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Polot
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:24 pm

WIederling wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214

The NTSB reached the following final conclusion:
........ <selective quote> .


See: Accident Report NTSB/AAR-14/01 PB2014-105984 "4. Recommendations" p148ff

Quite a number of "Require Boeing to ..."

Not really. There are two recommendations to Boeing (pg150): Revise an operating manual and revise automatic flight controls so that aircraft remains at or above minimum desired energy conditions at all portions of flight.

As I said earlier almost all pilot error crashes have recommended improvements to the OEM, especially in regards to training and manuals and how things are stated and worded to put emphasis on things to avoid a similar error in the future. It’s probably a struggle to find a crash due to pilot error that doesn’t suggest changes to operating and training manuals, since the pilot error is usually born out of a operating or training mistake.

Sometimes the recommendations are implemented, sometimes they are not viewed as practical and are not.
 
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:32 pm

I'm still confused by how the Asiana 777 accident is presumably similar to the Sriwijaya one...
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
BMcD
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:04 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
I'm still confused by how the Asiana 777 accident is presumably similar to the Sriwijaya one...


It is always passionate people that are Airbus fanboys and Boeing fanboys and anything that seems remotely close to another that shows why the product they don't like is inferior. A current generation 777 has nothing to do with a classic 737. The Asiana happened on a landing sequence with pilots that weren't watching everything unfold while this was on a climb out. I agree with you, one has nothing to do with another. I wish that the topic would stay at hand vs some of the arguments about A vs B.
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:05 am

Aseem747 wrote:
lol what!? How do they know if the auto throttle failure was due to a design flaw or poor maintenance to sue Boeing for this?


OEMs always get sued when an aircraft they constructed crashes. Every time, regardless of the cause.
Suing before the investigation is completed is a little premature however.
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wjcandee
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:09 am

garpd wrote:
Aseem747 wrote:
lol what!? How do they know if the auto throttle failure was due to a design flaw or poor maintenance to sue Boeing for this?


OEMs always get sued when an aircraft they constructed crashes. Every time, regardless of the cause.
Suing before the investigation is completed is a little premature however.


As a lawyer working on contingency, as these guys are, there's a benefit to being the first-to-file. So they do it as soon as they have signed up one or more clients. The claim is legally-ripe as soon as a plaintiff is harmed. It doesn't take much to sketch out an allegation of facts from the newspaper, which can be revised down the line, along with traditional allegations of negligence, lack of fitness for a particular use, and whatever legal theories they can come up with under US law, probably not even waiting for an analysis of the law of the jurisdiction in which the victims lived. That latter bit is important, because many states will want to apply the law of the jurisdiction in which the harm was felt, which in a suit for damages is usually where the victims lived. So, often, they'll look for a "harmed" relative in the US.

Lawyers will also try to file in a friendly jurisdiction. I once defended one of many parties in a large, multi-defendant personal injury case in a tiny Texas town, the county seat of a jurisdiction where the juries were known for their high verdicts, and the Plaintiffs' Lawyers had hired the District Attorney as their local counsel (which was permitted in Texas then). The judge wasn't a bad guy by any means, but he overtly favored holding onto the case in its current form -- it was a big one which was getting noticed. We moved to dismiss on the basis that the lawyers really had no business lumping this particular group of plaintiffs together in an effort to shoehorn them all into a single case in this very-favorable jurisdiction, rather than where they really should have sued. It was a technical issue, but an important one, and we destroyed the plaintiffs' lawyers in a multi-day hearing. Just dismembered them and embarrassed them by making crystal clear what the absolutely-inarguable law was that controlled the matter, to the point that the judge was red-faced and glaring at them because they had handed him this giant poop sandwich to swallow. This was 100-percent going to be reversed on appeal if the judge held onto it. When we were done, he said, "Well, I'm sure y'all are right on the law but I'm going to keep the case here." He was willing to eat it. Why? Because he knew that we wouldn't be able to appeal this ruling until AFTER the case went to trial, and it's not much consolation for our clients that they have a strong appeal if a trial jury hands down a $1 Billion dollar judgment against them. The judge ate the sandwich because he knew that the case would now be positioned to settle for a lot of money and never go to trial -- because the clients and their insurers couldn't take the risk. And nobody would probably ever call him out about what he had done. Certainly no appellate court would be likely ever to evaluate his decision. He was mad as a hornet, however, and we at least had the satisfaction of making him face himself in the morning by making a point to get everything on the record, which he really didn't want to do either. The hope was maybe he would be forced to do the right thing. One of my co-counsel told him, "Judge, if I'm gonna get bent over, I want it on the record." Lovely.

So it is likely that whatever law firm was first to file, they did it in a jurisdiction where the court wouldn't be likely to dismiss over something as technical as applying the correct law, and in a state where there would be no appeal of that decision until after the trial.
Last edited by wjcandee on Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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garpd
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:12 am

wjcandee wrote:

As a lawyer working on contingency, as these guys are, there's a benefit to being the first-to-file. So they do it as soon as they have signed up one or more clients. The claim is legally-ripe as soon as a plaintiff is harmed. It doesn't take much to sketch out an allegation of facts from the newspaper, which can be revised down the line, along with traditional allegations of negligence, lack of fitness for a particular use, and whatever legal theories they can come up with under US law, probably not even waiting for an analysis of the law of the jurisdiction in which the victims lived. That latter bit is important, because many states will want to apply the law of the jurisdiction in which the harm was felt, which in a suit for damages is usually where the victims lived. So, often, they'll look for a "harmed" relative in the US.



Just reeks of profiteering to me
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wjcandee
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:35 am

garpd wrote:
Just reeks of profiteering to me


Of course it is -- but that's the way it works here. A plaintiff's lawyer ("injury attorney") would say that the possibility of substantial rewards to the attorneys means that they're willing to take the case for nothing unless they get a recovery for the plaintiff, and that this benefits the usually-regular-folks victims of injury, who otherwise wouldn't have the financial resources to be able to fight against the attorneys for the Big Company. And delivering that justification is why trial lawyers' associations are usually among the largest donors to state legislators and their PR people routinely feed stories to shows like Dateline. Ever notice how, after some allegedly-horrible thing happens to someone in a Dateline story and they are at their wits' end, a lawyer rides in on a white horse and makes them whole in damages? Every Dateline story. That's not an accident; it's the result of an alliance. And over time it has shaped public perception and the rules by which litigation is conducted in the US. In other countries, there would be an investigation by the government and sorta-criminal courts would do the punishing. In the US, we have a private right of action that results in awards of damages to the people harmed, taken from the harmers. So doing business here is much more expensive than some other places in this regard, but companies also perhaps toe the line a little more than they otherwise would, if for no reason other than their insurance companies make them. It's inefficient -- and it's the reason that in many US cities if a public transit bus gets in an accident, swarms of people will try to jump ON it -- but it's the system we're given and I accept it. Do I think some tweaks would make it fairer to both sides? Yes I do. Do I have issues with the sway that trial lawyers have in the legislatures? Affirmative, along with several other groups that I think influence non-optimal outcomes that line people's pockets unfairly. But until someone changes the deck, I play the cards I'm dealt! :smile:

PS The Porsches at the courthouse usually belong to the plaintiffs' lawyers. An acquaintance of mine made the paper many years ago when he drove his to the courthouse in the middle of a trial and while driving down the ramp in the garage saw through the windshield several jurors on his jury walking towards him. He pulled into the nearest space and ducked down. He won the case, but when they made the damage award, the jury said that they would have awarded more but they knew he was getting a piece of the action and thought that his car was nice enough already. Ouch.
 
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sun Jan 24, 2021 3:59 am

wjcandee wrote:
So it is likely that whatever law firm was first to file, they did it in a jurisdiction where the court wouldn't be likely to dismiss over something as technical as applying the correct law, and in a state where there would be no appeal of that decision until after the trial.


Forum shopping is a little different with regard to suits against Boeing because they are always subject to jurisdiction (and cannot get out of) state court in Cook County. It boggles my mind that they didn’t think about this before they moved — surely the cost of dealing with that court system is a not inconsequential fraction of whatever incentives they received, not to mention the verdict risk.
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wjcandee
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:20 am

Cubsrule wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
So it is likely that whatever law firm was first to file, they did it in a jurisdiction where the court wouldn't be likely to dismiss over something as technical as applying the correct law, and in a state where there would be no appeal of that decision until after the trial.


Forum shopping is a little different with regard to suits against Boeing because they are always subject to jurisdiction (and cannot get out of) state court in Cook County. It boggles my mind that they didn’t think about this before they moved — surely the cost of dealing with that court system is a not inconsequential fraction of whatever incentives they received, not to mention the verdict risk.


Good point! But if some plaintiff's lawyer could get them as a defendant into a couple of counties I can think of in Texas, they'd be even worse off. Although I agree that their insurance companies probably weren't consulted before they moved to Cook County. That decision was made at the E-suite level (for "Ego"), not for any actual business need. It's "cooler" now to be in Seattle than it was when they moved, but I suspect that some C-suite denziens find even the Second City to be ever so banal and déclassé. Fortunately, they weren't dumb enough to move to my hometown.
 
sealevel
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:19 am

Ok, so back on topic - the cvr module still not found, has there been any other crash where the module separated from its pinger? They are built to withstand 100+ g's correct? A faulty/modified unit? And isn't the auto throttle noise just that, the aircraft was in somewhat level flight, 3+ seconds later its a lawn dart into the sea, how in the heck does an auto throttle issue cause that?
 
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zeke
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:31 am

sealevel wrote:
Ok, so back on topic - the cvr module still not found, has there been any other crash where the module separated from its pinger? They are built to withstand 100+ g's correct? A faulty/modified unit? And isn't the auto throttle noise just that, the aircraft was in somewhat level flight, 3+ seconds later its a lawn dart into the sea, how in the heck does an auto throttle issue cause that?


Yes lots, and the who unit is not designed to withstand that load, just the memory module.
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Aesma
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:25 am

EAARbrat wrote:
hivue wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Any airliner rudder is strong enough to rip the tail off if mishandled... Rudders are certified for one full deflection, and back. Swinging the rudder back and forth repeatedly like the FO on AA587 did is a no-no.


My recollection is that there actually were dropped jaws all over the aviation industry after AA587 at the suggestion that a puny little old pilot could tear the tail off of a large airliner just pushing on the rudder pedals. I believe they determined that the FO wound up commanding rudder deflection in one direction while the airplane was still yawing back after his previous deflection in the other direction. The resulting forces on the rudder caused the design limits for the vertical tail to be exceeded. This was not a situation anyone had previously anticipated.


A tail should never have broken off because of rudder use unless of mechanical failure unrelated to pilot control or because of loss of control. The limiters should have been designed to handle eliminate that possibipity. Was he a knucklehead for being overly aggressive sure but that's where it should have ended with an even regain of normal un-upset flight and arrival at destination not a big hole in the ground. With FBW this should be tripley so.


Are you saying the pilot shouldn't have final control ? That might upset a lot of "pro-Boeing" pilots.
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Exeiowa
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:54 pm

At this point it seems that we will not be getting any additional information release until they find CVR, I am wondering at what point if they do not have it they will say something. Its almost like they already now what happened, but do not want to say.
 
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:00 pm

Exeiowa wrote:
At this point it seems that we will not be getting any additional information release until they find CVR, I am wondering at what point if they do not have it they will say something. Its almost like they already now what happened, but do not want to say.


There is a preliminary factual report being prepared. I would expect that to be made public in around a week or so.
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sealevel
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:54 pm

zeke wrote:
sealevel wrote:
Ok, so back on topic - the cvr module still not found, has there been any other crash where the module separated from its pinger? They are built to withstand 100+ g's correct? A faulty/modified unit? And isn't the auto throttle noise just that, the aircraft was in somewhat level flight, 3+ seconds later its a lawn dart into the sea, how in the heck does an auto throttle issue cause that?


Yes lots, and the who unit is not designed to withstand that load, just the memory module.


Sorry, list the crashes where that has happened, it is not lots.
 
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zeke
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:50 am

sealevel wrote:

Sorry, list the crashes where that has happened, it is not lots.


It does happen in high impact crashes, for example have a look at this 735 crash they have a photo of the memory module on page 69.

https://reports.aviation-safety.net/201 ... VQ-BBN.pdf

Under the design requirements the only the memory module needs to be crash proof, the base of the device contains interface cards to the aircraft, those cards are superfluous after a crash as there is no further data to store, they are designed to be sacrificial.

Image

From https://aviation.stackexchange.com/ques ... piration-d
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CBRboy
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:49 am

zeke wrote:

It does happen in high impact crashes, for example have a look at this 735 crash they have a photo of the memory module on page 69.

https://reports.aviation-safety.net/201 ... VQ-BBN.pdf


I think perhaps you mean page 79, Zeke? After a lot of scrolling I think that must be it.
 
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:15 pm

sealevel wrote:
Ok, so back on topic - the cvr module still not found, has there been any other crash where the module separated from its pinger? They are built to withstand 100+ g's correct? A faulty/modified unit? And isn't the auto throttle noise just that, the aircraft was in somewhat level flight, 3+ seconds later its a lawn dart into the sea, how in the heck does an auto throttle issue cause that?


If I understand the prevailing theory (as shown in other similar crashes), the imbalance in thrust causes a slow turn/roll which, un-noticed by the pilots, eventually results in an upset, from which they don't recover.

The track shown in this crash would (in theory) support that, with the slow turn to the right (compared to other departing flights).

Eventually, the lack of situational awareness causes the slow turn/roll to become an actual stall and upset, as the plane basically rolls over and dives.

(not a pilot, and I assume anything wrong above will be corrected by others)
 
djm18
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:13 am

Question for pilots related to the above: If you are on a climb out in IFR how would you notice a slight to moderate thrust imbalance? And how severe would it need to be to eventually take the plane into roll and upset?
 
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zeke
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:34 am

djm18 wrote:
Question for pilots related to the above: If you are on a climb out in IFR how would you notice a slight to moderate thrust imbalance? And how severe would it need to be to eventually take the plane into roll and upset?


The only real way is the instruments, aircraft like the 735 had hydromechanical fuel control units so it is common for the throttles to be split (one further advanced than the other) delivering the same thrust. This means symmetrical throttle position does not necessarily translate to the symmetrical thrust.

With low slung wing mounted engines, the secondary effect of an increase in thrust is pitch up, the secondary effect of asymmetrical thrust it a pitch up on one side, and yaw. The secondary effect of yaw is roll.

The 735 does not have a true 3 axis autopilot, in yaw they have a yaw dampener which the autopilot can control, that does not have the same authority as the rudder.
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BEG2IAH
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:44 am

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/indonesi ... 47081.html

Excerpt: JAKARTA, Feb 2 (Reuters) - Indonesia's air accident investigator has sent five components of a crashed Sriwijaya Air jet to the United States and Britain for examination, including the autothrottle that controls engine power automatically, the agency's head said on Tuesday.

The 26-year-old Boeing Co 737-500 crashed into the Java Sea shortly after takeoff from Jakarta on Jan. 9, killing all 62 people on board.

National Transportation Safety Committee (KNKT) Chief Soerjanto Tjahjono told Reuters the components had been sent for examination to help find out why an autothrottle parameter had changed. He did not identify the other parts.
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:29 am

From the head of the NTSC -

"According to data from the joint SAR team, the debris was scattered over an area of ​​80 meters and a length of 110 meters at a depth of 16-23 meters. Parts of the aircraft were found in the form of aircraft instruments in the cockpit, several parts of the main wheels, parts of the wings, engine parts, passenger cabin parts, and the tail, these parts represent all parts of the aircraft from front to back." said Soerjanto during his presentation.

"The area of ​​distribution found from the front to the rear is consistent with the evidence that the plane did not experience an explosion before hitting the water, so some say that the plane broke above the air is not true. The plane crashed completely into the water, nothing broke in the air." he said.

"The findings on the aircraft turbine show the consistency that the engine is still on before the plane hits the water, this is an indication that the turbines fall out. This indicates that when there is an impact on water, the engine is still rotating," he said.

Source - https://news.detik.com/berita/d-5359792 ... jelasannya
 
TheWorm123
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:18 pm

ucantbme wrote:
From the head of the NTSC -

"According to data from the joint SAR team, the debris was scattered over an area of ​​80 meters and a length of 110 meters at a depth of 16-23 meters. Parts of the aircraft were found in the form of aircraft instruments in the cockpit, several parts of the main wheels, parts of the wings, engine parts, passenger cabin parts, and the tail, these parts represent all parts of the aircraft from front to back." said Soerjanto during his presentation.

"The area of ​​distribution found from the front to the rear is consistent with the evidence that the plane did not experience an explosion before hitting the water, so some say that the plane broke above the air is not true. The plane crashed completely into the water, nothing broke in the air." he said.

"The findings on the aircraft turbine show the consistency that the engine is still on before the plane hits the water, this is an indication that the turbines fall out. This indicates that when there is an impact on water, the engine is still rotating," he said.

Source - https://news.detik.com/berita/d-5359792 ... jelasannya

That completely rules out of the mid air breakup theory then, though what we already knew about the compact debri field said that already.
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LTC8K6
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:07 am

http://avherald.com/h?article=4e18553c&opt=0

On Feb 2nd 2021 the KNKT chairman said in a press conference, that reports distributed by western media about a possible autothrottle malfunction causing asymmetric thrust are wrong. However, the KNKT sent 5 pieces of debris, including the autothrottle unit (but not identifying the other parts), to the USA and UK for further examination stating they want to find out why an autothrottle parameter changed. He re-iterated they don't know why that parameter changed and need confirmation from the parts sent to the USA and UK and the CVR. The maritime search for the CVR is still ongoing.

On Feb 3rd 2021 Indonesia's Transport Minister and the chairman of the KNKT held a meeting in preparation for an upcoming hearing before Indonesia's parliament. The KNKT informed the minister, that the wreckage field of the aircraft is about 110 meters long and 80 meters wide at the sea floor at a depth between 16 and 23 meters. All parts of the aircraft, from the nose cone to the tail, were found in this area. There is no evidence of an explosion of the aircraft prior to impact with the water, there is also no evidence the aircraft broke up before impact with water. Impact damage indicates the engines were still operating upon impact with water. At the time of the actual departure there were cumulonimbus clouds over Jakarta which were dispersing, visibility improved, rain intensity decreased. There were no lightning strikes around the area while SJ-182 was in flight. Lightning and turbulence conditions did occur south of Jakarta, the weather along the flight path of SJ-182 north of Jakarta was rather good however. The aircraft had reported with Jakarta Departure while climbing through 1700 feet and was cleared to climb to FL290 following the standard departure route. While climbing through 7900 feet the crew requested to deviate around weather at a heading of 075 degrees, ATC cleared them for a heading of 075 degrees but restricted their climb at FL110 due to conflicting traffic, later clearing the flight to climb to FL130. The crew acknowledged these instructions including the clearance to climb to FL130 normally. Less than a minute later the controller noticed the aircraft was turning left instead of turning right to 075 degrees and queried the crew, but did not receive a reply anymore. The aircraft disappeared from radar shortly afterwards. ATC called SJ-182 11 times without a reply, other aircraft attempted to call SJ-182 as well also remaining without reply.
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Fri Feb 05, 2021 5:11 pm

LTC8K6 wrote:
On Feb 2nd 2021 the KNKT chairman said in a press conference, that reports distributed by western media about a possible autothrottle malfunction causing asymmetric thrust are wrong.


Is it even possible to accidentally "knock" one (i.e., left) throttle forward and create an immediate disbalance that would result in a roll and subsequent dive?
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:35 pm

BEG2IAH wrote:
LTC8K6 wrote:
On Feb 2nd 2021 the KNKT chairman said in a press conference, that reports distributed by western media about a possible autothrottle malfunction causing asymmetric thrust are wrong.


Is it even possible to accidentally "knock" one (i.e., left) throttle forward and create an immediate disbalance that would result in a roll and subsequent dive?


If you knocked a thrust lever, you’d know ..... because you knocked it. It’s not likely though, as they are not “in the way”. Regardless, these engines take a few seconds to respond, so you’d likely set it back where you want before any appreciable thrust change.

I can’t imagine though, how far your head would have to be up your ass for something as mundane as asymmetric thrust to go so far as to lose control. As noted before, engine out procedures are practised constantly in the simulator.

Also noted above, the 737-100 to -500 have a two axis autopilot. Yaw is always monitored, even more so in an asymmetric thrust occurrence. The autopilot will use roll to counteract yaw .... not good. And, if the pilot is too afraid to disconnect the autopilot, then just sit on his thumb, eventually control will be lost.

It sounds like I’m kidding, but it has happened in the past. The solution? Auto thrust OFF, (gasp) autopilot OFF (louder gasp), then fly the damned airplane. I can’t imagine an easier transport plane to fly with the automation off than the 737-100 to -500.
 
OldB747Driver
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:11 pm

I would think it reasonable to assume most flight crews with any experience whatsoever would respond properly to an asymmetric thrust situation... at least those situations they are aware of.

If an engine slowly reduces thrust [or only one engine slowly responds to a thrust increase] i.e. there is no sudden jolt or rapid indication of a problem, especially while an autopilot is continuing to maintain the commanded flight path and particularly while the crew is preoccupied with close-in weather concerns, traffic/ATC, maneuvering, etc., the result could very easily look like the flight path of SJ182.

The real heart-breaker, though, is that (assuming the left engine had its thrust reduced/not increased by the autothrottle) after having the situation develop to a certain point, the most common crew reaction (autopilot disconnect whether automatic in response to a stall warning or intentional by crew to take control) would result in a rapid upset into an unusual attitude similar to what occurred with CI006 off the U.S. west coast back in Feb of 1985, the difference being they started their incident at 41,000 feet, not ~10,000. Throw in the confusion of being in the clouds and trying to make sense of your instruments as they all appear to have gone crazy from the rapid upset would not produce enough time to "sort it out".

I'm not implying the crew's action were or were not prudent - I'm just trying to give some perspective to what, from our motionless armchairs while perusing these forums might be obvious, was likely a nightmare to this unfortunate crew.
 
LTC8K6
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:05 pm

Well, given what the authorities said, I have to think there was no indication of an auto throttle malfunction.

They said that an auto throttle parameter changed.

It seems like they are indicating that the pilots changed that parameter?

Such as changing the mode.

It seems like the problem occurred when they needed to deviate around weather.

So what is happening in the cockpit during this phase of flight if you have to deviate around weather?

For example, what is the first thing the pilot would do to initiate this deviation, after getting clearance to do it?
 
OldB747Driver
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:30 pm

Understanding that no one here has the essential information regarding an investigation, as pilots who have operated in similar environments, we can only propose conjecture based on the available narrative.

Given the narrative and profile, the Occam's Razor explanation seems to implicate asymmetric thrust, whether caused by the autothrottle itself or a crew reaction to it or some other event. It rather simply explains both a slowly degrading right turn resulting in being off assigned heading, a gradual loss of airspeed and a potentially violent upset, which when discovered too late would result in an unnaturally vertical descent in a very short period of time.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:42 pm

Could the change in "parameter" mean a change in mode? As in, a change to TOGA? Spatial disorientation?

Or some kind of response of the autothrottle to an input from the FMS or at the MCP, depending on what level of automation they were using in the climb?

As I'm reading the weather, there were clouds around, but it doesn't appear that they were engulfed in clouds during the whole climb such that they had no horizon out the window. And it was daytime.
 
Antarius
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sat Feb 06, 2021 12:17 am

wjcandee wrote:
Could the change in "parameter" mean a change in mode? As in, a change to TOGA? Spatial disorientation?

Or some kind of response of the autothrottle to an input from the FMS or at the MCP, depending on what level of automation they were using in the climb?

As I'm reading the weather, there were clouds around, but it doesn't appear that they were engulfed in clouds during the whole climb such that they had no horizon out the window. And it was daytime.


Could be. Atlas 3591 was exactly this issue.

The NTSB determines that the probable cause of this accident was the inappropriate response by the first officer as the pilot flying to an inadvertent activation of the go-around mode, which led to his spatial disorientation and nose-down control inputs that placed the airplane in a steep descent from which the crew did not recover. Contributing to the accident was the captain's failure to adequately monitor the airplane's flightpath and assume positive control of the airplane to effectively intervene. Also contributing were systemic deficiencies in the aviation industry's selection and performance measurement practices, which failed to address the first officer's aptitude-related deficiencies and maladaptive stress response. Also contributing to the accident was the Federal Aviation Administration's failure to implement the pilot records database in a sufficiently robust and timely manner.
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OldB747Driver
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sat Feb 06, 2021 2:36 am

wjcandee wrote:
As I'm reading the weather, there were clouds around, but it doesn't appear that they were engulfed in clouds during the whole climb such that they had no horizon out the window. And it was daytime.

That's what I take from it as well, although they were turning away from weather so it's not much of a stretch to assume it may have been a factor. When a jet suddenly responds in a manner completely contrary to what you were expecting, being in IMC would only be a contributory cause, not a precluding one (i.e. you would not expect that "because I can see the horizon spinning around, I know how to fix the problem")
 
wjcandee
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sat Feb 06, 2021 3:42 am

Driver: Agreed and understood, but if you can see the horizon, it tends to mute that perhaps-instinctive "my instruments have gone crazy" reaction.
 
sealevel
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:52 pm

So the search for the cvr module is still in progress ?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:18 am

sealevel wrote:
So the search for the cvr module is still in progress ?


Si.
 
debonair
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:45 am

sealevel wrote:
So the search for the cvr module is still in progress ?


I am sorry, I am lost... As the aircraft was manufactured before 2003, was the aircraft equipped with an analog magnetic tape recorder or does "module" stands for solid-state memory and digital recording?!
 
LTC8K6
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:20 am

debonair wrote:
sealevel wrote:
So the search for the cvr module is still in progress ?


I am sorry, I am lost... As the aircraft was manufactured before 2003, was the aircraft equipped with an analog magnetic tape recorder or does "module" stands for solid-state memory and digital recording?!


The FDR was the memory chip type, not sure about the CVR.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:26 am

debonair wrote:
sealevel wrote:
So the search for the cvr module is still in progress ?


I am sorry, I am lost... As the aircraft was manufactured before 2003, was the aircraft equipped with an analog magnetic tape recorder or does "module" stands for solid-state memory and digital recording?!


It has the Allied-Signal solid-state CVR and DFDR. The one that looks like a small loaf of bread mounted to a chassis, or a small meatloaf. Extensive discussion and photos of meatloaf and of the recorder posted earlier in this thread.
 
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garpd
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:02 pm

CrewBunk wrote:

I can’t imagine though, how far your head would have to be up your ass for something as mundane as asymmetric thrust to go so far as to lose control


That AdamAir crew let their plane slowly drift into a right hand nose down spiral just from the slightly off center calibration of the ailerons after nudging the AP off by accident and not noticing the AP disconnect warning. Then when they figured out things were wrong, they compounded the issue by not using proper recovery methods.
If they can do that. Anything is possible
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CrewBunk
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:34 pm

garpd wrote:
CrewBunk wrote:

I can’t imagine though, how far your head would have to be up your ass for something as mundane as asymmetric thrust to go so far as to lose control


That AdamAir crew let their plane slowly drift into a right hand nose down spiral just from the slightly off center calibration of the ailerons after nudging the AP off by accident and not noticing the AP disconnect warning. Then when they figured out things were wrong, they compounded the issue by not using proper recovery methods.
If they can do that. Anything is possible

The Adam Air accident is an excellent example of exactly what I cite. While the accident report didn’t say their heads were up their asses, it came awfully close. The aircraft was exceeding 100° of bank with 60° nose down before the pilots even realized something was wrong !!! (Grab a model at home and simulate that attitude .... then try to imagine someone not noticing!)

Thousands of times a day, autopilots are disconnected, thrust levers are nudged, etc ... and thousands of times a day, pilots simply put the aircraft “right” again.

I was flying the 737 - 200/300 during the rudder incidents. As was noted, even with a rudder hard over, it was possible to bring the aircraft level again. But, you had to actually fly the aircraft aggressively ... starting with rolling the wings level using full aileron if necessary. We practised it many many times in the simulator.
 
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garpd
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:19 pm

CrewBunk wrote:


I was flying the 737 - 200/300 during the rudder incidents. As was noted, even with a rudder hard over, it was possible to bring the aircraft level again. But, you had to actually fly the aircraft aggressively ... starting with rolling the wings level using full aileron if necessary. We practised it many many times in the simulator.


IIRC, there was a pilot that successfully recovered from a rudder hard over on a 737? Did what you say, used full aileron. I think he also kicked the rudder pedals in the same direction of the hard over which temporarily released the hard over?
Any how, I agree with you, it would have to be a very distracted or incompetent crew to let a slightly nudged throttle cause this sort of crash.

I always stick up for the pilots, I find all too often they are the easy ones to blame as usually they're not around to defend themselves. So for now, I will continue hoping this crew did their best in whatever situation they found themselves in.
arpdesign.wordpress.com
 
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Polot
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:07 pm

garpd wrote:
CrewBunk wrote:


I was flying the 737 - 200/300 during the rudder incidents. As was noted, even with a rudder hard over, it was possible to bring the aircraft level again. But, you had to actually fly the aircraft aggressively ... starting with rolling the wings level using full aileron if necessary. We practised it many many times in the simulator.


IIRC, there was a pilot that successfully recovered from a rudder hard over on a 737? Did what you say, used full aileron. I think he also kicked the rudder pedals in the same direction of the hard over which temporarily released the hard over?

Yes that was Eastwind 517 (although I’m not aware of what exactly the pilots did). They were the first (only?) crew to successfully recover from the rudder hard over.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:31 am

garpd wrote:
I always stick up for the pilots, I find all too often they are the easy ones to blame as usually they're not around to defend themselves. So for now, I will continue hoping this crew did their best in whatever situation they found themselves in.


I do as well. That is why I have been reluctant to think that a mere thrust asymmetry caused a chain that eventually led to loss of control.

However, as noted, it has happened in the past.

Because, in the course of the investigation, no warnings have been sounded, the longer it goes, the more fingers are likely pointed at the pilots. Normally if some structural, maintenance, engine, mechanical or procedural issue starts to trend, then ADs etc. are issued. For the example, after the Lion Air MCAS accident, it didn’t take investigators long to publicly warn of issues even before the definitive cause was announced.
Last edited by CrewBunk on Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:42 am

Polot wrote:
Yes that was Eastwind 517 (although I’m not aware of what exactly the pilots did). They were the first (only?) crew to successfully recover from the rudder hard over.


I remember the time well. After the USAir accident, investigators were pretty sure it was a rudder hardover, as the profiles could be replicated in the simulator. This was even before the actual cause of the hardover was discovered.

The 737 was not grounded, as it could be shown that with 10 extra knots and full aileron deflection, control could be regained. They said pilots, as a rule, were reluctant to use full aileron as they tended toward keeping the ride “smooth”. But .... as we saw in the simulator, it could be done. So SOPs were changed with the increased speed and reminder to be “aggressive”.

Although, in all fairness, the UAL accident at COS was so close to the ground, I can’t imagine how any action could have saved it!

The Eastwind incident occurred during this “between” time. They were able to regain control and land safely. Then, the aircraft was quarantined pending inspection by both Boeing and the NTSB investigators.
 
pugman211
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:04 am

CrewBunk wrote:
Polot wrote:
Yes that was Eastwind 517 (although I’m not aware of what exactly the pilots did). They were the first (only?) crew to successfully recover from the rudder hard over.


I remember the time well. After the USAir accident, investigators were pretty sure it was a rudder hardover, as the profiles could be replicated in the simulator. This was even before the actual cause of the hardover was discovered.

The 737 was not grounded, as it could be shown that with 10 extra knots and full aileron deflection, control could be regained. They said pilots, as a rule, were reluctant to use full aileron as they tended toward keeping the ride “smooth”. But .... as we saw in the simulator, it could be done. So SOPs were changed with the increased speed and reminder to be “aggressive”.

Although, in all fairness, the UAL accident at COS was so close to the ground, I can’t imagine how any action could have saved it!

The Eastwind incident occurred during this “between” time. They were able to regain control and land safely. Then, the aircraft was quarantined pending inspection by both Boeing and the NTSB investigators.



I vaguely remember the TV air crash investigation programme saying that the Eastwind pilot was ex USAF, and it was was his military experience that he used to regain control?
 
OldB747Driver
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:08 pm

pugman211 wrote:
I vaguely remember the TV air crash investigation programme saying that the Eastwind pilot was ex USAF, and it was was his military experience that he used to regain control?

According to the NTSB report:

NTSB, pg 269 wrote:
Unlike United flight 585 and USAir flight 427, Eastwind flight 517 was moving throughout the event at a speed that remained well above the crossover airspeed. Thus, the flight crew of Eastwind flight 517 had sufficient roll control authority to overcome the effects of a full rudder deflection. This roll control authority was clearly a factor in the ability of the flight crew to recover from the event.
 
ucantbme
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:57 am

Preliminary report from the NTSC - http://knkt.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_avia ... Report.pdf

Preliminary report as reported by the media - https://www.cnbcindonesia.com/news/2021 ... wijaya-air
 
SteinarN
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:16 am

"The thrust lever position of the left engine continued decreasing while the right engine thrust lever remained."

Left engine thrust lever and corresponding left engine N1 decreasing. Pilots preocupied with ATC communication and bad weather, requesting heading change due to weather and then ATC ordering leveling off at 11.000 feet due to traffic. Further reduction in left engine thrust. AP disconnection followed by rapid left roll past 45 degrees. End of recording only 20 sec later.

No FDR readout provided in the report. Problems with the AT in the days before the accident.
 
Paolo18
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:07 am

Anyone know when final report due and fdr info revealed?
 
mxaxai
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:24 am

From the preliminary report above:

At 14:38:42 LT, the FDR data recorded that as the aircraft climbed past 8,150 feet, the thrust lever of the left engine started reducing, while the thrust lever position of the right engine remained. The FDR data also recorded the left engine N1 was decreasing whereas the right engine N1 remained.

At 14:39:47 LT, the FDR data recorded the aircraft’s altitude was about 10,600 feet with a heading of 046 and continuously decreasing (i.e., the aircraft was turning to the left). The thrust lever of the left engine continued decreasing. The thrust lever of the right engine remained.

At 14:40:05 LT, the FDR data recorded the aircraft altitude was about 10,900 feet, which was the highest altitude recorded in the FDR before the aircraft started its descent. The AP system then disengaged at that point with a heading of 016, the pitch angle was about 4.5° nose up, and the aircraft rolled to the left to more than 45°. The thrust lever position of the left engine continued decreasing while the right engine thrust lever remained.

At 14:40:10 LT, the FDR data recorded the autothrottle (A/T) system disengaged and the pitch angle was more than 10° nose down. About 20 seconds later the FDR stopped recording. The last aircraft coordinate recorded was 5°57'56.21" S 106°34'24.86" E

"rolled more than 45°" is probably just stated to point out that this should trigger the pilots to perform an upset recovery procedure. I would assume that the maximum roll angle is well over 45°. It appears that the aircraft went from "climbing almost normally" to "fully upset" within ~20 seconds.

It also states that the flight was not in a cloud, although they were requesting a heading change to avoid weather.
The superimposed ADS-B-based flight profile with radar weather image at 1438 LT provided by the BMKG indicated that the radar intensity level along the flight profile was not more than 25 dBz9, which means that the flight path did not indicate any significant development of clouds.


It seems that this was a good guess with the information available at the time:
OldB747Driver wrote:
I would think it reasonable to assume most flight crews with any experience whatsoever would respond properly to an asymmetric thrust situation... at least those situations they are aware of.

If an engine slowly reduces thrust [or only one engine slowly responds to a thrust increase] i.e. there is no sudden jolt or rapid indication of a problem, especially while an autopilot is continuing to maintain the commanded flight path and particularly while the crew is preoccupied with close-in weather concerns, traffic/ATC, maneuvering, etc., the result could very easily look like the flight path of SJ182.

The real heart-breaker, though, is that (assuming the left engine had its thrust reduced/not increased by the autothrottle) after having the situation develop to a certain point, the most common crew reaction (autopilot disconnect whether automatic in response to a stall warning or intentional by crew to take control) would result in a rapid upset into an unusual attitude similar to what occurred with CI006 off the U.S. west coast back in Feb of 1985, the difference being they started their incident at 41,000 feet, not ~10,000. Throw in the confusion of being in the clouds and trying to make sense of your instruments as they all appear to have gone crazy from the rapid upset would not produce enough time to "sort it out".

I'm not implying the crew's action were or were not prudent - I'm just trying to give some perspective to what, from our motionless armchairs while perusing these forums might be obvious, was likely a nightmare to this unfortunate crew.

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