frigatebird wrote:

Interestingly Boeing found enough components laying around to assemble 4 more 747-8F's There was one available as UPS took over a Volga Dnjepr 748F NTU, and there were rumors Boeing could assemble 1 or 2 more with the components they still had in stock. Nice to see they actually can build 3 more.

VSMUT wrote:

frigatebird wrote:

Interestingly Boeing found enough components laying around to assemble 4 more 747-8F's There was one available as UPS took over a Volga Dnjepr 748F NTU, and there were rumors Boeing could assemble 1 or 2 more with the components they still had in stock. Nice to see they actually can build 3 more.

"Found"...

Nobody "finds" enough components to build 3 more aircraft.

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

bwvilla wrote:

Polot wrote:

Nose door loading, which occasionally comes in handy as Atlas does a lot of charter work.

But AFAIK, nose doors are rarely used - and for missions where they are needed, Atlas already has plenty of nose door equipped 747F. Could it just be that Atlas is currently a major 747 operator and they got these last airframes at a knockdown price - i.e. rather than 747F being particularly better than other aircraft such as 777F?

Atlas has seen revenue to up 30% in the last year. Atlas is growing and has the money to buy new planes. Atlas likely expects to fly these planes for 40 years. Given their huge 747 fleet which is aging, getting more 747-8s may fit into their long term strategy. Atlas is the world’s largest 747 operator. I have no doubt that Atlas would have gone for more 777s if the 747 price wasn’t right for their business model. Was this an opportunistic fire sale, or was Boeing leveraging that these will be the last 747s ever built which means these could be the last airplanes in the world flying with nose cargo doors in 40+ years? I don’t think we know if this was based on knockdown prices or not.

morrisond wrote:

bwvilla wrote:

Really, what is the advantage of the 747-8F over the 777F? 10 tonnes or so extra capacity but at what extra cost?

Isn't the 748F a 137.7 T Freighter vs 102.0T on the 777F?

VSMUT wrote:

"Found"...

Nobody "finds" enough components to build 3 more aircraft.

frigatebird wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

ssteve wrote:

...and machinists were fired? Not yet? (Trying hard not to troll, just curious about employment for workers on this program in light of all the covid stuff)

Yep. Triumph Group that made the fuselage panels started auctioning off equipment from its production line in late 2019, and started laying off staff at the start of 2020 (just weeks prior to Coronavirus).

Interestingly Boeing found enough components laying around to assemble 4 more 747-8F's There was one available as UPS took over a Volga Dnjepr 748F NTU, and there were rumors Boeing could assemble 1 or 2 more with the components they still had in stock. Nice to see they actually can build 3 more.

As for restarting production beyond this order, apparently Boeing hardly made money (if any) with the 747-8's they sold bottom line. So with new suppliers and additional cost involved, the price tag of any 747-8 produced for new orders wouldn't be commercially viable IMO.

I wonder if the 2nd 747-8i produced (LH NTU), now catching dust in the desert, could be converted to a 747-8F? I mean a real one, without stretched upper deck. The other way around certainly was possible, KLM did so with some of their 747-200s in addition to their 747-300 order decades ago.

amdiesen wrote:

morrisond wrote:

bwvilla wrote:

Really, what is the advantage of the 747-8F over the 777F? 10 tonnes or so extra capacity but at what extra cost?

Isn't the 748F a 137.7 T Freighter vs 102.0T on the 777F?

This is what I have and the data is a mosaic from multiple sources; however it should be noted that accuracy at the micro level is disconcerting/incomplete.
cap.volume(m3), 858, 650
cap.mass(mt), 139, 103
cap.range(km), 7630, 9000
wingspan(m), 68.4, 64.8

smart move by Atlas; they have four b774*cf's with an average age of ~27.5yrs
further they are a more likely candidate for the genx powered b764f; providing fleet symbiosis

bigb wrote:

I don’t think this is the last order for the 747 is my gut feeling.

SEPilot wrote:

bigb wrote:

I don’t think this is the last order for the 747 is my gut feeling.

It will be difficult to build any more. There are no more fuselages, and the line building them has closed.

Spacepope wrote:

bigb wrote:

I don’t think this is the last order for the 747 is my gut feeling.

With the fuselage production shut down and tooling disassembled, I’d be fascinated to hear your future order predictions.

UPS Pilot wrote:

Hypothetical situation. 767's and 777's became the standard for long haul freighters. I believe most if not all are GE powered. What happens if GE start having issues or there is an airframe loss that restricts ETOPS requirements? The 747 is going away and the MD-11 is gone. That would severely impact global logistics if it happened.

Luftymatt wrote:

Spacepope wrote:

bigb wrote:

I don’t think this is the last order for the 747 is my gut feeling.

With the fuselage production shut down and tooling disassembled, I’d be fascinated to hear your future order predictions.

Talk about being condescending. It's not an unreasonable thing to say, with cargo increasing massively.

How would Boeing build four new 747-8's for Atlas, if the fuselage production has already been shut down then?? I'd love to hear your predictions on that.

Luftymatt wrote:

Spacepope wrote:

bigb wrote:

I don’t think this is the last order for the 747 is my gut feeling.

With the fuselage production shut down and tooling disassembled, I’d be fascinated to hear your future order predictions.

Talk about being condescending. It's not an unreasonable thing to say, with cargo increasing massively.

How would Boeing build four new 747-8's for Atlas, if the fuselage production has already been shut down then?? I'd love to hear your predictions on that.

Luftymatt wrote:

Spacepope wrote:

bigb wrote:

I don’t think this is the last order for the 747 is my gut feeling.

With the fuselage production shut down and tooling disassembled, I’d be fascinated to hear your future order predictions.

Talk about being condescending. It's not an unreasonable thing to say, with cargo increasing massively.

How would Boeing build four new 747-8's for Atlas, if the fuselage production has already been shut down then?? I'd love to hear your predictions on that.

CoThG wrote:

This announcement will aggravate the Atlas pilots greatly. They want a pay raise in addition to other contract improvements across the board. They will claim that if Atlas has enough money to buy new 747s, they have enough money to give them what they demand in a new contract.

This will further deteriorate the labor relations at Atlas, which are already abysmal.

Revelation wrote:

Lockheed restarted U2 production in the Reagan era after it had been shut down since the Eisenhower era, so we have at least one counter point. I also think more C5s were produced after the line was mothballed in the 60s or early 70s.

Antarius wrote:

CoThG wrote:

This announcement will aggravate the Atlas pilots greatly. They want a pay raise in addition to other contract improvements across the board. They will claim that if Atlas has enough money to buy new 747s, they have enough money to give them what they demand in a new contract.

This will further deteriorate the labor relations at Atlas, which are already abysmal.

With pilots suddenly available everywhere, there isn't much leverage. COVID has upended the scarcity problem.

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

bwvilla wrote:

Polot wrote:

Nose door loading, which occasionally comes in handy as Atlas does a lot of charter work.

But AFAIK, nose doors are rarely used - and for missions where they are needed, Atlas already has plenty of nose door equipped 747F. Could it just be that Atlas is currently a major 747 operator and they got these last airframes at a knockdown price - i.e. rather than 747F being particularly better than other aircraft such as 777F?

Atlas has seen revenue to up 30% in the last year. Atlas is growing and has the money to buy new planes. Atlas likely expects to fly these planes for 40 years. Given their huge 747 fleet which is aging, getting more 747-8s may fit into their long term strategy. Atlas is the world’s largest 747 operator. I have no doubt that Atlas would have gone for more 777s if the 747 price wasn’t right for their business model. Was this an opportunistic fire sale, or was Boeing leveraging that these will be the last 747s ever built which means these could be the last airplanes in the world flying with nose cargo doors in 40+ years? I don’t think we know if this was based on knockdown prices or not.

xjetflyer2001 wrote:

I thought Volga wanted those last 3 747-8 they ordered??

m1m2 wrote:

"Forgive me if this has been discussed elsewhere, but will Boeing continue producing parts or are there enough in existence for the foreseeable future?"

I would think there is a legal requirement for Boeing to support their fleet for a certain timeframe. There is a warranty period (probably 5 years) on a new airframe to start with.

UPS Pilot wrote:

Hypothetical situation. 767's and 777's became the standard for long haul freighters. I believe most if not all are GE powered. What happens if GE start having issues or there is an airframe loss that restricts ETOPS requirements? The 747 is going away and the MD-11 is gone. That would severely impact global logistics if it happened.

bunumuring wrote:

Hey guys,
Two points...
Could this be the last-ever civilian order for a quad-jet? I am sure that there will be four engine electric-powered passenger planes in the future but... (military aircraft excluded of course)
Could Atlas please please please paint one the 747-8Fs into the Qantas Freight scheme? It would be so good to see a Qantas-liveried 747 operating out of Sydney again! (for those that don’t realise, Atlas currently dedicated a couple of 747s to QF service with small titles on the forward fuselage)
Cheers
Bunumuring

N965UW wrote:

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

bwvilla wrote:

But AFAIK, nose doors are rarely used - and for missions where they are needed, Atlas already has plenty of nose door equipped 747F. Could it just be that Atlas is currently a major 747 operator and they got these last airframes at a knockdown price - i.e. rather than 747F being particularly better than other aircraft such as 777F?

Atlas has seen revenue to up 30% in the last year. Atlas is growing and has the money to buy new planes. Atlas likely expects to fly these planes for 40 years. Given their huge 747 fleet which is aging, getting more 747-8s may fit into their long term strategy. Atlas is the world’s largest 747 operator. I have no doubt that Atlas would have gone for more 777s if the 747 price wasn’t right for their business model. Was this an opportunistic fire sale, or was Boeing leveraging that these will be the last 747s ever built which means these could be the last airplanes in the world flying with nose cargo doors in 40+ years? I don’t think we know if this was based on knockdown prices or not.

I'm curious as to whether there will be enough parts to keep the -8 going for 40 more years. The engines will be taken care of due to the 787, but are there life-limited airframe parts unique to the -8? -8 operators are likely to fly them until the wings fall off, so there won't be a large 744-style parts market. Forgive me if this has been discussed elsewhere, but will Boeing continue producing parts or are there enough in existence for the foreseeable future?

I always thought Atlas' initial order for 10 -8s was too small compared to the amount of 744s they operate. Great to see them getting more.

CX747 wrote:

jreeves96 wrote:

Me has a feeling that once these are delivered, the 2 BCFs and 2 BDSF will finally hit retirement.. for like the third time.

Article states the new 747-8Fs are potentially earmarked to replace older 747s whose leases are set to expire. I don't think that lines up with the 4 aircraft you mentioned! Frustrating to think that 4 747-400F factory built jets, may go by the wayside, and get replaced by the 747-8Fs and the BCF and BDSFs remain!!!

hOMSaR wrote:

UPS Pilot wrote:

Hypothetical situation. 767's and 777's became the standard for long haul freighters. I believe most if not all are GE powered. What happens if GE start having issues or there is an airframe loss that restricts ETOPS requirements? The 747 is going away and the MD-11 is gone. That would severely impact global logistics if it happened.

Given that GE-powered 767s have been flying for nearly four decades, and the GE90-115 on the 777 has been flying for over 15 years, if there was some fundamental design problem that would seriously affect the safety of these engines, odds are it would have surfaced by now.

UPS Pilot wrote:

hOMSaR wrote:

UPS Pilot wrote:

Hypothetical situation. 767's and 777's became the standard for long haul freighters. I believe most if not all are GE powered. What happens if GE start having issues or there is an airframe loss that restricts ETOPS requirements? The 747 is going away and the MD-11 is gone. That would severely impact global logistics if it happened.

Given that GE-powered 767s have been flying for nearly four decades, and the GE90-115 on the 777 has been flying for over 15 years, if there was some fundamental design problem that would seriously affect the safety of these engines, odds are it would have surfaced by now.

There have been issues. I was one of the first to fly the 767-300PF in 1994.

CX747 wrote:

jreeves96 wrote:

Me has a feeling that once these are delivered, the 2 BCFs and 2 BDSF will finally hit retirement.. for like the third time.

Article states the new 747-8Fs are potentially earmarked to replace older 747s whose leases are set to expire. I don't think that lines up with the 4 aircraft you mentioned! Frustrating to think that 4 747-400F factory built jets, may go by the wayside, and get replaced by the 747-8Fs and the BCF and BDSFs remain!!!

CX747 wrote:

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

CX747 wrote:

Article states the new 747-8Fs are potentially earmarked to replace older 747s whose leases are set to expire. I don't think that lines up with the 4 aircraft you mentioned! Frustrating to think that 4 747-400F factory built jets, may go by the wayside, and get replaced by the 747-8Fs and the BCF and BDSFs remain!!!

It would be strange to keep converted freighters and scrap factory built 747-400 freighters. The purpose built freighters have better payload numbers and also have more cargo volume too.

From a capability standpoint you are spot on.

A 747-400F Factory freighter is a better long term investment. What aircraft are owned and which ones are leased will drive the train to a certain point. If you own the 747-400BCF/BDSF, then their cost per month is less than a leased factory made 747-400F. 747Fs are worth their weight in gold and their new Wuhu-19 lease price could have grown exponentially for when they drop off the current contract. That could lead to the scenario of returning the leased 747 and replacing it with newly purchased 747s.

Time will tell on which jets go and which jets stay. Atlas in the end could continue leasing the current 747-400Fs and using them for growth when the 747-8Fs show up.

amdiesen wrote:

CX747 wrote:

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

It would be strange to keep converted freighters and scrap factory built 747-400 freighters. The purpose built freighters have better payload numbers and also have more cargo volume too.

From a capability standpoint you are spot on.

A 747-400F Factory freighter is a better long term investment. What aircraft are owned and which ones are leased will drive the train to a certain point. If you own the 747-400BCF/BDSF, then their cost per month is less than a leased factory made 747-400F. 747Fs are worth their weight in gold and their new Wuhu-19 lease price could have grown exponentially for when they drop off the current contract. That could lead to the scenario of returning the leased 747 and replacing it with newly purchased 747s.

Time will tell on which jets go and which jets stay. Atlas in the end could continue leasing the current 747-400Fs and using them for growth when the 747-8Fs show up.

supplementing your interpretation, the marketing text reads "up for renewal" & "flexibility"
"The new 747-8F order will also provide the company with enhanced flexibility to balance future capacity needs with customer demand, as a number of its legacy 747-400F aircraft leases will be up for renewal over the next several years."
...one could interpret this to mean: 'With this order, Atlas will be in an improved position of strength when renegotiating near term leases'
for our talented Atlas colleague, one might consul that at the next heavy maintenance the economics will likely favor the harvesting of parts and green time engines (aged conversions)

This order also suggests that Atlas is a potential counter-party for the two parked Saudia B748Fs

CX747 wrote:

jreeves96 wrote:

CX747 wrote:

Article states the new 747-8Fs are potentially earmarked to replace older 747s whose leases are set to expire. I don't think that lines up with the 4 aircraft you mentioned! Frustrating to think that 4 747-400F factory built jets, may go by the wayside, and get replaced by the 747-8Fs and the BCF and BDSFs remain!!!

Just wishful thinking on my part. Would like to see the new airplanes go to the DHL side and then the Polar 400s go to the Atlas side.

I'm curious, what makes you have that desire?

ILNFlyer wrote:

So Atlas is taking the last birds off the line. Sweet. I thought it was going to be UPS.

NWAROOSTER wrote:

FLALEFTY wrote:

amdiesen wrote:

supplementing your interpretation, the marketing text reads "up for renewal" & "flexibility"
"The new 747-8F order will also provide the company with enhanced flexibility to balance future capacity needs with customer demand, as a number of its legacy 747-400F aircraft leases will be up for renewal over the next several years."
...one could interpret this to mean: 'With this order, Atlas will be in an improved position of strength when renegotiating near term leases'
for our talented Atlas colleague, one might consul that at the next heavy maintenance the economics will likely favor the harvesting of parts and green time engines (aged conversions)

This order also suggests that Atlas is a potential counter-party for the two parked Saudia B748Fs

The two Saudia B748F's were originally intended for Atlas, were NTU and then obtained by Saudia. See the attached links:

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... nes/ey6kdo

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... nes/e967w8

The two Saudi 747-8F aircraft have be in storage since January, 2020. The question is, does Saudi intend to reactivate them or are they considering selling them. They were put into storage before the Corona Virus became a problem.

wjcandee wrote:

ILNFlyer wrote:

So Atlas is taking the last birds off the line. Sweet. I thought it was going to be UPS.

UPS's new CEO bragged about having turned them down.

bwvilla wrote:

Polot wrote:

bwvilla wrote:

Really, what is the advantage of the 747-8F over the 777F? 10 tonnes or so extra capacity but at what extra cost?

Nose door loading, which occasionally comes in handy as Atlas does a lot of charter work.

But AFAIK, nose doors are rarely used - and for missions where they are needed, Atlas already has plenty of nose door equipped 747F. Could it just be that Atlas is currently a major 747 operator and they got these last airframes at a knockdown price - i.e. rather than 747F being particularly better than other aircraft such as 777F?

Sancho99504 wrote:

bwvilla wrote:

Polot wrote:

Nose door loading, which occasionally comes in handy as Atlas does a lot of charter work.

But AFAIK, nose doors are rarely used - and for missions where they are needed, Atlas already has plenty of nose door equipped 747F. Could it just be that Atlas is currently a major 747 operator and they got these last airframes at a knockdown price - i.e. rather than 747F being particularly better than other aircraft such as 777F?

Cargolux does nose operations frequently. When I used to work at ORD, 6 flights a week, 6 flights required a nose operation.
CV ships the outsized cargo that nobody else will touch.
One time, they brought in 2 cranes in order for us to move two hydroelectric generator turbine blade halves. One crane to help the loader lift, the other to help move each piece into position.

We did CI everyday and did a nose op 3-4x a week. I see the nose on SQ open every time I see one in SEA.

wjcandee wrote:

ILNFlyer wrote:

So Atlas is taking the last birds off the line. Sweet. I thought it was going to be UPS.

UPS's new CEO bragged about having turned them down.