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dtw2hyd
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:40 pm

Revelation wrote:
...Boeing's strength is in wide bodies and these are the first to get grounded and the last to return.
...


Yet, bread winners (narrow bodies) get the least amount of R&D dollars and time.

As long as it is just abandoned office space, not talent or experience, no issues.
All posts are just opinions.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:43 pm

kanban wrote:
The building is mostly empty hampered by location (highway blocking access to Boeing Field), but the property value is high. It's only logical to sell the property now and build or expand research facilities elsewhere. The building is huge and never was fully utilized, even during the initial SST days it's size and volume were a waste. Heating alone is prohibitive. Computer modeling has replaced building mock-ups and most R&D is now done in much smaller labs.

Over the next 20 years we will see many of Boeings urban manufacturing, design, and R&D sites move to rural sites with better infrastructure and worker access and accommodation..


I assume the plan for various work previously done in this building is to relocate much of it to Everett. Since there is not much work going on in the building now, they presumable don't need the space immediately, so it should be a good candidate for consolidation to use the space to be freed up from the 747 and 787. I suppose there could also be space freeing up in a couple years in Fredrickson as 777 metal wing production winds down.

The high property value close to downtown, with good access to highways and the port (and barges on the river?) also favors the Duwamish area as a candidate for the facility consolidation they have been talking about.

(edited to add: nevermind about property values. The article says the building won't be sold at this time)

Utilizing other Puget Sound locations also maintains proximity with the majority of the commercial side engineering workforce.

SuseJ772 wrote:
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
.

The real question is where will Boeing be opening a new R&D Center?


As I said up the threads, Boeing has Moscow as R+D center already.

:)


Pardon me because I can't really tell if you are joking or not, nor am I knowledgeable enough to know if this is true or sarcasm. BUT assuming you aren't joking and it is true they have a Moscow facility, this can't possibly be their strategy here. There is no way the largest arms dealer in the USA is going to have their R&D facility be in Moscow. I am all for them moving out of Seattle for a better business environment, but surely their R&D will stay states side.

So I am with DL747400 here, the largest question is where is the new center?


They do have some engineering in Moscow. From what I've heard, it sounds like the Puget Sound engineering teams send some of the smaller or more repetitive tasks over there.

Boeing is not moving engineering over there wholesale. It would take decades to accomplish that. I would not be surprised if the scope of work of the Moscow office grows over time as they gain experience, but the crucial R&D work is going to continue to happen close to the core of the engineering workforce, and I think close to the most critical manufacturing, as well.

Boeing Defense's engineering workforce is mostly outside the Puget Sound region, elsewhere in the US. There may be some work on the commercial derivatives that could be affected by closing this building, but that should all have its own space in the region already, like the Everett modification center.
Last edited by iamlucky13 on Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:03 pm

Revelation wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
Were the autoclaves that will be left behind in that building large enough to bake sections of the 787 fuselage?

One thing worth considering: either the autoclaves are obsolete and will be scrapped, or they could be moved (they got there some how, they can move if needed) or someone will buy the site and operate the autoclaves for their own use or on a contract basis for others.

One site near me was a state of the art contract manufacturer of electronic circuit boards when it was built out because its big corporate owner thought they had the business to keep it busy. Well that business fell apart, so what to do with the site? Spin it off into its own company. Now it specializes in fast turn around of prototype circuit boards. It's got the people with the needed skills and the equipment to do so. All the bulk manufacturing of non-military stuff has gone to China, but this outfit has more than enough business to keep itself going with prototypes and military work that can't be off shored.

Lemons to lemonade...


I don't know if any of the maritime businesses in the area might have use for autoclave curing of large composite parts. Blue Origin might, but as far as I've heard, their large part manufacturing will be in Florida.

787 development work took place there, but the 787 program does not currently need the autoclaves. The existing supply chain makes the fuselage sections elsewhere.

If they do need large autoclaves for R&D purposes, we all know that a pair of the largest autoclaves in the world are a short drive up I-5 at their Composite Wing Center, and that they will be underutilized for several years, at least, due to changes to the 777X production plans.

The autoclaves could be moved out of Seattle, although not easily. The 777X autoclaves were fabricated onsite, so they only had be moved a short distance. There is precedence in the oil industry of moving larger structures hundreds of miles, though.
https://www.boeing.com/company/about-bc ... -2015.page
 
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DBCoop3r
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:12 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
Were the autoclaves that will be left behind in that building large enough to bake sections of the 787 fuselage?

One thing worth considering: either the autoclaves are obsolete and will be scrapped, or they could be moved (they got there some how, they can move if needed) or someone will buy the site and operate the autoclaves for their own use or on a contract basis for others.

One site near me was a state of the art contract manufacturer of electronic circuit boards when it was built out because its big corporate owner thought they had the business to keep it busy. Well that business fell apart, so what to do with the site? Spin it off into its own company. Now it specializes in fast turn around of prototype circuit boards. It's got the people with the needed skills and the equipment to do so. All the bulk manufacturing of non-military stuff has gone to China, but this outfit has more than enough business to keep itself going with prototypes and military work that can't be off shored.

Lemons to lemonade...


I don't know if any of the maritime businesses in the area might have use for autoclave curing of large composite parts. Blue Origin might, but as far as I've heard, their large part manufacturing will be in Florida.

I mentioned this at the bottom of the last page, but Boeing built the wings for the B-2 and F-22 in that building. With Boeing mentioning in that article that the R&D center will still be utilized, but being mum on what it is, things look like they are clearing out room for B-21 parts manufacturing, especially its "wing". Those big autoclaves are perfect for it.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:17 pm

If true they could not talk about top secret topics to make things more clear to the public. It might be the case that they just need to clear the place from any not TS personnel and work. This would be a different news and way better outcome than seeing them moving out for the reasons mentioned above. Thanks for mentioning.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:36 pm

amstone17 wrote:
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
Boeing has the R+D center in Moscow too.

Easy to see why they closing this one's.

Bet they wish they had 777X built elsewhere too. Boeing is leaving Washington States for good. Unions can pat themselves on back for this.



Yeah blame unions and not the toxic executive management that has been driving the corporation into the ground through terrible practices.

This isn't a union problem. This is greed, this is the same moronic mentality that gave the world the 737MAX debacle and killed hundreds of people.

Boeing is continuing to put money over all other concerns no matter what it does to their overall product line.


Didn't one of Boeing's unions threaten to strike in the early 2000's because their dental plan was going from three cleanings per year to two? They are known for being very militant.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:18 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Didn't one of Boeing's unions threaten to strike in the early 2000's because their dental plan was going from three cleanings per year to two? They are known for being very militant.

Perhaps. Do some internet searching and let us know.

Meanwhile:

Boeing Co's BA.N ousted chief executive officer, Dennis Muilenburg, is leaving the company with $62 million in compensation and pension benefits but will receive no severance pay in the wake of the 737 MAX crisis.

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN1Z92DQ

Greed everywhere you look, so it seems.

Not sure what any of this has to do with Boeing closing an under-utilized facility.
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Aircellist
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:48 am

62 millions $ but no severance pay…

I don't know how to comment that…
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:54 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Didn't one of Boeing's unions threaten to strike in the early 2000's because their dental plan was going from three cleanings per year to two? They are known for being very militant.


While they have at times been a bit militant, I doubt a reduction in dental cleanings to the frequency most Americans would plan to go the dentist was ever the singular issue driving deliberations of a strike. There is almost always a list of disagreements when the negotiations get testy.

I've long had the impression that Boeing's employees don't appreciate as well as they should what a good contracts they have gotten for themselves, and that they need to remain strategically aware of the global labor market, but they also have frequently been asked for some significant concessions.

It's my perception things have gotten subtly but meaningfully better since the 2008 strike. I think Boeing realized they were hurting themselves by more than they were gaining from pushing for too many concessions, without offering enough carrots. Offering a good 401k contribution in exchange for phasing out their pension plans is a good example of the improved stance.

With that background and the current financial context, I don't think there is any reason to read too much into this news story.
 
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75driver
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:03 am

Aircellist wrote:
62 millions $ but no severance pay…

I don't know how to comment that…


Can you imagine, no severance? What a burden and hardship on his family. Better break out the ramen noodles. :roll:
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:01 am

iamlucky13 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Didn't one of Boeing's unions threaten to strike in the early 2000's because their dental plan was going from three cleanings per year to two? They are known for being very militant.


While they have at times been a bit militant, I doubt a reduction in dental cleanings to the frequency most Americans would plan to go the dentist was ever the singular issue driving deliberations of a strike. There is almost always a list of disagreements when the negotiations get testy.

I've long had the impression that Boeing's employees don't appreciate as well as they should what a good contracts they have gotten for themselves, and that they need to remain strategically aware of the global labor market, but they also have frequently been asked for some significant concessions.

It's my perception things have gotten subtly but meaningfully better since the 2008 strike. I think Boeing realized they were hurting themselves by more than they were gaining from pushing for too many concessions, without offering enough carrots. Offering a good 401k contribution in exchange for phasing out their pension plans is a good example of the improved stance.

With that background and the current financial context, I don't think there is any reason to read too much into this news story.


Every time there is a new IAM or SPEEA contract it’s pretty much constant takeaways though. The increased 401k contribution doesn’t even come close to what the pension provided. For younger employees it’s in the ballpark of about 40% of the former pension benefit. For those very close to retirement it may come closer to even. Constant takeaways in medical benefits too. No pension or retiree medical anymore for newer employees.

On the flip side, they did recently add a few more days of vacation time. Non-Represented and SPEEA got it. Not sure about the IAM.

I agree the benefits are still not bad, but no-one likes takeaways all the while some executives are lining their own pockets with riches off the backs of the hardworking employees.

Jim McNerney (I have a few other names for him) cut everyone else’s pension while giving himself a $3,600,000 a YEAR pension for being the most disastrous CEO that Boeing has ever had.

Back to the building in question, I also don’t think it’s a big deal. I’m familiar with it. I recall KC-46 engineers working there not long ago. Everyone can be moved elsewhere. I wouldn’t read too much into it. I expect we’ll see increased virtual work. Management is realizing how well virtual work is going during the pandemic.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:28 am

lightsaber wrote:
Washington became insanely anti-business and the last 9 months of events have further reduced the appeal.


Still is not stopping Amazon adding 15,000 people to Bellevue, alone. And Microsoft continues to hire heavily in Redmond.

Downtown Seattle might be hurting, but the surrounding cities are seeing solid high-wage job growth.


dtw2hyd wrote:
Seattle thinks Amazon was the root cause for their housing issue and took necessary corrective actions. Could this be the reason WA being labeled as not business friendly.


Amazon just moved across Lake Washington to Bellevue (where I live). They have bought multiple skyscrapers in downtown Bellevue and are building another to house up to 15,000 employees they plan to add over the next few years. And Microsoft owns or leases out a half-dozen skyscrapers in Bellevue because they can't build fast enough in Redmond.


DL747400 wrote:
The real question is where will Boeing be opening a new R&D Center? Or at least a location which performs the equivalent to the work previously done at the Seattle facility.


The composite design and proofing work formerly done at the ADC is being farmed out to other Boeing facilities, the majority of which are still in the Puget Sound area. So still staying not only with WA state, but within greater Seattle.
 
Sokes
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:40 am

kanban wrote:
...
Over the next 20 years we will see many of Boeings urban manufacturing, design, and R&D sites move to rural sites with better infrastructure and worker access and accommodation..

Makes more sense now.
Are software companies moving in because engineers' children have a high chance of being nerds?
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d8s
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:10 am

75driver wrote:
It’s pains me to see what the Seattle area has become and it’s more than politics or unions. The social issues have divided the region and the current city council is one of those woke police cancel culture entities. I’m not in a position to comment on the business climate but the social positions taken by the city council, along with a very high cost of living, stops me from considering moving back to my home town. My entire family has multiple members work for Boeing at one time or another and almost all of them have left the PNW. Some via transfers and some on the own accord. There is a very interesting KOMO News video on YouTube outlining the controversial social issues/policies including decriminalizing some forms of theft and lax criminal sentencing guidelines being instituted in Seattle. It stands to reason these issues have an impact on Boeing and other businesses when contemplating Seattle as a business center.


Being a business owner who brought a buisness to WA state, I can tell you it is NOT a business friendly envinroment. The regulations and taxation are tedious and expensive. The sociual issues that you discuss certainly play a huge role, as do the strength of the unions. Tack on an instant 20% to an employee salary for taxes, benefits, etc and then tack on the "cost" of the union (work restrictions, excess salaries, etc) and it becomes a financial burden to a company that needs to control its P&L. Boeing will move a huge amount of it's work force out to control costs...period.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:49 am

kanban wrote:
The building is mostly empty hampered by location (highway blocking access to Boeing Field), but the property value is high. It's only logical to sell the property now and build or expand research facilities elsewhere. The building is huge and never was fully utilized, even during the initial SST days it's size and volume were a waste. Heating alone is prohibitive. Computer modeling has replaced building mock-ups and most R&D is now done in much smaller labs.

Over the next 20 years we will see many of Boeings urban manufacturing, design, and R&D sites move to rural sites with better infrastructure and worker access and accommodation..


Yes, a very hampered location - Duwamish River, some deep properties, Marginal Way (a 4 lane pretty good street), then hangers and the like for Boeing Field, Airport Way (another street), a railroad yard, and I-5 along with some not flat terrain.

This is the original home to Boeing. The Red Barn at the Museum of Flight is one of two remaining structures of the original Plant 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Plant_1

Just north of this is the site of Plant 2, where the B-17, B-29, B-52 and B-737 all were built at. The main Plant 2 building is gone, but a bunch of the building still have Plant 2 numbers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Plant_2.

Several buildings here have been turned over to the Museum, a lot are on their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, ... 9th purpose. It is very likely that most of the Boeing Buildings here could be excess, but it would take some time to consolidate, relocate, etc to get the site to its best value, as large of a parcel as possible.

It's a tricky area to build in - in the flood plain, deep soft soft soils requiring DEEP piling, like 30" diameter x 3/8" wall driven nearly 200 feet, some of the soil 100' down has the consistency of a day old milkshake. It is a real bowl of jello in the earthquake. Add over $150/SF just for the deep piling.

Which hurts airplane production in the Puget Sound, losing these buildings or something at Renton or Everett. Boeing commercial probably needs to shed a 1/3 of its physical assets, keeping only those that pay their way.
 
ewt340
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:55 am

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
Boeing has the R+D center in Moscow too.

Easy to see why they closing this one's.

Bet they wish they had 777X built elsewhere too. Boeing is leaving Washington States for good. Unions can pat themselves on back for this.


I bet the quality of B787 they produce in a non-union plant have a really high quality. Oh wait....

Seriously, we know Boeing made bad decisions over and over again. This is just another one.

I can't believe anybody could side with Boeing over this at all, especially after B787 and the MAX saga.
 
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zeke
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:45 am

kanban wrote:
The building is mostly empty hampered by location (highway blocking access to Boeing Field), but the property value is high. It's only logical to sell the property now and build or expand research facilities elsewhere. The building is huge and never was fully utilized, even during the initial SST days it's size and volume were a waste. Heating alone is prohibitive. Computer modeling has replaced building mock-ups and most R&D is now done in much smaller labs.

Over the next 20 years we will see many of Boeings urban manufacturing, design, and R&D sites move to rural sites with better infrastructure and worker access and accommodation..


Are you able to share what sort of R&D is being done there ? If more fundamental science based research that that is NASA sponsored, or is it more aircraft conceptual design, detailed design ?

It might help us understand where they end up moving the new location to.

Raw science maybe better suited closer to academic institutions or NASA facilities, whereas with collaborative work processes I could even see designers working from home in the future. I think Covid has changed many companies attitude to office space requirements and working from home.
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texl1649
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:57 am

A lot of computer modeling can also be done via WFH now. Washington has also been on full lockdown for much of 2020, and is a relatively totalitarian state as far as enforcement.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:24 pm

So no one see's this as a result of the 787 and MAX debacles, and I do not mean the crashes but the design issues?
We usually say someone should pay the price and we tend to think it should only be the suits in the executive offices because they make a lot of money, but what about the professionals who also screwed up, do their failings get overlooked?
Does this mean that the next new build coming out of Boeing will not be tainted by those who did work on the 787, MAX and 777X, is Boeing moving forward and closing a chapter that has cost them plenty?
Just giving a flip side of the story, maybe we are too focused on the actual jobs in the region and not the work that they may have done.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:53 pm

par13del wrote:
So no one see's this as a result of the 787 and MAX debacles, and I do not mean the crashes but the design issues?


Why would engineers pay the price when management sets priorities. Let's spend 95% of design money and time on 777X and patch up something to push MAX into service quickly.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:16 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
.

The real question is where will Boeing be opening a new R&D Center?


As I said up the threads, Boeing has Moscow as R+D center already.

:)


Yeah, IIRC Boeing was so impressed with the work Moscow did on the 787 that they had to redo it all in Seattle. But hey, there's always Moscow. :spin:
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Noshow
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:30 pm

Didn't Moscow do the Dreamlifter and the 747-8 mods as well?
So they can do AF1 next. :D
 
TranscendZac
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:02 pm

Revelation wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Didn't one of Boeing's unions threaten to strike in the early 2000's because their dental plan was going from three cleanings per year to two? They are known for being very militant.

Perhaps. Do some internet searching and let us know.

Meanwhile:

Boeing Co's BA.N ousted chief executive officer, Dennis Muilenburg, is leaving the company with $62 million in compensation and pension benefits but will receive no severance pay in the wake of the 737 MAX crisis.

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN1Z92DQ

Greed everywhere you look, so it seems.

Not sure what any of this has to do with Boeing closing an under-utilized facility.


This is an absolutely crystal clear example of the greed of American business (can’t speak for other nations) that is really disgusting. How does this man deserve $62M in payout after the way he steered Boeing the last several years. What a joke.
Zac
 
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:11 pm

Noshow wrote:
Does Boeing move away from every place that has unionized labor to non-union places only? How is this supposed to work for society and the economy? Boeing receives a lot of orders from taxpayers money plus reduced taxes for Washington site manufacturing.
I don't blame Boeing alone for all this mess but how about negotiating with the unions and come to some more peaceful setting instead of moving out?
Can conflict be the way to move forward?


Boeing ** Unions.
Conflict between two deranged parties that can't back off.
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WIederling
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:37 pm

Noshow wrote:
Didn't Moscow do the Dreamlifter and the 747-8 mods as well?
So they can do AF1 next. :D


IMU mostly 747-8 stuff.
The issue apparently was that the drawings going to Moscow
did not reflect 747 production status at all.
( what you get when all the isssues coming up were fixed fast back when.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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glideslope
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:48 pm

amstone17 wrote:
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
Boeing has the R+D center in Moscow too.

Easy to see why they closing this one's.

Bet they wish they had 777X built elsewhere too. Boeing is leaving Washington States for good. Unions can pat themselves on back for this.



Yeah blame unions and not the toxic executive management that has been driving the corporation into the ground through terrible practices.

This isn't a union problem. This is greed, this is the same moronic mentality that gave the world the 737MAX debacle and killed hundreds of people.

Boeing is continuing to put money over all other concerns no matter what it does to their overall product line.


Well said. The QC lacking POS Frames coming out of Charleston simply reinforce the consequences of a disgruntled, underpaid workforce.
Boeing will eventually be required to merge with another entity to survive due to their septic management, and cutting corners. I feel no sorrow for the company. Only the thousands of families that will suffer from their criminal behavior.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:56 pm

Kenneth Galbraith wrote a book, IIRC, in the 80s on how management had captured corporations. They kept their power by placating Wall Street, but compensated for that by greatly rewarding failed management. Just in the Seattle area see Seattle First National Bank, Washington Mutual, and obviously Boeing. Financiers, Management, and usually stockholders win. Everyone else loses.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:57 pm

Sokes wrote:
kanban wrote:
...
Over the next 20 years we will see many of Boeings urban manufacturing, design, and R&D sites move to rural sites with better infrastructure and worker access and accommodation..

Makes more sense now.
Are software companies moving in because engineers' children have a high chance of being nerds?


Recreational stuff is good for out of box thinking which leads to innovative design, same time bad for testing and quality control. That's why most software/apps are innovative but crap when you try to use it.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:29 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Kenneth Galbraith wrote a book, IIRC, in the 80s on how management had captured corporations. They kept their power by placating Wall Street, but compensated for that by greatly rewarding failed management. Just in the Seattle area see Seattle First National Bank, Washington Mutual, and obviously Boeing. Financiers, Management, and usually stockholders win. Everyone else loses.

In turn, given that in the US we have no government backed pension scheme (unless you work for the government or you think you can survive on Social Security), most people trying to save for retirement are players in that game too, like it or not. I suppose they could just buy T bills or put it in savings accounts or buy gold bars and bury them in the back yard, but all those things have down sides too.

Bottom line is it isn't just the financiers who have skin in the game, it's lots of "ordinary people" too, via 401(k) plans and other investment vehicles. This is what gives financial jackals a lot of freedom. They can say you are messing with grandma's retirement, leave me out of this.
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The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Blasst
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:12 pm

75driver wrote:
Aircellist wrote:
62 millions $ but no severance pay…

I don't know how to comment that…


Can you imagine, no severance? What a burden and hardship on his family. Better break out the ramen noodles. :roll:


I was wondering what he was doing after leaving Boeing.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... tor-maker/
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:14 pm

My non-profit has a very good fully funded pension plan, which has always included, but not guaranteed, inflation protection. In the 'oughts' it granted a huge monthly increase. But subsequently it was worried about future benefits. It once invested mostly in stocks and highly rated bonds. Its investment strategy has subsequently changed and it now uses a lot of alternative investing in order to ensure that younger workers will also enjoy a safe pension. It does not consider the stock market as the gold standard for long term investing. I read the entire annual report, and it is not as easy to understand as several decades ago. Its longer term goal is to be about 115% fully funded, and the good medical supplement must remain the slack which could be sacrificed if things go sour.

It is unfortunate that Boeing (and about every other company) bargained with unions over pension benefits by promising pensions that could only be fulfilled by future generations Boeing profits. The advantage of a fully funded pension is that not only is the worker protected, but so is Boeing. At the end of the day (year, etc), Boeing does not owe the worker a damn penny, nor does the worker have to worry about Boeing keeping its word, or able to keep its word.

And contrary to some individuals a large pension fund is able to take advantage of investments that simply are not available to individuals.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:25 pm

Blasst wrote:
75driver wrote:
Aircellist wrote:
62 millions $ but no severance pay…

I don't know how to comment that…


Can you imagine, no severance? What a burden and hardship on his family. Better break out the ramen noodles. :roll:


I was wondering what he was doing after leaving Boeing.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... tor-maker/


Honestly I think Dennis was the best CEO that Boeing had in a long time. He was starting to undo the damage from Phil, Harry, and Jim McGreedy. I don’t disagree that he handled the Max crisis poorly, buy I think he was made a scapegoat for damage that his predecessors did.
 
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kanban
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:23 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:

This is the original home to Boeing. The Red Barn at the Museum of Flight is one of two remaining structures of the original Plant 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Plant_1

Just north of this is the site of Plant 2, where the B-17, B-29, B-52 and B-737 all were built at. The main Plant 2 building is gone, but a bunch of the building still have Plant 2 numbers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Plant_2.


Just to clarify, This is not the original Boeing site... that was a boat yard on Lake Union, The Red Barn was much further up the Duwamish, nearly at Elliot Bay and was relocated to the Museum of Flight location years ago. The complex was originally related to missile development and there were (are?) two silos next to Marginal Way where they tested install and removal (mechanical) practices. They main building was built for SST development and housed the mock-up. It was planned to be the SST FAL but alas.... since then small portions have been utilized for R&D projects, Tool design, and some limited composite development... nothing that requires the high bay. The location and access to Boeing Field is a pain even though there is the Military ramp across the street. I recall prior to I-5 being constructed being stuck infront of the old Plant ll for over an hour while they secured the area to tow a B-52 across the highway.

Also note the purpose built Spares and post delivery engineering building that was built on the old drive-in site just to the south a bit was sold to one of those storage facility companies.
 
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kanban
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:41 pm

zeke wrote:
Are you able to share what sort of R&D is being done there ? If more fundamental science based research that that is NASA sponsored, or is it more aircraft conceptual design, detailed design ?

It might help us understand where they end up moving the new location to.

Raw science maybe better suited closer to academic institutions or NASA facilities, whereas with collaborative work processes I could even see designers working from home in the future. I think Covid has changed many companies attitude to office space requirements and working from home.


Anything requiring large spaces or high-bay will probably be in Everett, smaller projects will be closer to the actual intended use site. There was a materials R&D lab and office complex in Renton... but I have no idea where they were disbursed to.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:16 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
It is more than union/management. That is one issue.

The bigger issue is Washington State becoming less business friendly while other states beckon business.

Government used to keep businesses with incentives and tax breaks. In places like Washington, those things now face backlash. Rather than deal with potential backlash, companies instead opt for cheap sunbelt states where they dont need incentives


(1) Boeing had significant incentives and could get whatever it wanted - when it wanted to undo incentives, it got those too. (2) Those "cheap" states hand out incentives like candy and they are a critical element of the move.

The whole WA is less business friendly narrative is tiring. Is the City of Seattle less business friendly? Yes. But, Boeing has a more limited presence in the actual City. The state isn't what people pretend; indeed, most tax increases were actually negotiated or even supported by the businesses because of the investment in education, etc. that has a significant future impact for those businesses. Those cheap states typically have mediocre at best education that isn't sustainable long-term, IMO.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:16 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
par13del wrote:
So no one see's this as a result of the 787 and MAX debacles, and I do not mean the crashes but the design issues?


Why would engineers pay the price when management sets priorities. Let's spend 95% of design money and time on 777X and patch up something to push MAX into service quickly.


Yes, design issues are a part of this. Based on what I know of aircraft structural assembly considerations, including shimming, I strongly suspect the shimming issues on the 787 are more about design, in particular on the manufacturing engineering side, than about the mechanics. A see a lot of people involved in discussions about this clearly speaking without experience planning work in tightly controlled manufacturing environments who are happy to just blame the assembly workers, but I'm certain the reality is more complicated than that.

If a mechanic installs something not per the instructions, measures a gap wrong, leaves something out, fails to report a discrepancy, does not clean FOD, etc, that is indeed a workmanship issue.

If their drawings, instructions, procedures, etc. don't give them enough detail about how a part fits in, where and how to measure, what to inspect for discrepancies, when to inspect for FOD, that is a planning or engineering issue. If a machine, even when properly operated, does not produce the intended design tolerance, that's an issue either an unrealistic tolerance by the design engineer, or deficient equipment from the engineers who designed that (unless it is caused by mistakes by the workers who maintain the equipment). The details Boeing has provided about the current fuselage shimming issues strongly suggest to me engineering challenges.

To be fair to the engineers, having had to deal myself with tolerance stackups and methods of accounting for them in design and assembly, what I have read about the issue sounds like to-be-expected teething pains from a new approach to trying to deal with a difficult manufacturing challenge, and a miss on the interaction between two separate discrepancies.

The MCAS design issues are currently subject to a criminal investigation, and we won't hear anything about individual responsibility unless and until anyone is charged with a crime. It is certainly possible for an engineer, especially one responsible for final signoff, to be charged with negligence if they did not do something they had a professional obligation to do or if they hid any information. And it is certainly possible for a manager to be charged with negligence if they pressured engineers to make bad decision, and that goes doubly so for any engineer with designated FAA responsibilities.

texl1649 wrote:
A lot of computer modeling can also be done via WFH now. Washington has also been on full lockdown for much of 2020, and is a relatively totalitarian state as far as enforcement.


Washington has never been on full lockdown. There were 4 weeks in March where the state was mostly locked down, but it was less restrictive than what some other states and many nations were doing at roughly the same time, and certainly not for most of the year.

There have continued to be quite a few activity restrictions of course, at times severely impacting numerous businesses. I seem to recall Boeing was declared essential at some point, so even though they kept their factories closed during the 4 week state lockdown, I think they could have opened earlier if they had wanted to insist the workforce come onsite while the rest of the state was locked down.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:23 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
A lot of computer modeling can also be done via WFH now. Washington has also been on full lockdown for much of 2020, and is a relatively totalitarian state as far as enforcement.


Washington has never been on full lockdown. There were 4 weeks in March where the state was mostly locked down, but it was less restrictive than what some other states and many nations were doing at roughly the same time, and certainly not for most of the year.

There have continued to be quite a few activity restrictions of course, at times severely impacting numerous businesses. I seem to recall Boeing was declared essential at some point, so even though they kept their factories closed during the 4 week state lockdown, I think they could have opened earlier if they had wanted to insist the workforce come onsite while the rest of the state was locked down.


Exactly. The hyperbole regarding WA state in this thread is incredible. WA state was *never* on full lockdown and has been open that enforcement is virtually nil with the exception of certain businesses flagrantly ignoring policies. Totalitarian? Lol. As iamlucky13 said, some restrictions are more intense than other states, but of course our case numbers and deaths (while not good) are far below those who think indoor dining is OK.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:27 pm

I think posters on this thread are missing the obvious: R and D in aviation is dead. There hasn't been any innovation for almost 20 years, and in reality far longer than that. The fast sellers are A320 series and B737 series, both updates from 1980s and 1960s designs. R and D? Airlines can no longer support the cost of capital to create any innovation. The 748 and 380 are already gone and, even upgraded versions of older jets like the 330N and 777x are in serious jeopardy. This industry is in freefall. The only profitable segment, cargo, has not in modern times ever supported development of a new airplane type.

Fighting over which city or state gets and R and D office is like fighting over a dead carcass.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:37 pm

SteelChair wrote:
I think posters on this thread are missing the obvious: R and D in aviation is dead. There hasn't been any innovation for almost 20 years, and in reality far longer than that. The fast sellers are A320 series and B737 series, both updates from 1980s and 1960s designs. R and D? Airlines can no longer support the cost of capital to create any innovation. The 748 and 380 are already gone and, even upgraded versions of older jets like the 330N and 777x are in serious jeopardy. This industry is in freefall. The only profitable segment, cargo, has not in modern times ever supported development of a new airplane type.

Fighting over which city or state gets and R and D office is like fighting over a dead carcass.


I would certainly not say it is dead, although it seems it is being overpowered by financial results for the manufacturers. The industry freefall bottomed out a while ago and will likely continue to rebound - its a short-term issue. I'm not the engineering expert, but I think we have seen a lot of innovation (including some ideas that were able to be applied to commercial), like carbon fiber, GTF, etc.

My concern is that this short-term thinking will have long-term consequences because some new venture (Boom, Aerion, etc.) have invested in innovation. Edit to add that look at the history of manufacturers, Airbus really isn't that old. McDonnell/Douglas and Bombardier now gone after decades. Lack of innovation, among other issues, wiped those companies out.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:09 pm

SteelChair wrote:
I think posters on this thread are missing the obvious: R and D in aviation is dead. There hasn't been any innovation for almost 20 years, and in reality far longer than that. The fast sellers are A320 series and B737 series, both updates from 1980s and 1960s designs. R and D? Airlines can no longer support the cost of capital to create any innovation. The 748 and 380 are already gone and, even upgraded versions of older jets like the 330N and 777x are in serious jeopardy. This industry is in freefall. The only profitable segment, cargo, has not in modern times ever supported development of a new airplane type.

Fighting over which city or state gets and R and D office is like fighting over a dead carcass.


The 787/350 programs laugh at the assertion that R and D in aviation stopped in 2020.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:41 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I think posters on this thread are missing the obvious: R and D in aviation is dead. There hasn't been any innovation for almost 20 years, and in reality far longer than that. The fast sellers are A320 series and B737 series, both updates from 1980s and 1960s designs. R and D? Airlines can no longer support the cost of capital to create any innovation. The 748 and 380 are already gone and, even upgraded versions of older jets like the 330N and 777x are in serious jeopardy. This industry is in freefall. The only profitable segment, cargo, has not in modern times ever supported development of a new airplane type.

Fighting over which city or state gets and R and D office is like fighting over a dead carcass.


I would certainly not say it is dead, although it seems it is being overpowered by financial results for the manufacturers. The industry freefall bottomed out a while ago and will likely continue to rebound - its a short-term issue. I'm not the engineering expert, but I think we have seen a lot of innovation (including some ideas that were able to be applied to commercial), like carbon fiber, GTF, etc.

My concern is that this short-term thinking will have long-term consequences because some new venture (Boom, Aerion, etc.) have invested in innovation. Edit to add that look at the history of manufacturers, Airbus really isn't that old. McDonnell/Douglas and Bombardier now gone after decades. Lack of innovation, among other issues, wiped those companies out.

I hope our competition has the mindset not to invest in Aerospace R&D. Aviation has slow progress, 1% to 1.2% fuel burn reduction per year. It is slow and steady and grinds down.

Bombardier was wiped out by too much innovation at once. Cold cure CFRP without thinking about the impact of altitude... C-series, 7500, and Lear 85 at once at a company sized for one major project or two upgrades at a time.

Why mention Douglas? The have been gone for decades (excluding C-17) for new production.

Lightsaber
5 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:01 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Blasst wrote:
75driver wrote:

Can you imagine, no severance? What a burden and hardship on his family. Better break out the ramen noodles. :roll:


I was wondering what he was doing after leaving Boeing.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... tor-maker/


Honestly I think Dennis was the best CEO that Boeing had in a long time. He was starting to undo the damage from Phil, Harry, and Jim McGreedy. I don’t disagree that he handled the Max crisis poorly, buy I think he was made a scapegoat for damage that his predecessors did.


Good to see you back posting BoeingGuy. You were missed.

Yes the damage from Jim McGreedy was quite bad. He was the one presiding over the Trojan horse 7 Late 7 rollout of the hollow plane along with the announcement that it would fly in 6 weeks. Either he was surrounded by Yes men, who were surrounded by Yes men that couldn't tell him it was a fake or he is an idiot.

He was the one in charge when way too much was outsourced on the 787, also at the helm when the MAX was in progress. His parachute as he left made Dennis's look paltry.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:24 pm

lightsaber wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I think posters on this thread are missing the obvious: R and D in aviation is dead. There hasn't been any innovation for almost 20 years, and in reality far longer than that. The fast sellers are A320 series and B737 series, both updates from 1980s and 1960s designs. R and D? Airlines can no longer support the cost of capital to create any innovation. The 748 and 380 are already gone and, even upgraded versions of older jets like the 330N and 777x are in serious jeopardy. This industry is in freefall. The only profitable segment, cargo, has not in modern times ever supported development of a new airplane type.

Fighting over which city or state gets and R and D office is like fighting over a dead carcass.


I would certainly not say it is dead, although it seems it is being overpowered by financial results for the manufacturers. The industry freefall bottomed out a while ago and will likely continue to rebound - its a short-term issue. I'm not the engineering expert, but I think we have seen a lot of innovation (including some ideas that were able to be applied to commercial), like carbon fiber, GTF, etc.

My concern is that this short-term thinking will have long-term consequences because some new venture (Boom, Aerion, etc.) have invested in innovation. Edit to add that look at the history of manufacturers, Airbus really isn't that old. McDonnell/Douglas and Bombardier now gone after decades. Lack of innovation, among other issues, wiped those companies out.


I hope our competition has the mindset not to invest in Aerospace R&D. Aviation has slow progress, 1% to 1.2% fuel burn reduction per year. It is slow and steady and grinds down.

Bombardier was wiped out by too much innovation at once. Cold cure CFRP without thinking about the impact of altitude... C-series, 7500, and Lear 85 at once at a company sized for one major project or two upgrades at a time.

Why mention Douglas? The have been gone for decades (excluding C-17) for new production.

Lightsaber


The competition is really the Chinese, how many years will it be before they get the design right on engines, terrifying the day that they do.

BBD wiped out by mis-management, their board approved and watched the disaster unfold of 3 programs in development with the capacity to do one - maybe. The train side has also been a large clusterf**k, when the NY subway won't buy your crappy train cars it is not a good sign.

The last new MD plane was the 3rd update and refresh of the DC-9, DC-9, MD-80, MD-88, MD-90, MD-95 (later 717) which got its first order in 1995. MD died because they stopped innovating, because they had no money to innovate.

There are different values to R&D, the money spent to get the digital designs going that has been used for the T-7 are vital to a company. That must continue.

The R&D to do composites using the equipment and ovens etc that are now 15 years old probably has a low payback. The R&D on composites done at the Everett Wing Center is very important and must continue. Moving the folks from Boeing Field to Everett makes sense.

Doing R&D on a trussed wing fuel cell / electric plane powered by distilled moss or needing a pressure vessel tank that weighs 50% of the OEW does not have much of a return in today's dollars and probably should stop if there are zero plans to start a new model within 5 years.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:24 pm

SteelChair wrote:
I think posters on this thread are missing the obvious: R and D in aviation is dead. There hasn't been any innovation for almost 20 years, and in reality far longer than that. The fast sellers are A320 series and B737 series, both updates from 1980s and 1960s designs. R and D? Airlines can no longer support the cost of capital to create any innovation. The 748 and 380 are already gone and, even upgraded versions of older jets like the 330N and 777x are in serious jeopardy. This industry is in freefall. The only profitable segment, cargo, has not in modern times ever supported development of a new airplane type.

Fighting over which city or state gets and R and D office is like fighting over a dead carcass.


This not correct. First of all, Boeing was working on a cleansheet NMA, until they determined that market niche was too risky. And there seems to be little doubt that they will ultimately try to gain the upper hand over the A320 with a cleansheet 737 replacement.

You might not see any innovation because every aircraft looks visually similar, but there is a lot of R&D being done (although slower this year with the industry cost cuts). On the aerodynamic side, the remaining gains to be achieved are not going to be major, but I'm sure they continue to work on it, at least on a program-specific basis. A fair amount still goes on with materials, both composites and metal, and especially the methods for working with them. For mechanical systems, there is continual work on improving reliability, cost, and weight.

I think posters on this site are at least typically aware that engine manufacturers are constantly working on efficiency with increasing temperatures and pressure ratios and reduced tolerances. And there is occasional news about work on distant projects that may or may not come to fruition like electric hybrid or hydrogren power, and blended wing body designs.

But who among here reads trade publications in order to be aware of work evaluating thermosetting polymers against thermoplastics for composite matrix materials in different applications, and how to create a practical thermoplastic composite layup cell when the workpiece might need to be kept at temperatures unfit for human occupancy? Or determining how to replace continuous fiber in low stress locations with lower cost and more rapidly manufactured extruded chopped fiber composites. Or determinate assembly conducted on increasingly large scales? Or one-up drill, shim, and fastening assembly? Or automated inspection techniques? Or qualifying self-contained electro-hydraulic actuators or even direct electric actuators in place of centralized hydraulics.

Hopefully, a decent number have caught the discussions about aircraft health monitoring and predictive maintenance. This is likely to be an important development, although there is a lot to learn still about how to use the data. Also, plenty of people should recall reading about FAUB. That did not go well for a variety of reasons, but sometimes that's what happens with R&D.
Last edited by iamlucky13 on Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:26 pm

lightsaber wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I think posters on this thread are missing the obvious: R and D in aviation is dead. There hasn't been any innovation for almost 20 years, and in reality far longer than that. The fast sellers are A320 series and B737 series, both updates from 1980s and 1960s designs. R and D? Airlines can no longer support the cost of capital to create any innovation. The 748 and 380 are already gone and, even upgraded versions of older jets like the 330N and 777x are in serious jeopardy. This industry is in freefall. The only profitable segment, cargo, has not in modern times ever supported development of a new airplane type.

Fighting over which city or state gets and R and D office is like fighting over a dead carcass.


I would certainly not say it is dead, although it seems it is being overpowered by financial results for the manufacturers. The industry freefall bottomed out a while ago and will likely continue to rebound - its a short-term issue. I'm not the engineering expert, but I think we have seen a lot of innovation (including some ideas that were able to be applied to commercial), like carbon fiber, GTF, etc.

My concern is that this short-term thinking will have long-term consequences because some new venture (Boom, Aerion, etc.) have invested in innovation. Edit to add that look at the history of manufacturers, Airbus really isn't that old. McDonnell/Douglas and Bombardier now gone after decades. Lack of innovation, among other issues, wiped those companies out.

I hope our competition has the mindset not to invest in Aerospace R&D. Aviation has slow progress, 1% to 1.2% fuel burn reduction per year. It is slow and steady and grinds down.

Bombardier was wiped out by too much innovation at once. Cold cure CFRP without thinking about the impact of altitude... C-series, 7500, and Lear 85 at once at a company sized for one major project or two upgrades at a time.

Why mention Douglas? The have been gone for decades (excluding C-17) for new production.

Lightsaber


Your response got me to what I wanted to say, but couldn't seem to put it in words. The innovations with long-term consequences, IMO, are those that are leaps in technology (see reference to Boom, Aerion). Doing the slow improvements isn't going to get customers to switch from existing products and manufacturers because the cost will be prohibitive.

My reference to McDonnell/Douglas is that over decades there have only ever been a few players, but they do come and go and I would be sad to see Boeing one of those going because it didn't invest in innovation. For example, if Boeing invested more in a 737 replacement with much newer tech and innovation, would it be better off now than with the MAX? Maybe, of course, it could have led to a very expensive program that didn't provide the necessary technological leap and operational benefits/savings to justify the cost.

Perhaps working at a tech companies skews my view of the importance of innovation, particularly as the economics of innovation are just very different for an aircraft manufacturer.
 
LMP737
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:37 am

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
Boeing has the R+D center in Moscow too.

Easy to see why they closing this one's.

Bet they wish they had 777X built elsewhere too. Boeing is leaving Washington States for good. Unions can pat themselves on back for this.


Congratulations, you can repeat talk radio talking points. It was the union engineers, production workers and lower level management that saved the 787 program from the gross upper level mismanagement. Their reward, frozen pension plans and pink slips.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
LMP737
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:46 am

mxaxai wrote:
Exactly, Boeing is being pushed out by more profitable, more future-proof businesses. They can't pay the smart people in Seattle enough to stay with Boeing, so they have to scavenge for cheap talent elsewhere.


Another problem Boeing has in Seattle is getting the locals to work there. Over the decades people have seen family and/or friends get jerked around and decide Boeing was not for them.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
zippy
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:27 am

glideslope wrote:
Well said. The QC lacking POS Frames coming out of Charleston simply reinforce the consequences of a disgruntled, underpaid workforce.
Boeing will eventually be required to merge with another entity to survive due to their septic management, and cutting corners. I feel no sorrow for the company. Only the thousands of families that will suffer from their criminal behavior.


What of the problems with the KC-46 frames? Are the union workers underpaid as well? The non-union plant (and its associated problems) are a symptom of an utterly incompetent (and criminally negligent) management. Salary is only part of the picture here.
 
Fred15
Posts: 4
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:52 am

Capricorn wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Half of the SF Bay Area's computer industry is moving to the Seattle region. Business certainly is not on the way out.

Exactly, Boeing is being pushed out by more profitable, more future-proof businesses. They can't pay the smart people in Seattle enough to stay with Boeing, so they have to scavenge for cheap talent elsewhere.


Pretty much This!!

Usually manufacturing industries go to places that semi-urban and not the biggest cities. 100 years ago Boeing (or many other manufacturers) probably would not have gone to NY, Boston or Philly but rather the Midwest. (With the exception of Hamburg Airbus is also not set up in a high cost city) To move of Boeing simply shows the degree of urban development coupled with economic development that Seattle and Washington State went through. While Boeing is leaving, it is at the same time replaced by the higher yielding Tech and Life Science Industry.

Unfortunately in the US everything seems to be hyper politicised (speaking as an outsider) and therefore everything is seen as red vs blue or so it seems to me.


Agree with this observation. Boeing is no longer considered a top or prestigious employer by the tech crowd in Seattle. However, not everyone is smart enough to work in tech or life sciences. We need jobs and employers for others as well.
 
Redsand187
Posts: 63
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Re: Boeing to close Seattle R&D center

Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:40 am

I find it odd being that Washington is SOOOOO unfriendly to businesses, it is home to two of the largest companies in the world. (one of which is actively petitioning the state to INCREASE their taxes)
The 4th largest retailer, the 3rd largest restaurant, the USA's largest truck manufacturer, all are founded and operated in Washington State.
There are countless segment-defining businesses, especially in tech, that founded and operated in Washington, with many of the other large tech companies opening satellite offices in Washington.
Washington's GDP has grown more than any other state's in the past 5 years, job growth has been top 5.

To me... that suggests that Washington is not unfriendly to businesses, and if you have to leave a state where so much success is created, you obviously aren't able to compete amongst the elite level of the world's best.

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