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N27UADIESEL8
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:45 am

wjcandee wrote:
MO11 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
But our Gal was the best thing on there!!!

She was back in the air today, flying MIA-BGI-SVD-MIA. So a good day.


Noticed today that Titan Airways received DOT authority to operate subservice between the US and the Caribbean, Central America, South America on behalf of Amerijet. Didn't say whether it would be a 737 or A321. This may also mean the days of the DC-8 are numbered.


Or they're just replacing the constantly-breaking Doug and IFL 727s. Also, I thought you thought that the DC8 was working for StratAir? I notice that one of the Doug 727s that is flying South isn't using an Amerijet flight number, and so may be flying for whomever the Doug 733 is flying for, or somebody else entirely.

OR...what's going on is that DHL for some reason wants Amerijet to fly more routes for it. Probably price as a big factor. Amerijet doesn't have the metal to do it right now, but would love the DHL business. Maybe they're locking it in by getting subservice from Titan.


The Amerijet airframe operating Sundays MIA-MAD and staying flying in Europe for the week till Saturday when it comes back to MIA, will be replaced with ABX Airframe.

Also ABX airframe flying CVG-MIA-PTY-SJO-MIA-CVG is being replaced with Amerijet.

The daily BRU-MIA-BRU which was flown by EAT and now is done with Cargojet, heard today that will be back to EAT in March. Will double check on this.....
Fine Air flight 101 never again..............
 
CX747
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:39 am

UPS Pilot wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
UPS Pilot wrote:

Figures.... Bought Lufthansa MD-11's when the MD-11 fleet was to start retracting but passes on additional 748's. The tripping over quarters to pick up nickels mentality is strong in this one.


Y'all must love this one.

From the Fortune article about her coming out of retirement, an important initiative is: "How we can introduce technology to eliminate the people tasks?" If Bezos said it that directly, they'd be standing with pitchforks in front of Amazon facilities.

Or this about bedrock principles: "Our brand relevance—and relevance is about doing good, be it our approach to social justice, or philanthropy, or diversity and inclusion." To me, brand relevance is mostly about reliably delivering stuff at a fair price, but whatever.

Or quoting Alinsky, even if she doesn't know it -- yikes!: “A crisis is a terrible opportunity to waste.”

https://fortune.com/longform/ups-ceo-ca ... depot-cfo/

It's not all terrible -- she's a smart politician. Touch all the constituencies when speaking. But sometimes, just running a good, solid operation and being fair with your employees goes a long way to affecting all the other metrics people want to talk about.


I'm retired now. Going to be fun to watch on the sidelines. I agree with you about brand recognition. Remember this ad? That ship has sailed. https://youtu.be/J4bdiVn6NYg


It's almost as if.... being good at your business, and being professional, is the best way to run a business. What a novel concept!!!!

A small check in on our Aerotranscargo 747s who call Kazakhstan home finds all the jets rocking and rolling. They continue to ply the UK/Europe-Asia routes with great regularity. The company remains on the hunt for additional 747F capacity.
Last edited by CX747 on Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
CX747
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:45 am

Spacepope wrote:
Delta28L wrote:
DHL orders 8 more 777Fs
Atlas orders 4 more 747-8Fs


A nice chunk of capacity there as new build freighters. Continued expansion, 744Fs burning through hours and cycles much quicker in heavy use during the time of Covid, or just trying to move away from chartering transatlantic lift from WGA or ABX?


DHL has been growing their 777F empire for a while now. 10 out of the previously 14 777Fs have already been delivered. This allowed them to move away from 747s, which was a supposed desire. They also have their 777F "kabal" in place so these 8 newest 777Fs will probably end up there.

On the Atlas side, they struck while the iron was hot and landed a deal for the 747-8Fs. Locking in their ability to offer what the 747 does and getting brand spanking new metal to do it. It also gives them the ability to return leased 744Fs in a year or re-lease and continue to expand. Overall, Atlas is going gangbusters and additional 747s are very much needed to continue the ability to capture and solidify market share.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
USAirKid
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:50 am

wjcandee wrote:
UPS Pilot wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

That's UPS's loss, as their new bean-counter CEO from outside the company took a pass on them, and then bragged about it.

Each to their own, I guess.

Glad Atlas stepped up, and that the frames will be built.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/atlas-ai ... 00187.html


Figures.... Bought Lufthansa MD-11's when the MD-11 fleet was to start retracting but passes on additional 748's. The tripping over quarters to pick up nickels mentality is strong in this one.


Y'all must love this one.


Sigh, I know you like to harp on passing up the 748s, but the current Boeing order book for UPS shows 8 748Fs and 3 763Fs. Perhaps they just have what they need? Or maybe they looked at the 744 passenger retirements and are comfortable that enough frames will be out there for conversion if they need it?

wjcandee wrote:
From the Fortune article about her coming out of retirement, an important initiative is: "How we can introduce technology to eliminate the people tasks?" If Bezos said it that directly, they'd be standing with pitchforks in front of Amazon facilities.


Thats honestly something someone who didn't come up through the UPS ranks can outsider can say. The Teamsters hold huge sway within UPS. I've been kinda interested in what she has managed to get through, specifically with the peak ability for a contractor to bring their own truck to do last mile deliveries.

As for the "eliminate people" bit. Amazon has been doing it for a long time. UPS has as well, just over a longer time. In front of the HR office in Seattle's SODO neighborhood there is a UPS museum. Included in it is a photo of how they used to sort packages, which was essentially put them on a big table and manually move them around, no conveyors, no bollards pushing packages to a sort chute, etc. If UPS was still hand sorting how many people would it take? UPS likely will have to give the teamsters something for implementing that automatic labeling thing, but it'll be a tradeoff.

(Side note, that museum has a large 767 model, with a 6 ft or so wingspan.. I used to joke with a coworker that I was going to smuggle it out under my coat..)

wjcandee wrote:
https://fortune.com/longform/ups-ceo-ca ... depot-cfo/

It's not all terrible -- she's a smart politician. Touch all the constituencies when speaking. But sometimes, just running a good, solid operation and being fair with your employees goes a long way to affecting all the other metrics people want to talk about.


Yeah, I see her as more of a leading the people organization and making sure they've got good processes for making strategic choices.

I found this really interesting:

Candidly, we had lost share in the small and medium sizes. Part of the reason why is we didn’t have the fastest time in transit. So you can understand why I was so passionate about accelerating [the initiative to reduce time in transit]


That looks like they're going for FedEx Ground, since time-in-transit for the express side should be the same. If I as a retailer can get the same time-in-transit with UPS's superior reliability, FedEx is going to have to make ground really cheap to compete.

It's also notable that in many ways its better to have lots of small to medium customers instead of a handful of large ones. If you lose any one small or medium customer it doesn't cause a huge pain, but if you lose a large customer it hurts.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:33 am

USAirKid wrote:
Sigh, I know you like to harp on passing up the 748s.


You know, my big issue was the way she talked about it. I would have shrugged if she had said, "Our people came to the conclusion that our current aircraft orders in the VLA area were more than sufficient to get us through, and it didn't seem prudent to buy more of this aircraft -- although we love it -- when we just didn't need it."

That's not what she did. Like a lot of incoming CEOs, she needed to shoot something in the head in front of everybody to show she was The Boss. So her message came through as, "Our people were considering these because Boeing was desperate to unload them and we could have had them at a good price, but because my new plan is going to unload a lot of business, we didn't need them regardless of what my people were thinking under the Old Way. So I showed them all and nixed it. Because I'm The Boss."

Remember, it wasn't long ago that UPS was so short of metal that they had WGN running all sorts of flights for them, and the pilots were pissed because that's allowable in a pinch, but only if UPS is doing everything it can to get more metal on property to be flown by UPS pilots. Her solution to a rising flood of packages -- and the CapEx necessary to service that business -- is going to be to carry fewer of them. And she succeeded wildly this Peak in doing that, which crushed the Post Office.

As to Amazon, their employment has gone nowhere but up. Automation is used to help their people, and people are still the center of sorting. I have no beef with UPS using a machine to eliminate repetitive tasks like applying labels, and making people's lives better perhaps, but to just come out and say, "This is how we'll cut the workforce" was crass. And if a media target like Bezos had said it, he would have been castigated for it. Like the Carl's Jr. guy who pointed out that if he had to pay order-takers $15 an hour, it made economic sense to replace them with kiosks. Which he didn't want to do. He wanted his restaurants to serve the function they always had: as an entry-level position where the less-employable learn the basic skills to become more-employable, and usually move on or up. The media savaged him. Guess what? Turns out that if you go into a Carl's Jr. today, there's a line at the kiosks and not at the counter -- because, as he said, the machine greets everybody, gets their order right, never has an attitude, and says please and thank you. That customers are willing to stand in line for that experience rather than order at the counter...wow.
 
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747classic
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:49 am

wjcandee wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
Sigh, I know you like to harp on passing up the 748s.


You know, my big issue was the way she talked about it. I would have shrugged if she had said, "Our people came to the conclusion that our current aircraft orders in the VLA area were more than sufficient to get us through, and it didn't seem prudent to buy more of this aircraft -- although we love it -- when we just didn't need it."

That's not what she did. Like a lot of incoming CEOs, she needed to shoot something in the head in front of everybody to show she was The Boss. So her message came through as, "Our people were considering these because Boeing was desperate to unload them and we could have had them at a good price, but because my new plan is going to unload a lot of business, we didn't need them regardless of what my people were thinking under the Old Way. So I showed them all and nixed it. Because I'm The Boss."

Remember, it wasn't long ago that UPS was so short of metal that they had WGN running all sorts of flights for them, and the pilots were pissed because that's allowable in a pinch, but only if UPS is doing everything it can to get more metal on property to be flown by UPS pilots. Her solution to a rising flood of packages -- and the CapEx necessary to service that business -- is going to be to carry fewer of them. And she succeeded wildly this Peak in doing that, which crushed the Post Office.



fully agree with wjcandee :checkmark:
You see the same happening in many large companies. CEO's, Job hopping from one company to another in a very different branch, without any knowledge of the operational circumstances, no in-sight in the structure and history of the new company.
After a quick look in the books : a short term profit will be obtained (with a large CEO bonus), leaving the company behind with the consequences, after leaving in a few years time.

And yes , it was very stupid (to say the least) to not purchase the last 4 747-8F's, after the choice was made a few years ago that the 747-8F would be the mainstay of the UPS long range fleet for the next 25+ years.
UPS was in the front seat to obtain these last four aircraft on very favorable conditions
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
CX747
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:50 pm

I concur that UPS passing up on the last 4 747-8Fs is a strategic mistake. I also agree with wjcandee's viewpoints on the new UPS CEO. When I hear the type of language she uses being reported from a company I shudder.

The 747-8F IS UPS'S widebody, longhaul aircraft of choice. In a short while, the ability to expand the fleet will become second hand market only. UPS could have bought the 4 747-8Fs and parked a few MD-11s, or SOLD 4 used 747-400Fs for a very good return. New metal, replacing old metal and basically getting an asset that 3 years from now can not be purchased new. The cargo market is going bananas. Heck your competitor just bought a 10+ year old used 777F and UPS itself purchased very used MD-11Fs. The new CEO wanted to look like a bossy pants and shot down something that didn't need to get shot down.

Several years from now, an Atlas 747-8F that just got ordered is going to be flying Peak for UPS...you know the flight crews for UPS will just love that.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
LightningZ71
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:06 pm

Looking at the future prospects for UPS, should they need additional 748F units, does it maybe make more sense to acquire the almost certain to be retired passenger units that are out there and put them through a possible future freight conversion? Or, does UPS absolutely have to use the nose doors on the 748F and, as it is incredibly unlikely that there will ever be a nose door retrofit program created, they will have no use for any such conversion program, should it ever get off the ground?
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:24 pm

LightningZ71 wrote:
Looking at the future prospects for UPS, should they need additional 748F units, does it maybe make more sense to acquire the almost certain to be retired passenger units that are out there and put them through a possible future freight conversion? Or, does UPS absolutely have to use the nose doors on the 748F and, as it is incredibly unlikely that there will ever be a nose door retrofit program created, they will have no use for any such conversion program, should it ever get off the ground?


There's 2 near-new Saudia ones if they really want them, but I'm less concerned about them passing on the final 4 off the line. The 748 is the largest capacity aircraft in their fleet and does little to fit into most of the domestic and inter-Europe lines. The leasing of the 5 767s from CAM, the purchase of a load of new build 767s and buying the ex-LH 767s actually did more to add capacity by adding routes above what just 4 aircraft can provide.

What's with the sudden urge to get rid of the MD-11 here anyway? UPS's fleet isn't terribly old, and since they've been pulled in on domestic duty they have plenty of cycles to burn. A lot are Pratt powered too and there's less competition for those engines. I won't sweat the lack of new aircraft purchases unless there's a slew of writeoffs or they pass up a 777F order in a few years.
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747classic
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:59 pm

Spacepope wrote:

There's 2 near-new Saudia ones if they really want them, but I'm less concerned about them passing on the final 4 off the line. The 748 is the largest capacity aircraft in their fleet and does little to fit into most of the domestic and inter-Europe lines. The leasing of the 5 767s from CAM, the purchase of a load of new build 767s and buying the ex-LH 767s actually did more to add capacity by adding routes above what just 4 aircraft can provide.

What's with the sudden urge to get rid of the MD-11 here anyway? UPS's fleet isn't terribly old, and since they've been pulled in on domestic duty they have plenty of cycles to burn. A lot are Pratt powered too and there's less competition for those engines. I won't sweat the lack of new aircraft purchases unless there's a slew of writeoffs or they pass up a 777F order in a few years.


The two "near new" Saudia 747-8F aircraft are due for a HMV after one year storage at JED and almost reaching their first major maintenance treshold after been delivered almost 8 years ago at 23 Mar 2013 (HZ-AI3) and 27 Jun 2013 (HZ-AI4). Both will probably be low in flight hours and cycles, but both are early built, overweight 747-8F's, rejected by Atlas Air (!!) for that reason upon delivery.

Ex LH 767's ? Or did you mean the 3 LH MD11F aircraft purchased by UPS ?
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
vvgc
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:01 pm

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/ ... 005524/en/
ATSG and Air Canada Agree to Sale, Conversion and Leaseback of Two Boeing 767 Aircraft

Anyone have any insight into which MSNs?
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:28 pm

747classic wrote:
Spacepope wrote:

There's 2 near-new Saudia ones if they really want them, but I'm less concerned about them passing on the final 4 off the line. The 748 is the largest capacity aircraft in their fleet and does little to fit into most of the domestic and inter-Europe lines. The leasing of the 5 767s from CAM, the purchase of a load of new build 767s and buying the ex-LH 767s actually did more to add capacity by adding routes above what just 4 aircraft can provide.

What's with the sudden urge to get rid of the MD-11 here anyway? UPS's fleet isn't terribly old, and since they've been pulled in on domestic duty they have plenty of cycles to burn. A lot are Pratt powered too and there's less competition for those engines. I won't sweat the lack of new aircraft purchases unless there's a slew of writeoffs or they pass up a 777F order in a few years.


The two "near new" Saudia 747-8F aircraft are due for a HMV after one year storage at JED and almost reaching their first major maintenance treshold after been delivered almost 8 years ago at 23 Mar 2013 (HZ-AI3) and 27 Jun 2013 (HZ-AI4). Both will probably be low in flight hours and cycles, but both are early built, overweight 747-8F's, rejected by Atlas Air (!!) for that reason upon delivery.

Ex LH 767's ? Or did you mean the 3 LH MD11F aircraft purchased by UPS ?


Yeah, I need more coffee. MD-11s.

Looking at the last few years, they've added 10 new 763s, 3 bought and converted (ex JAL), and leased 5 763s. Add that to the MD-11s and on the non-747 side they've added 21 widebody freighters. That's no small amount of capacity.
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wjcandee
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:49 pm

vvgc wrote:
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210114005524/en/
ATSG and Air Canada Agree to Sale, Conversion and Leaseback of Two Boeing 767 Aircraft
Anyone have any insight into which MSNs?


Good find!

Most of the Air Canada 767-300s weren't owned by Air Canada. Of course, I guess the deal could be for CAM to buy them from the lessor, but assuming that they're buying one of the few owned ones, it narrows the scope. A couple of the owned ones are parked at MZJ. But I don't know...
 
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:52 pm

Spacepope wrote:

Looking at the last few years, they've added 10 new 763s, 3 bought and converted (ex JAL), and leased 5 763s. Add that to the MD-11s and on the non-747 side they've added 21 widebody freighters. That's no small amount of capacity.


But only 3 767-300's remain to be delivered to UPS, with no further orders.
Only one unidentified order (May 2020) for five (5) 767-300 aircraft is indicated at the Boeing 767-300F order list, all other orders are for FedEx 767-300's

L/N 1231 C/N 66810 B767-300F N375UP UNITED PARCEL SERVICE (VR303) will be delivered in this or next month.
The line numbers of the last two are not known yet :
L/N xxxxx C/N 66811 B767-300F N376UP UNITED PARCEL SERVICE (VR304)
L/N xxxxx C/N 66812 B767-300F N377UP UNITED PARCEL SERVICE (VR305)
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:23 pm

747classic wrote:
Spacepope wrote:

Looking at the last few years, they've added 10 new 763s, 3 bought and converted (ex JAL), and leased 5 763s. Add that to the MD-11s and on the non-747 side they've added 21 widebody freighters. That's no small amount of capacity.


But only 3 767-300's remain to be delivered to UPS, with no further orders.
Only one unidentified order (May 2020) for five (5) 767-300 aircraft is indicated at the Boeing 767-300F order list, all other orders are for FedEx 767-300's

L/N 1231 C/N 66810 B767-300F N375UP UNITED PARCEL SERVICE (VR303) will be delivered in this or next month.
The line numbers of the last two are not known yet :
L/N xxxxx C/N 66811 B767-300F N376UP UNITED PARCEL SERVICE (VR304)
L/N xxxxx C/N 66812 B767-300F N377UP UNITED PARCEL SERVICE (VR305)


So that puts us at 24 new (to them) non-747 widebodies in 3 years and no retirements. Not bad. I'm sure if UPS needs more lift it will surely order them, and we'll probably see something once the last of this batch is delivered in coming months.
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UPS Pilot
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:06 pm

Sigh, I know you like to harp on passing up the 748s, but the current Boeing order book for UPS shows 8 748Fs and 3 763Fs. Perhaps they just have what they need? Or maybe they looked at the 744 passenger retirements and are comfortable that enough frames will be out there for conversion if they need it?


The used Cargolux birds, the 2 Bigtops (400 p2f) and a some of MD-11’s are junk in the system. The MD-11’s were to be pulled back to domestic routes. The 748’s were needed period.
 
CX747
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:44 am

Anyone else here seeing that National's N729CA, the last of the 7+ year sleepers was scheduled to operate MCO-ANC on 1/12/21?

It would be nice to see this jet complete the, "rejuvenation" cycle.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
CX747
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:53 am

Our favorite DC-8F traveled MIA-MGA-MIA today and currently rests in my transient home away from home Miami.

Also, the recent DHL order for 8 777Fs included options for 4 aircraft. So we are looking at a possible fleet of 26 777Fs upon completion of DHL's first (2) 777 orders.

Not too shabby.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
wjcandee
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:59 am

CX747 wrote:
Anyone else here seeing that National's N729CA, the last of the 7+ year sleepers was scheduled to operate MCO-ANC on 1/12/21?

It would be nice to see this jet complete the, "rejuvenation" cycle.


It would! I did not see it scheduled to fly out. Every time I have looked, it is just "still there" in MCO. Nice to know that they were at least planning it the other day. Good start.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:01 am

CX747 wrote:
Our favorite DC-8F traveled MIA-MGA-MIA today.


Yay! I hadn't done my "rounds" yet today. Glad to see she is still moving! It would be great if this turned into a longer-term thing, and maybe they brought the other one up and added a second. More work equals more revenue, which equals more ability to keep her running reliably, which maybe equals more work!
 
CX747
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:29 am

wjcandee wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Our favorite DC-8F traveled MIA-MGA-MIA today.


Yay! I hadn't done my "rounds" yet today. Glad to see she is still moving! It would be great if this turned into a longer-term thing, and maybe they brought the other one up and added a second. More work equals more revenue, which equals more ability to keep her running reliably, which maybe equals more work!


It would indeed be nice to see both DC-8s running routes out of MIA to warm and sunny destinations. There are worse aircraft/routes to bid!

Does anyone know the current # of DC-8Fs that are available to be awoken from a desert slumber?

I hope the earlier thought that Titan's A321P2F could potentially come and replace the DC-8 has no grounding in reality.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
wjcandee
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:42 am

I was writing a little summary of Our Gal's capabilities, which are pretty-impressive. 88,000lbf of quiet-enough CFM thrust, which lets her lift one fewer 88x125 pallet (but more weight) than a 762, and fly it a couple hundred miles further at max load than a 762, with a higher service-ceiling and about 32 mph faster cruise than a 762. I get that the economics of 2 fewer engines and 1 less crew makes the 762 economically-superior, but man the DC8-73 is one fine-performing aircraft.

I have also been thinking about Caneman recently. Last I heard he was with the FAA in California, so naturally he took down that pretty-funny comedic Youtube video of him flying an Arrow DC8 like the confident Freight Dawg that he was, being so stoked about all the free FOOD that LEE (copilot) snuck out of the hotel along with his COFFEE CUP, and showing us the nasty BLUE JUICE in the lav (his inflections were hilarious, as was him looking up and saying "Looks like we're going pretty FAST."). For those that don't know, this was a guy who, due to a childhood disability, was told he might never walk, but instead willed himself to do so and could walk with a cane. He got a waiver from the FAA to fly, and was a DC8 captain for Emery before they went under (in which he got royally screwed financially, lost his house and family, etc.), so he tried comedy while flying as a DC8 captain for Big A. Word was that his crewmembers loved him because he was an enormous personality and a stellar stick-and-rudder pilot, but he became disillusioned with the $$ and working conditions and inability to crack the comedy circuit (he was funny, but that's a tough living, too), so he joined the FAA. Scott Krantz was his name.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:27 am

wjcandee wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
Sigh, I know you like to harp on passing up the 748s.


You know, my big issue was the way she talked about it. I would have shrugged if she had said, "Our people came to the conclusion that our current aircraft orders in the VLA area were more than sufficient to get us through, and it didn't seem prudent to buy more of this aircraft -- although we love it -- when we just didn't need it."

That's not what she did. Like a lot of incoming CEOs, she needed to shoot something in the head in front of everybody to show she was The Boss. So her message came through as, "Our people were considering these because Boeing was desperate to unload them and we could have had them at a good price, but because my new plan is going to unload a lot of business, we didn't need them regardless of what my people were thinking under the Old Way. So I showed them all and nixed it. Because I'm The Boss."


I'm not quite sure thats what she said and how she said it. From Bloomberg (If you don't have a subscription, use your browser's reader mode to read it.)

She gave the example of the company’s fleet of Boeing Co. 747s. The company pressed those wide-body jets into service to help handle the large demand for products out of Asia with fewer flights in an effort to “sweat the assets that we have.” But when an opportunity recently became available to buy more of the jets, UPS passed. The planes would have created excess capacity that UPS then would have had to find volume to fill, likely at unattractive prices. “We have not gotten the returns that we should have delivered on some of the capital investments that we made,” Tome said. “We will get the network right before we think about investing more dollars’’ in it, she said.


This reads to me like she's trying to chase yield and not volume. Full planes and trucks don't mean you're making a profit. Any idiot can fill a plane with passengers or packages, it takes care and smarts to fill them with profitable passengers and packages. If you're filling your plane and it isn't as profitable as you'd like, why buy more planes?


Really UPS is deciding that they don't want to be the McDonald's of package carriers, they want to be the TGI Fridays or Outback steakhouse of package carriers. Its really the same move that Delta made in the market of passenger carriers.

wjcandee wrote:
As to Amazon, their employment has gone nowhere but up. Automation is used to help their people, and people are still the center of sorting. I have no beef with UPS using a machine to eliminate repetitive tasks like applying labels, and making people's lives better perhaps, but to just come out and say, "This is how we'll cut the workforce" was crass.


At least in the Forbes article that started this off she didn't say "This is how we'll cut the workforce" She said:

So we’re looking at how we can use technology to automate some of the manual processes in our facilities. How we can introduce technology to eliminate the people tasks? A really good one is robotic labeling. Rather than people putting labels on packages, having robotic arms putting labels on packages. We have that under a pilot, and it’s progressing nicely.

I agree that this could've been a bit more diplomatic, mostly with a statement about keeping the workforce steady and/or growing it. Something like, "Putting labels on packages isn't the best use of our employee's time."

Ms. Tomé tenure as CEO is shaping up to be very much like Oscar Munoz's term at United. Fix and refine the strategic direction, then find and groom a successor. Its likely that how how her predecessor David Abney left, "Abney will serve as board chairman until he retires in September but will remain as a special consultant through the end of 2020, the company said." (USA Today) he was asked to resign abruptly. Like Mr. Munoz, Tomé, was a board member who was asked to take over to repoint the ship.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:09 am

Oscar Munoz had a deep background in operations and although he also had a financial background, he was primarily an operations guy, and a real people person who earned the respect of the folks who make everything run. If you asked the people at CSX and United to stand in this line over here if they loved loved loved him as their boss, it would be a very long line. But I got your point. The quote that I didn't like about the 747 was not in the fortune article. It was in a news piece around the time that she rejected them. The fact is that whether I am warm to her or not, she's going to be running the show for a while, and we'll see how it goes. I actually have a halfway decent radar when it comes to how CEOs are going to do by what they say and how they act and where they're from. But I've also been wrong before. Good luck to the UPS-ers.
 
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:06 am

USAirKid wrote:
This reads to me like she's trying to chase yield and not volume. Full planes and trucks don't mean you're making a profit. Any idiot can fill a plane with passengers or packages, it takes care and smarts to fill them with profitable passengers and packages. If you're filling your plane and it isn't as profitable as you'd like, why buy more planes?


Really UPS is deciding that they don't want to be the McDonald's of package carriers, they want to be the TGI Fridays or Outback steakhouse of package carriers. Its really the same move that Delta made in the market of passenger carriers.



That smells a LOT like the FedEx strategy when they decided to cut off Amazon.
 
CX747
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:49 pm

Ex KLM 747-400 PH-BFW is supposedly set to depart the Netherlands in the next week or two for conversion to full freighter by IAI at TLV. This would be the second 747 to make this style journey in the past two months, as ex-Virgin 747-400 G-VXLG is already at TLV and #1 in line for conversion.

747-400P2F IAI Firing Sequence

#1: G-VXLG ex-Virgin Atlantic "Ruby Tuesday"
#2: PH-BFW ex KLM "Shanghai/City of Shanghai"
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
CALMSP
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:58 pm

CX747 wrote:
Ex KLM 747-400 PH-BFW is supposedly set to depart the Netherlands in the next week or two for conversion to full freighter by IAI at TLV. This would be the second 747 to make this style journey in the past two months, as ex-Virgin 747-400 G-VXLG is already at TLV and #1 in line for conversion.

747-400P2F IAI Firing Sequence

#1: G-VXLG ex-Virgin Atlantic "Ruby Tuesday"
#2: PH-BFW ex KLM "Shanghai/City of Shanghai"


do we know where these are destined for?
 
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747classic
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:34 pm

CALMSP wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Ex KLM 747-400 PH-BFW is supposedly set to depart the Netherlands in the next week or two for conversion to full freighter by IAI at TLV. This would be the second 747 to make this style journey in the past two months, as ex-Virgin 747-400 G-VXLG is already at TLV and #1 in line for conversion.

747-400P2F IAI Firing Sequence

#1: G-VXLG ex-Virgin Atlantic "Ruby Tuesday"
#2: PH-BFW ex KLM "Shanghai/City of Shanghai"


do we know where these are destined for?


PH-BFW, waiting for her ferry flight to TLV, scheduled for January 18th, according the latest info.
AMS, Jan13th 2021
Image

Original uploaded by Niels Dam at facebook, see : https://www.facebook.com/groups/Farewel ... 730976519/
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
User avatar
Spacepope
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:46 pm

CALMSP wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Ex KLM 747-400 PH-BFW is supposedly set to depart the Netherlands in the next week or two for conversion to full freighter by IAI at TLV. This would be the second 747 to make this style journey in the past two months, as ex-Virgin 747-400 G-VXLG is already at TLV and #1 in line for conversion.

747-400P2F IAI Firing Sequence

#1: G-VXLG ex-Virgin Atlantic "Ruby Tuesday"
#2: PH-BFW ex KLM "Shanghai/City of Shanghai"


do we know where these are destined for?


If it ends up being UPS I owe WJC a beer.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
UPS Pilot
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:01 pm

USAirKid wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
Sigh, I know you like to harp on passing up the 748s.


You know, my big issue was the way she talked about it. I would have shrugged if she had said, "Our people came to the conclusion that our current aircraft orders in the VLA area were more than sufficient to get us through, and it didn't seem prudent to buy more of this aircraft -- although we love it -- when we just didn't need it."

That's not what she did. Like a lot of incoming CEOs, she needed to shoot something in the head in front of everybody to show she was The Boss. So her message came through as, "Our people were considering these because Boeing was desperate to unload them and we could have had them at a good price, but because my new plan is going to unload a lot of business, we didn't need them regardless of what my people were thinking under the Old Way. So I showed them all and nixed it. Because I'm The Boss."


I'm not quite sure thats what she said and how she said it. From Bloomberg (If you don't have a subscription, use your browser's reader mode to read it.)

She gave the example of the company’s fleet of Boeing Co. 747s. The company pressed those wide-body jets into service to help handle the large demand for products out of Asia with fewer flights in an effort to “sweat the assets that we have.” But when an opportunity recently became available to buy more of the jets, UPS passed. The planes would have created excess capacity that UPS then would have had to find volume to fill, likely at unattractive prices. “We have not gotten the returns that we should have delivered on some of the capital investments that we made,” Tome said. “We will get the network right before we think about investing more dollars’’ in it, she said.


This reads to me like she's trying to chase yield and not volume. Full planes and trucks don't mean you're making a profit. Any idiot can fill a plane with passengers or packages, it takes care and smarts to fill them with profitable passengers and packages. If you're filling your plane and it isn't as profitable as you'd like, why buy more planes?


Really UPS is deciding that they don't want to be the McDonald's of package carriers, they want to be the TGI Fridays or Outback steakhouse of package carriers. Its really the same move that Delta made in the market of passenger carriers.

wjcandee wrote:
As to Amazon, their employment has gone nowhere but up. Automation is used to help their people, and people are still the center of sorting. I have no beef with UPS using a machine to eliminate repetitive tasks like applying labels, and making people's lives better perhaps, but to just come out and say, "This is how we'll cut the workforce" was crass.


At least in the Forbes article that started this off she didn't say "This is how we'll cut the workforce" She said:

So we’re looking at how we can use technology to automate some of the manual processes in our facilities. How we can introduce technology to eliminate the people tasks? A really good one is robotic labeling. Rather than people putting labels on packages, having robotic arms putting labels on packages. We have that under a pilot, and it’s progressing nicely.

I agree that this could've been a bit more diplomatic, mostly with a statement about keeping the workforce steady and/or growing it. Something like, "Putting labels on packages isn't the best use of our employee's time."

Ms. Tomé tenure as CEO is shaping up to be very much like Oscar Munoz's term at United. Fix and refine the strategic direction, then find and groom a successor. Its likely that how how her predecessor David Abney left, "Abney will serve as board chairman until he retires in September but will remain as a special consultant through the end of 2020, the company said." (USA Today) he was asked to resign abruptly. Like Mr. Munoz, Tomé, was a board member who was asked to take over to repoint the ship.


This isn't anything new at all. UPS has always chased higher margin volume and let FDX have lower margin volume for decades. look at UPS' historical profit margins. All Ms. Tome is doing is the same as Davis did. Both came from outside of UPS and are bean counters. She's wanting to get blood from a stone right now unlike David Abney who was looking at UPS' long term future. Davis left UPS in bad shape. Abney had been with UPS his entire career and had clear understanding of the operational side. Ms. Tome does not. Its all about reducing CAPEX.
 
CX747
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:44 pm

Spacepope wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Ex KLM 747-400 PH-BFW is supposedly set to depart the Netherlands in the next week or two for conversion to full freighter by IAI at TLV. This would be the second 747 to make this style journey in the past two months, as ex-Virgin 747-400 G-VXLG is already at TLV and #1 in line for conversion.

747-400P2F IAI Firing Sequence

#1: G-VXLG ex-Virgin Atlantic "Ruby Tuesday"
#2: PH-BFW ex KLM "Shanghai/City of Shanghai"


do we know where these are destined for?


If it ends up being UPS I owe WJC a beer.


Tell you what Spacepope, the 1st round for everyone is on me, no matter where it goes!

At this time I don't have visibility on where #1 or #2 is headed upon conversion completion. (I understand numerous 747-400P2F have occurred before, I'm just numbering these as #1 and #2 for simplicity sake.)

It will be fun to watch this, as we have had conversations on "where do operators turn" for new lift to "them" in a market so flat tapped out like the 747 market is. One way would be to "make" more.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
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ottergoose
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:43 pm

N288LR, the first 737-800 freighter for Mesa, flying TUS-MIA today. Joins a pair of 737-400 freighters in the Mesa/DHL fleet.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:22 pm

CargoJet to get 5 767s and 2 777s (unclear if its 777Fs or 77W conversions). https://newsroom.aviator.aero/cargojet- ... -offering/
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:56 pm

UPS Pilot wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

You know, my big issue was the way she talked about it. I would have shrugged if she had said, "Our people came to the conclusion that our current aircraft orders in the VLA area were more than sufficient to get us through, and it didn't seem prudent to buy more of this aircraft -- although we love it -- when we just didn't need it."

That's not what she did. Like a lot of incoming CEOs, she needed to shoot something in the head in front of everybody to show she was The Boss. So her message came through as, "Our people were considering these because Boeing was desperate to unload them and we could have had them at a good price, but because my new plan is going to unload a lot of business, we didn't need them regardless of what my people were thinking under the Old Way. So I showed them all and nixed it. Because I'm The Boss."


I'm not quite sure thats what she said and how she said it. From Bloomberg (If you don't have a subscription, use your browser's reader mode to read it.)

She gave the example of the company’s fleet of Boeing Co. 747s. The company pressed those wide-body jets into service to help handle the large demand for products out of Asia with fewer flights in an effort to “sweat the assets that we have.” But when an opportunity recently became available to buy more of the jets, UPS passed. The planes would have created excess capacity that UPS then would have had to find volume to fill, likely at unattractive prices. “We have not gotten the returns that we should have delivered on some of the capital investments that we made,” Tome said. “We will get the network right before we think about investing more dollars’’ in it, she said.


This reads to me like she's trying to chase yield and not volume. Full planes and trucks don't mean you're making a profit. Any idiot can fill a plane with passengers or packages, it takes care and smarts to fill them with profitable passengers and packages. If you're filling your plane and it isn't as profitable as you'd like, why buy more planes?


Really UPS is deciding that they don't want to be the McDonald's of package carriers, they want to be the TGI Fridays or Outback steakhouse of package carriers. Its really the same move that Delta made in the market of passenger carriers.

wjcandee wrote:
As to Amazon, their employment has gone nowhere but up. Automation is used to help their people, and people are still the center of sorting. I have no beef with UPS using a machine to eliminate repetitive tasks like applying labels, and making people's lives better perhaps, but to just come out and say, "This is how we'll cut the workforce" was crass.


At least in the Forbes article that started this off she didn't say "This is how we'll cut the workforce" She said:

So we’re looking at how we can use technology to automate some of the manual processes in our facilities. How we can introduce technology to eliminate the people tasks? A really good one is robotic labeling. Rather than people putting labels on packages, having robotic arms putting labels on packages. We have that under a pilot, and it’s progressing nicely.

I agree that this could've been a bit more diplomatic, mostly with a statement about keeping the workforce steady and/or growing it. Something like, "Putting labels on packages isn't the best use of our employee's time."

Ms. Tomé tenure as CEO is shaping up to be very much like Oscar Munoz's term at United. Fix and refine the strategic direction, then find and groom a successor. Its likely that how how her predecessor David Abney left, "Abney will serve as board chairman until he retires in September but will remain as a special consultant through the end of 2020, the company said." (USA Today) he was asked to resign abruptly. Like Mr. Munoz, Tomé, was a board member who was asked to take over to repoint the ship.


This isn't anything new at all. UPS has always chased higher margin volume and let FDX have lower margin volume for decades. look at UPS' historical profit margins. All Ms. Tome is doing is the same as Davis did. Both came from outside of UPS and are bean counters. She's wanting to get blood from a stone right now unlike David Abney who was looking at UPS' long term future. Davis left UPS in bad shape. Abney had been with UPS his entire career and had clear understanding of the operational side. Ms. Tome does not. Its all about reducing CAPEX.

She’s never going to have the buy in from insiders. Abney may not have had huge support, but he came through the ranks. Tome is a true outsider, her time on the board means nothing.

Like it or not, in the UPS world if you haven’t started by loading trailers you are never going to get the respect that comes with your title. It’s a career, hire from within place.

As for the 748 discussion, Tome may have flexed her muscle but in reality 5X doesn’t need anymore lift in the category. The 747s allowed M1Fs to move to almost exclusively domestic and they don’t have enough gateways they can even send them. The 747s are reaching the same point. It will be great in 10 years, but now not so much.

5X needs more 757 type lift. Planes they can use to build up regional hubs and protect SDF’s capacity. Ones they can drop in any gateway in the event of heavy volume. Right now they’re pushing the bigger jets because they don’t have anywhere to send them
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:51 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
CargoJet to get 5 767s and 2 777s (unclear if its 777Fs or 77W conversions). https://newsroom.aviator.aero/cargojet- ... -offering/


Saw this come up. Great news for a good outfit. In the past 24+hrs we have seen a commitment to grow the "Canadian" cargo fleet by (7) 767s and (2) 777s within CargoJet & Air Canada. That is pretty impressive.

What's the consensus on CargoJet going:

#1- New 777F
#2- Used 777F
#3- Used "newly converted" 777-300ERSF

Any scenario could work. I'll throw my 10 cents in the ring with ...brand new 777Fs. Cargo is hot, companies are having decades trend setting opportunities and Boeing will be looking to peddle some new metal at a good rate, while the pax side wallows. Nobody is, "wisely" cough...cough QR, going to let two workhorse 777Fs slide onto market and the waiting line for the conversion version will take too long.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
jbs2886
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:08 pm

CX747 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
CargoJet to get 5 767s and 2 777s (unclear if its 777Fs or 77W conversions). https://newsroom.aviator.aero/cargojet- ... -offering/


Saw this come up. Great news for a good outfit. In the past 24+hrs we have seen a commitment to grow the "Canadian" cargo fleet by (7) 767s and (2) 777s within CargoJet & Air Canada. That is pretty impressive.

What's the consensus on CargoJet going:

#1- New 777F
#2- Used 777F
#3- Used "newly converted" 777-300ERSF

Any scenario could work. I'll throw my 10 cents in the ring with ...brand new 777Fs. Cargo is hot, companies are having decades trend setting opportunities and Boeing will be looking to peddle some new metal at a good rate, while the pax side wallows. Nobody is, "wisely" cough...cough QR, going to let two workhorse 777Fs slide onto market and the waiting line for the conversion version will take too long.


The actual quote is "acquisition of two long-range B-777 freighter aircraft for international routes for delivery in 2023." The converted 77Ws begin in 2023 with delivery to Kalitta. Does anyone know how many conversions are anticipated in 2023 (i.e., is it even possible CargoJet is getting converted 77Ws)? Theoretically I think new 777Fs are possible, but that isn't in line with CargoJet's history; I don't know which airlines would be letting go of used 777Fs.
 
CX747
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:15 pm

CargoJet could have saddled up with GE and gotten in line to get some of the first 777-300ERSFs. I find that hard to match up time wise as full tilt production is 6 a year. Kallitta is getting the first 3 and I figure that eats up all of 2023.

Somebody could be leasing out or letting 2 777Fs slide onto the market. Good time to maximize $$$ value but I really don't see it. Any cargo jets operating right now are going flat out. Look at the DC-8 we follow and the possible reawakening of a 727F!!! My only view on a used 777F would be a ME carrier that bought several years ago for "prestige" and now sees value in helping the ailing pax side of the house with a quick injection of cash. Not my play but then again, I'm just a yoke monkey.

New 777F as I said is my bet. IF I were Boeing, I would be swinging by every cargo carrier known to man. Cargo jets are usually used, with mileage and faded liveries of carriers past. Right now though, cargo is KING and the ability to jump at markets and make money where you couldn't 1.5 years ago is there. Offer your brand new 777F, brand new 767F to anyone and everyone at good prices. You could reap up orders during a hard spell or at least get people thinking. That thinking could lead to a 3rd hand 737-400P2F being awoken or leased...and that is still money in Boeing's pocket via support. So, maybe CargoJet jumped at a good price from Boeing on 2 777Fs.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
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747classic
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:25 pm

Etihad just sold a 10 year old 777F (A6-DDA) to FedEx, seen the financial troubles of Etihad, i can see more 777F's leaving the Etihad fleet.
The next two 777F's of a remaining fleet of five will reach the age of 10 years (end of lease ?) in 2 years time.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
N27UADIESEL8
Posts: 33
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:42 am

CX747 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
CargoJet to get 5 767s and 2 777s (unclear if its 777Fs or 77W conversions). https://newsroom.aviator.aero/cargojet- ... -offering/


Saw this come up. Great news for a good outfit. In the past 24+hrs we have seen a commitment to grow the "Canadian" cargo fleet by (7) 767s and (2) 777s within CargoJet & Air Canada. That is pretty impressive.

What's the consensus on CargoJet going:

#1- New 777F
#2- Used 777F
#3- Used "newly converted" 777-300ERSF

Any scenario could work. I'll throw my 10 cents in the ring with ...brand new 777Fs. Cargo is hot, companies are having decades trend setting opportunities and Boeing will be looking to peddle some new metal at a good rate, while the pax side wallows. Nobody is, "wisely" cough...cough QR, going to let two workhorse 777Fs slide onto market and the waiting line for the conversion version will take too long.


I will give my 2 cents on the 777F for Cargojet.

#1 will be an used airframe. They will follow what Kalitta did with the 777F. Once it's on property. It will be flown US-Canada until they get the OK from the FAA and TCCA.
#2 will be a new airframe coming from DHL.
#3 same as above.

Cargojet is already doing various sectors for DHL and they just started last week BRU-MIA-BRU daily and with 4 B-777F pending from the 2018 order and 8 more that they just order it makes sense that DHL will assign a couple to Cargojet.
Fine Air flight 101 never again..............
 
jbs2886
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:28 am

N27UADIESEL8 wrote:
CX747 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
CargoJet to get 5 767s and 2 777s (unclear if its 777Fs or 77W conversions). https://newsroom.aviator.aero/cargojet- ... -offering/


Saw this come up. Great news for a good outfit. In the past 24+hrs we have seen a commitment to grow the "Canadian" cargo fleet by (7) 767s and (2) 777s within CargoJet & Air Canada. That is pretty impressive.

What's the consensus on CargoJet going:

#1- New 777F
#2- Used 777F
#3- Used "newly converted" 777-300ERSF

Any scenario could work. I'll throw my 10 cents in the ring with ...brand new 777Fs. Cargo is hot, companies are having decades trend setting opportunities and Boeing will be looking to peddle some new metal at a good rate, while the pax side wallows. Nobody is, "wisely" cough...cough QR, going to let two workhorse 777Fs slide onto market and the waiting line for the conversion version will take too long.


I will give my 2 cents on the 777F for Cargojet.

#1 will be an used airframe. They will follow what Kalitta did with the 777F. Once it's on property. It will be flown US-Canada until they get the OK from the FAA and TCCA.
#2 will be a new airframe coming from DHL.
#3 same as above.

Cargojet is already doing various sectors for DHL and they just started last week BRU-MIA-BRU daily and with 4 B-777F pending from the 2018 order and 8 more that they just order it makes sense that DHL will assign a couple to Cargojet.


So the #s were options, not the aircraft numbers. There are two aircraft.
 
CX747
Posts: 6571
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:31 am

747classic wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Ex KLM 747-400 PH-BFW is supposedly set to depart the Netherlands in the next week or two for conversion to full freighter by IAI at TLV. This would be the second 747 to make this style journey in the past two months, as ex-Virgin 747-400 G-VXLG is already at TLV and #1 in line for conversion.

747-400P2F IAI Firing Sequence

#1: G-VXLG ex-Virgin Atlantic "Ruby Tuesday"
#2: PH-BFW ex KLM "Shanghai/City of Shanghai"


do we know where these are destined for?


PH-BFW, waiting for her ferry flight to TLV, scheduled for January 18th, according the latest info.
AMS, Jan13th 2021
Image

Original uploaded by Niels Dam at facebook, see : https://www.facebook.com/groups/Farewel ... 730976519/


Nice photo. Almost the calm before the storm. PH-BFW served the Netherlands for 20 years and now sits resting. It awaits potentially another 20 years of service for another master. Pretty near to think it is only halfway done.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
gdavis003
Topic Author
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:07 am

CX747 wrote:
747classic wrote:
CALMSP wrote:

do we know where these are destined for?


PH-BFW, waiting for her ferry flight to TLV, scheduled for January 18th, according the latest info.
AMS, Jan13th 2021
Image

Original uploaded by Niels Dam at facebook, see : https://www.facebook.com/groups/Farewel ... 730976519/


Nice photo. Almost the calm before the storm. PH-BFW served the Netherlands for 20 years and now sits resting. It awaits potentially another 20 years of service for another master. Pretty near to think it is only halfway done.


Would be a nice addition to AeroTrans Cargo, imagine adding a blue KLM freighter to the mix of old livery aircraft!
 
wjcandee
Posts: 10276
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:34 am

gdavis003 wrote:
Would be a nice addition to AeroTrans Cargo, imagine adding a blue KLM freighter to the mix of old livery aircraft!


Yesssss! I like the idea!
 
wjcandee
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Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:49 am

Hey, so FINALLY National Cargo's newest addition to the fleet, 747-400BCF N729CA flew its first operational flight from MIA-CVG, presumably a ferry, and is now scheduled to fly CVG-ANC (and onwards) shortly.

As y'all know, she the last of the 3 that National brought into service over the last few months, growing their complement of 744s from 2 to now 5. Line number 852, delivered to Singapore Airlines in May 1991. Converted 2006, she flew for Dragonair and Cathay until March 2013 when she was stored at MZJ. So she had a 6-year respite, then was purchased in 2019 by National, who brought her into service this year. No SDRs filed yet on her, so I don't have the hours/cycles yet. Pratt-powered, like the other two that have a white-based livery.
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 5176
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Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:12 pm

Skyliner-aviation.de reports Areostan has put it's 742F back into service, blasting away with JT9D power.

EX-47001 (formerly with United, NW Cargo and Kalitta)
The last of the famous international playboys
 
eightcone
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat May 09, 2020 11:18 pm

Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:28 pm

Playing with the numbers a little I don’t think the cargojet 777s would be new. Per the cargojet press release on their own site, they are raising (~$403m Can) ~$317m USD. This is to get 5 767, 2 777, build a hanger and improve ground handling, and pay down debt and clean up their books.

Using the Leeham values from November if we do (all $ in USD) $12m on the 767s and $14m to convert; that’s $130m to plus up the 767 fleet with 5 frames.

Then using Leeham values again, if they are getting 777s for $25m and converting cost $30m; that’s $55m each for a total of $110

So the 7 birds alone are ~$240m of $317.

That would leave them $77m to build the hanger and improve the ground handling, and then pay down debt. Granted they could clean up the books and then take long term debt on the 777s. But the equity offering makes it seem like the will be doing a “cash” transaction to acquire the additional metal.

Tossing around guesstimate numbers, if they only used $17m for non aircraft uses, and then the 767 cost was a constant variable at ~$130m; could they find the two used 777Fs for 170m ($85m each)?

(Edit: the $403m Can is only if all options are exercised. The base equity offering was $350m Can ($275m USD)
 
CX747
Posts: 6571
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:32 pm

Spacepope wrote:
Skyliner-aviation.de reports Areostan has put it's 742F back into service, blasting away with JT9D power.

EX-47001 (formerly with United, NW Cargo and Kalitta)


Good to see 47001 getting back into the game. It operated into Vietnam earlier today. EX-47002, another 742F is also set to spread its wings again.

Spacepope- I'm interested in your take on an angle, if you are willing to play along. IF you were starting up a cargo company today and had to choose either a DC-8-73F or a 747-200F, which jet would you go with and why?
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
CX747
Posts: 6571
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:39 pm

eightcone wrote:
Playing with the numbers a little I don’t think the cargojet 777s would be new. Per the cargojet press release on their own site, they are raising (~$403m Can) ~$317m USD. This is to get 5 767, 2 777, build a hanger and improve ground handling, and pay down debt and clean up their books.

Using the Leeham values from November if we do (all $ in USD) $12m on the 767s and $14m to convert; that’s $130m to plus up the 767 fleet with 5 frames.

Then using Leeham values again, if they are getting 777s for $25m and converting cost $30m; that’s $55m each for a total of $110

So the 7 birds alone are ~$240m of $317.

That would leave them $77m to build the hanger and improve the ground handling, and then pay down debt. Granted they could clean up the books and then take long term debt on the 777s. But the equity offering makes it seem like the will be doing a “cash” transaction to acquire the additional metal.

Tossing around guesstimate numbers, if they only used $17m for non aircraft uses, and then the 767 cost was a constant variable at ~$130m; could they find the two used 777Fs for 170m ($85m each)?

(Edit: the $403m Can is only if all options are exercised. The base equity offering was $350m Can ($275m USD)


They very well could be picking up used 777Fs or have finagled into the 777-300ERSF conversion line. Your numbers would lean towards that reality but new aircraft sales and their actual price is very rarely learned about. Potentially Boeing made a strong play to get 2 new 777Fs into a burgeoning carrier at rates or prices you can't say no to.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
UPS Pilot
Posts: 897
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:17 pm

Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:50 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
UPS Pilot wrote:
USAirKid wrote:


As for the 748 discussion, Tome may have flexed her muscle but in reality 5X doesn’t need anymore lift in the category. The 747s allowed M1Fs to move to almost exclusively domestic and they don’t have enough gateways they can even send them. The 747s are reaching the same point. It will be great in 10 years, but now not so much.

5X needs more 757 type lift. Planes they can use to build up regional hubs and protect SDF’s capacity. Ones they can drop in any gateway in the event of heavy volume. Right now they’re pushing the bigger jets because they don’t have anywhere to send them


Not quite accurate. MD1 flying was supposed to be completely recalled. Increased INTL volume and need of heavy lift, INTL MD1 flying increased INTL. We bought some Lufty birds because of need for lift INTL. We have some MD's that have some issues that may be put in the desert. The problem is SDF ramp space and finding a aircraft that would provide the same lift as the MD and maintain the same ramp space.

757 lift is also not accurate. There have been a few times that some 75's have been parked on property over the years. Volume on those routes have been heavier than 75 capacity. When Latin America opened up years ago to UPS it was all 757 flying, now its 767 flying the majority of those flights.
 
UPS Pilot
Posts: 897
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:17 pm

Re: Air Cargo (non-Amazon/DHL) Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:52 pm

CX747 wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
Skyliner-aviation.de reports Areostan has put it's 742F back into service, blasting away with JT9D power.

EX-47001 (formerly with United, NW Cargo and Kalitta)


Good to see 47001 getting back into the game. It operated into Vietnam earlier today. EX-47002, another 742F is also set to spread its wings again.

Spacepope- I'm interested in your take on an angle, if you are willing to play along. IF you were starting up a cargo company today and had to choose either a DC-8-73F or a 747-200F, which jet would you go with and why?


Neither. Maintenance costs and dispatch reliability along with fuel would eat your profits.
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