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WaywardMemphian
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:40 pm

DartHerald wrote:
37 almost new 787s (not including any awaiting delivery!) looking for new homes! That's not going to help already depressed widebody sales for a while to come, I would imagine. I wonder if BA will seize the opportunity, if the theory that they wanted to buy the airline for its 787'as was correct - or if that horse has already bolted.



We'll there's a weak dollar and as soon as the vaccine takes hold and OMB gone, there should interest in cheap travel to the US. About ten of those could service that next tier of cities under the MSYs and BNAs of the world like MCI, STL, MEM, JAX just in the States plus other destinations worldwide

Interestingly enough Viking River Cruise is now a go with boats being built and cruises being booked with cruises ending and beginning in New Orleans, Memphis, Saint Louis, and St. Paul
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:44 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
I'm sure all of DY's Dreamliners will find new homes, but y'all are right in saying
this will put a dent in new Dreamliner orders for awhile :)

Not just the 787s, but more so for the older A330s. This will be interesting to see, the 1st big lot of 787s up for resale, there were HNA frames resold previously but not at these numbers.
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:44 pm

Sad, but not surprising. I flew Norwegian back in August 2018 from LAX to MAD for just $325. Norwegian gave me the opportunity to celebrate my 30th birthday in Spain - I had been given advice to head to Barcelona which countless people had told me to visit because its simply "the best city in the world". After going, I would have to say that I absolutely agree with that assessment!

As a young adult that typically lacks the means to travel abroad, Norwegian and ill-fated Wow Air (I flew home BCN-KEF-LAX for a similar absurdly cheap fare) afforded me an incredible experience that I otherwise wouldn't have had, and as such will always cherish. Flying across the pond on a comfortable Norwegian 787 meant I arrived in to MAD Terminal 2 rested without jetlag, and from there it was an easy bus ride over to Terminal 4 for my connecting flight to BCN on Iberia - another great airline. MAD Terminal 4 is so beautiful, too! I always figured those dirt cheap Norwegian and Wow Air fares were way too good to be true and wouldn't last, so I am very glad I took advantage of them when I could.
Last edited by SurfandSnow on Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
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Polot
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:48 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
I'm sure all of DY's Dreamliners will find new homes, but y'all are right in saying
this will put a dent in new Dreamliner orders for awhile :)

Not just the 787s, but more so for the older A330s. This will be interesting to see, the 1st big lot of 787s up for resale, there were HNA frames resold previously but not at these numbers.

And new A330neos, and new A350s. Having a large fleet suddenly available that has full commonality with each other down to existing configuration puts a dent in all wide body sales.
 
guillermohs
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:57 pm

windian425 wrote:
Does this help IAG with Level? Or is Level toast anyway..


Level will disappear once Air Europa is owned by IAG. I foresee the group will use UX's reasonable brand recognition (and Dreamliners) for a niche which was intended in the first place for Level but failed to fulfill.

As for the topic, sad news for transatlantic aviation. Reduced fares are very much needed in this market.
 
drdisque
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:04 pm

I think as long as they can resume international flying, this provides UA a good opportunity to replace the bulk of its 767 fleet at a low cost.

Another potential taker could be Austrian as it might be a smart move to replace their entire Long-Haul fleet with a selection of these frames.

A more out of the box opportunity would be IndiGo with the potential to start routes to Europe and potentially North America if bilaterals allow.

I will miss Norwegian at ORD - they were bar none the cheapest way to Europe and the onboard experience was acceptable. I was able to book my wife on ORD-LGW a few years ago to see her brother's new baby but I couldn't go because of work.

I wonder if they will re-consider at least using the MAXes Transatlantic in a few years. I know the initial destinations didn't do too well because they were small markets but I think that flying to larger markets in the Northeast with the MAXes might stand a chance.
 
Delta777Jet
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:05 pm

I hope that Condor will take them to replace 767-300ER, a mix of -8 and -9 would be a nice fit to replace the aging 767 fleet. And if the pride is right why not !
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
Ronaldo747
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:14 pm

Would love to see LH group take the 787 up to replace the A343. 767. 777-200 and older 330.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:29 pm

DartHerald wrote:
37 almost new 787s (not including any awaiting delivery!) looking for new homes! That's not going to help already depressed widebody sales for a while to come, I would imagine. I wonder if BA will seize the opportunity, if the theory that they wanted to buy the airline for its 787'as was correct - or if that horse has already bolted.


I think they're not looking for new planes at the moment, given that they just got rid of their whole fleet of 747s. I don't think new 787s will be idle for long, though.

I have flown in both Norweigan and BA 787s and I have to say that Norweigan was far better - they looked brand new with state of the art entertainment systems, the BA 787 really surprised me by being old and shabby.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:32 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
Sad, but not surprising. I flew Norwegian back in August 2018 from LAX to MAD for just $325. .


I paid 100$ from Oakland to London. My ticket to SFO from Des Moines cost more than that. I'm going to miss Norweigan - it was the cheapest and one of the best. I also once experienced Wow back when it was called Iceland Express. That wasn't such a great experience - it was very tiring to have to get up in the middle of the night to stand in a security line and the service was extremely basic.
 
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klm617
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:44 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
There are many transatlantic markets where people want to fly at non-trivial fares. Unfortunately many of those routes do not have enough people to fill an A330 or B787. Thus, Norwegian went for the likes of NYC, BOS, IAD, MIA, ORD, SFO and LAX - markets which would have reliable demand. Norwegian did not try flying to Montana for a reason



But that plan failed. There are many unserved markets that never got consideration. Demand doesn't equate to profitability when you are flying people around at less than break even fares. Certainly places like ATL, CLT, CLE, DTW, MSP, STL, MKE, and the like could support 3 weekly 787 flights with no issue and they could have commanded a higher ticket price and less airport fees. Of course they are not going to fly to Montana.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Ryga
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:46 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Ryga wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I’d expect the 787s will find their way to smaller airlines and charter operators. I’m thinking of airlines like the TUI group, LOT or Air Europa. They could also end up at smaller airlines with small long haul routes that tend to lease A330s and 767s.


TUI *were* looking at getting more 789, and potentially getting rid of the 788 in place of the -9.

However in this climate, and the difference in engine options I don’t think it’s likely just yet.


NEOS in Italy is affiliated with TUI and has already picked a couple 787s from Norwegian



TUI were bought out of NEOS back in 2004.

NEOS operate RR only engines on their -9 fleet.
AA AM BA BM BY DP DY EK MH PG RJ TK U2 VS Y2 ZB Z2 5J 9W

738 752 762ER/3ER 77W 788/9
A319/20/21 A332/3
E190
ATR 72-600
Jetstream 32
CRJ200ER
 
aviator2000
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:49 pm

I flew BCN-OAK in 2018 during my first trip to Californa. Excellent crew and service, sad to see them leave.
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:57 pm

As a now former DY 787 pilot, I’m saddened by this news although it wasn’t surprising. It was the best flying job I’ve had so far during my career.

Great atmosphere in the company, nice colleagues, and every time we landed somewhere, it was like a small vacation for 2-3 days. Truly my dream job.
 
onwFan
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:07 pm

guillermohs wrote:
windian425 wrote:
Does this help IAG with Level? Or is Level toast anyway..


Level will disappear once Air Europa is owned by IAG. I foresee the group will use UX's reasonable brand recognition (and Dreamliners) for a niche which was intended in the first place for Level but failed to fulfill.

As for the topic, sad news for transatlantic aviation. Reduced fares are very much needed in this market.

Agree. In fact if I am not mistaken, Level was itself IAG’s response to Norwegian Long Haul. Given that the BA/IAG airlines’ routes had the most overlap with Norwegian Long Haul, I am sure BA is heaving a huge sigh of relief. Currently, the only part of Level that is left is at BCN and I am sure folding it into UX looks like a natural step. Don’t see the point of a 4-fleet sub-brand given the times...

On the bright side, I hope this means BA will be encouraged to resume/re-launch secondary US destinations like AUS, SAN, SJC, BNA, MSY, PDX, etc.
 
aviatorcraig
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:27 pm

So no more Edinburgh to Newburgh Stewart on 737s then? Maybe someone else will pick up this vast, now untapped market. :duck:
707 727 Caravelle Comet Concorde Dash-7 DC-9 DC-10 One-Eleven Trident Tristar Tu-134 VC-10 Viscount plus boring stuff!
 
aviator2000
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:45 pm

onwFan wrote:
guillermohs wrote:
windian425 wrote:
Does this help IAG with Level? Or is Level toast anyway..


Level will disappear once Air Europa is owned by IAG. I foresee the group will use UX's reasonable brand recognition (and Dreamliners) for a niche which was intended in the first place for Level but failed to fulfill.

As for the topic, sad news for transatlantic aviation. Reduced fares are very much needed in this market.

Agree. In fact if I am not mistaken, Level was itself IAG’s response to Norwegian Long Haul. Given that the BA/IAG airlines’ routes had the most overlap with Norwegian Long Haul, I am sure BA is heaving a huge sigh of relief. Currently, the only part of Level that is left is at BCN and I am sure folding it into UX looks like a natural step. Don’t see the point of a 4-fleet sub-brand given the times...

On the bright side, I hope this means BA will be encouraged to resume/re-launch secondary US destinations like AUS, SAN, SJC, BNA, MSY, PDX, etc.

I'd expect quite the opposite. British Airways and IAG as a whole started many new routes in order to put Norwegain Air out of business, as they perceived it as a threat. With Norwegian long haul now gone, BA will retreat even further, as they only have to operate those routes which make them an important amount of money.
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:50 pm

af773atmsp wrote:
Even though they didn't make it to MSP with scheduled flights (though at one point in better times there was talk of them coming here) at least they diverted here once.


Haha there was so much crap floating around internally and obviously externally as well. There was a rumor of direct flights from Europe to Hawaii for many years and it turned into a joke after some time.

“So..... when are we inaugurating OSL-HNL?” ;)

Or Scandinavia-cape town, Seoul, Hong Kong, Tokyo and more
 
Galwayman
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:55 pm

Lavdumper wrote:
I realize it will likely NEVER happen, but if MOL at Ryanair ever wanted to execute on his once-discussed longhaul LCC dream, now would be the time to do it. You have cheap airplanes, cheap crews wanting to work and a leisure market likely to rebound well once the Covid vaccine is widely distributed.... Now would be his chance to do it.


It really is the perfect opportunity for a well financed investor with strong cost discipline ......
 
Galwayman
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:02 pm

AirPacific747 wrote:
As a now former DY 787 pilot, I’m saddened by this news although it wasn’t surprising. It was the best flying job I’ve had so far during my career.

Great atmosphere in the company, nice colleagues, and every time we landed somewhere, it was like a small vacation for 2-3 days. Truly my dream job.


Hope you find a new flying job soon mate , they were a great airline to fly with , great friendly attitude from all the staff , a real breath of fresh air , nice aircraft
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:04 pm

aviatorcraig wrote:
So no more Edinburgh to Newburgh Stewart on 737s then? Maybe someone else will pick up this vast, now untapped market. :duck:


LOL, hasn't Ryanair toyed with the idea of transatlantic service? I honestly could see them serving the U.S. via cheap airports like BWI, ISP, MHT, PVD and/or SWF that could be easily reached from smaller European airports like EDI and SNN. Thanks to its geography, couldn't EDI function as a dirt cheap gateway to Europe? Norwegian's p2p 737 services never made sense, but an established European operator like Ryanair or easyJet might be able to connect folks through places like EDI or draw upon local FFer bases...
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:04 pm

Galwayman wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
As a now former DY 787 pilot, I’m saddened by this news although it wasn’t surprising. It was the best flying job I’ve had so far during my career.

Great atmosphere in the company, nice colleagues, and every time we landed somewhere, it was like a small vacation for 2-3 days. Truly my dream job.


Hope you find a new flying job soon mate , they were a great airline to fly with , great friendly attitude from all the staff , a real breath of fresh air , nice aircraft


Thanks for the kind words. :) I think it could be a few years. Used to fly the 320 but my rating expired a long time ago. Now I’m “stuck” with the 787/777. Longhaul recovery will take longer than short haul.
 
94717
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:11 pm

I consider a model using A321s transatlantic could lower the risk in the future. I think the new generation NBs will change the market dramatically.
 
Lootess
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:20 pm

Basically their explosive transtlantic business model was playing with fire during this pandemic and now it's burned the house down. See Icelandair previously trying secondary US markets.
 
Detroit313
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:20 pm

Good news for legacy airlines.
 
marcogr12
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:24 pm

Would it be a good opportunity for FI to get some 787s to replace its aging 767s?
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
Flanker7
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:41 pm

georgiabill wrote:
Would KLM be a candidate to pick up a few of Norwegians 789'S assuming the price was to good to refuse?

No , all klm 787 are GE powered and re-engine them plus the cost of refurbish is quite costly.
Flying blue only if possible
 
socalflyer00
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:49 pm

with Delta loving a good deal and there being a need to replace some of the 767 flying over the next couple years, is there anyway Delta would consider a deal with the lessors for these787 frames?
 
MON
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:50 pm

At least at one point I thought the Norwegian group had an air leasing arm that included circa 100 B737s and circa 100 A32X in order?

Were the 787s also leased off another part of the Norwegian group of companies or were they leased from totally independent leasesers? If it was the former then the Norwegian group are still going to have very significant 787 liability?
 
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Crosswind
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:53 pm

aviator2000 wrote:
I'd expect quite the opposite. British Airways and IAG as a whole started many new routes in order to put Norwegain Air out of business, as they perceived it as a threat. With Norwegian long haul now gone, BA will retreat even further, as they only have to operate those routes which make them an important amount of money.


The only routes that BA started that were Norwegian-spoilers were OAK and FLL. Neither did well and both were ended well before anyone had heard of COVID. Infact I think Norwegian were in the process of moving their own services over to SFO and MIA. Everywhere else BA flew in competition was served long before Norwegian started any service.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:10 pm

It is sad to see long haul LCCs folding. I thought Norwegian would fare better than others. It was nice to watch their MAXes over Atlantic. I hope they will give another shot once XLR enters service.
All posts are just opinions.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:11 pm

MON wrote:
At least at one point I thought the Norwegian group had an air leasing arm that included circa 100 B737s and circa 100 A32X in order?

Were the 787s also leased off another part of the Norwegian group of companies or were they leased from totally independent leasesers? If it was the former then the Norwegian group are still going to have very significant 787 liability?

artic aviation leasing was shut down a while ago as norwegian was busy burning the furniture to keep the house warm
 
jbs2886
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:17 pm

Crosswind wrote:
aviator2000 wrote:
I'd expect quite the opposite. British Airways and IAG as a whole started many new routes in order to put Norwegain Air out of business, as they perceived it as a threat. With Norwegian long haul now gone, BA will retreat even further, as they only have to operate those routes which make them an important amount of money.


The only routes that BA started that were Norwegian-spoilers were OAK and FLL. Neither did well and both were ended well before anyone had heard of COVID. Infact I think Norwegian were in the process of moving their own services over to SFO and MIA. Everywhere else BA flew in competition was served long before Norwegian started any service.


They also launched LGW-JFK.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:23 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
aviatorcraig wrote:
So no more Edinburgh to Newburgh Stewart on 737s then? Maybe someone else will pick up this vast, now untapped market. :duck:


LOL, hasn't Ryanair toyed with the idea of transatlantic service? I honestly could see them serving the U.S. via cheap airports like BWI, ISP, MHT, PVD and/or SWF that could be easily reached from smaller European airports like EDI and SNN. Thanks to its geography, couldn't EDI function as a dirt cheap gateway to Europe? Norwegian's p2p 737 services never made sense, but an established European operator like Ryanair or easyJet might be able to connect folks through places like EDI or draw upon local FFer bases...


The disadvantage of Edinburgh is that it's in the UK and therefor subject to the British APD. This isn't so much a problem on short haul within Europe as the APD for such short flights is negligible, but TATL flights are longer and therefor subject to a higher APD. That makes they can't offer the fares as low as they want them to be.

It makes more sense flying to those destinations from Ireland which doesn't have any aviation tax. Dublin is already one of their largest bases, they could offer those flights out of there. In fact, when Norwegian flew to those destinations only their flights out of Dublin had good load factors. Flights from Edinburgh to the same destinations on the same days were always more expensive than flights from Dublin, the difference is in the APD.

So while I mostly agree with your statement, I think Dublin would be the dirt cheap gateway to Europe instead of Edinburgh. Tax reasons.

Ryanair officially doesn't offer connecting flights, however they do offer "arranged self-transfers". The total fare is just the fare of both flights added up, officially it's two separate bookings and you need to check in for each flight individually. In the case of Dublin, where there's no aviation tax, this is a benefit.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:31 pm

klm617 wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
There are many transatlantic markets where people want to fly at non-trivial fares. Unfortunately many of those routes do not have enough people to fill an A330 or B787. Thus, Norwegian went for the likes of NYC, BOS, IAD, MIA, ORD, SFO and LAX - markets which would have reliable demand. Norwegian did not try flying to Montana for a reason



But that plan failed. There are many unserved markets that never got consideration. Demand doesn't equate to profitability when you are flying people around at less than break even fares. Certainly places like ATL, CLT, CLE, DTW, MSP, STL, MKE, and the like could support 3 weekly 787 flights with no issue and they could have commanded a higher ticket price and less airport fees. Of course they are not going to fly to Montana.

Like it or not, NYC, BOS, IAD, MIA, ORD, SFO, and LAX have two way feed. You have Americans going one way to visit Europe and Europeans going the other. Nobody is going to ATL, CLT, CLE, DTW (what you really mean), MSP, STL, or MKE for tourism. So it’s all one way feed.

Sure there are a lot of seats in those markets already, but it’s also because that is where people want to go.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:33 pm

Someone83 wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
I take it the 787 fleet is not in any way "owned" by Norwegian and will simply be returned to lessors or sold on by banks holding Norwegian up ?


It is a mix. Majority is leased, but quite a few in owned


I take it that the 'owned' aircraft were actually 'encumbered' (mortgaged)? meaning they'll be posssesed by the banks if that's the case.
 
ILikeTrains
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:40 pm

socalflyer00 wrote:
with Delta loving a good deal and there being a need to replace some of the 767 flying over the next couple years, is there anyway Delta would consider a deal with the lessors for these787 frames?


Thats what I was thinking earlier. They could still sell their 767’s now for freighter conversions, and get their hands on these 787s for cheap.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:48 pm

ILikeTrains wrote:
socalflyer00 wrote:
with Delta loving a good deal and there being a need to replace some of the 767 flying over the next couple years, is there anyway Delta would consider a deal with the lessors for these787 frames?


Thats what I was thinking earlier. They could still sell their 767’s now for freighter conversions, and get their hands on these 787s for cheap.


Ugh. OK, I'm on board with DL getting 787s and I think they ultimately will. But, they aren't getting them now. It would require substantial expense on DL's part to (1) add an entirely new fleet type with training, resources, etc., (2) refurb the aircraft, and (3) create immediate increased expenditure for aircraft replacing aircraft that are in large part paid off. This requires significant cash to be spent now when they are just trying to stay afloat. Could it happen? Yes, but I think it is incredibly unlikely.

I think the likely home for these aircraft are on a piecemeal basis with those carriers that have 787s (TUI, Neos, etc.) or those airlines that are smaller and rely on outsourcing a lot of what DL handles in-house (Icelandair, Condor, etc.). In these situations the incremental cost of adding the aircraft is must less than with DL.
 
CRJ200flyer
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Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:33 pm

Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:12 pm

ILikeTrains wrote:
socalflyer00 wrote:
with Delta loving a good deal and there being a need to replace some of the 767 flying over the next couple years, is there anyway Delta would consider a deal with the lessors for these787 frames?


Thats what I was thinking earlier. They could still sell their 767’s now for freighter conversions, and get their hands on these 787s for cheap.


I seriously doubt this. They seem pretty invested in their A350/330/330neo fleet strategy at this point. The A330neo can easily serve nearly their entire route structure with similar efficiencies to the 787. Why bother increasing fleet complexity when they’ve shown during the pandemic they’re trying to decrease fleet types as much as possible (even shedding young 737-700s!)?
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:14 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
I think the likely home for these aircraft are on a piecemeal basis with those carriers that have 787s (TUI, Neos, etc.) or those airlines that are smaller and rely on outsourcing a lot of what DL handles in-house (Icelandair, Condor, etc.). In these situations the incremental cost of adding the aircraft is must less than with DL.


Agreed.

Another wildcard might be Scoot, the Singapore Airlines low-cost subsidiary. They already got a fleet of 787s that are more or less similar to those of Norwegian, so no need to refurbish anything. They're familiar with the aircraft type and crews can be picked up anywhere (including the former Norwegian crews). It would offer great expansion possibilities for Scoot to markets such as Japan and Australia, and maybe their return to Europe.
 
Trk1
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:15 pm

This is good news. Flying flights that lose money only hurts all other airlines. This airline never Ade a profit on the North Atlantic. Good riddance
 
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Polot
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Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:28 pm

CRJ200flyer wrote:
ILikeTrains wrote:
socalflyer00 wrote:
with Delta loving a good deal and there being a need to replace some of the 767 flying over the next couple years, is there anyway Delta would consider a deal with the lessors for these787 frames?


Thats what I was thinking earlier. They could still sell their 767’s now for freighter conversions, and get their hands on these 787s for cheap.


I seriously doubt this. They seem pretty invested in their A350/330/330neo fleet strategy at this point. The A330neo can easily serve nearly their entire route structure with similar efficiencies to the 787. Why bother increasing fleet complexity when they’ve shown during the pandemic they’re trying to decrease fleet types as much as possible (even shedding young 737-700s!)?

While I don’t see DL taking the planes it all comes down to price. Yes DL has invested in the A350/A330neo, but that comes at new plane pricing. If the price is right a fleet of ~30 used 787s (which has comparable fuel burn to those Airbuses) can be attractive and offset the increase in fleet complexity, especially if they use it to help eliminate another type (767) faster. Bonus points: DY’s 787 have RR engine just like the A330neo.
Last edited by Polot on Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5467
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:29 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
There are many transatlantic markets where people want to fly at non-trivial fares. Unfortunately many of those routes do not have enough people to fill an A330 or B787. Thus, Norwegian went for the likes of NYC, BOS, IAD, MIA, ORD, SFO and LAX - markets which would have reliable demand. Norwegian did not try flying to Montana for a reason



But that plan failed. There are many unserved markets that never got consideration. Demand doesn't equate to profitability when you are flying people around at less than break even fares. Certainly places like ATL, CLT, CLE, DTW, MSP, STL, MKE, and the like could support 3 weekly 787 flights with no issue and they could have commanded a higher ticket price and less airport fees. Of course they are not going to fly to Montana.

Like it or not, NYC, BOS, IAD, MIA, ORD, SFO, and LAX have two way feed. You have Americans going one way to visit Europe and Europeans going the other. Nobody is going to ATL, CLT, CLE, DTW (what you really mean), MSP, STL, or MKE for tourism. So it’s all one way feed.

Sure there are a lot of seats in those markets already, but it’s also because that is where people want to go.


Yes but even with that logic the business plan failed. Maybe it's time to try something else. There is a lot of VFR traffic in both directions across the Atlantic in the markets I suggested. We know the big boys failed so next time maybe try the second string markets with little or no LCC competitions where these LCC carriers can call the shots rather than having to play the game by the rules..
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Capricorn
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:11 pm

Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:31 pm

Like another poster I see LOT and DE as the most likely option for DY's 787 fleet to find new homes. Maybe NH as I have read that they want to start a 787 based LCC similar to JL's ZIPAIR. I don't see the need at LHG as per Wiki they have an order backlog of 66 WB's a sufficient amount to replace what is being retired. Maybe IAG as they probably could use some more 789s down the road.
 
RexBanner
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:37 am

Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:47 pm

guillermohs wrote:
windian425 wrote:
Does this help IAG with Level? Or is Level toast anyway..
As for the topic, sad news for transatlantic aviation. Reduced fares are very much needed in this market.


Needed for those with less money but not at all realistic as a business proposition. Which is why it failed.
 
GSP psgr
Posts: 765
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:09 am

Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:48 pm

DartHerald wrote:
37 almost new 787s (not including any awaiting delivery!) looking for new homes! That's not going to help already depressed widebody sales for a while to come, I would imagine. I wonder if BA will seize the opportunity, if the theory that they wanted to buy the airline for its 787'as was correct - or if that horse has already bolted.


On the other side of the Atlantic, maybe JetBlue or Southwest if the prices get low enough? Moreso Southwest, as JetBlue seems committed to long range 321s as their transatlantic aircraft of choice. Unlikely, but I could definitely see a BWI transatlantic operation making money, along with some selected other routes-mostly their hubs to LGW. If Southwest ever wanted to get into the 787 game cheaply, this might be it.
 
georgiabill
Posts: 1274
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:53 pm

Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:21 pm

A long shot but maybe a carrier like CM acquires 3 or 4 used DY 788'S uses them on higher demand routes and when international VFR traffic starts to recover they use them to try PTY-LHR or PTY-CDG might be worth a try for them considering the connecting opportunities at PTY.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1135
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:26 pm

Really sad news. Another setback for Gatwick.
 
debonair
Posts: 4203
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:50 pm

Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:29 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
NEOS ... is affiliated with TUI and has already picked a couple 787s from Norwegian


Not true! Back in January 2004, Alpitour bought all of TUI Group's shares in NEOS!

Btw. will this be the end for NORWEGIAN LONG HAUL AS and NORWEGIAN AIR UK Ltd , IATA-code DU & DI? Without any aircraft left in their fleet, there is no need for an own, independent AOC, right!?
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 1379
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Norwegian Ends Plans to Fly Longhaul

Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:32 pm

I'm wondering if there might still be a reason to hang onto Norwegian Air UK - just in case there's a desire to fly between Gatwick and either UK domestic or non-EU/EEA destinations in Europe in the next few years. How costly would it be to keep one aircraft on the G- register and a UK AOC ?

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