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B752OS
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:14 pm

Is it really necessary for QF to serve anything else besides JFK, DFW (for the connection opportunities), LAX and SFO? That has to cover the 3 largest markets - JFK/LAX/SFO, and also give them a point to connect over - DFW.
 
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qf2220
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:19 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:
Given Qantas has a relatively small longhaul fleet, is it economical to operate just a dozen each of A380s, 787s and looking forward perhaps the A350? Or when the travel industry recovers could we see the likes of the A350 (or 777X if they order it instead) replacing some of the 787 and A380 routes, for example PER-LHR and SYD-LAX?


For some reason, a fleet of 12 or more seems to be where it's needed for a particular aircraft type to be economic at Qantas. I've seen 12 pop up more often than not when it comes to orders over the years for Qantas, so perhaps with their models internally, that's the minimum. So to answer your question, I think it is economical, or Qantas wouldn't do it, especially under the current CEO.


For large long haul, 12 might reflect the traditional SYD/MEL to US and UK (4 routes with ~3 frames each)? SO it could be QF economics rather than fleet economics that are driving the efficiency calculations?
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:38 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
redroo wrote:
Snowball in hell chance of getting any investment banker living in Mosman to go to SWZ to catch the LHR or JFK.


Pretty much, the target market for the Sunrise flights lives east of Drummoyne (more like east of the Harbour Bridge).


Do they? Have you got some data to back that up or are you just assuming, based on that old chestnut of where the rich people live? You'll also find there's a ton of wealth in other areas of Sydney and the Blue Mountains as well.

We don't know yet if QF will switch everything to SWZ. It's going to compete with SYD, so with attractive landing fees and a curfew free environment, they could conceivably switch, especially if they want to save money and return more cash to shareholders. Ditto other foreign airlines. It's going to be an extremely interesting development.... and trust me, people will travel to the new airport to get the service, just as people travel from far and wide to get to SYD. Wherever the flights are from, that's where people will go get them from. You're hardly going to have someone stamping their feet because the flight they want is at the other airport.

It works just fine in other cities around the world. Will SYD remain the premier international gateway to Sydney? That's up for debate once the new airport opens. Either way, Sunrise and QF international could move there. They have not said they will, they have not said they won't, but it needs to be factored in to any speculation about the services.


I was being slightly facetious, and assumed that was obvious, but regardless you only need to look at average income by post code to see that it skews towards the eastern third of the Sydney Basin. Of course there is a lot of money across the Basin, and an increasingly greater corporate presence in Parramatta, Norwest etc, but finance, banking and (less relevant) top-tier law and consulting firms are still very much CBD centric. Those are the industries that drive the high-demand, high-premium traffic.

SWZ will be a successful port in time, I have no doubt about that. I can see international flights to SE Asia happening fairly soon after opening, as it will permit midnight departures. Pre-COVID, SQ had a 22:00 departure which operated via CBR, in part to kill dead time, whereas MH had a 22:30 departure which arrives in KUL at 03:45. If you compare SQ’s schedules at MEL and BNE, the attraction of a late night departure is clear. SQ, MH etc will never, ever leave SYD, but a split operation might be attractive to them.

This is less attractive to Qantas. They do not operate any late night departures (i.e. after 23:00) from MEL or BNE, so there is no real attraction for them to operate from SWZ just to avoid the curfew. Their network, especially with only one flight per day to most Asian ports, simply doesn’t require it, other than maybe a couple more arrivals in the 05:00-06:00 window. I therefore don’t see any need for them to duplicate their existing operation.

SWZ will grow, I don’t doubt that, but absent some form of regulation (such as LGA and HND) I cannot see how a wide scale move away from SYD is either desirable to the airlines or realistic. Instead, IMHO, SWZ will grow slowly but steadily, in line with natural growth, soaking up a lot of the new capacity added to Sydney Basin in the decades after it opens.
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Tedjamvor
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:40 am

LAX772LR wrote:
kimshep wrote:
Apart from Disney and Epcot, Orlando doesn't have a lot of other major international-grade attractions.

...Universal/Harry Potter, Nickelodeon, Chocolate Kingdom, Kennedy Space Center, SeaWorld, LegoLand, etc etc.
Not to mention tons of international expos and conferences, rivaled only by the likes of LAS.

Probably not sufficient to attract Australians to an 18hr nonstop; but let's not pretend that these weren't highly contributory to the airport having 20+ foreign carriers from four different continents, either.


Plus 7/14 day cruises to Mexico, the Caribbean and further south, or anyone wanting to take a road trip down the keys.

Not sure if you could support a daily LAX-MCO/MIA flight, but I think a 3x weekly flight would fill.
 
tullamarine
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:57 am

Tedjamvor wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
kimshep wrote:
Apart from Disney and Epcot, Orlando doesn't have a lot of other major international-grade attractions.

...Universal/Harry Potter, Nickelodeon, Chocolate Kingdom, Kennedy Space Center, SeaWorld, LegoLand, etc etc.
Not to mention tons of international expos and conferences, rivaled only by the likes of LAS.

Probably not sufficient to attract Australians to an 18hr nonstop; but let's not pretend that these weren't highly contributory to the airport having 20+ foreign carriers from four different continents, either.


Plus 7/14 day cruises to Mexico, the Caribbean and further south, or anyone wanting to take a road trip down the keys.

Not sure if you could support a daily LAX-MCO/MIA flight, but I think a 3x weekly flight would fill.

Why?? Isn't that what AA does with plenty of connections from arriving QF flights in both LAX and DFW?
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Kent350787
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:03 am

tullamarine wrote:
Tedjamvor wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
...Universal/Harry Potter, Nickelodeon, Chocolate Kingdom, Kennedy Space Center, SeaWorld, LegoLand, etc etc.
Not to mention tons of international expos and conferences, rivaled only by the likes of LAS.

Probably not sufficient to attract Australians to an 18hr nonstop; but let's not pretend that these weren't highly contributory to the airport having 20+ foreign carriers from four different continents, either.


Plus 7/14 day cruises to Mexico, the Caribbean and further south, or anyone wanting to take a road trip down the keys.

Not sure if you could support a daily LAX-MCO/MIA flight, but I think a 3x weekly flight would fill.

Why?? Isn't that what AA does with plenty of connections from arriving QF flights in both LAX and DFW?


Exactly. I’m pretty safe in saying there will never be a regular service on QF metal to FL.
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vedatil4
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:47 am

Hello Aussie friends. I just wanted to step in to say that a new international terminal should be ready in Tijuana by December 2021. There's now official acknowledgement that it'll have an "in-transit" aspect to it. Passengers will be able to enter Mexico perhaps to connect to a flight or walk directly over to the USA perhaps to catch a flight in San Diego or ride a shuttle to a place in southern California. I imagine Qantas and other airlines are considering Tijuana as an option now. Passengers could avoid needing a USA visa or dealing with immigration at LAX. Entering the USA using the CBX bridge is a much more pleasant experience.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:10 pm

vedatil4 wrote:
I imagine Qantas and other airlines are considering Tijuana as an option now. Passengers could avoid needing a USA visa or dealing with immigration at LAX. Entering the USA using the CBX bridge is a much more pleasant experience.

LOL.

Airlines, especially this one, don't fly to LAX because they love the dated facilities and extreme congestion.... they fly there because that's where the ***demand*** is.
All the nice bridges in the world, aren't going to change (or put the slightest dent into) that, any time soon.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
melpax
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:09 pm

vedatil4 wrote:
Hello Aussie friends. I just wanted to step in to say that a new international terminal should be ready in Tijuana by December 2021. There's now official acknowledgement that it'll have an "in-transit" aspect to it. Passengers will be able to enter Mexico perhaps to connect to a flight or walk directly over to the USA perhaps to catch a flight in San Diego or ride a shuttle to a place in southern California. I imagine Qantas and other airlines are considering Tijuana as an option now. Passengers could avoid needing a USA visa or dealing with immigration at LAX. Entering the USA using the CBX bridge is a much more pleasant experience.


TIJ would never be a QF destination, with little premium/business demand, but as I said earlier, It may work as a possible JQ destination if they ever get suitable equipment. Best of both worlds, you have an alternate destination airport for LA, without cannibalising QF mainline fares to LAX, would be popular with those doing Disneyland & Hollywood looking for cheap fares, and for those heading to the Mexican resorts, and Central America. Not having to transit LAX would be a bonus, especially for those who are unable to obtain an ETSA. Pre-COVID, the only option for these people was flying via Santiago.
 
vedatil4
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:24 pm

Of course the city of Tijuana won't be the destination for practically all of the Qantas passengers. But I see lots of positives and few negatives in a new "fiesta route" SYD-TIJ (or TJX)-LHR route for example. It seems a good half-way pit stop. Granted there's tons of demand at LAX but the immigration process and traffic there can be dreadful. San Diego has lots of tourist things to see as well. I don't know if the TPP treaty with Mexico helps in any way. I've seen signage at TIJ airport.

Anyway, I wanted to fill you in. The international terminal is close to a grand opening. The operators of TIJ and CBX are betting very big that Chinese airlines will show up. Hainan flew Beijing-TIJ-MEX for several years. Of course Qantas is also welcome. I imagine they're aware of the new terminal's construction by now and are exploring the possible cost savings, connections, and marketing angles.

I must admit that I'm secretly hoping I can fly the TIJ-LHR segment on Qantas someday. I'd be blasting INXS songs the entire flight. :-)
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:54 pm

vedatil4 wrote:
Of course the city of Tijuana won't be the destination for practically all of the Qantas passengers. But I see lots of positives and few negatives in a new "fiesta route" SYD-TIJ (or TJX)-LHR route for example. It seems a good half-way pit stop. Granted there's tons of demand at LAX but the immigration process and traffic there can be dreadful. San Diego has lots of tourist things to see as well. I don't know if the TPP treaty with Mexico helps in any way. I've seen signage at TIJ airport.


There is no way people would fly to London via Tijuana. For a start, going from the Australian east coast to London via the USA is longer than going via Europe. I did it once, SYD-LAX on Qantas and LAX-DUB on Aer Lingus and I'd never, ever do it again. It felt like the flight would never end. It also goes against all indications in the market that people want direct flights and not to stop off.

Still, one can dream, I guess :)
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
vedatil4
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:43 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
vedatil4 wrote:
Of course the city of Tijuana won't be the destination for practically all of the Qantas passengers. But I see lots of positives and few negatives in a new "fiesta route" SYD-TIJ (or TJX)-LHR route for example. It seems a good half-way pit stop. Granted there's tons of demand at LAX but the immigration process and traffic there can be dreadful. San Diego has lots of tourist things to see as well. I don't know if the TPP treaty with Mexico helps in any way. I've seen signage at TIJ airport.


There is no way people would fly to London via Tijuana. For a start, going from the Australian east coast to London via the USA is longer than going via Europe. I did it once, SYD-LAX on Qantas and LAX-DUB on Aer Lingus and I'd never, ever do it again. It felt like the flight would never end. It also goes against all indications in the market that people want direct flights and not to stop off.

Still, one can dream, I guess :)


I can't even imagine what two long flights like that back-to-back would be like. I usually start crying "uncle" at about six hours.

I've seen the SYD-DFW flight over southern Baja at about 12 hours in. That takes stamina even in business class. For SYD-LHR you probably become one with the seat.

I want to visit Australia but those super-long flight always give me pause. Luckily we have koalas, kangaroos, and Tazmanian devils at the local zoo. We might even have a few "drop bears".

Lots of love to our Aussie friends.
 
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:47 pm

vedatil4 wrote:
ClassicLover wrote:
vedatil4 wrote:
Of course the city of Tijuana won't be the destination for practically all of the Qantas passengers. But I see lots of positives and few negatives in a new "fiesta route" SYD-TIJ (or TJX)-LHR route for example. It seems a good half-way pit stop. Granted there's tons of demand at LAX but the immigration process and traffic there can be dreadful. San Diego has lots of tourist things to see as well. I don't know if the TPP treaty with Mexico helps in any way. I've seen signage at TIJ airport.


There is no way people would fly to London via Tijuana. For a start, going from the Australian east coast to London via the USA is longer than going via Europe. I did it once, SYD-LAX on Qantas and LAX-DUB on Aer Lingus and I'd never, ever do it again. It felt like the flight would never end. It also goes against all indications in the market that people want direct flights and not to stop off.

Still, one can dream, I guess :)


I can't even imagine what two long flights like that back-to-back would be like. I usually start crying "uncle" at about six hours.

I've seen the SYD-DFW flight over southern Baja at about 12 hours in. That takes stamina even in business class. For SYD-LHR you probably become one with the seat.

I want to visit Australia but those super-long flight always give me pause. Luckily we have koalas, kangaroos, and Tazmanian devils at the local zoo. We might even have a few "drop bears".

Lots of love to our Aussie friends.

When you live in a part of the world where it takes a minimum of 8 hours to get to the bulk of international destinations, you just get used to it. Over the years I’ve flown flights in excess of 12 hours in all classes of service, and while it is definitely a more relaxing experience up in the pointy end, I can’t say I’ve ever found it unbearable. Undropbearable perhaps :lol:

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:24 pm

melpax wrote:
Best of both worlds, you have an alternate destination airport for LA, without cannibalising QF mainline fares to LAX, would be popular with those doing Disneyland & Hollywood looking for cheap fares

I'm not sure you understand the geography all that well.... who in the world is going to fly 13hrs to TIJ, then drive 2hrs just to get to the southside of L.A., then another 45min crossing L.A. itself, in order to get to Hollywood? All when they could've just flown into LAX, then taken an Uber/Lyft down La Cienega or (on a good day) the 405?

And even if there are some penny-pinchers out there who'd choose to go through all that:
What financial interest would QF/JQ have in creating a whole new station + flight (with no connecting partners or supplementary flow traffic) to service them?


vedatil4 wrote:
I can't even imagine what two long flights like that back-to-back would be like. I usually start crying "uncle" at about six hours.

I've seen the SYD-DFW flight over southern Baja at about 12 hours in. That takes stamina even in business class. For SYD-LHR you probably become one with the seat.

Seems like you're just not up to longhaul in general.... 12hrs is absolutely nothing nowadays: takeoff, dinner, sleep, breakfast, quick movie, land.
Heck, 16hrs is barely out of the ordinary anymore.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:27 pm

melpax wrote:
vedatil4 wrote:
Hello Aussie friends. I just wanted to step in to say that a new international terminal should be ready in Tijuana by December 2021. There's now official acknowledgement that it'll have an "in-transit" aspect to it. Passengers will be able to enter Mexico perhaps to connect to a flight or walk directly over to the USA perhaps to catch a flight in San Diego or ride a shuttle to a place in southern California. I imagine Qantas and other airlines are considering Tijuana as an option now. Passengers could avoid needing a USA visa or dealing with immigration at LAX. Entering the USA using the CBX bridge is a much more pleasant experience.


TIJ would never be a QF destination, with little premium/business demand, but as I said earlier, It may work as a possible JQ destination if they ever get suitable equipment. Best of both worlds, you have an alternate destination airport for LA, without cannibalising QF mainline fares to LAX, would be popular with those doing Disneyland & Hollywood looking for cheap fares, and for those heading to the Mexican resorts, and Central America. Not having to transit LAX would be a bonus, especially for those who are unable to obtain an ETSA. Pre-COVID, the only option for these people was flying via Santiago.


Apologies Melpax, but I am going to have to disagree with you about Jetstar’s potential to North America. Jetstar longhaul was never a runaway success, never growing beyond the initial 11 A330s replacer by 11 787s, and really only ‘sticking’ in a handful of markets: Japan, Denpasar and Honolulu. The former has always been a strong niche for them from the Queensland beach markets, Bali speaks for itself, and Honolulu is always popular but demand has dropped off a bit in recent years as the AUD dropped against the USD. Outside of those three they were never very successful. Phuket and Ho Chi Minh City were always less than daily, despite both having more than enough demand to support daily flights ... the demand simply was not flying Jetstar. Expecting any significant long haul growth from Jetstar is therefore unrealistic IMHO. Moreover, the cost/benefit analysis of an LCC reduces on longer flights, and I can’t imagine many people flying their kids 14 hours with no food or IFE, crossing the US-Mexico border and then driving another 2-3 hours, just to save a couple of hundred dollars.

More importantly, fares to the US have been dirt cheap for a few years pre-COVID with fairly significant overcapacity in the market. Qantas always maintained a bit of a yield premium, but VA/DL and UA seemed to have rolling specials of AUD $900 fares (the lowest I saw was about AUD $750 return on UA). That was unheard of only a few years ago, by 2019 was practically expected. Other than over Christmas and January school holidays, when both demand and prices go through the roof, I can’t see how Jetstar can possibly compete. Fares are already so low that there isn’t much scope for an LCC to undercut them while still making a profit. The full service carriers have the benefit of relying on the front third of the aircraft to make up for the ‘volume’ fares in the back third, an LCC would need to break even just on those fares.
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Antarius
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:33 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
melpax wrote:
Best of both worlds, you have an alternate destination airport for LA, without cannibalising QF mainline fares to LAX, would be popular with those doing Disneyland & Hollywood looking for cheap fares

I'm not sure you understand the geography all that well.... who in the world is going to fly 13hrs to TIJ, then drive 2hrs just to get to the southside of L.A., then another 45min crossing L.A. itself, in order to get to Hollywood? All when they could've just flown into LAX, then taken an Uber/Lyft down La Cienega or (on a good day) the 405?

And even if there are some penny-pinchers out there who'd choose to go through all that:
What financial interest would QF/JQ have in creating a whole new station + flight (with no connecting partners or supplementary flow traffic) to service them?


Not to mention that tech stops are largely a vestige of the past unless absolutely necessary due to terrain or altitude etc. When you can fly nonstop to a major O&D and connecting hub, there's a zero (even that's being generous) chance that they fly to TIJ.

This might be one of the most out there ideas every pitched in a.net history.
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melpax
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:30 am

It is a bit of a pie in the sky idea, but have had to fly back to MEL from Cancun. Having to go through immigration, customs, and TSA just to transit IAH was a painful experience, a direct flight, or a 'normal' transit experience would have been much easier.
 
vedatil4
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:46 am

Antarius wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
melpax wrote:
Best of both worlds, you have an alternate destination airport for LA, without cannibalising QF mainline fares to LAX, would be popular with those doing Disneyland & Hollywood looking for cheap fares

I'm not sure you understand the geography all that well.... who in the world is going to fly 13hrs to TIJ, then drive 2hrs just to get to the southside of L.A., then another 45min crossing L.A. itself, in order to get to Hollywood? All when they could've just flown into LAX, then taken an Uber/Lyft down La Cienega or (on a good day) the 405?

And even if there are some penny-pinchers out there who'd choose to go through all that:
What financial interest would QF/JQ have in creating a whole new station + flight (with no connecting partners or supplementary flow traffic) to service them?


Not to mention that tech stops are largely a vestige of the past unless absolutely necessary due to terrain or altitude etc. When you can fly nonstop to a major O&D and connecting hub, there's a zero (even that's being generous) chance that they fly to TIJ.

This might be one of the most out there ideas every pitched in a.net history.


For Qantas' Project Sunrise ultra long haul goal, I agree.

But some airlines from the west side of the Pacific will eventually show up at TIJ in a year or two as an alternative to LAX. The international terminal is already framed up, the bridge to the USA built, and the ground transport system to points in southern California is being refined.

What remains to be seen is who will show up to this "field of dreams". If it's a crazy idea, the airport owner sure is doing a good job addressing all the past issues raised by routes from China and Central America then betting big money with lots of construction and arrangements to entice foreign carriers. They're likely trying to set up connecting flight partners too.

It might not be Qantas that shows up at TIJ in the near future but perhaps someday they'll feel like exploring the option when it's more developed.

Since we're talking Qantas long haul, what drove their decision to fly the "fiesta route" from Sydney to London via Acapulco and Mexico City back in the 60s? That must've seemed crazy at the time too.
 
kimshep
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:51 am

LAX772LR wrote:
kimshep wrote:
Apart from Disney and Epcot, Orlando doesn't have a lot of other major international-grade attractions.

...Universal/Harry Potter, Nickelodeon, Chocolate Kingdom, Kennedy Space Center, SeaWorld, LegoLand, etc etc.
Not to mention tons of international expos and conferences, rivaled only by the likes of LAS.

Probably not sufficient to attract Australians to an 18hr nonstop; but let's not pretend that these weren't highly contributory to the airport having 20+ foreign carriers from four different continents, either.


- Most of the examples cited are also present in / around the Los Angeles area and the MN 'Mall Of America' region, as well.
- Far away as we might be in Australia, we actually do have Universal Studios, Seaworld and a Nickelodean at Seaworld on the Gold Coast. Not to put too fine a point on it, but these are the Starbucks / McDonalds / Hilton-level attractions that many cities have.
- Kennedy Space Centre - yes, I would grant that as being an international-grade attraction.

Given that I have family in the Tampa - Sarasota - Orlando triangle, I'm fairly familiar with the territory. LOL.

Unlike many others here who suggest that "QF would never serve Miami because it is low yield leisure only", I'm afraid I don't agree.
- First, a lot of Australian passengers headed to MIA / Florida on QF/AA are VFR.
- Secondly, there is a complement of reasonably wealthy Aussies that are fond of FLL-based cruises, who don't necessarily arrive in the back of the bus ie: Y class.
- Third, yes there are tourist grade travellers, but those that venture to the East Coast / MIA / FLL / CLT tend to spend both more time and more money than the Australian 'Californian trippers'.
- Finally, most of the Florida-based Convention Bureaus are quite active - and there is a reasonable amount of convention and conference traffic. Much more than you would comparitively see in Las Vegas, given that Australian companies generally tend to often shy away from overtly aligning business functions with gambling venues.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:18 am

kimshep wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
kimshep wrote:
Apart from Disney and Epcot, Orlando doesn't have a lot of other major international-grade attractions.

...Universal/Harry Potter, Nickelodeon, Chocolate Kingdom, Kennedy Space Center, SeaWorld, LegoLand, etc etc.
Not to mention tons of international expos and conferences, rivaled only by the likes of LAS.

Probably not sufficient to attract Australians to an 18hr nonstop; but let's not pretend that these weren't highly contributory to the airport having 20+ foreign carriers from four different continents, either.


- Most of the examples cited are also present in / around the Los Angeles area and the MN 'Mall Of America' region, as well.
- Far away as we might be in Australia, we actually do have Universal Studios, Seaworld and a Nickelodean at Seaworld on the Gold Coast. Not to put too fine a point on it, but these are the Starbucks / McDonalds / Hilton-level attractions that many cities have.

That still doesn't make your claim accurate; MCO attracts int'l traffic from plenty of places where those things aren't common, and they serve as some of the top draws.

Again, as previously stated, I'm aware that none of those things would entice Australians to board an 18hr+ nonstop; but to claim that there's no attractions of int'l interest outside of Disney, is a falsehood from every approachable angle.


vedatil4 wrote:
But some airlines from the west side of the Pacific will eventually show up at TIJ in a year or two as an alternative to LAX. The international terminal is already framed up, the bridge to the USA built, and the ground transport system to points in southern California is being refined.

No matter how many times you make this assertion, TIJ is *N*E*V*E*R* going to function as an "alternative to LAX."
Heck, ONT can't even effectively do that, and that's a large international airfield that's actually within the Greater Los Angeles metro.

Granted, it wouldn't be surprising to see some Asian carrier launch TIJ as a gateway to Pacific Mexico, with bleed-over to San Diego; JL effectively does the inverse with its NRT-SAN flight.

...but as an alternative to a city that's a 2.5hr drive away, with nonstops by essentially every airline on the planet? That's a laughable proposal.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:39 am

LAX772LR wrote:
kimshep wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
...Universal/Harry Potter, Nickelodeon, Chocolate Kingdom, Kennedy Space Center, SeaWorld, LegoLand, etc etc.
Not to mention tons of international expos and conferences, rivaled only by the likes of LAS.

Probably not sufficient to attract Australians to an 18hr nonstop; but let's not pretend that these weren't highly contributory to the airport having 20+ foreign carriers from four different continents, either.


- Most of the examples cited are also present in / around the Los Angeles area and the MN 'Mall Of America' region, as well.
- Far away as we might be in Australia, we actually do have Universal Studios, Seaworld and a Nickelodean at Seaworld on the Gold Coast. Not to put too fine a point on it, but these are the Starbucks / McDonalds / Hilton-level attractions that many cities have.

That still doesn't make your claim accurate; MCO attracts int'l traffic from plenty of places where those things aren't common, and they serve as some of the top draws.

Again, as previously stated, I'm aware that none of those things would entice Australians to board an 18hr+ nonstop; but to claim that there's no attractions of int'l interest outside of Disney, is a falsehood from every approachable angle.


vedatil4 wrote:
But some airlines from the west side of the Pacific will eventually show up at TIJ in a year or two as an alternative to LAX. The international terminal is already framed up, the bridge to the USA built, and the ground transport system to points in southern California is being refined.

No matter how many times you make this assertion, TIJ is *N*E*V*E*R* going to function as an "alternative to LAX."
Heck, ONT can't even effectively do that, and that's a large international airfield that's actually within the Greater Los Angeles metro.

Granted, it wouldn't be surprising to see some Asian carrier launch TIJ as a gateway to Pacific Mexico, with bleed-over to San Diego; JL effectively does the inverse with its NRT-SAN flight.

...but as an alternative to a city that's a 2.5hr drive away, with nonstops by essentially every airline on the planet? That's a laughable proposal.


There's always time to set up Ryanair Australia!
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:47 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
kimshep wrote:

- Most of the examples cited are also present in / around the Los Angeles area and the MN 'Mall Of America' region, as well.
- Far away as we might be in Australia, we actually do have Universal Studios, Seaworld and a Nickelodean at Seaworld on the Gold Coast. Not to put too fine a point on it, but these are the Starbucks / McDonalds / Hilton-level attractions that many cities have.

That still doesn't make your claim accurate; MCO attracts int'l traffic from plenty of places where those things aren't common, and they serve as some of the top draws.

Again, as previously stated, I'm aware that none of those things would entice Australians to board an 18hr+ nonstop; but to claim that there's no attractions of int'l interest outside of Disney, is a falsehood from every approachable angle.


vedatil4 wrote:
But some airlines from the west side of the Pacific will eventually show up at TIJ in a year or two as an alternative to LAX. The international terminal is already framed up, the bridge to the USA built, and the ground transport system to points in southern California is being refined.

No matter how many times you make this assertion, TIJ is *N*E*V*E*R* going to function as an "alternative to LAX."
Heck, ONT can't even effectively do that, and that's a large international airfield that's actually within the Greater Los Angeles metro.

Granted, it wouldn't be surprising to see some Asian carrier launch TIJ as a gateway to Pacific Mexico, with bleed-over to San Diego; JL effectively does the inverse with its NRT-SAN flight.

...but as an alternative to a city that's a 2.5hr drive away, with nonstops by essentially every airline on the planet? That's a laughable proposal.


There's always time to set up Ryanair Australia!


Could be time for Air New Zealand to have their '3rd' go at the Australian domestic market, or Singapore Airlines have their '4th' go at the Australian domestic market perhaps? ;)
 
vedatil4
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:46 pm

melpax wrote:
It is a bit of a pie in the sky idea, but have had to fly back to MEL from Cancun. Having to go through immigration, customs, and TSA just to transit IAH was a painful experience, a direct flight, or a 'normal' transit experience would have been much easier.


For your CUN-MEL flight and the many possible combinations of SYD-LAX-to places east or south of there, from an Aussie perspective, doesn't it irritate a little knowing that you MUST get a USA visa and pay extra for your tickets to be processed by USA authorities?

What if you wanted to bring Cuban rum and cigars back from CUN? Would they have been confiscated at IAH even though you're in-country a few hours and heading to Australia? I imagine ultra-long direct flights and the possible TIJ terminal I've posted about should help to avoid this extra cost and screening by a third country between destinations.

Please fill me in on what happens at these LAX or IAH transfers. If I were Aussie, I'd probably resent that screening. What if you're a Aussie inadmissable in the USA that wants to fly to Trinidad? Would you have to fly almost all the way around the world via LHR?

To get back on topic, with this in mind, Project Sunrise 16-hour lights may open up other destinations that aren't London.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:28 pm

vedatil4 wrote:
melpax wrote:
It is a bit of a pie in the sky idea, but have had to fly back to MEL from Cancun. Having to go through immigration, customs, and TSA just to transit IAH was a painful experience, a direct flight, or a 'normal' transit experience would have been much easier.


For your CUN-MEL flight and the many possible combinations of SYD-LAX-to places east or south of there, from an Aussie perspective, doesn't it irritate a little knowing that you MUST get a USA visa and pay extra for your tickets to be processed by USA authorities?

What if you wanted to bring Cuban rum and cigars back from CUN? Would they have been confiscated at IAH even though you're in-country a few hours and heading to Australia? I imagine ultra-long direct flights and the possible TIJ terminal I've posted about should help to avoid this extra cost and screening by a third country between destinations.

Please fill me in on what happens at these LAX or IAH transfers. If I were Aussie, I'd probably resent that screening. What if you're a Aussie inadmissable in the USA that wants to fly to Trinidad? Would you have to fly almost all the way around the world via LHR?

To get back on topic, with this in mind, Project Sunrise 16-hour lights may open up other destinations that aren't London.


And QF have said such with JFK/CDG/FRA/GIG/CPT/ all having been mentioned as possible Project Sunrise destinations, GIG/CPT are shorter.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:29 pm

vedatil4 wrote:
Please fill me in on what happens at these LAX or IAH transfers. If I were Aussie, I'd probably resent that screening. What if you're a Aussie inadmissable in the USA that wants to fly to Trinidad? Would you have to fly almost all the way around the world via LHR?

Shortest route based on services normally (pre-COVID) offered would be via SCL and PTY. Going just via SCL if it were possible would be 1000nm shorter from SYD than going via LAX, DFW, or IAH. Even with the PTY stop, it is still shorter distance than SYD-LAX-MIA-POS or SYD-DFW-MIA-POS, and only a little longer than SYD-IAH-POS.

V/F
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melpax
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:22 am

vedatil4 wrote:

For your CUN-MEL flight and the many possible combinations of SYD-LAX-to places east or south of there, from an Aussie perspective, doesn't it irritate a little knowing that you MUST get a USA visa and pay extra for your tickets to be processed by USA authorities?

What if you wanted to bring Cuban rum and cigars back from CUN? Would they have been confiscated at IAH even though you're in-country a few hours and heading to Australia? I imagine ultra-long direct flights and the possible TIJ terminal I've posted about should help to avoid this extra cost and screening by a third country between destinations.

Please fill me in on what happens at these LAX or IAH transfers. If I were Aussie, I'd probably resent that screening. What if you're a Aussie inadmissable in the USA that wants to fly to Trinidad? Would you have to fly almost all the way around the world via LHR?

To get back on topic, with this in mind, Project Sunrise 16-hour lights may open up other destinations that aren't London.


When I 'transited' through IAH, it was the full CPB & TSA experience. Which meant having to have a valid ESTA. Was changing to a IAH-AKL flight, most of the 4 hour transit was spent in CPB & TSA queues. A PITA when I wasn't leaving the airport. As I said earlier, Aussies who are unadmissable to the US, or who would need to obtain a full tourist visa, would need to travel via Santiago. Also bear in mind that there is a large Australian Permament Resident population who are citizens of countries that are not in the ESTA program. Again, these folk would need a full visa just to transit an airport.

On the Rum & Cigars, yes, they probably would be confiscated on arrival in the US, but the duty-free limits for Booze & Tobacco in Australia are pathetically low. You can only bring in 2.25 litres of Alcohol, and 25 grams of Tobacco.
 
vedatil4
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:22 am

melpax wrote:
vedatil4 wrote:

For your CUN-MEL flight and the many possible combinations of SYD-LAX-to places east or south of there, from an Aussie perspective, doesn't it irritate a little knowing that you MUST get a USA visa and pay extra for your tickets to be processed by USA authorities?

What if you wanted to bring Cuban rum and cigars back from CUN? Would they have been confiscated at IAH even though you're in-country a few hours and heading to Australia? I imagine ultra-long direct flights and the possible TIJ terminal I've posted about should help to avoid this extra cost and screening by a third country between destinations.

Please fill me in on what happens at these LAX or IAH transfers. If I were Aussie, I'd probably resent that screening. What if you're a Aussie inadmissable in the USA that wants to fly to Trinidad? Would you have to fly almost all the way around the world via LHR?

To get back on topic, with this in mind, Project Sunrise 16-hour lights may open up other destinations that aren't London.


When I 'transited' through IAH, it was the full CPB & TSA experience. Which meant having to have a valid ESTA. Was changing to a IAH-AKL flight, most of the 4 hour transit was spent in CPB & TSA queues. A PITA when I wasn't leaving the airport. As I said earlier, Aussies who are unadmissable to the US, or who would need to obtain a full tourist visa, would need to travel via Santiago. Also bear in mind that there is a large Australian Permament Resident population who are citizens of countries that are not in the ESTA program. Again, these folk would need a full visa just to transit an airport.

On the Rum & Cigars, yes, they probably would be confiscated on arrival in the US, but the duty-free limits for Booze & Tobacco in Australia are pathetically low. You can only bring in 2.25 litres of Alcohol, and 25 grams of Tobacco.


Ugh, the full experience is usually not pleasant. I was treated like a criminal once for bringing an obviously airport-bought ham sandwich still in a sealed package back from Madrid. I told the officer I was willing to throw it in the trash and he still sent us to a secondary inspection. I almost missed my connecting flight. I can only imagine how they treat non-citizens if they're carrying Cuban cigars or show any resistance to questions.

I hope you get more Qantas and/or Air New Zealand direct flights after all the Project Sunrise kinks are worked out. The planes are usually easy to spot high up in the sky heading eastbound torward the west coast of Baja. It's exciting to see them go over. They fly over a part of the Pacific roughly between Tahiti and Cabo San Lucas that sees very little traffic.

Thanks for clarifying.
 
kimshep
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:34 am

LAX772LR wrote:
kimshep wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
...Universal/Harry Potter, Nickelodeon, Chocolate Kingdom, Kennedy Space Center, SeaWorld, LegoLand, etc etc.
Not to mention tons of international expos and conferences, rivaled only by the likes of LAS.

Probably not sufficient to attract Australians to an 18hr nonstop; but let's not pretend that these weren't highly contributory to the airport having 20+ foreign carriers from four different continents, either.


- Most of the examples cited are also present in / around the Los Angeles area and the MN 'Mall Of America' region, as well.
- Far away as we might be in Australia, we actually do have Universal Studios, Seaworld and a Nickelodean at Seaworld on the Gold Coast. Not to put too fine a point on it, but these are the Starbucks / McDonalds / Hilton-level attractions that many cities have.

That still doesn't make your claim accurate; MCO attracts int'l traffic from plenty of places where those things aren't common, and they serve as some of the top draws.

Again, as previously stated, I'm aware that none of those things would entice Australians to board an 18hr+ nonstop; but to claim that there's no attractions of int'l interest outside of Disney, is a falsehood from every approachable angle.


I don't mind you repeating your statement, but if you are going to rebut with my quote, please quote it correctly.
To whit: At NO time did I make the claim "that there's no attractions of int'l in interest outside Disney." That is the falsehood.

My quote - shown above - states quite clearly that :
"Apart from Disney and Epcot, Orlando doesn't have a lot of other major international-grade attractions." There is a difference. :-)
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:30 am

kimshep wrote:
There is a difference. :-)

...but considering the total subjectivity of such a claim, it's without a distinction. :-)
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Kent350787
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:06 am

BUt getting back on topic, Project Sunrise will never fly to FL, and I still stand by my statement that QF metal/fiber will not either.

The more i think about it, the more Project Sunrise seems essential to QF international in a post-Covid world if the yields are right, but it's difficult to see ports outside JFK in North America.
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A350OZ
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:16 am

Kent350787 wrote:
The more i think about it, the more Project Sunrise seems essential to QF international in a post-Covid world if the yields are right, but it's difficult to see ports outside JFK in North America.


I guess ORD (originating from SYD) could be another one - the BNE route was really only due to the lack of range of the 789. But I guess it will be years until they put Chicago back on the map, if ever.
 
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vhtje
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:19 am

jsfr wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
redroo wrote:
Snowball in hell chance of getting any investment banker living in Mosman to go to SWZ to catch the LHR or JFK.


Pretty much, the target market for the Sunrise flights lives east of Drummoyne (more like east of the Harbour Bridge).


Not only that, but the advantage of SWZ (no curfews) really doesn’t matter. Why would you invest in a fast convenient non-stop flight to then ruin the whole concept by landing/leaving in the middle of the night and ruining the chance of being functional the next day?

Landing in SYD at around 8pm having a quick bite and going to bed has you in good shape the next morning. Landing at 7/8am, not so good, but still, a quick shower in the office by midday and you can function reasonably until 5/6pm

Land at 2 in the morning and you are completely ruined for the day....

As it is my primary factor of choice going d-u is landing time....


I have done LHR > SYD more times than I can count. It is, literally, in the hundreds of times, always (well, the last 15 years at least) in a premium cabin. I sleep reasonably well onboard.

I have never, ever been anything but completely wrecked upon arrival into SYD. I can get to where I am staying, unpack, have a shower, have a cup of tea, then a three-hour sleep. I then force myself to get up; by now it will be mid-afternoon, and I keep myself awake until at least 21:00 or even better, 22:00.

That whole first day, I feel horrible. Work? Perhaps an email or two, perhaps an online meeting, but actually go into the office? Absolutely no way. I am reasonably fit, but, no way. Thinking anyone can land at 06:30 after a 17+ hr flight and then go on and do a full productive day’s work, is fantasy. I can barely make it through Coles to stock up the fridge.

To be clear, it isn’t lack of sleep that’s the issue, it is disrupted circadian rhythm: I am awake when my body is expecting sleep.

On that first day after arrival, a short sleep, followed by forcing myself to stay awake until a reasonable bedtime, breaks circadian rhythm, so on the second day I’m fine and functioning normally. I know from experience, that if I sleep too long on the day of arrival, it takes too many days for my sleep pattern to return to normal.

QF used to have an early-afternoon departure from London (QF32) which would to arrive into SYD around 20:00. It was perfect, as I would be in bed by midnight. It wasn’t an early start that next day, but at least I could be productive. It did mean a very early start getting to LHR, but not an unbearable one.
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Kent350787
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:38 pm

A350OZ wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
The more i think about it, the more Project Sunrise seems essential to QF international in a post-Covid world if the yields are right, but it's difficult to see ports outside JFK in North America.


I guess ORD (originating from SYD) could be another one - the BNE route was really only due to the lack of range of the 789. But I guess it will be years until they put Chicago back on the map, if ever.


I'd actually typed ORD, then thought more about it. In really good times, yes, but I'm still not clear that the numbers stack up in terms of O&D or strategic advantage. More likely than BOS, but still a long ways away.
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kimshep
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:32 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
kimshep wrote:
There is a difference. :-)

...but considering the total subjectivity of such a claim, it's without a distinction. :-)


Sort of like the specific 'attractions' you mentioned .. ? :rotfl:
 
Opus99
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:49 pm

https://twitter.com/londonairtravel/sta ... 46851?s=21

Decision whether to order 350-1000 has been deferred
 
JohanTally
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:21 am

With all the 77L being parked/scrapped why not go the low capex option and get these birds for a few quid over scrap. Then around 2030 spend the capital on your flagship aircraft of the future.
 
Opus99
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:44 am

JohanTally wrote:
With all the 77L being parked/scrapped why not go the low capex option and get these birds for a few quid over scrap. Then around 2030 spend the capital on your flagship aircraft of the future.

My question is. I thought they had already made the decision to order the A350
 
JohanTally
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:00 am

Opus99 wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
With all the 77L being parked/scrapped why not go the low capex option and get these birds for a few quid over scrap. Then around 2030 spend the capital on your flagship aircraft of the future.

My question is. I thought they had already made the decision to order the A350


They have publicly said that the A35K is the plane for project sunrise going forward but I do wonder if they can actually afford them in the next few years. The project could get scrapped altogether at this point but with the PER-LHR route being the highest yielding route clearly the market exists. Qantas actually helped Boeing in the design process of the 77L and 77W but has yet to pull the trigger on a big twin order from A or B.
 
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:03 am

Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/londonairtravel/status/1364691170077646851?s=21

Decision whether to order 350-1000 has been deferred



Lets get the actual tweet before we go down a rabbit hole of commentary:

"Qantas has delayed the planned resumption of flights from London Heathrow to Australia by a further four months until 31 October 2021."
 
Kent350787
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:16 am

qf2220 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/londonairtravel/status/1364691170077646851?s=21

Decision whether to order 350-1000 has been deferred



Lets get the actual tweet before we go down a rabbit hole of commentary:

"Qantas has delayed the planned resumption of flights from London Heathrow to Australia by a further four months until 31 October 2021."


I read that as LHR-PER, using the 789.

Of course the A35K is deferred until international travel reopens more broadly. Project Sunrise makes sense for QF of the future, but it's hard to see demand until 2023 at the earliest for a possibly tricky launch.
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:54 am

qf2220 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/londonairtravel/status/1364691170077646851?s=21

Decision whether to order 350-1000 has been deferred



Lets get the actual tweet before we go down a rabbit hole of commentary:

"Qantas has delayed the planned resumption of flights from London Heathrow to Australia by a further four months until 31 October 2021."


Two tweets below that one...

https://twitter.com/LondonAirTravel/sta ... 0077646851
"In its half year results, Qantas has also confirmed that all of its Airbus A380 fleet will remain grounded until 30 June 2023 at the earliest. A decision whether to order ultra long range Airbus A350-1000 aircraft has been deferred."

But I was under the impression that had already been announced?
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Opus99
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:35 am

scbriml wrote:
qf2220 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/londonairtravel/status/1364691170077646851?s=21

Decision whether to order 350-1000 has been deferred



Lets get the actual tweet before we go down a rabbit hole of commentary:

"Qantas has delayed the planned resumption of flights from London Heathrow to Australia by a further four months until 31 October 2021."


Two tweets below that one...

https://twitter.com/LondonAirTravel/sta ... 0077646851
"In its half year results, Qantas has also confirmed that all of its Airbus A380 fleet will remain grounded until 30 June 2023 at the earliest. A decision whether to order ultra long range Airbus A350-1000 aircraft has been deferred."

But I was under the impression that had already been announced?

The order deferral? Or whether to order the jet?
 
TeamLH
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:20 am

QF selected the 351 for Sunrise. They deferred the order not the fact that they selected the 351.
 
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Polot
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:33 pm

The order is of course deferred, but QF has to wait to see what the post Covid recovery will be like before deciding whether to continue with Project Sunrise or not. It’s entirely possible (albeit unlikely imho) that the project gets dropped. There is also the question of what revisions Airbus was planning on making to the A350-1000 for QF, and if the appetite is still there to devote money and resources to it. This then circles back to how much the planes will ultimately cost QF (impacting project viability), now that the A350 is not chugging along at 10/mo anymore and is unlikely to be at that rate (and subsequent cost savings) anytime soon.

It’s a bit more complicated then wait until borders open up again. Depending on how long they wait QF may very well reevaluate the 777X just to ensure they are still getting the best value from OEMs.
 
Scotron12
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:21 pm

Hard to predict at the moment as QF has no international flights bookable until November this year (excluding NZ). Even that date is not set in stone.

So, I don't see a big PS A350 order by end of this year. I would assume they would want to measure how much international travel rebounds before doing so.

As for revisiting the 779, the recent delayed deliveries to late 2023, possibly 2024, does not help. Are there compelling reasons to look at the 779 again??
 
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Polot
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:24 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
As for revisiting the 779, the recent delayed deliveries to late 2023, possibly 2024, does not help. Are there compelling reasons to look at the 779 again??

Pre Covid QF wasn’t planning on starting the flights until 2023 anyways. Post covid we are probably looking at 2024-2025 at the earliest.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:26 pm

I wonder if the A350-950F (the A350 based freighter that is under development, with a fuselage length between the A359 and the A3510) is a good foundation to revisit Project Sunrise with something that seats a few more passengers?
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ZK-NBT
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:36 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
I wonder if the A350-950F (the A350 based freighter that is under development, with a fuselage length between the A359 and the A3510) is a good foundation to revisit Project Sunrise with something that seats a few more passengers?


Sunrise is based on the A3510, initially it was the 359 base though.
 
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Polot
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:39 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
I wonder if the A350-950F (the A350 based freighter that is under development, with a fuselage length between the A359 and the A3510) is a good foundation to revisit Project Sunrise with something that seats a few more passengers?


Sunrise is based on the A3510, initially it was the 359 base though.

That was pre A350F freighter though. I can see a passenger model being attractive to pItch QF-it would have more range than the standard -1000 if it is basically a straight shrink. Not sure the time line would work for QF though, although who knows where PS stands after Covid.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: QF - Project Sunrise

Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:09 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
I wonder if the A350-950F (the A350 based freighter that is under development, with a fuselage length between the A359 and the A3510) is a good foundation to revisit Project Sunrise with something that seats a few more passengers?


Sunrise is based on the A3510, initially it was the 359 base though.


There it was just a few lines above my post... I missed that. Thanks for the update.
learning never stops...

FischAutoTechGarten is the full handle and it reflects my interest. It's abbreviated to fit A.net short usernames.
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