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Cubsrule
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:57 pm

Sachmet wrote:
Pilots that are not busy flying can do other management stuff.


I hear you, but we pay pilots for two things: technical/stick and rudder skills and judgment. And in some ways automation makes judgment easier because it lets pilots do more thinking. If the weather is sketchy at the destination, we want the pilots (and maybe the dispatcher) to have a 10 or 15 minute discussion about whether the destination weather will permit a safe landing and, if not, what diversion point is safest. It’s a lot easier for the pilots to do that when the automation can handle the cruise for them.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Sachmet
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:59 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Sachmet wrote:
Pilots that are not busy flying can do other management stuff.


I hear you, but we pay pilots for two things: technical/stick and rudder skills and judgment. And in some ways automation makes judgment easier because it lets pilots do more thinking. If the weather is sketchy at the destination, we want the pilots (and maybe the dispatcher) to have a 10 or 15 minute discussion about whether the destination weather will permit a safe landing and, if not, what diversion point is safest. It’s a lot easier for the pilots to do that when the automation can handle the cruise for them.

Obviously right - and if two pilots in in the cockpit are not enough to fly and having that 10-15 min discussion with the dispatcher at the same time than you will have to add a third one in the cockpit. This is what original a Captain's task was on board. A B737 isn't a fighter jet where space is too limited and every added kg counts. It's money not safety that keeps the crew at a minimum. Instead of demanding more automation demand more crew. Why not if safety counts so much more than money?
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:34 pm

Sachmet wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Sachmet wrote:
Pilots that are not busy flying can do other management stuff.


I hear you, but we pay pilots for two things: technical/stick and rudder skills and judgment. And in some ways automation makes judgment easier because it lets pilots do more thinking. If the weather is sketchy at the destination, we want the pilots (and maybe the dispatcher) to have a 10 or 15 minute discussion about whether the destination weather will permit a safe landing and, if not, what diversion point is safest. It’s a lot easier for the pilots to do that when the automation can handle the cruise for them.

Obviously right - and if two pilots in in the cockpit are not enough to fly and having that 10-15 min discussion with the dispatcher at the same time than you will have to add a third one in the cockpit. This is what original a Captain's task was on board. A B737 isn't a fighter jet where space is too limited and every added kg counts. It's money not safety that keeps the crew at a minimum. Instead of demanding more automation demand more crew. Why not if safety counts so much more than money?


From a human factors perspective, is the ideal number of people in the cockpit greater than two? That answer is not obvious to me. With a two-crew cockpit it’s much easier for everyone to know what’s going on, which helps CRM.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
oldJoe
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:27 pm

Sachmet wrote :
Instead of demanding more automation demand more crew. Why not if safety counts so much more than money?


That`s quite a statement. What made aviation in the last years ( much ) more safety ? Reducing cockpit crew from three to two and bring in much more automation I would say at least. Have you ever been on an Russian airliner where up to five crewmembers in the cockpit was usual and they still crashed them !
How many aircraft`s where crashed with three in the front in the Western world ?
 
Sachmet
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:37 pm

oldJoe wrote:
Sachmet wrote :
Instead of demanding more automation demand more crew. Why not if safety counts so much more than money?


That`s quite a statement. What made aviation in the last years ( much ) more safety ? Reducing cockpit crew from three to two and bring in much more automation I would say at least. Have you ever been on an Russian airliner where up to five crewmembers in the cockpit was usual and they still crashed them !
How many aircraft`s where crashed with three in the front in the Western world ?

Maybe you are right with the thesis that crew reduction improves safety - but then lets look closer into it. Lets see what happened on a bigger scale. Market demand was rapidity rising like adding more than 30% more demand in a short time period. Now lets see a carrier (with three man cockpit crews) and the producer. The factory can increase production much faster than talented crew can be found and trained. So the carrier will source the additional 30% crew from those who have no talent and just pass the certification. If you now mix those with your competed crew you get a lot of CRM issues and accidents. Now you do the only thing left - replace the 30% again with automation. Congratulation you have proven that a 2 man crew + increased automation has improved safety!

What could go wrong? If it does - just increase the level of automation until you need pilots only for window-dressing. We already got the X47B drone doing aircraft-carrier operations and landing on that small moving strip is probably the most demanding task in aviation.

Lets come back to this B737-500 crash (assuming the most probable scenario happened):
In a wider sense it seems a CRM issue if you take the silicon pilots as crew. We have the two human pilots + autopilot + autothrottle (four pilot crew). Because two of them speak carbonese and the other siliconese the communication is quite limited. The autothrottle has a problem reducing the thrust on the right engine but doesn't even know about it because apparently it misses a N1 feedback. To keep the selected speed with a reduced climb-rate it now reduces only the left engine to an unusual low setting. The autopilot meanwhile counteracts until the ability of its controls reaches its design limits. They can't speak carbonese so they they give no real feedback to the carbon pilots that some parameters seem to be a bit odd. The two human pilots being content that the silicon ones doing the flying are busy improving the safety by discussion the weather. Now the two silicon pilots switch off leaving the aircraft in an dangerous up-set state without any communication how this could have happened. Being distracted by some issue (?) the pilots lost situation awareness and take too long the recover.

In this mixed carbon/silicon cockpit crew one side has to give way or else those kind of communication problems will lead to more accidents (like those already mentioned in many previous posts).

Unfortunately (from a human perspective) the tendency is quite clear, humans get replaced by stupid machines all over the place. We are an outdated species overpopulating the planet. Maybe just good enough for taking the blame when things go south like in this case?
 
oldJoe
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:37 pm

Sachmet wrote :
Congratulation you have proven that a 2 man crew + increased automation has improved safety!


Is that meant sarcastically?

We have the two human pilots + autopilot + autothrottle (four pilot crew). Because two of them speak carbonese and the other siliconese the communication is quite limited


Do you expect your oven talking to you and recommend a more favorable temperature for example ?

The two human pilots being content that the silicon ones doing the flying are busy improving the safety by discussion the weather


Discuss the weather ? That should have be done in the pre-flight briefing !

Unfortunately (from a human perspective) the tendency is quite clear, humans get replaced by stupid machines all over the place. We are an outdated species overpopulating the planet. Maybe just good enough for taking the blame when things go south like in this case?


This socalled "stupid machines" do everything faster than a human could ever do .
I`m not in the camp that the crew of flight SJ182 is 100% guilty at all ! Shabby or thoughtless in the maintenance department is also an option and that brings us back to the human factor . Like it or not !
 
Sachmet
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:29 pm

oldJoe wrote:
Is that meant sarcastically?

Partly - It simply shows how flawed arguments based in statistics can be. I have yet to find a mathematician using statistics as careless as all those PR experts do...

oldJoe wrote:
We have the two human pilots + autopilot + autothrottle (four pilot crew). Because two of them speak carbonese and the other siliconese the communication is quite limited

Do you expect your oven talking to you and recommend a more favorable temperature for example ?

No, but I certainly would not let it pilot a B737 neither.

oldJoe wrote:
The two human pilots being content that the silicon ones doing the flying are busy improving the safety by discussion the weather

Discuss the weather ? That should have be done in the pre-flight briefing !
Preliminary Report:
At 14:38:51 LT, the SJY182 pilot requested to the TE controller for a heading change to 075 to avoid weather conditions and the TE controller approved the request.

Also a reference to an earlier post by Cubsrule, but we can't be sure what exactly kept them from overlooking the thrust imbalance and the resulting yaw before the CVR is found.

oldJoe wrote:
Unfortunately (from a human perspective) the tendency is quite clear, humans get replaced by stupid machines all over the place. We are an outdated species overpopulating the planet. Maybe just good enough for taking the blame when things go south like in this case?

This socalled "stupid machines" do everything faster than a human could ever do .

Wow - that is quite a statement too!

When using mathematical calculations with a limited set of parameters then this statement is certainly true. They can do the right thing faster because they don't think outside of their box - in fact they don't think at all. They can also do the wrong thing much faster! They can calmly fly an aircraft into a dangerous up-set and then just leave it there for the slow human pilots to solve an issue they couldn't.

oldJoe wrote:
I`m not in the camp that the crew of flight SJ182 is 100% guilty at all ! Shabby or thoughtless in the maintenance department is also an option and that brings us back to the human factor . Like it or not !

Preliminary Report:
At 14:40:05 LT, the FDR data recorded the aircraft altitude was about 10,900 feet,which was the highest altitude recorded in the FDR before the aircraft started its descent. The AP system then disengaged at that point with a heading of 016°, the pitch angle was about 4.5° nose up, and the aircraft rolled to the left to more than 45°. The thrust lever position of the left engine continued decreasing while the right engine thrust lever remained.
At 14:40:10 LT, the FDR data recorded the autothrottle (A/T)system disengaged and the pitch angle was more than 10° nose down. About 20 seconds later the FDR stopped recording.

These marvellous bright and fast machines left the outdated and slow humans a few seconds (much less then 25s from A/P off to FDR stopped) to find out what has gone wrong, correct it and recover?

Of course you can't blame the machine because its not good (or fast?) enough to get a grasp of moral concepts. How convenient that they fail at this.
Then lets get back at those who promote and design those "oven" A/P and A/T systems, they are certainly human and maybe just too slow to understand that their work is responsible for the deaths of some many people? Lets have a look at the management (do they still qualify as humans?). Lets have a look at those factors too. Like it or not!
 
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garpd
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:50 pm

Sachmet wrote:
These marvellous bright and fast machines left the outdated and slow humans a few seconds (much less then 25s from A/P off to FDR stopped) to find out what has gone wrong, correct it and recover?


One could argue that an attentive, well trained, crew should have noticed something was up long before the A/P gave up.
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Sachmet
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:22 pm

garpd wrote:
Sachmet wrote:
These marvellous bright and fast machines left the outdated and slow humans a few seconds (much less then 25s from A/P off to FDR stopped) to find out what has gone wrong, correct it and recover?


One could argue that an attentive, well trained, crew should have noticed something was up long before the A/P gave up.

No pilot - human or silicon should ever fly an Aircraft into that dangerous state - independent of the fact that it should have been noticed. We don't know yet why the crew got so much distracted that they missed it (in less that 80s) but what we do know is that the A/P, A/T failed its duties.

Its seems to me there is a constant drive to evade profound criticism against automation by shifting the blame towards those who have little or no chance to defend themself. Hopefully some wake up to the fact that we have a general problem with reliance on automation and that this can't be "patched" away.
 
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garpd
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:54 pm

Sachmet wrote:
One could argue that an attentive, well trained, crew should have noticed something was up long before the A/P gave up.
No pilot - human or silicon should ever fly an Aircraft into that dangerous state - independent of the fact that it should have been noticed. We don't know yet why the crew got so much distracted that they missed it (in less that 80s) but what we do know is that the A/P, A/T failed its duties.

Its seems to me there is a constant drive to evade profound criticism against automation by shifting the blame towards those who have little or no chance to defend themself. Hopefully some wake up to the fact that we have a general problem with reliance on automation and that this can't be "patched" away.


And I can see folk like yourself who seem to be trying to push all the blame on the automation.
I'm usually the first to defend the pilots. I have stated so earlier in this thread. I too find they are usually too easy to blame as normally they are not around to defend themselves. But these chaps, for some reason, did not monitor their aircraft and what it was doing. Or more frighteningly were perhaps unable to decipher what it was doing. (The CVR will help with this). It is a pilot's responsibility to monitor the automation once engaged and take over if needed. For whatever reason these chaps didn't. Blaming just the A/P like you are trying to is just wrong.
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oldJoe
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:47 pm

Sachmet wrote :
No pilot - human or silicon should ever fly an Aircraft into that dangerous state - independent of the fact that it should have been noticed. We don't know yet why the crew got so much distracted that they missed it (in less that 80s) but what we do know is that the A/P, A/T failed its duties.


The fact that it should have been noticed is interesting and part of the picture. No matter what distracted "BOTH" so much they also failed their duties even in a bigger way. Flip some switches and do what you are paid for : Fly the aircraft !
I do NOT say that this would have saved them but a complete other outcome would be possible.
By the way automation in airplanes is a considerable relief for pilots and not a substitute for such, otherwise they would not be needed at all !
 
OldB747Driver
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:49 pm

Man is imperfect. Man makes machines, ergo machines are imperfect.

The undertaking of a complex task like safely operating a modern jet airplane is made possible by the proper interaction between man and machine, not the elimination nor minimization of either.

It stands to reason that while automation can and is being improved, the human element is being reduced or eliminated, both intentionally (due to volume of flying and lack of available, experienced crews resulting in designing airplanes to be operated by less experienced crews) and unintentionally (increased automation naturally results in less proficiency amongst the pilots employing that automation), and the result is trending toward avoidable accidents where the cure (automation) is worse than the disease (reducing human imperfections in operating aircraft).

As most folks here have already expressed, it is both difficult to imagine missing such a basic stick-and-rudder aspect of the flight as highly asymmetric thrust, but also possible to understand both a set of circumstances (prolonged right turn, left engine slowly reduced in thrust, aggravated by a level-off in the turn) combined with distractions (weather, ATC, traffic) that may have removed the crew's focus from where it should have been only to be thoroughly confused by the disconnect of the autopilot and subsequent rapid upset.

It's possible that if I had not had the experiences I've had in my flying past, maybe I would have behaved in the same manner as this crew. But then again,maybe the root of the problem is only obvious to me because of the experiences I DID have and, for what its worth, that is my point: If the Captain had flown long enough with a similarly experienced Captain before him/her and so on, these odd experiences would more likely have been shared, and had something similar had occurred in that chain of experiences, maybe this particular flight, instead of being an accident, would have been the incident that allowed the FO to benefit from the experienced Captain grabbing the controls at the very least because the autopilot was not doing what they expected it to do and sorting it out over beers at the overnight, realizing the trap they 'almost' fell into...

We can't know that, of course, or that any particular experience is "handed down" through the generations, but your odds that it is likely (or something similar enough to trigger a saving response) WILL go up exponentially as the experience combined with varied mixing of crews are combined and learning transferred. And that, really, is the only long-term solution.
 
majano
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:32 am

garpd wrote:
Sachmet wrote:
One could argue that an attentive, well trained, crew should have noticed something was up long before the A/P gave up.
No pilot - human or silicon should ever fly an Aircraft into that dangerous state - independent of the fact that it should have been noticed. We don't know yet why the crew got so much distracted that they missed it (in less that 80s) but what we do know is that the A/P, A/T failed its duties.

Its seems to me there is a constant drive to evade profound criticism against automation by shifting the blame towards those who have little or no chance to defend themself. Hopefully some wake up to the fact that we have a general problem with reliance on automation and that this can't be "patched" away.


And I can see folk like yourself who seem to be trying to push all the blame on the automation.
I'm usually the first to defend the pilots. I have stated so earlier in this thread. I too find they are usually too easy to blame as normally they are not around to defend themselves. But these chaps, for some reason, did not monitor their aircraft and what it was doing. Or more frighteningly were perhaps unable to decipher what it was doing. (The CVR will help with this). It is a pilot's responsibility to monitor the automation once engaged and take over if needed. For whatever reason these chaps didn't. Blaming just the A/P like you are trying to is just wrong.

Was the CVR recovered? Apologies for asking, but I have not kept up with developments.
 
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garpd
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:22 pm

majano wrote:
Was the CVR recovered? Apologies for asking, but I have not kept up with developments.


As far as I am aware, not yet.
I just meant it should help clear up why the crew let the plane get into such a state, if it is found :)
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majano
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:11 am

garpd wrote:
majano wrote:
Was the CVR recovered? Apologies for asking, but I have not kept up with developments.


As far as I am aware, not yet.
I just meant it should help clear up why the crew let the plane get into such a state, if it is found :)

Thank you
 
Sachmet
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:15 pm

garpd wrote:
And I can see folk like yourself who seem to be trying to push all the blame on the automation.
... Blaming just the A/P like you are trying to is just wrong.

Did I? all just?. You rarely find an accident that can be exclusively blamed on a single issue. Not mentioning them doesn't mean I ignore them. Nevertheless I concentrate on what facts are known so far and what my own interest and expertise allows for. Also there are already more than enough posts describing the potential failure of the pilots. I won't comment on them until either the CVR is found or the search is stopped.

When it comes to autopilots I am guilty as charged, but past experience and closer knowledge of their design limits keep me from relying on them to much. What really worries me is the general tendency of over-reliance on automation, compensating for inexperienced/ untalented/ stressed crew and bad aircraft designs. When perfectly flyable Aircraft dropping frequently out of the sky with automation reliance a decisive factor in these accidents than there is a general problem which needs discussion and corrections.

Btw. They are searching the CVR in an 25x25m muddy, zero visibility array next to where the FDR was found https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=id&u=https://www.suara.com/news/2021/02/25/201244/pakai-alat-seadanya-knkt-klaim-terus-cari-cvr-sriwijaya-air-sj182&prev=search&pto=aue
 
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garpd
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:46 pm

Sachmet wrote:
..What really worries me is the general tendency of over-reliance on automation, compensating for inexperienced/ untalented/ stressed crew ...


On that we agree 100%.
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CrewBunk
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:42 pm

garpd wrote:
Sachmet wrote:
..What really worries me is the general tendency of over-reliance on automation, compensating for inexperienced/ untalented/ stressed crew ...


On that we agree 100%.


"Reliance on automation" is quickly becoming a catch phrase in this business. But one has to understand the background ...

When a Pan American Boeing 314 crossed the Atlantic, there were 12 crew members on the flight deck. The Captain and First Officer weren't even the "pilots"! As automation progressed, less were needed in the cockpit. When my Dad flew a Super Connie from YYZ-LHR there were 5 in the cockpit. Captain, First Officer, Second Officer/FE, Navigator and Radio Operator. When he flew the DC-8 from YYZ-LHR, only 4 in the cockpit. The Radio Operator has been replaced with easier to tune and use VHF and HF radios. When the INS was installed in the DC-8s, there were now only 3 in the cockpit, the Navigator was no longer needed.

Now I fly a 777 from YYZ-LHR with only 2 in the cockpit. Add to all the above, the SO/FE has been replaced with advanced automated systems (starting with the 767). Hell, even communication is easier with CPDLC/ADS! Am I "relying on automation" or am I flying the aircraft as designed by Boeing? The only reason I can fly 450 passengers safely with only two pilots, is due to the automation designed into the aircraft.

"Relying on automation" though is well known in safety and training circles and many measures have been made to make sure pilots are still capable. My last few sim sessions were with the Autopilot declared INOP. My last Route Check, I was required to manually use the HF to make position reports!

But .... I don't think this applies in this case.

The 2 axis autopilot of the early 737s is very very basic. Even when engaged the pilots never stop "flying" the third axis. These pilots were very well experienced, not just as pilots, but also in early 737s. I am pretty sure they never "relied on automation" as that automation really doesn't exist in the 737-500.

In my opinion, the key to the solution lies in the CVR. Going through 10,000' and levelling out, they must have both been distracted. Not only did they miss that only one thrust lever came back to cruise power, (and trust me, having flown early 737s, a thrust assymetry is very obvious) but when the autopilot reached it's limits and kicked off, they had no idea why control was lost.

Using normal unusual attitude recovery wouldn't work (where you start with roll) as clearly full aileron wasn't enough, or the autopilot could have handled it. One would have to quickly assess and notice the thrust assymetry, bring both thrust levels to even .... then ... start your recovery. I am guessing by the time they realized what had happened (if they ever did) recovery was all but impossible.

So ... what distracted them?
 
F9Animal
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:44 pm

So!! I went and bought a new 2021 Sonata with all the bells and whistles. Has all these cool new features my older car didn't have, including lane departure warning. Last week I swerved to avoid an idiot that was coming into my lane next to me. But!! The system kept pulling my steering wheel the opposite direction I wanted it to go! I missed that car by inches!

My point... Automation can be a real you know what in hairy situations! It makes me have a better understanding of how automation can be a mofo! No, my car is not an airplane, but I can now understand how some of these accidents can happen!
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
smithhaddon123
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:51 am

F9Animal wrote:
So!! I went and bought a new 2021 Sonata with all the bells and whistles. Has all these cool new features my older car didn't have, including lane departure warning. Last week I swerved to avoid an idiot that was coming into my lane next to me. But!! The system kept pulling my steering wheel the opposite direction I wanted it to go! I missed that car by inches!


Is that a true story, or are you only making a (very valid) point? Just curious. If true, that would drive me insane. Can it be switched off?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:57 am

8 hours have gone by and not a single A v B discussion due to the above two posts. Congratulations, all! Remarkable restraint.
 
Boeingphan
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:21 pm

smithhaddon123 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
So!! I went and bought a new 2021 Sonata with all the bells and whistles. Has all these cool new features my older car didn't have, including lane departure warning. Last week I swerved to avoid an idiot that was coming into my lane next to me. But!! The system kept pulling my steering wheel the opposite direction I wanted it to go! I missed that car by inches!


Is that a true story, or are you only making a (very valid) point? Just curious. If true, that would drive me insane. Can it be switched off?



I would assume it was a true story. I had the same thing with my Ram pickup, i tried it out and had the same response of an unwanted steering input and shut the system off. Automation is great until it isn't. Thankfully i wasn't dodging a wreck.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:34 pm

Boeingphan wrote:
smithhaddon123 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
So!! I went and bought a new 2021 Sonata with all the bells and whistles. Has all these cool new features my older car didn't have, including lane departure warning. Last week I swerved to avoid an idiot that was coming into my lane next to me. But!! The system kept pulling my steering wheel the opposite direction I wanted it to go! I missed that car by inches!


Is that a true story, or are you only making a (very valid) point? Just curious. If true, that would drive me insane. Can it be switched off?



I would assume it was a true story. I had the same thing with my Ram pickup, i tried it out and had the same response of an unwanted steering input and shut the system off. Automation is great until it isn't. Thankfully i wasn't dodging a wreck.

My truck only does that is the steering wheel isn’t moved during a lane change, but can always be easily overpowered. Otherwise, how would you do a lane change or exit a freeway? (Sounds like a cool Twilight Zone episode).

Just like any airplane autopilot or autothrust system, it can be easily overpowered.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:48 pm

CrewBunk wrote:
My truck only does that is the steering wheel isn’t moved during a lane change, but can always be easily overpowered. Otherwise, how would you do a lane change or exit a freeway? (Sounds like a cool Twilight Zone episode).

Just like any airplane autopilot or autothrust system, it can be easily overpowered.

On most (all?) cars, if you use your turn indicators it will turn off the lane departure protection. Similarly, these protections usually turn off if there's any manual steering input.

Ideally, I suppose, all cars are fitted with such devices, since that would prevent oncoming traffic from being in your lane in the first place. Or you could add a device on your car that automatically detects and avoids obstacles and other vehicles, not just lane markings.
 
Exeiowa
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:58 pm

I am not too much into blaming automation, just want to make sure we design it better, so that when these edge cases happen, mechanically sound aircraft make it home more often. It is not surprising that early systems have limitations, we want to make sure new systems do not have these issues, and figure out how to better to deal with older systems.
 
BEG2IAH
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:34 pm

We can blame automation as much as we want, but the pilots knew they were sitting in a B735, not an A350 or B787. If I'm driving an old and clunky Ford Escort that only has cruise control and zero sensors I can't expect it to behave like a Tesla. This is why I don't understand why so many posters expect that an older design should have all the bells and whistles that the new generation aircraft have. I can't blame that same Ford Escort if I ended up in a ditch and it never warned me that I'm drifting out of the lane. It couldn't. It was my job to handle the car I know I have.
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:56 pm

smithhaddon123 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
So!! I went and bought a new 2021 Sonata with all the bells and whistles. Has all these cool new features my older car didn't have, including lane departure warning. Last week I swerved to avoid an idiot that was coming into my lane next to me. But!! The system kept pulling my steering wheel the opposite direction I wanted it to go! I missed that car by inches!


Is that a true story, or are you only making a (very valid) point? Just curious. If true, that would drive me insane. Can it be switched off?


It's 100% true! On my next day off, I am going to have to figure out how to disable that feature. I am all for technology to make life safer for us.... But this just opened my eyes to how some automation can result in dangerous situations. It really has opened my eyes to the reality of this subject.

Not trying to go off topic here, but I think this is a great example of how automation can hinder things, especially in a cockpit. My deepest sympathies to those who lost someone in this tragedy.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
wjcandee
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:09 pm

F9Animal wrote:
smithhaddon123 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
So!! I went and bought a new 2021 Sonata with all the bells and whistles. Has all these cool new features my older car didn't have, including lane departure warning. Last week I swerved to avoid an idiot that was coming into my lane next to me. But!! The system kept pulling my steering wheel the opposite direction I wanted it to go! I missed that car by inches!


Is that a true story, or are you only making a (very valid) point? Just curious. If true, that would drive me insane. Can it be switched off?


It's 100% true! On my next day off, I am going to have to figure out how to disable that feature. I am all for technology to make life safer for us.... But this just opened my eyes to how some automation can result in dangerous situations. It really has opened my eyes to the reality of this subject.

Not trying to go off topic here, but I think this is a great example of how automation can hinder things, especially in a cockpit. My deepest sympathies to those who lost someone in this tragedy.


Sounds like a potential safety issue, that I would report to the NHTSA. I think they even have an online form for this kind of stuff. If you have to fight the controls to do something that you intend to do in an emergency...very bad. If I did personal injury/auto-manufacturing-defect class actions lawsuits, I would be very interested in that story, because if it happened to you, it has happened to others, and maybe not with the same outcome. But I don't.
 
FLYBY72
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:44 pm

CrewBunk wrote:
garpd wrote:
Sachmet wrote:
..What really worries me is the general tendency of over-reliance on automation, compensating for inexperienced/ untalented/ stressed crew ...


On that we agree 100%.


Using normal unusual attitude recovery wouldn't work (where you start with roll) as clearly full aileron wasn't enough, or the autopilot could have handled it. One would have to quickly assess and notice the thrust assymetry, bring both thrust levels to even .... then ... start your recovery. I am guessing by the time they realized what had happened (if they ever did) recovery was all but impossible.


You are assuming they tried to roll in the correct direction. They could have been disoriented and rolled left thinking the airplane rolled to much to the right. That will give you the kind of roll rate seen in the data.

Also, once again, no one seems to be acknowledging that the initial report does not say when the right throttle was brought to idle, or if it ever was.

Imagine trying to recover if they never brought the throttle back.
 
ABpositive
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:00 am

F9Animal wrote:
smithhaddon123 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
So!! I went and bought a new 2021 Sonata with all the bells and whistles. Has all these cool new features my older car didn't have, including lane departure warning. Last week I swerved to avoid an idiot that was coming into my lane next to me. But!! The system kept pulling my steering wheel the opposite direction I wanted it to go! I missed that car by inches!


Is that a true story, or are you only making a (very valid) point? Just curious. If true, that would drive me insane. Can it be switched off?


It's 100% true! On my next day off, I am going to have to figure out how to disable that feature. I am all for technology to make life safer for us.... But this just opened my eyes to how some automation can result in dangerous situations. It really has opened my eyes to the reality of this subject.

Not trying to go off topic here, but I think this is a great example of how automation can hinder things, especially in a cockpit. My deepest sympathies to those who lost someone in this tragedy.


Similar thing happened to me trying to make space while overtaking a cyclist, the car kept on pulling back into the lane towards the cyclist, luckily I managed to avoid an accident.
Also when using the cruise control, I learnt to disable it manually when entering a bend in the road as the car continues to maintain the set speed which might be unsafe - naturally I might just take the foot off the accelerator for reduce the speed a bit, without breaking.

My point is that when we develop these instinctive behaviours and they go against how the automation is designed, these kinds of problems occur. It's important to maintain a "natural" progression when automating some processes and not just rely on training and manuals.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:43 am

wjcandee wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
smithhaddon123 wrote:

Is that a true story, or are you only making a (very valid) point? Just curious. If true, that would drive me insane. Can it be switched off?


It's 100% true! On my next day off, I am going to have to figure out how to disable that feature. I am all for technology to make life safer for us.... But this just opened my eyes to how some automation can result in dangerous situations. It really has opened my eyes to the reality of this subject.

Not trying to go off topic here, but I think this is a great example of how automation can hinder things, especially in a cockpit. My deepest sympathies to those who lost someone in this tragedy.


Sounds like a potential safety issue, that I would report to the NHTSA. I think they even have an online form for this kind of stuff. If you have to fight the controls to do something that you intend to do in an emergency...very bad. If I did personal injury/auto-manufacturing-defect class actions lawsuits, I would be very interested in that story, because if it happened to you, it has happened to others, and maybe not with the same outcome. But I don't.


I will do some research on it for sure. I wanted to share with others how automation can sometimes hinder safety. I couldn't imagine being in a plane doing 250 MPH, and my control imputs were not happening. Thankfully at 55 MPH, the ability to stop and get off the road is an easier option. It has opened my eyes in crashes like this.

For example, NW 255. Pulling the circuit breaker to silence an annoying alarm was a deadly mistake. A situation where automation could have saved that plane. And now we crashes where the automation helped bring down planes. I just try to imagine what the pilots saw in their windows in the last few seconds. It's heart wrenching.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
F9Animal
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:48 am

ABpositive wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
smithhaddon123 wrote:

Is that a true story, or are you only making a (very valid) point? Just curious. If true, that would drive me insane. Can it be switched off?


It's 100% true! On my next day off, I am going to have to figure out how to disable that feature. I am all for technology to make life safer for us.... But this just opened my eyes to how some automation can result in dangerous situations. It really has opened my eyes to the reality of this subject.

Not trying to go off topic here, but I think this is a great example of how automation can hinder things, especially in a cockpit. My deepest sympathies to those who lost someone in this tragedy.


Similar thing happened to me trying to make space while overtaking a cyclist, the car kept on pulling back into the lane towards the cyclist, luckily I managed to avoid an accident.
Also when using the cruise control, I learnt to disable it manually when entering a bend in the road as the car continues to maintain the set speed which might be unsafe - naturally I might just take the foot off the accelerator for reduce the speed a bit, without breaking.

My point is that when we develop these instinctive behaviours and they go against how the automation is designed, these kinds of problems occur. It's important to maintain a "natural" progression when automating some processes and not just rely on training and manuals.


Thank God you didn't hit the cyclist! That just gives me an even bigger reason to figure out how to disable the feature. Thankfully I have a few days off, and I will figure out how to do that tomorrow. Your point is spit on, and I think we are on the same page.

It is creepy how our experiences in a car on the ground could he similar to a plane in the air. For us driving cars, I find it disturbing that we aren't made aware of how these safety features work. I have to admit, my heart skipped a few hundred beats when my steering wheel wouldn't respond to my imputs. I just couldn't imagine being in the cockpit and having a similar situation. I would be curious to hear the opinions from pilots on some of these issues. Granted they are well trained on their planes, but sometimes even with the best training, I wonder if these could be a contribution to tragedy? I think I already answered my own question.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
KingOrGod
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:00 am

ABpositive wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
smithhaddon123 wrote:

Is that a true story, or are you only making a (very valid) point? Just curious. If true, that would drive me insane. Can it be switched off?


It's 100% true! On my next day off, I am going to have to figure out how to disable that feature. I am all for technology to make life safer for us.... But this just opened my eyes to how some automation can result in dangerous situations. It really has opened my eyes to the reality of this subject.

Not trying to go off topic here, but I think this is a great example of how automation can hinder things, especially in a cockpit. My deepest sympathies to those who lost someone in this tragedy.


Similar thing happened to me trying to make space while overtaking a cyclist, the car kept on pulling back into the lane towards the cyclist, luckily I managed to avoid an accident.
Also when using the cruise control, I learnt to disable it manually when entering a bend in the road as the car continues to maintain the set speed which might be unsafe - naturally I might just take the foot off the accelerator for reduce the speed a bit, without breaking.

My point is that when we develop these instinctive behaviours and they go against how the automation is designed, these kinds of problems occur. It's important to maintain a "natural" progression when automating some processes and not just rely on training and manuals.


Or, use the system as designed, and use the indicator to let the automation know your intentions. It is designed that way. It believes you are drifting out your lane, and will attempt to correct. It is doing what it is programmed to do, and as an end user, it is a support system, which is automatically disabled by using an indicator (which is cool for other road users too)... I have driven many vehicles and have encountered none with a system like that which is active (a) under 60kmh, or active when using an indicator.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:06 am

KingOrGod wrote:
ABpositive wrote:
F9Animal wrote:

It's 100% true! On my next day off, I am going to have to figure out how to disable that feature. I am all for technology to make life safer for us.... But this just opened my eyes to how some automation can result in dangerous situations. It really has opened my eyes to the reality of this subject.

Not trying to go off topic here, but I think this is a great example of how automation can hinder things, especially in a cockpit. My deepest sympathies to those who lost someone in this tragedy.


Similar thing happened to me trying to make space while overtaking a cyclist, the car kept on pulling back into the lane towards the cyclist, luckily I managed to avoid an accident.
Also when using the cruise control, I learnt to disable it manually when entering a bend in the road as the car continues to maintain the set speed which might be unsafe - naturally I might just take the foot off the accelerator for reduce the speed a bit, without breaking.

My point is that when we develop these instinctive behaviours and they go against how the automation is designed, these kinds of problems occur. It's important to maintain a "natural" progression when automating some processes and not just rely on training and manuals.


Or, use the system as designed, and use the indicator to let the automation know your intentions. It is designed that way. It believes you are drifting out your lane, and will attempt to correct. It is doing what it is programmed to do, and as an end user, it is a support system, which is automatically disabled by using an indicator (which is cool for other road users too)... I have driven many vehicles and have encountered none with a system like that which is active (a) under 60kmh, or active when using an indicator.


Really? You only have a second to react when someone pulls out in front you. Your reaction is to get out of their way, not worry about the turn signal. The system should be able to know the difference between drifting and an evasive maneuver.
 
Sachmet
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:17 pm

When it comes to automation as in general for the use of technology there is an uncritical approach best expressed in an almost religions believe in "progress". Whatever we use in the end it is more then questionable if it really make things safer, easier or any other improvement. with the pros we get the cons and I think a discussion about it will be endless leading nowhere. I suggest an easier approach:

Do we really need those automations?

Question: can a human being pilot an passenger aircraft without the use of autopilots?
Answer: In principal yes it is possible.

Question: can a human being pilot an spaceship without the use of autopilots?
Answer: I would very much doubt that this is possible in a safe way.

This is at least my way of carefully using technology. When taking the above as principal axiom of evaluating the situation things become much clearer I think. A civil aircraft that is too unstable to be flown safely without the use of automation should not be used (like the MAX) because we are more that able to produce stable aircraft. Same with pilots that can't handle the workload without using autopilots. We should either get better pilots or reduce the workload but not replace the pilots by automation.

I don't want to go much into autopilots in car because it is frankly too much off topic but for a short statement: I think it is totally insane to do this! I do understand the careful and limited use of autopilots in aviation but there is absolutely no need for it in cars. If people can't safely drive a car without it they should be allowed to do so at all!
 
mxaxai
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:12 pm

Sachmet wrote:
We should either get better pilots or reduce the workload but not replace the pilots by automation.

Reducing workload is the primary motivation for most automation in aircraft. By automating certain menial tasks, the pilots are able to focus on other tasks that cannot be automated (yet). This generally improves safety. Secondary concerns are improved comfort or efficiency.

Sachmet wrote:
If people can't safely drive a car without it they should be allowed to do so at all!

Well, in the US and most other countries it is incredibly easy to get a drivers license. Once you have it, you can keep it forever without any additional training or tests.

Hence why car manufacturers are designing all safety features with the least skilled drivers in mind. Automatic pedestrian recognition for blind drivers, automatic emergency braking for dead drivers, lanekeeping assistance for sleeping drivers, GPS units for those who can't read maps while driving, seatbelt warnings for those with Alzheimer's, traction control for texans that have never seen that fluffy cold white stuff falling from the sky ...
 
OldB747Driver
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:32 pm

Not to distract from the conversation on automated cars :roll: but there was posted a recent conversation/interview with the Captain of UA 1175 which in itself is fascinating in its entirety, but relative to the OP (and not to beat a dead horse, but to draw attention to the idea of "experience") at just past 47 minutes into the clip the experience of the crew of the Asiana 214 into the KSFO seawall is discussed.

I fear that the same phenomenon may have played a significant role in SJ182.
 
OldB747Driver
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:29 pm

A note to add relative to use of automation and the video I provided the link to in my post above:

If you watch the entire video, I think the almost unassailable conclusion about the highly capable automation of the 777 is that we would have been reading about 381 casualties and hull loss if a human pilot had not taken control.

Supporting this conclusion is, of course, not that the human pilot's actions could not somehow be replicated after-the-fact by a robot, but both from the fact that the loss of the engine happened in a manner that created so much drag and vibration that the certified single-engine data went out the window (including the best airspeed to fly it at), but also the highly dynamic decision-making required when "normal" engine out procedures were insufficient to maintain control of the airplane and the autopilot "said": "Your controls, Captain!"
 
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garpd
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:40 pm

OldB747Driver wrote:
I fear that the same phenomenon may have played a significant role in SJ182.


Which has been my suspicion from early on in the investigation.
I watched that interview (and all of Juan Brown's videos). The exact same thought process crossed my mind. 10K hours in the book is all when and good, but how much of that was actually hand flying? A few hundred maybe?
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BEG2IAH
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:48 pm

OldB747Driver wrote:
there was posted a recent conversation/interview with the Captain of UA 1175 which in itself is fascinating in its entirety, but relative to the OP


Thank you for posting this interview. It's absolutely amazing and worth watching.

I hope the CVR is found soon so we don't get a chance to delve into another side-topic after discussing meatloaves and lane departing cars. :)
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:17 pm

The interview with the captain of 1175 was the best hour I have spent in a long time. Well worth watching that. So much skill, the perfect person in the right place at the right time. As heroic as Sully, or more so. Just didn't land in as big a media market. And even with all that skill, they still got very lucky.
 
zippy
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:16 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
KingOrGod wrote:
ABpositive wrote:

Similar thing happened to me trying to make space while overtaking a cyclist, the car kept on pulling back into the lane towards the cyclist, luckily I managed to avoid an accident.
Also when using the cruise control, I learnt to disable it manually when entering a bend in the road as the car continues to maintain the set speed which might be unsafe - naturally I might just take the foot off the accelerator for reduce the speed a bit, without breaking.

My point is that when we develop these instinctive behaviours and they go against how the automation is designed, these kinds of problems occur. It's important to maintain a "natural" progression when automating some processes and not just rely on training and manuals.


Or, use the system as designed, and use the indicator to let the automation know your intentions. It is designed that way. It believes you are drifting out your lane, and will attempt to correct. It is doing what it is programmed to do, and as an end user, it is a support system, which is automatically disabled by using an indicator (which is cool for other road users too)... I have driven many vehicles and have encountered none with a system like that which is active (a) under 60kmh, or active when using an indicator.


Really? You only have a second to react when someone pulls out in front you. Your reaction is to get out of their way, not worry about the turn signal. The system should be able to know the difference between drifting and an evasive maneuver.


Overtaking a cyclist is not an evasive maneuver.
 
OldB747Driver
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:49 pm

For those of us on the inside of this industry (or the well-informed non-insiders for that matter) there is a fairly clear understanding of why there are two folks up front.

While the general public would benefit from being better informed, human psychology being what it is, they are not for a variety of reasons, among them "confirmation bias" wherein what they take from such information what confirms their own biases and discard the rest. Sensationalizing wins out over reality and, well, here we are.

People who understand [American] football know that every position on the offense or defense is critical but it's the quarterback who likely gets most of the credit when the team wins - not because he did all the work (or even the most work!) but because he was the most visible in taking action and making decisions. That's just the way it is.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:51 pm

Sachmet wrote:
When it comes to automation as in general for the use of technology there is an uncritical approach best expressed in an almost religions believe in "progress". Whatever we use in the end it is more then questionable if it really make things safer, easier or any other improvement. with the pros we get the cons and I think a discussion about it will be endless leading nowhere. I suggest an easier approach:

Do we really need those automations?

Question: can a human being pilot an passenger aircraft without the use of autopilots?
Answer: In principal yes it is possible.

Question: can a human being pilot an spaceship without the use of autopilots?
Answer: I would very much doubt that this is possible in a safe way.

This is at least my way of carefully using technology. When taking the above as principal axiom of evaluating the situation things become much clearer I think. A civil aircraft that is too unstable to be flown safely without the use of automation should not be used (like the MAX) because we are more that able to produce stable aircraft. Same with pilots that can't handle the workload without using autopilots. We should either get better pilots or reduce the workload but not replace the pilots by automation.

I don't want to go much into autopilots in car because it is frankly too much off topic but for a short statement: I think it is totally insane to do this! I do understand the careful and limited use of autopilots in aviation but there is absolutely no need for it in cars. If people can't safely drive a car without it they should be allowed to do so at all!


The situation is only confusing at this very time of transition between early automation to far more experienced systems. Yes I wrote "experience" because this is exactly what is required, no matter if it's implemented by a human or a computer. Like many others transportation system we use today, there have an rater long history of being designed to be operated by humans, because there where no real other choice at that time. This is why aircraft have standard attitude control as we know. The physic and the others life forms shows that there are many more efficient ways to do attitude control, but there require to feel and control too many data at the same time to be safely operated by a human. Humans are limited to a very narrow subset of control if the goal is high safety, there experience possibility are limited in that field.

Early automation was only designed to help the pilots. This general design for the automation was to only control the aircraft when all requirements are good, and to give up everything as soon as a requirement fail. The rational was that the early automation don't have the processing capabilities to have any decent experience outside of very optimal requirements. The way safety is handle today in the designs is mainly driven by this concept: identify what can go outside of the required conditions and wrote a procedure to give the task to the pilots. This make the pilots in the uncomfortable situation to be there only to catch issue and handle unexpected problems while the training globally did not shift fast enough in that direction. AF447 is the iconic example of that problem. This is basically where we are now.

Computer are now able to analyse all flights data since ever recorded and to automatically build experiences into simulated environment that are incredibly accurate. Such system are now able to adapt in real time to aerodynamic or structural changes. This allow to have experience massively more reliable and fast that any humans, and to implement it in a very redundant computer system. To get an idea of how big that transition will be, take for example Google translation. The system is now able to learn by itself how to translate between two languages in a matter of hours and to reach score above top usual humans in a such quick time. That kind of system will replace humans at the flying skill because there will be so much better and reliable, especially when something is not normal. I know that this sound like fiction to some, but one fact is very simple: computers are not limited as the human brain is. And now for the first time in human history, computers have the capabilities to accumulate more experiences than any humans.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
aklrno
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:01 pm

I disagree with most of the comments about autopilot functions in cars. I've been driving a Tesla X for 5 years, and use the autopilot feature all the time. Just like in a plane, it is a useful aid, but that doesn't mean you stop driving. At least in the Tesla overpowering the steering control is trivial. Just move the wheel a bit and the thing turns off, and a chime tells you it did. You don't have to move it enough to actually make the car turn. The same has been true of cruise control for decades. Tap the brakes and it is off. If you have a car with lane control you need to get used to overpowering it by practicing. It takes just a few minutes to get the hang of it.

Is the same true for aircraft autopilot? If you move the controls or throttle does it turn off?

In a car I feel much safer with autopilot on. If I look away from the road for a moment to check the map or look at what's happening behind me I can be sure I won't waver in my lane. If something distracts me for a moment I don't have to worry about the tendency to drive in the direction of whatever you are looking at. Automation is your friend if you know how to use it.
 
Sachmet
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:18 pm

just a small update I found on the CVR:
"(CVR) is still being sought. Last week the operation was postponed for evaluation. Next week, a mud suction vessel will be used," Wednesday (3/3/2021).
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... ch&pto=aue
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:43 pm

There are two cases I can think of where an uncontained failure in one engine affected another - the first is the Qantas A380 where controls for the port outboard engine were unresponsive (stuck on a certain thrust level), and I believe there's been a T-tail incident where failure on one side damaged the engine on the other side.

Having said that, the quad case I could think of was not one engine damaging another - and quads usually have their engines offset due to the wing sweep angle, so the argument is actually bogus! :-)
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
Sachmet
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Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:18 pm

In general the tendency is to optimize economics. Whatever the propaganda - cost is the essential factor in commercial aviation. It is every where else so why the hypocrisy? Sure statistical spoken it has become safer (for the average consumer) but it is also optimized into a pre-planned and boring thing that will easily fail outside of this narrow set of parameters. Take a global crisis (war, financial, economic) and you will find those new planes and the manager-pilot to be lot less safe that the good old ones!. We already are on a path toward this and I prefer four engines and a three man cockpit with pilots that can happily fly the aircraft without any automation.

More automation isn't the answer to compensate for unskilled, untalented, stressed crew or unstable air-planes that need to save a further 5% fuel so that everyone can feel more "ecological" when they go on vacation on the other side of the globe.

Aviation has had a greater share of profiting from the electronic media than many other sectors where when things go south no picture or photo goes around the world even if many more people are dying every year from the reckless use of more and more technology. Commercial aviation is under a heavy pressure to avoid casualties at (almost) any cost. Let the news focus on other forms of dying and I can promise you - no matter the improvement in automation - the accident rate will climb fast if for no other reason.

Lets hope they will find the CVR before this goes under the carpet to all the other "unclear/pilot-error" files. The folks at Boeing are rightly nervous every-time automation comes up in an accident giving the MAX disaster. Not that I have the slightest hope for any profound change in the aviation industry or beyond...
 
hamiltondaniel
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:40 am

Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:55 pm

Sachmet wrote:
Sure statistical spoken it has become safer (for the average consumer) but it is also optimized into a pre-planned and boring thing that will easily fail outside of this narrow set of parameters. Take a global crisis (war, financial, economic) and you will find those new planes and the manager-pilot to be lot less safe that the good old ones!. We already are on a path toward this and I prefer four engines and a three man cockpit with pilots that can happily fly the aircraft without any automation.


I'm not sure what this means. Are you suggesting that, if we have civil airliners flying around in war zones, automation makes it more likely somebody will shoot a missile at them?

I don't want to be reductive, but it really is not that complicated. Automation is good. In fact, it's so good, that the only times we see crashes anymore are when the automation breaks.

This is Bad. Automation should not break, and if it does, yes, pilots should be highly-skilled in order to deal with it.

Even so. We crash a lot fewer planes than we used to, because automation breaks a lot less often than human brains do.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 422
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Sriwijaya Air 737-500 (SJ182 CGK-PNK) crashes shortly after takeoff

Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:39 am

Sachmet wrote:
In general the tendency is to optimize economics. Whatever the propaganda - cost is the essential factor in commercial aviation. It is every where else so why the hypocrisy? Sure statistical spoken it has become safer (for the average consumer) but it is also optimized into a pre-planned and boring thing that will easily fail outside of this narrow set of parameters. Take a global crisis (war, financial, economic) and you will find those new planes and the manager-pilot to be lot less safe that the good old ones!. We already are on a path toward this and I prefer four engines and a three man cockpit with pilots that can happily fly the aircraft without any automation.

More automation isn't the answer to compensate for unskilled, untalented, stressed crew or unstable air-planes that need to save a further 5% fuel so that everyone can feel more "ecological" when they go on vacation on the other side of the globe.

Aviation has had a greater share of profiting from the electronic media than many other sectors where when things go south no picture or photo goes around the world even if many more people are dying every year from the reckless use of more and more technology. Commercial aviation is under a heavy pressure to avoid casualties at (almost) any cost. Let the news focus on other forms of dying and I can promise you - no matter the improvement in automation - the accident rate will climb fast if for no other reason.

Lets hope they will find the CVR before this goes under the carpet to all the other "unclear/pilot-error" files. The folks at Boeing are rightly nervous every-time automation comes up in an accident giving the MAX disaster. Not that I have the slightest hope for any profound change in the aviation industry or beyond...


In general it is to optimize safety nothing else !!!
To find the CVR would be great or is somebody not interested in to find it for some reason ?

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