over annoying topics. This latest comment from AAB was a response to a question from a Bloomberg journalist asking if QR will accept deliveries from Airbus and Boeing this year, its at around the 3 minute mark of an 8 minute interview and lasts for about 30 seconds which in turn generated the Bloomberg and Reuters articles. It is not as if he called a press conference to whine to the press about stopping deliveries and then issued press releases blaming Airbus.

4. Assuming Airbus and Boeing are tired of AAB, he has been CEO for almost 30 years and a known quantity to them, why do they still do business with him? The last Boeing order was in 2018 so it was after all the 787/A350 issues.

I think the press make way more of an issue about this than it really is and in reality deliveries of wide bodies are way below where they should be across the board mainly due to the pandemic.

VV wrote:

“If we are not able to settle that serious issue we have with them, we will refuse to take any aircraft from them,” the CEO said in an interview with Bloomberg TV. Falling out with Qatar Airways, Al Baker warned, will cause Airbus “a stress in the relationship with IAG, with LatAm, with other airlines in which we have a shareholding.”

Really?

Yes, really. No one seems to be surprised that STC is saying the same thing about 779, why should we not take AAB at his word? QR has a track record of not accepting aircraft that they are not satisfied with.

Says more about buyer's personality than it does about Airbus

Revelation wrote:

VV wrote:

“If we are not able to settle that serious issue we have with them, we will refuse to take any aircraft from them,” the CEO said in an interview with Bloomberg TV. Falling out with Qatar Airways, Al Baker warned, will cause Airbus “a stress in the relationship with IAG, with LatAm, with other airlines in which we have a shareholding.”

Really?

Yes, really. No one seems to be surprised that STC is saying the same thing about 779, why should we not take AAB at his word? QR has a track record of not accepting aircraft that they are not satisfied with.

Seriously man, what are they going to do? Stop accepting delivery of aircraft and close their airline? LOL.

That's easy,
rebrand as Qatar seaways and order some ships.

Noshow wrote:

That's easy,
rebrand as Qatar seaways and order some ships.

Or Qatar bike rental and Emirates ultra-marathon.
You can pedal to Europe or even run.

VV wrote:

Revelation wrote:

VV wrote:

“If we are not able to settle that serious issue we have with them, we will refuse to take any aircraft from them,” the CEO said in an interview with Bloomberg TV. Falling out with Qatar Airways, Al Baker warned, will cause Airbus “a stress in the relationship with IAG, with LatAm, with other airlines in which we have a shareholding.”

Really?

Yes, really. No one seems to be surprised that STC is saying the same thing about 779, why should we not take AAB at his word? QR has a track record of not accepting aircraft that they are not satisfied with.

Seriously man, what are they going to do? Stop accepting delivery of aircraft and close their airline? LOL.

This is the point all over. There are two manufacturers in the world so closing ties with one leaves you at the mercy of the other. What value is there to an airline just throwing mud and pathetic excuses at one of them all the time? This from the company that wants to be the launch customer on the 350F and boasts that it will continuously have the youngest fleet. You feel Airbus will have to go down the route of only dealing through leasing companies directly with strict acceptance terms in the future, does that really benefit QR long-term?

Credit QR where credit is due, they have a very good product, but everyone is struggling, plane manufacturers included. They are owned by the Government of Qatar, have a strong cargo operation, they can afford to complete their contractual obligations in a timely manner.