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SumChristianus
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Wyoming Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:18 pm

Wyoming may be the state with the least population, but it still has a lot of air service and interesting small airports for what it is. And it did about the best of nearly any state this year in air traffic, with volumes down only 27.8% as opposed to far steeper drops everywhere else in the nation/world:
Image
https://www.airlines.org/dataset/impact ... -updates/#

With United/SkyWest taking over a lot of the smaller EAS airports around the state and new service from Allegiant at Jackson Hole coming along with an increased interest in travelers in outdoor recreation areas in general and the West/Wyoming in particular there's a lot to hope for aviation in the state.

Current service notes and coming changes:

Jackson Hole (JAC): Allegiant starts service to LAS, LAX, AZA (Phoenix Mesa) and Reno (I also read rumors on the board here of Punta Gorda (PGD) ... can anyone comment?)

Too much service to keep good track of, in other words looking pretty healthy through it all.

Casper (CPR): Currently only 3x CRJ on United to DEN and 2x on Delta to SLC. 7x CPR-DEN is loaded for March but that's going to drop down most definitely.

Cody (COD), Gillette (GCC), Cheyenne, (CYS) Sheridan (SHR), Rock Springs (RKS), and Riverton (RIW): Each fluctuating between and 1x and 2x daily CRJs to DEN on United. Cody gets DL seasonally back in May

Laramie (LAR not to be confused with Laredo, TX which Google Flights does somehow) 2x CRJs to DEN on United.

Anything else?

United seems to be taking over Wyoming outside of Jackson, with DL not really present anywhere else outside of CPR and COD in the summer and AA having dropped CYS-DFW.

Maybe WN from DEN/MDW/LAS to JAC is in the future based on what they've launched recently? Or JetBlue to BOS/FLL/JFK or even LAX/EWR?

Or maybe Kanye starts an airline next hubbed in Cody? ;)
UA DL LH NW AA WN
 
RJNUT
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Re: Wyoming Airports and Aviation Thread (2021)

Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:10 am

The State of WY did a nice job of consolidating the subsidized air service rather than letting it go piece meal to various service providers. Great Lakes really destroyed the market and they are just now stabilizing and recovering from that debacle
 
sprxUSA
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Re: Wyoming Airports and Aviation Thread (2021)

Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:22 am

If anywhere other than JAC has anything other than SLC or DEN, I would be really amazed. G4 service from CPR, AA from CYS, NW from CPR to MSP all didnt last long at all. The service patterns have been basically the same since 1950. Of any possible route I would like to see tried, is a DL/ OO CYS-SLC route. Bet they would live another hub in addition to or instead of DEN.
Gem State Airlines..."we have a gem of an airline"
 
B595
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Re: Wyoming Airports and Aviation Thread (2021)

Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:49 am

Interesting that AA tried DFW-CYS. Was that an oil route (~like Bismarck, ND)? I know there's military/govt traffic with Warren AFB, but that doesn't seem enough on its own to motivate a DFW flight.
 
SammyXV
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Re: Wyoming Airports and Aviation Thread (2021)

Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:09 am

B595 wrote:
Interesting that AA tried DFW-CYS. Was that an oil route (~like Bismarck, ND)? I know there's military/govt traffic with Warren AFB, but that doesn't seem enough on its own to motivate a DFW flight.


I wonder if it was to capture traffic from the Ft Collins/Loveland and Greeley areas? Granted DEN is on the northern edge of town, the southbound I-25 drive is often a pain and Hwy 85 can be a slow go as well. This may be a stretch though.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: Wyoming Airports and Aviation Thread (2021)

Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:58 am

Alaska is going to give JAC a go this summer too with 5x weekly SEA service. Initially it was announced as winter only.
 
B595
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Re: Wyoming Airports and Aviation Thread (2021)

Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:02 am

SammyXV wrote:
I wonder if it was to capture traffic from the Ft Collins/Loveland and Greeley areas? Granted DEN is on the northern edge of town, the southbound I-25 drive is often a pain and Hwy 85 can be a slow go as well. This may be a stretch though.

I could believe that. I haven't been to the Front Range in ~10 years or so, but friends there tell me that traffic is much,much worse now than even 10 years ago.
 
Ossyoos
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Re: Wyoming Airports and Aviation Thread (2021)

Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:53 am

CPR usually gets one UA E175 on weekdays replacing one of the CRJ, but it seems to be random. Otherwise this is a pretty thorough list. People in town still have hope that G4 will return one day. Everyone says it was quite a popular service when they had it.
 
sprxUSA
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Re: Wyoming Airports and Aviation Thread (2021)

Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:58 am

The AA service was paid for by Cheyenne to SkyWest to offer a different hub other than DEN. OO just ran it as an AA flight to offer better connectivity to passengers. I believe it was one of the few AA marketed CRJ flights left at the time of discontinuation, it seemed. Sometimes they ran a CR7, so it must have been doing good enough at times.
Gem State Airlines..."we have a gem of an airline"
 
joeblow10
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Re: Wyoming Airports and Aviation Thread (2021)

Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:11 am

sprxUSA wrote:
The AA service was paid for by Cheyenne to SkyWest to offer a different hub other than DEN. OO just ran it as an AA flight to offer better connectivity to passengers. I believe it was one of the few AA marketed CRJ flights left at the time of discontinuation, it seemed. Sometimes they ran a CR7, so it must have been doing good enough at times.


It was supposed to go double daily (and even did during peak periods in 2019) so it definitely was doing well. I was on one flight and of course anecdotally, but it went out with 49/50 full.

I said at the start of this I’d be shocked if service isn’t back, it is, just not to DFW.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: Wyoming Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:54 am

I think both B6 and WN will ultimately end up at JAC. That would mean service from eight of the top nine US airlines.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Wyoming Airports and Aviation Thread (2021)

Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:45 am

B595 wrote:
SammyXV wrote:
I wonder if it was to capture traffic from the Ft Collins/Loveland and Greeley areas? Granted DEN is on the northern edge of town, the southbound I-25 drive is often a pain and Hwy 85 can be a slow go as well. This may be a stretch though.

I could believe that. I haven't been to the Front Range in ~10 years or so, but friends there tell me that traffic is much,much worse now than even 10 years ago.


Why wouldn’t they just fly to the Ft. Collins airport if they wanter to serve the Ft. Collins area? There’s an airport there that G4 previously flew into.
 
B595
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Re: Wyoming Airports and Aviation Thread (2021)

Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:19 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
B595 wrote:
SammyXV wrote:
I wonder if it was to capture traffic from the Ft Collins/Loveland and Greeley areas? Granted DEN is on the northern edge of town, the southbound I-25 drive is often a pain and Hwy 85 can be a slow go as well. This may be a stretch though.

I could believe that. I haven't been to the Front Range in ~10 years or so, but friends there tell me that traffic is much,much worse now than even 10 years ago.


Why wouldn’t they just fly to the Ft. Collins airport if they wanter to serve the Ft. Collins area? There’s an airport there that G4 previously flew into.

Possibly because of the answer up thread: They were offered incentives/ subsidies to serve CYS, and maybe Ft. Collins couldn’t counter-offer. And something caused G4 to leave. Were the facility fees too high? Could be any number of reasons.
 
SPREE34
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Re: Wyoming Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:43 pm

AA dropped CYS due to Covid related traffic drops. Hopefully it will return.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
jplatts
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Re: Wyoming Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:57 pm

SumChristianus wrote:
Maybe WN from DEN/MDW/LAS to JAC is in the future based on what they've launched recently?


I agree that WN adding JAC-DEN/MDW/LAS nonstop service service are possibilities. In addition, WN adding JAC-DAL nonstop service on at least a seasonal, weekend-only basis is a possibility with WN recently adding seasonal weekend-only DAL-HDN/MTJ nonstop service.
 
ytib
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Re: Wyoming Airports and Aviation Thread (2021)

Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:10 pm

B595 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
B595 wrote:
I could believe that. I haven't been to the Front Range in ~10 years or so, but friends there tell me that traffic is much,much worse now than even 10 years ago.


Why wouldn’t they just fly to the Ft. Collins airport if they wanter to serve the Ft. Collins area? There’s an airport there that G4 previously flew into.

Possibly because of the answer up thread: They were offered incentives/ subsidies to serve CYS, and maybe Ft. Collins couldn’t counter-offer. And something caused G4 to leave. Were the facility fees too high? Could be any number of reasons.


G4 left due to Fort Collins-Loveland airport not having a control tower. They were slated to come back but the virtual control tower was delayed thus they didn't return service in 2019.

https://www.coloradoan.com/story/money/ ... 058383002/

From people I know in Cheyenne it is easier (and cheaper) for them to drive to DEN for flights then use their own airport. This has to do with the increased cost, but also from all the years being jaded by Great Lake service to DEN and many times they would just put them in a shuttle between the two cities. I know State of Wyoming employees when traveling will get a state car to do the drive south, as well as someone who lives in Cheyenne and she is a regular at Avis there since she rents a car and drives down to Denver for flights. Cheaper to do this then pay for parking and mileage from her job, and less wear on her car.
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SumChristianus
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Re: Wyoming Airports and Aviation Thread (2021)

Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:51 pm

ytib wrote:
B595 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

Why wouldn’t they just fly to the Ft. Collins airport if they wanter to serve the Ft. Collins area? There’s an airport there that G4 previously flew into.

Possibly because of the answer up thread: They were offered incentives/ subsidies to serve CYS, and maybe Ft. Collins couldn’t counter-offer. And something caused G4 to leave. Were the facility fees too high? Could be any number of reasons.


G4 left due to Fort Collins-Loveland airport not having a control tower. They were slated to come back but the virtual control tower was delayed thus they didn't return service in 2019.

https://www.coloradoan.com/story/money/ ... 058383002/

From people I know in Cheyenne it is easier (and cheaper) for them to drive to DEN for flights then use their own airport. This has to do with the increased cost, but also from all the years being jaded by Great Lake service to DEN and many times they would just put them in a shuttle between the two cities. I know State of Wyoming employees when traveling will get a state car to do the drive south, as well as someone who lives in Cheyenne and she is a regular at Avis there since she rents a car and drives down to Denver for flights. Cheaper to do this then pay for parking and mileage from her job, and less wear on her car.


Even from the Lander/Riverton where I now live, driving to DEN (5-6 hours usually, 10 hours one long winter night) was probably the most common way people flew from the area.

I've started using United to Riverton more often recently but I'd suspect that Denver and Salt Lake City are the unofficial Wyoming International Airports for most people. Denver probably the greater of the two as its not that far out of the way for most itineraries to the rest of the country from Wyoming.

SPREE34 wrote:
AA dropped CYS due to Covid related traffic drops. Hopefully it will return.


I believe it was even scheduled to go up to 2x daily (CRJ/CR7) last summer before the virus brought its cancellation.
joeblow10 wrote:
sprxUSA wrote:
The AA service was paid for by Cheyenne to SkyWest to offer a different hub other than DEN. OO just ran it as an AA flight to offer better connectivity to passengers. I believe it was one of the few AA marketed CRJ flights left at the time of discontinuation, it seemed. Sometimes they ran a CR7, so it must have been doing good enough at times.


It was supposed to go double daily (and even did during peak periods in 2019) so it definitely was doing well. I was on one flight and of course anecdotally, but it went out with 49/50 full.

I said at the start of this I’d be shocked if service isn’t back, it is, just not to DFW.

Cheyenne is pretty close to Denver

sprxUSA wrote:
The AA service was paid for by Cheyenne to SkyWest to offer a different hub other than DEN. OO just ran it as an AA flight to offer better connectivity to passengers. I believe it was one of the few AA marketed CRJ flights left at the time of discontinuation, it seemed. Sometimes they ran a CR7, so it must have been doing good enough at times.

Ohh it actually flew at 2x daily in 2019?

SLC and Delta would be a good (not necessarily as good as DEN though) alternative hub for Cheyenne but I doubt it can keep more than 2x CRJ service total to anywhere. Now that UA has it to DEN and launched it last November in the middle of the pandemic no less, it'll probably stay UA until a city/government decides otherwise.

It's my understanding that CYS-DEN is part of Wyoming's semi-alternative EAS plan, right?
http://www.dot.state.wy.us/files/live/s ... 073018.pdf

Ossyoos wrote:
CPR usually gets one UA E175 on weekdays replacing one of the CRJ, but it seems to be random. Otherwise, this is a pretty thorough list. People in town still have hope that G4 will return one day. Everyone says it was quite a popular service when they had it.

Last summer there were originally to be several E-175's loaded in the schedule per day. As the only other airport besides Jackson in Wyoming that consistently supports multiple carriers, Casper's probably the best positioned to keep service even in a future world with fewer 50-seaters, but that makes me wonder about the rest of the state's airports.

Rock Springs could maybe support a CRJ700/E175 someday and maybe Cody in the summer if Yellowstone gets more popular, but RIW/SHR/GCC are seemingly still at risk of there not being an appropriate aircraft type to serve them say 10 years from now.

RJNUT wrote:
The State of WY did a nice job of consolidating the subsidized air service rather than letting it go piecemeal to various service providers. Great Lakes really destroyed the market and they are just now stabilizing and recovering from that debacle


Yep, so glad for that change... In fact, Riverton was doing so well in early 2020 after UA took over, that it almost immediately went to 2x daily flights of its own rather than sharing with Sheridan on one of them. Even in the pandemic, it went back up to 2x standalone over Christmas, and while they were only about 60% full last month when I took two flights to Denver and back, it was pretty good all things considered.

May 2020 was fun though with only twelve people total on a DEN-RKS-RIW flight and only six on the RKS-RIW segment when they temporarily consolidated cities for the worst of the traffic slump. :lol:

sprxUSA wrote:
If anywhere other than JAC has anything other than SLC or DEN, I would be really amazed. G4 service from CPR, AA from CYS, NW from CPR to MSP all didnt last long at all. The service patterns have been basically the same since 1950. Of any possible route I would like to see tried, is a DL/ OO CYS-SLC route. Bet they would live another hub in addition to or instead of DEN.

I believe I saw a Small Community Air Service Development (SCASD) grant application from Casper a few years back proposing a CPR-ATL service, but that would be a little unthinkable today given DL's fleet strategy. Maybe a CPR-ORD someday if UA turns ORD into a fortress hub.

My pipe dream remains Lander's Hunt Field getting United Express to Denver instead of Riverton since the Lander area actually is the source/destination of most of the RIW demand.
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sprxUSA
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Re: Wyoming Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:44 am

I remember when Mesa, just post Centennial acquisition, operated a DEN-RIW-LND-DEN round robin for a very short time-frame. Miss days when small airports were serviced by small carriers in more lenient days.
Gem State Airlines..."we have a gem of an airline"
 
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SumChristianus
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Re: Wyoming Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:16 pm

sprxUSA wrote:
I remember when Mesa, just post Centennial acquisition, operated a DEN-RIW-LND-DEN round robin for a very short time-frame. Miss days when small airports were serviced by small carriers in more lenient days.


Even in June 1999 looking at Departed Flights United Express had a ton of turboprop flights to rural Wyoming from Denver: http://www.departedflights.com/DEN99p6.html Riverton and Sheridan each had 5 flights a day from Denver. 19 seat Beech1900s yes, but still a ton of resources devoted to small towns out here.

Laramie was 4x a day and Jackson Hole only 2x (although on larger aircraft Dornier 328/ BAE146. Gillette was 6x daily B1900, Cody 2x daily D328, Casper 5x D328, and Cheyenne (now relaucched at daily, was 8x a day in June 1999.

Delta had some good frequency from Salt Lake City as well: Casper 4x: (CRJ + 3x Emb120), Cody 3x Emb120, Jackson Hole 9x EM2.

Although aircraft serving these places are larger, frequency has mostly crashed faster than the growth in seats/flight.

Even funnier now is the fact that Riverton actually had both CO Express (GP Express) and UA Express (Mesa) to DEN from at least 1991 to 1995

It might be obvious because DEN is in the way for more of the US, but how did Denver become the defacto gateway for most of small town Wyoming as opposed to Salt Lake City. Is it just that DL never wanted the EAS contracts there? Delta has some monopoly cities in Utah and EAS there, but the scope of the SLC hub is interestingly more different than might be thought from its similar geography to Denver.
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Ossyoos
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Re: Wyoming Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:22 am

sprxUSA wrote:
I remember when Mesa, just post Centennial acquisition, operated a DEN-RIW-LND-DEN round robin for a very short time-frame. Miss days when small airports were serviced by small carriers in more lenient days.

The Riverton to Lander leg seems like it would be one of the shortest commercial routes in existence when it was in use. I thought the PIH-IDA section of a longer run in Idaho was a short one prior to this.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Wyoming Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:48 am

SumChristianus wrote:
sprxUSA wrote:
I remember when Mesa, just post Centennial acquisition, operated a DEN-RIW-LND-DEN round robin for a very short time-frame. Miss days when small airports were serviced by small carriers in more lenient days.


Even in June 1999 looking at Departed Flights United Express had a ton of turboprop flights to rural Wyoming from Denver: http://www.departedflights.com/DEN99p6.html Riverton and Sheridan each had 5 flights a day from Denver. 19 seat Beech1900s yes, but still a ton of resources devoted to small towns out here.

Laramie was 4x a day and Jackson Hole only 2x (although on larger aircraft Dornier 328/ BAE146. Gillette was 6x daily B1900, Cody 2x daily D328, Casper 5x D328, and Cheyenne (now relaucched at daily, was 8x a day in June 1999.

Delta had some good frequency from Salt Lake City as well: Casper 4x: (CRJ + 3x Emb120), Cody 3x Emb120, Jackson Hole 9x EM2.

Although aircraft serving these places are larger, frequency has mostly crashed faster than the growth in seats/flight.

Even funnier now is the fact that Riverton actually had both CO Express (GP Express) and UA Express (Mesa) to DEN from at least 1991 to 1995

It might be obvious because DEN is in the way for more of the US, but how did Denver become the defacto gateway for most of small town Wyoming as opposed to Salt Lake City. Is it just that DL never wanted the EAS contracts there? Delta has some monopoly cities in Utah and EAS there, but the scope of the SLC hub is interestingly more different than might be thought from its similar geography to Denver.


As I recall, GP Express didn’t take over the CO Express flying out of DEN until the second half of 1994. Prior to that, CO Express had been the in-house regional - the remains of what had been Rocky Mountain Airways (CO Express DEN) which was merged with Britt Airways and part of Bar Harbor. This grouping went on from Continental Express to become ExpressJet (before the merger with ASA).
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DLASFlyer
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Re: Wyoming Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:18 am

Jackson Hole Airport is on fire. First Alaska, then Allegiant and now Sun Country. The airport director says airlines keep calling without any courting or incentives. Where are all these planes going to park and where are all the pax going to wait? I wonder if JAC could create an outdoor secure hold room. Weather is generally very nice in the summer.

https://www.startribune.com/sun-country ... 600014847/

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/bus ... f5815.html
 
sprxUSA
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Re: Wyoming Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:06 am

Well it appears they have 11 parking spots available and I doubt there will be that many planes on the ground at once. With Allegiant and Sun Country less than daily, I am assuming, it "shouldn't" be an issue. Perhaps the airport management will encourage staggered scheduling to help alleviate any issues before they happen. Or the old hold for a spot method works,too . And yes, that terminal will be very tight this summer. Certainly a lot different than my first trip there in June 1976.....
Gem State Airlines..."we have a gem of an airline"
 
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SumChristianus
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Re: Wyoming Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:51 pm

From Midwestindy: Wyoming is down "only" 10% from March 2019 in March 2021 in terms of scheduled passenger flights versus 34% for the nation as a whole.

Only South Dakota, Montana, and Idaho did better.

Image
https://www.airlines.org/dataset/impact ... -updates/#
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Chuska
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Re: Wyoming Airports and Aviation Thread (2021)

Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:24 am

SumChristianus wrote:

My pipe dream remains Lander's Hunt Field getting United Express to Denver instead of Riverton since the Lander area actually is the source/destination of most of the RIW demand.


Riverton sure has beautiful massive terminal. Hate to see that go without service. Would make a great art museum though.
 
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SumChristianus
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Re: Wyoming Airports and Aviation Thread (2021)

Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:43 am

Chuska wrote:
SumChristianus wrote:

My pipe dream remains Lander's Hunt Field getting United Express to Denver instead of Riverton since the Lander area actually is the source/destination of most of the RIW demand.


Riverton sure has beautiful massive terminal. Hate to see that go without service. Would make a great art museum though.


Only say that since I live a ten minute walk from Lander's Hunt Field (LND)...or two minutes by car (actually I'm right under the typical Lander approach path) but Riverton is about a 45 min drive away.

There isn't a terminal for Lander and yes Riverton is nice too, I've just also seen I've seen in various EAS filing public comments some sort of statistic that most of the RIW demand comes from the Lander area more so than Riverton... Not enough to probably ever warrant a new terminal or service switching

Since Riverton Regional is a little bit out of town too for Riverton I kind of think the terminal can't be anything but what it is successfully.
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Chuska
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Re: Wyoming Airports and Aviation Thread (2021)

Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:44 am

RJNUT wrote:
The State of WY did a nice job of consolidating the subsidized air service rather than letting it go piece meal to various service providers. Great Lakes really destroyed the market and they are just now stabilizing and recovering from that debacle


Great Lakes sure did destroy many cities that were on the EAS program. At least LAR and COD survived. I can't understand that FAA Reauthorization Act of 2012. It reads that any city served for no charge between 9/30/2010 and 9/30/2011 (like CYS, RIW, and SHR) got kicked out of the EAS program permanently. But it was only limited to that one year window. No provisions if the airline (Great Lakes) craters and the city if left unserved. So since then, cities that get served for free at any point and then the airline pulls out or craters, that city can get back on the EAS system. I believe that happened at DIK and PIR, both former Great Lakes destinations that were once served for free after that 2010-2011 window, they got back on EAS.

Here in NM, Farmington got axed by Great Lakes and hasn't had any service for three years now. They did get a SCASDP grant and SkyWest agreed to start a Denver flight back in October but the city of FMN doesn't want to burn thru the money during these non-ideal times so they're on hold for who knows how long. I'm glad for you all in WY that you take on the problem and subsidize your own cities.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Wyoming Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:12 pm

I'm honestly a little surprised to see this. I would've thought* YV would've at least kept 1-2 flights into FMN.

*Not based on any kind of economic reasoning or empirical evidence. Just my .02 as an ex-YV employee
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