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mercure1
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Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:54 pm

Turkmenistan Airlines has placed an order for two A330-200 Passenger-to-Freighter (P2F) converted aircraft.
The order marks the first time an Airbus aircraft is sold in Turkmenistan.
Deliveries of the aircraft are planned in 2022.

Image

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/turk ... rbus-a330/
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lightsaber
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:01 pm

I'd love to know more details than the link has. For example, how the purchase is handled. Is the leasing company converting a returned A332 and either selling or Leasing the plane or did Turkmenistan buy the planes and then pay for conversions?

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oldJoe
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:56 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I'd love to know more details than the link has. For example, how the purchase is handled. Is the leasing company converting a returned A332 and either selling or Leasing the plane or did Turkmenistan buy the planes and then pay for conversions?

Lightsaber


According to the link below they purchased the aircraft from Airbus direct.

source in German : https://www.airliners.de/turkmenistan-airlines-airbus-kunde/59040

Good to know that two A332`s are off of the second-hand market.
 
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:12 pm

I guess we figured out what the Il-76 replacement for them likely will be
 
amdiesen
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:19 am

Excellent!! geographically well suited and the timing is economically opportunistic.

Datum: previous threads were quoting/estimating $18m, $17.5m; A333, A332 conversion costs.
hypothesis: rr powered?
admission: having been pessimistic about the A332 conversions, its refreshing to hear conflicting data that is economically logical.
puzzling over:
1) proper amortization of long-lived assets where costs and revenue are complex, in a technologically evolving environment.
2) the economics of gate real estate
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:33 am

Odd choice considering the fleet they have.
 
Chaostheory
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:28 am

ikolkyo wrote:
Odd choice considering the fleet they have.


The A330 has superb field and climb performance, especially the -200 which makes it well suited for hot/high ops.

EK, Yemenia, US and Nepal bought it for that very reason. Probably others too.
 
migair54
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:24 am

Chaostheory wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Odd choice considering the fleet they have.


The A330 has superb field and climb performance, especially the -200 which makes it well suited for hot/high ops.

EK, Yemenia, US and Nepal bought it for that very reason. Probably others too.


Why do they need that?? I don't think they fly to any hot and high airport.
ASB is 700 feet.

They have 8 Il76 but who knows how many of them are in real flying condition. 2 A330 are not a huge fleet but they are much more versatile and reliable than the IL's.
Maybe they will use them to HKG, PVG, DXB, FRA, AMS....


The B77F would have make more sense, but are not easy to get in the second hand market and they are quite expensive to buy brand new, I also don't think they need a 100T cargo capacity freighter.
 
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:34 am

The weather in Ashgabat in July is hot
38 deg C or 100 deg F is fairly typical. Add a bit more if you want to allow for a temporary heatwave
 
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:09 am

amdiesen wrote:
Excellent!! geographically well suited and the timing is economically opportunistic.

Datum: previous threads were quoting/estimating $18m, $17.5m; A333, A332 conversion costs.
hypothesis: rr powered?
admission: having been pessimistic about the A332 conversions, its refreshing to hear conflicting data that is economically logical.


According to the image, yes, RR powered.
 
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TKflyer
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:02 am

Is there a possibility that Turkmenistan get some additional received standard Airbus A330–243F (non P2F)
 
migair54
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:50 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
The weather in Ashgabat in July is hot
38 deg C or 100 deg F is fairly typical. Add a bit more if you want to allow for a temporary heatwave


Few days a year is hot, they can adjust the flights to depart at cooler times and that's not a big issue, also with a typical journey under 6-7 hours to Europe or Far East, they wont be close to the MTOW most of the time. I think it's a perfect machine for them, good size and range, the only problem is creating a very small subfleet.
 
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Polot
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:05 pm

Chaostheory wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Odd choice considering the fleet they have.


The A330 has superb field and climb performance, especially the -200 which makes it well suited for hot/high ops.

EK, Yemenia, US and Nepal bought it for that very reason. Probably others too.

US did not buy the A330 for its field and climb performance. I’m not sure they ever flew the plane anywhere where that is a major concern. They bought the -200 for its capacity, needing a long range wide body smaller than their A333s for expansion and to replace the aging 762s. They bought the -300 because in the late 90s they went all in on Airbus after their rift with Boeing (from the 737 rudder issues) and the A333 was Airbus’s best TATL wide body having no need for range of A340.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:39 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
The weather in Ashgabat in July is hot
38 deg C or 100 deg F is fairly typical. Add a bit more if you want to allow for a temporary heatwave


It's July's avg daily high, in fact, although they don't necessarily need to operate in the hottest part of the day. August isn't much cooler.

http://www.weatherbase.com/weather/weat ... its=metric
 
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:25 pm

migair54 wrote:
Chaostheory wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Odd choice considering the fleet they have.


The A330 has superb field and climb performance, especially the -200 which makes it well suited for hot/high ops.

EK, Yemenia, US and Nepal bought it for that very reason. Probably others too.


Why do they need that?? I don't think they fly to any hot and high airport.
ASB is 700 feet.

They have 8 Il76 but who knows how many of them are in real flying condition. 2 A330 are not a huge fleet but they are much more versatile and reliable than the IL's.
Maybe they will use them to HKG, PVG, DXB, FRA, AMS....


The B77F would have make more sense, but are not easy to get in the second hand market and they are quite expensive to buy brand new, I also don't think they need a 100T cargo capacity freighter.

You're contradicting yourself in a single sentence...
Why would the 777F makes more sense if they don't need 100T capacity? That right there doesn't make sense.
 
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alberchico
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:13 pm

I read that the new build A330F's have an elaborate nose wheel extension to make the cabin floor level to ease loading of cargo. How does this converted version address that problem ?
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:37 pm

alberchico wrote:
I read that the new build A330F's have an elaborate nose wheel extension to make the cabin floor level to ease loading of cargo. How does this converted version address that problem ?

A powered cargo loading system.

Ref: https://www.elbeflugzeugwerke.com/en/fr ... n/a330-p2f

Ref: https://aviation.stackexchange.com/ques ... airbus-p2f
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Aseem747
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:28 pm

I think my comment on how Airbus bribed Nepal Airlines in reply to Chaostheory saying Nepal bought it for it's hot and high performance was removed for some reason.
 
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Polot
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:40 pm

Aseem747 wrote:
I think my comment on how Airbus bribed Nepal Airlines in reply to Chaostheory saying Nepal bought it for it's hot and high performance was removed for some reason.

It’s a rather charged statement that could quickly lead to an AvB war, as you never actually posted proof that Airbus bribed Nepal Airlines (although I’m personally aware Airbus admitted to it in their recent corruption/bribery scandal).
 
smartplane
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:55 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Odd choice considering the fleet they have.

Perhaps not when the parties involved, lease structure and support are revealed. This is a total package, also on offer to other prospective customers.
 
Antarius
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:57 pm

Polot wrote:
Aseem747 wrote:
I think my comment on how Airbus bribed Nepal Airlines in reply to Chaostheory saying Nepal bought it for it's hot and high performance was removed for some reason.

It’s a rather charged statement that could quickly lead to an AvB war, as you never actually posted proof that Airbus bribed Nepal Airlines (although I’m personally aware Airbus admitted to it in their recent corruption/bribery scandal).


I think the lack of link could be construed as flame as well. However, it did happen: https://kathmandupost.com/2/2020/02/04/ ... -officials

When I was in KTM last year, I found it extremely odd that they had these 2 a332s sitting around. The runway closes at midnight but briefly reopens at 2:30 AM for a Tokyo flight; my KTM-HKG flight was delayed which resulted in us having to wait till 2:30 AM at which point the flight I was on departed right after the Nepal Airlines one.

Regardless, bringing it back to the core topic - lumping Nepal Airlines, US Airways and Turkmenistan Airlines in the same bucket is a real stretch. With the exception of Nepal Airlines, the a332 was the right fit in terms of size, range and capability.
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Antarius
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:01 pm

smartplane wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Odd choice considering the fleet they have.

Perhaps not when the parties involved, lease structure and support are revealed. This is a total package, also on offer to other prospective customers.


Also, one needs to consider cost and delivery time. The 777F is way too big, the 767F has a lengthy conversion backlog. A new 777F, 767F and a330F are expensive. Which leaves the a332P2F as only option that fits cost effectiveness, speed of acquisition and range.

And irrelevant to any purchase decisions, in my humble opinion, its a damn good looking aircraft.
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Aseem747
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:31 pm

Antarius wrote:
smartplane wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Odd choice considering the fleet they have.

Perhaps not when the parties involved, lease structure and support are revealed. This is a total package, also on offer to other prospective customers.


Also, one needs to consider cost and delivery time. The 777F is way too big, the 767F has a lengthy conversion backlog. A new 777F, 767F and a330F are expensive. Which leaves the a332P2F as only option that fits cost effectiveness, speed of acquisition and range.

And irrelevant to any purchase decisions, in my humble opinion, its a damn good looking aircraft.

The lack of buldge makes it look boring
 
oldJoe
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:42 pm

Aseem747 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Perhaps not when the parties involved, lease structure and support are revealed. This is a total package, also on offer to other prospective customers.


Also, one needs to consider cost and delivery time. The 777F is way too big, the 767F has a lengthy conversion backlog. A new 777F, 767F and a330F are expensive. Which leaves the a332P2F as only option that fits cost effectiveness, speed of acquisition and range.

And irrelevant to any purchase decisions, in my humble opinion, its a damn good looking aircraft.

The lack of buldge makes it look boring


The buldge makes it not looking more sexy and I`m going with Antarius : A good looking plane !
 
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:15 pm

Antarius wrote:
smartplane wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Odd choice considering the fleet they have.

Perhaps not when the parties involved, lease structure and support are revealed. This is a total package, also on offer to other prospective customers.


Also, one needs to consider cost and delivery time. The 777F is way too big, the 767F has a lengthy conversion backlog. A new 777F, 767F and a330F are expensive. Which leaves the a332P2F as only option that fits cost effectiveness, speed of acquisition and range.

And irrelevant to any purchase decisions, in my humble opinion, its a damn good looking aircraft.


Yep, you won't be able to get a 767BDSF in 2022 timeframe with Amazon, DHL and ATSG having the slots locked up. The A330-200 price has dropped significantly and I won't be surprised to see Turkmenistan actually getting a very young (sub 10 years old) A330-200 feedstock with good conditions in favorable terms.
 
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:41 am

TKflyer wrote:
Is there a possibility that Turkmenistan get some additional received standard Airbus A330–243F (non P2F)

datum: qatar identifies the variant as route proving and has telegraphed an intent to divest as their 77F orders get delivered. One would expect them to market their frames in 2021.
used, sure/yes

ikolkyo wrote:
Odd choice considering the fleet they have.

good point. ...given their geographic proximity and relationship with Iran, one theme to consider is a circumspect objective of supplemental support for Iran Air's younger A332s.


...
could this be Etihad frames? KKR has 16 (RR/.243s) sitting in the desert (ages 7-16yrs) and has expressed P2F intentions
puzzling over:
1) proper amortization of long-lived assets where costs and revenue are complex, in a technologically evolving environment.
2) the economics of gate real estate
 
vlaakko
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:04 am

I'm wondering why they don't simply upgrade their IL-76 fleet with those new modern engines, then they will have a much more capable cargoplane.

Deal for those A330's must have been pretty good at this time.
 
migair54
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:06 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
migair54 wrote:
Chaostheory wrote:

The A330 has superb field and climb performance, especially the -200 which makes it well suited for hot/high ops.

EK, Yemenia, US and Nepal bought it for that very reason. Probably others too.


Why do they need that?? I don't think they fly to any hot and high airport.
ASB is 700 feet.

They have 8 Il76 but who knows how many of them are in real flying condition. 2 A330 are not a huge fleet but they are much more versatile and reliable than the IL's.
Maybe they will use them to HKG, PVG, DXB, FRA, AMS....


The B77F would have make more sense, but are not easy to get in the second hand market and they are quite expensive to buy brand new, I also don't think they need a 100T cargo capacity freighter.

You're contradicting yourself in a single sentence...
Why would the 777F makes more sense if they don't need 100T capacity? That right there doesn't make sense.


it would make more sense fleetwise for the pilots, spares, training... however I don't think they need such a big cargo plane.

vlaakko wrote:
I'm wondering why they don't simply upgrade their IL-76 fleet with those new modern engines, then they will have a much more capable cargoplane

who knows what is the real condition of that planes, how much life is left on them, how much the modernization of each cost in USD and time...
I think the Il76 line is still open and new frames are more capable, but I don't know if that is only for military contract or they can be use in commercial operations
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:44 pm

What are the frames being converted? Thus far, the only A332s that I am aware that were converted were three that MS sent out for conversion, sourced from its own fleet.
 
Chaostheory
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:40 pm

migair54 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
migair54 wrote:

Why do they need that?? I don't think they fly to any hot and high airport.
ASB is 700 feet.

They have 8 Il76 but who knows how many of them are in real flying condition. 2 A330 are not a huge fleet but they are much more versatile and reliable than the IL's.
Maybe they will use them to HKG, PVG, DXB, FRA, AMS....


The B77F would have make more sense, but are not easy to get in the second hand market and they are quite expensive to buy brand new, I also don't think they need a 100T cargo capacity freighter.

You're contradicting yourself in a single sentence...
Why would the 777F makes more sense if they don't need 100T capacity? That right there doesn't make sense.


it would make more sense fleetwise for the pilots, spares, training... however I don't think they need such a big cargo plane.

vlaakko wrote:
I'm wondering why they don't simply upgrade their IL-76 fleet with those new modern engines, then they will have a much more capable cargoplane

who knows what is the real condition of that planes, how much life is left on them, how much the modernization of each cost in USD and time...
I think the Il76 line is still open and new frames are more capable, but I don't know if that is only for military contract or they can be use in commercial operations


Once you factor in the traditionally poor support offered by Ilyushin and co not to mention the inherently higher operational costs, the A330 is almost a no-brainer.

The Indian Air Force/MOD bean counters figured that out too when they reviewed the respective platforms before the politicians got involved.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:19 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
What are the frames being converted? Thus far, the only A332s that I am aware that were converted were three that MS sent out for conversion, sourced from its own fleet.


AFAIK all AA frames are available, young, relatively well cared for, and RR powered.

Who else has RR-powered examples stored?
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oldJoe
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:44 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
What are the frames being converted? Thus far, the only A332s that I am aware that were converted were three that MS sent out for conversion, sourced from its own fleet.


Good question. Like "amdiesen" said KKR or better Altavair Air Finance have A330-200 availible and is also interested in P2F conversion

source : https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20200203005077/en/Altavair-AirFinance-and-KKR-Announce-1-Billion-Aircraft-Transaction-with-Etihad-Airways

source portfolio from Altavair : https://www.altavair.com/portfolio/
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:07 pm

Why not second hand 767s? I think they'd have commonality with the sub-fleet of 757s they have, not to mention the 767 is in a similar size range as the A332p2f.
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Antarius
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:30 am

Boeing757100 wrote:
Why not second hand 767s? I think they'd have commonality with the sub-fleet of 757s they have, not to mention the 767 is in a similar size range as the A332p2f.


Time is a big consideration. You aren't likely to get one in the next several years as the 767 conversion backlog is long.
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Ty134A
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:25 am

Chaostheory wrote:
migair54 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
You're contradicting yourself in a single sentence...
Why would the 777F makes more sense if they don't need 100T capacity? That right there doesn't make sense.


it would make more sense fleetwise for the pilots, spares, training... however I don't think they need such a big cargo plane.

vlaakko wrote:
I'm wondering why they don't simply upgrade their IL-76 fleet with those new modern engines, then they will have a much more capable cargoplane

who knows what is the real condition of that planes, how much life is left on them, how much the modernization of each cost in USD and time...
I think the Il76 line is still open and new frames are more capable, but I don't know if that is only for military contract or they can be use in commercial operations


Once you factor in the traditionally poor support offered by Ilyushin and co not to mention the inherently higher operational costs, the A330 is almost a no-brainer.

The Indian Air Force/MOD bean counters figured that out too when they reviewed the respective platforms before the politicians got involved.


I habe worked on all sorts of acft, and you can‘t compare IL7, A4F or ANF ops with those of an A330F. The Russian cargo acft are specialized on out of the ordinary ops. Then don‘t need ULDs, have cranes inside and steel floors. They are used for different cargo alltogether. I also assume, since Türkmenistan is more or less still Soviet Union in terms of politics and structure, that the Türkmenistan Airlines IL7s are more or less part of the military.

You can order modern IL7s updated with better avionics and PS90 engines, lowering the fuel burn by 30%.

There is no way in comparing a 330F to an IL7. You can‘t go on a dirt ralley with a Ferrari!
TU3/5,T20,IL8/6/W/9,I14,YK4/2,AN2/4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80/2/7,
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Chaostheory
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Re: Turkmenistan Airlines orders two A330-200P2Fs

Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:40 am

Ty134A wrote:

You can order modern IL7s updated with better avionics and PS90 engines, lowering the fuel burn by 30%.

There is no way in comparing a 330F to an IL7. You can‘t go on a dirt ralley with a Ferrari!


Doesn't make a difference when you're moving pallets around. Spares support for the 330/Trent 700 is next day and can be found locally in all corners of the world. What happens when your IL76/PS90 goes tech at FRA?

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