Another victim of COVID, low cost Atlantic service. Sad.

> Norwegian Air Shuttle will abandon its attempt to crack the long-haul air market as the low-cost carrier laid out plans to exit bankruptcy protection by all but wiping out its existing shareholders, reducing debt significantly, and raising fresh capital.

https://www.ft.com/content/3278d456-ce4 ... e24f749d32

And a link direct from Norwegian:

https://media.uk.norwegian.com/pressrel ... rk-3064682

A pity for their LH crews and staff.

Shuttle

37 almost new 787s (not including any awaiting delivery!) looking for new homes! That's not going to help already depressed widebody sales for a while to come, I would imagine. I wonder if BA will seize the opportunity, if the theory that they wanted to buy the airline for its 787'as was correct - or if that horse has already bolted.

IAG wanting to buy Norwegian was in pre Covid times, when demand for long haul travel was strong and they wanted to remove a competitor flying long haul from London
IAG have achieved their aim, without paying for it

I appreciate that, and said as much, but the most go-ahead businesses are the ones that seize opportunities at what seem to be unfavourable times - think Ryanair! It just depends on who has the nerve or vision. Maybe Emirates will take them - the 789s at least - and cancel a bunch of 777Xs?

DartHerald wrote:

I appreciate that, and said as much, but the most go-ahead businesses are the ones that seize opportunities at what seem to be unfavourable times - think Ryanair! It just depends on who has the nerve or vision. Maybe Emirates will take them - the 789s at least - and cancel a bunch of 777Xs?

When was the last time Emirates took second-hand aircraft?

I take it the 787 fleet is not in any way "owned" by Norwegian and will simply be returned to lessors or sold on by banks holding Norwegian up ?

JannEejit wrote:

I take it the 787 fleet is not in any way "owned" by Norwegian and will simply be returned to lessors or sold on by banks holding Norwegian up ?

If these are just lease terminations in restructuring NAS won't really have any say where the aircraft go: that will be up to the lessors to remarket. Eight 787-8 and 29 787-9?

Such a shame. Here in the states, people get all riled up about Norwegian, but I am pro-free market and I'm sad to see this. Most of their SFO flights had yet to move over from OAK, or had just moved, when this happened. Many of the routes like ATH were to start in summer of 2020, but never did, obviously. I think the 787-8s only flew there for about 2 months or less before the plug was pulled on SFO, never shot one. I enjoyed working with the "Red Nose" crews, very cool bunch had some fun on the radio. Best of luck to them all.

I’d expect the 787s will find their way to smaller airlines and charter operators. I’m thinking of airlines like the TUI group, LOT or Air Europa. They could also end up at smaller airlines with small long haul routes that tend to lease A330s and 767s.

Could British Airways get a batch to retire high-time Boeing 777-200ERs? A number of them are over 100,000 hours and even the RR frames are around 90,000, although most are fully owned. Lufthansa could also speed up subsidiary fleet renewal as well.

A potential wild card could be Bamboo Airways, if they can change the engines to GE.

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

I’d expect the 787s will find their way to smaller airlines and charter operators. I’m thinking of airlines like the TUI group, LOT or Air Europa. They could also end up at smaller airlines with small long haul routes that tend to lease A330s and 767s.

TUI *were* looking at getting more 789, and potentially getting rid of the 788 in place of the -9.

However in this climate, and the difference in engine options I don’t think it’s likely just yet.

Ryga wrote:

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

I’d expect the 787s will find their way to smaller airlines and charter operators. I’m thinking of airlines like the TUI group, LOT or Air Europa. They could also end up at smaller airlines with small long haul routes that tend to lease A330s and 767s.

TUI *were* looking at getting more 789, and potentially getting rid of the 788 in place of the -9.

However in this climate, and the difference in engine options I don’t think it’s likely just yet.

NEOS in Italy is affiliated with TUI and has already picked a couple 787s from Norwegian

What's the breakdown between 787-8 and -9s? I suppose it will be quite a different story when it comes to finding new homes for -8s and -9s - is anyone still taking on -8s these days? They seem to be sharing the fate that almost all smallest siblings of an airliner family meet as soon as larger aircraft within the family become available.

Why the comments on engines , with power by the hour and maintenance packages these days mixed engine fleets aren’t really a barrier .
What is the barrier right now is the economic near depression, and general employment (Lack of) simply devastating the industry.
In the case of the UK the new ownership rules revised operating and bi-laterals have compound those problems even further.

vfw614 wrote:

What's the breakdown between 787-8 and -9s? I suppose it will be quite a different story when it comes to finding new homes for -8s and -9s - is anyone still taking on -8s these days? They seem to be sharing the fate that almost all smallest siblings of an airliner family meet as soon as larger aircraft within the family become available.

8s remain in production United American and BA received some quite recently

So sad for Norwegian Gatwick operations to end like this. They expanded the market from the USA to several places in Europe from many cities ranging from LAX to Austin to JFK. Sorry to see you go.

Would KLM be a candidate to pick up a few of Norwegians 789'S assuming the price was to good to refuse?

georgiabill wrote:

Would KLM be a candidate to pick up a few of Norwegians 789'S assuming the price was to good to refuse?

I'd say anyone/everyone could be in the market for future ops or to replace current fleets. But I would say, this would be a great opportunity for EK to jump in and find some smaller planes.

Maybe this will finally swing DL into getting some 787s. Maybe a lease deal on 787s and an order for the max.

I guess Norwegian can always keep their B788 to fly Scandinavia - Gran Canaria Islands and Malaga routes to compete with SAS! Of course we have to wait for the end of pandemic first.

aemoreira1981 wrote:

Could British Airways get a batch to retire high-time Boeing 777-200ERs? A number of them are over 100,000 hours and even the RR frames are around 90,000, although most are fully owned. Lufthansa could also speed up subsidiary fleet renewal as well.

A potential wild card could be Bamboo Airways, if they can change the engines to GE.

I think it makes sense for airlines like AA or BA to pick up some B789s to replace B777-200ERs.. But there are conversion cost to bring the cabin to the airline specific standard, and the said airlines also needs strong finance back up. Neither are in the position to do so.

So maybe some Asian state owned airlines that has the strong government backings and will pay for national pride to pick up some cheap frames? If I have to choose one airline, I would choose Thai or Malaysian as possible candidate. Both are in deep trouble and may not exist by quarter ends. So it seems no chance they would pick up the plane, at least not in the finance trouble they are in. Yet, they are more likely to be the one which can afford it as their government will make sure there is a flag carrier (either a new airline or a clean airline reborn through the ashes of current one). Used B789 frames could be ideal start-up fleet.

Otherwise I don't know whom else could afford or be willing to take over.

Chasensfo wrote:

Such a shame. Here in the states, people get all riled up about Norwegian, but I am pro-free market and I'm sad to see this. Most of their SFO flights had yet to move over from OAK, or had just moved, when this happened. Many of the routes like ATH were to start in summer of 2020, but never did, obviously. I think the 787-8s only flew there for about 2 months or less before the plug was pulled on SFO, never shot one. I enjoyed working with the "Red Nose" crews, very cool bunch had some fun on the radio. Best of luck to them all.

Pretty sure they flew ATH-JFK 4 or 5 times weekly in summer 2019.

vfw614 wrote:

What's the breakdown between 787-8 and -9s? I suppose it will be quite a different story when it comes to finding new homes for -8s and -9s - is anyone still taking on -8s these days? They seem to be sharing the fate that almost all smallest siblings of an airliner family meet as soon as larger aircraft within the family become available.

While the -9 will probably be easier to place there is a big difference between deciding on a -8 at used aircraft pricing vs the price you have to pay to pick up a brand new one.

rutankrd wrote:

vfw614 wrote:

What's the breakdown between 787-8 and -9s? I suppose it will be quite a different story when it comes to finding new homes for -8s and -9s - is anyone still taking on -8s these days? They seem to be sharing the fate that almost all smallest siblings of an airliner family meet as soon as larger aircraft within the family become available.

8s remain in production United American and BA received some quite recently

Sure. But when was the last time someone actually ordered one?

Although given the current state of the market, "outdated" aircraft concepts sort of see a renaissance - Lufthansa, for example, is operating almost all their A340s as these are the smallest longhaul planes in the inventory while parking 747-8, A380s, A330s. A year ago, those A340s were already flying coke cans.

With the RR engine debacle and now COVID, its a bitter sweet goodbye to Norwegian. They were excellent in pushing down TATL airfare.

I realize it will likely NEVER happen, but if MOL at Ryanair ever wanted to execute on his once-discussed longhaul LCC dream, now would be the time to do it. You have cheap airplanes, cheap crews wanting to work and a leisure market likely to rebound well once the Covid vaccine is widely distributed.... Now would be his chance to do it.

rutankrd wrote:

vfw614 wrote:

What's the breakdown between 787-8 and -9s? I suppose it will be quite a different story when it comes to finding new homes for -8s and -9s - is anyone still taking on -8s these days? They seem to be sharing the fate that almost all smallest siblings of an airliner family meet as soon as larger aircraft within the family become available.

8s remain in production United American and BA received some quite recently

United has not taken a -8 in years.

Lavdumper wrote:

I realize it will likely NEVER happen, but if MOL at Ryanair ever wanted to execute on his once-discussed longhaul LCC dream, now would be the time to do it. You have cheap airplanes, cheap crews wanting to work and a leisure market likely to rebound well once the Covid vaccine is widely distributed.... Now would be his chance to do it.

It's really tricky to make money on and he knows it. The only places it works are from niche airport to niche airport on a less than daily basis, anything else takes you up against network carriers with way more options over hubs. Norwegian was up against all the transatlantic network carriers and took them on head on, bleeding money as they did. The fixed costs are too similar in long haul, aircraft utilisation is often the same as are cabin crew and ground costs. On short haul the advantage can be getting one more rotation out of your aircraft per day vs. the legacies, but flying LGW-SIN, that's not an option and that's why it never came close to working.

Two of the B789s are owned by Arkia, which originally planned to operate the frames themselves. Could they use those frames to open up TLV-JFK, which pre-pandemic was a route where you could never have too much capacity? After COVID, there will be three carriers on the route plus United from EWR. Two frames are all they’ll need for this route to run daily. (Arkia also owns two Thai Airways B788.)

Icelandair could also go with the B788 for belly cargo on certain routes and sell their B763s for freighter conversion, also being finally able to dispose of 30-year old B752 freighters, and their fleet would be newer B752, B788s, and B38/9M, eventually just 737 MAXs and 787s.

Such a bummer. Love to see the airlines come in and break up the status quo, however, the expense of running a profitable airline is immense.

rutankrd wrote:

vfw614 wrote:

What's the breakdown between 787-8 and -9s? I suppose it will be quite a different story when it comes to finding new homes for -8s and -9s - is anyone still taking on -8s these days? They seem to be sharing the fate that almost all smallest siblings of an airliner family meet as soon as larger aircraft within the family become available.

8s remain in production United American and BA received some quite recently

United has received no 787-8s recently. All deliveries (12 total, placed by Continental Airlines) were already delivered to the airline with the last frame delivered in 2014.

Shame. I few them TATL a few times pre-Covid. Decent price and good service. I wasn't a fan of their crew uniforms but that's a pretty trivial critique.

chonetsao wrote:

I guess Norwegian can always keep their B788 to fly Scandinavia - Gran Canaria Islands and Malaga routes to compete with SAS! Of course we have to wait for the end of pandemic first.

It wouldn't make sense to keep so few 787s as another type. A dozen 787s doesn't make sense. Splitting it between six 787-8s and six 787-9s would be even worse. There are several successful examples of European narrowbody LCCs. Let NAS give that a try.

Not a huge loss, frankly. DY was OK on TATL/long haul, but not radically different from the network carriers. If you factored in all the add ons, your ticket price was almost always identical to the legacy carriers, if that's how you booked your ticket. If you didn't need to check a bag or eat their food/drink on their flights, then it could be cheaper. It was an illogical, ridiculous business model and it was failing before COVID19. It is surprising it took this long for this development to happen.

skipness1E wrote:

Lavdumper wrote:

I realize it will likely NEVER happen, but if MOL at Ryanair ever wanted to execute on his once-discussed longhaul LCC dream, now would be the time to do it. You have cheap airplanes, cheap crews wanting to work and a leisure market likely to rebound well once the Covid vaccine is widely distributed.... Now would be his chance to do it.

It's really tricky to make money on and he knows it. The only places it works are from niche airport to niche airport on a less than daily basis, anything else takes you up against network carriers with way more options over hubs. Norwegian was up against all the transatlantic network carriers and took them on head on, bleeding money as they did. The fixed costs are too similar in long haul, aircraft utilisation is often the same as are cabin crew and ground costs. On short haul the advantage can be getting one more rotation out of your aircraft per day vs. the legacies, but flying LGW-SIN, that's not an option and that's why it never came close to working.

long haul is only viable out of the summer season because of the business class cabins Ryanair did a huge review of trying long haul and the math is that so much of the cost of long haul flying is aircraft and fuel which LCC's cannot get a discount on and economy fares in the off season are so crap you need a network to get the business contracts which fill premium cabins to make it profitable

[photoid][/photoid]

Shuttle wrote:

And a link direct from Norwegian:

https://media.uk.norwegian.com/pressrel ... rk-3064682

A pity for their LH crews and staff.

Shuttle

None of the crews actually worked for Norwegian and they were temp workers with bad benefits compared to their peers...

Sad. At CDG they had introduced flights to destinations that were previously unavailable on a non-stop basis (Denver, Orlando...and a new destination was supposed to begin, Austin), but I'm sure AF-KLM are happy about this.

Sad news, though probably the only rational choice for the airline to make. One of my favorite transatlantic flights was from Olso to LA one December evening. Taking off in total winter darkness from Oslo and then catching up to the setting sun, flying for 10 beautiful hours to California. Passing Greenland, desolate northern Nunavut, the magic Tetons, smoggy Salt Lake City, shiny-lights Vegas and finally LA - all bathed in a lovely orange winter glow. Spectacular flight. Nice crew. Bye, bye Norwegian Longhaul

santi319 wrote:

[photoid][/photoid]

Shuttle wrote:

And a link direct from Norwegian:

https://media.uk.norwegian.com/pressrel ... rk-3064682

A pity for their LH crews and staff.

Shuttle

None of the crews actually worked for Norwegian and they were temp workers with bad benefits compared to their peers...

True perhaps, but in the current climate, regardless of the legal employer, still tough to join the many others in the job queue that have been similarly impacted.

vfw614 wrote:

rutankrd wrote:

vfw614 wrote:

What's the breakdown between 787-8 and -9s? I suppose it will be quite a different story when it comes to finding new homes for -8s and -9s - is anyone still taking on -8s these days? They seem to be sharing the fate that almost all smallest siblings of an airliner family meet as soon as larger aircraft within the family become available.

8s remain in production United American and BA received some quite recently

Sure. But when was the last time someone actually ordered one?

2018: http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx

Edit: not necessarily the last order, but the most notable (22 frames) I can recall off the top of my head.

All these suggestions of which airlines may have a need for a batch of 787s is academic at best, but in the current environment it's more theoretical. Very few, if any, airlines currently have a need to increase their fleets or have the money to do fleet replacements.

As the aircraft are owned by leasing companies, they will end up in long-term storage and remain there until the market has recovered, not least because the leasing companies probably have a very different view of what the aircraft or worth vs what the market is willing to pay. Recovery might take between one and five years, depending on who you ask.

The used 787 market will be fully tested by this decision. As already noted, power by the hour makes an engine swap not a big deal.

This will hurt all widebody resale and make it tougher (a little) to sell new.

Lightsaber

Chasensfo wrote:

Such a shame. Here in the states, people get all riled up about Norwegian, but I am pro-free market and I'm sad to see this. Most of their SFO flights had yet to move over from OAK, or had just moved, when this happened. Many of the routes like ATH were to start in summer of 2020, but never did, obviously. I think the 787-8s only flew there for about 2 months or less before the plug was pulled on SFO, never shot one. I enjoyed working with the "Red Nose" crews, very cool bunch had some fun on the radio. Best of luck to them all.

But is this really the free market working. For me the only places that are benefited from these low cost airlines are the same markets over and over. There are tons off cheap seats dumped into markets just to say they serve BOS, NYC and LAX. These airlines really don't go where the demand is they all pile on in the same markets over saturate it and then disappear or they fly where they get paid to fly to and then when the money runs out they leave. Everyone of the carriers has now failed under that business plan they need to start rethinking their approach and rather than going into cities just for the prestige of flying there need to go into to markets that have higher than average TATL fares and offer customers a service that is less than they are being gouged for and get more for their seat than $99 competing against 4 or 5 carriers in markets where fares are already rock bottom.

I'm sure all of DY's Dreamliners will find new homes, but y'all are right in saying
this will put a dent in new Dreamliner orders for awhile

Does this help IAG with Level? Or is Level toast anyway..

I’m not sure if this thread, but they will restructure and only have 50 planes left once COVID is done by summer 2022.

There are many transatlantic markets where people want to fly at non-trivial fares. Unfortunately many of those routes do not have enough people to fill an A330 or B787. Thus, Norwegian went for the likes of NYC, BOS, IAD, MIA, ORD, SFO and LAX - markets which would have reliable demand. Norwegian did not try flying to Montana for a reason

I should've gotten some photos and videos of their 787s when I was in Oslo in 2015 and 2018, back when Norwegian seemed to be booming but in reality it was a giant bubble that they kept inflating.

Even though they didn't make it to MSP with scheduled flights (though at one point in better times there was talk of them coming here) at least they diverted here once.

I hope they can survive with their simplified business, which in my non-expert opinion they should've stuck with the entire time and then eventually slowly grow into the TATL market.