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Runway28L
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Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:14 pm

Frontier Airlines and P&W have agreed to a deal for 268 GTF engines, including spares, for its next batch of Airbus deliveries starting in 2022. This will include 49 A320neos, 67 A321neos and 18 A321XLRs the airline has on order.

https://news.flyfrontier.com/frontier-a ... f-engines/

Kind of surprised they will break commonality with the CFM Leap. Pratt must have gave them an awesome deal - the presser mentions an engine maintenance agreement and on-site technical support from Pratt.

Also, that concept livery shown on that A321neo at the top looks so cool. Wish it would come to fruition!
 
lostsound
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Re: Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:20 pm

Sorry if it veers from topic but any news on where F9 plans on sending XLRs? I can’t imagine they’re in a position for TATL flights. Perhaps they’re for South America or Denver (& others) to Hawaii?
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:30 pm

This switch probably has more to do with the Indigo Partners aspect of it all, the first batch of aircraft were aircraft ordered before Frontier became associated with them while the this round of aircraft was purchased by the group.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:54 pm

Other Indigo airlines (Wizz, Volaris, JetSMART) use the PW GTF.

Considering the fleet was commonly ordered, makes sense the engines match also.
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TranscendZac
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Re: Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:41 pm

lostsound wrote:
Sorry if it veers from topic but any news on where F9 plans on sending XLRs? I can’t imagine they’re in a position for TATL flights. Perhaps they’re for South America or Denver (& others) to Hawaii?

I would think a 321LR would be more than enough to make Denver to Hawaii. XLR is a lot of range so I too am wondering if they are planning to go to South America.
Zac
 
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Frontier14
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Re: Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:34 pm

lostsound wrote:
Sorry if it veers from topic but any news on where F9 plans on sending XLRs? I can’t imagine they’re in a position for TATL flights. Perhaps they’re for South America or Denver (& others) to Hawaii?


In a recent employee video CEO Biffe made reference that Frontier will be expanding its' Miami presence once Covid passes. Tied with that comment he made reference to the use of the XLRs reaching into Central America and the Caribbean. Earlier comments had reference to east coast to west coast flights with the XLRs too. Time will tell if these statements come to fruition.

Frontier 14
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:43 pm

Runway28L wrote:
Kind of surprised they will break commonality with the CFM Leap.


1) Power-By-The-Hour contracts help to ameliorate that.

2) When you are ordering 268 engines, you have an economy of scale right there in that number. There isn't much additional benefit to ordering LEAPS.

3) It makes sense to have some diversity. Suppose that PW or CFM suddenly has an issue and a substantial portion of the global fleet has to be grounded (we've seen this happen a few times in the last decade, even on supposedly mature engine platforms). At least that wouldn't completely shut down F9.
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luv2cattlecall
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Re: Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:46 pm

Frontier14 wrote:
lostsound wrote:
Sorry if it veers from topic but any news on where F9 plans on sending XLRs? I can’t imagine they’re in a position for TATL flights. Perhaps they’re for South America or Denver (& others) to Hawaii?


In a recent employee video CEO Biffe made reference that Frontier will be expanding its' Miami presence once Covid passes. Tied with that comment he made reference to the use of the XLRs reaching into Central America and the Caribbean. Earlier comments had reference to east coast to west coast flights with the XLRs too. Time will tell if these statements come to fruition.

Frontier 14


I might be misreading, but why would the XLR be ordered for coast to coast flights?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:14 pm

TranscendZac wrote:
lostsound wrote:
Sorry if it veers from topic but any news on where F9 plans on sending XLRs? I can’t imagine they’re in a position for TATL flights. Perhaps they’re for South America or Denver (& others) to Hawaii?

I would think a 321LR would be more than enough to make Denver to Hawaii.

What is market/value proposition of the A321LR going forward though, seeing as standard A321Ns will now have the same WV option, and the -XLR is on the horizon?

I wouldn't be surprised if Airbus quietly drops most of the -LR branding, and just promotes the A321NEO (with or without optional supplementary tankage) + A321XLR.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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reidar76
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Re: Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:39 pm

luv2cattlecall wrote:
Frontier14 wrote:
lostsound wrote:
Sorry if it veers from topic but any news on where F9 plans on sending XLRs? I can’t imagine they’re in a position for TATL flights. Perhaps they’re for South America or Denver (& others) to Hawaii?


In a recent employee video CEO Biffe made reference that Frontier will be expanding its' Miami presence once Covid passes. Tied with that comment he made reference to the use of the XLRs reaching into Central America and the Caribbean. Earlier comments had reference to east coast to west coast flights with the XLRs too. Time will tell if these statements come to fruition.

Frontier 14


I might be misreading, but why would the XLR be ordered for coast to coast flights?


If Frontier is anything like its European sister airline, Wizzair, they will take advantage of the increased MTOW of the XLR, not to fly with max fuel, but to increase payload over a longer range than the standard A321 offers. For example, an XLR might be needed to fly 238 passengers from JFK to LAX during the winter months.

Wizzair configures their A321neo with 238 seats, and plan on flying transatlantic once they receive their XLRs. Who knows, maybe Frontier and Wizzair will connect their networks, allowing connections within the airline group. (?) The post-covid19 era might look quite different if business traffic doesn't pick up to previous levels, and only low cost tickets are in high demand.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:20 pm

This is great news for Pratt.
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:27 pm

I might be misreading, but why would the XLR be ordered for coast to coast flights?


Speculation last year was also that Frontier might try delving into the Mainland - Hawaii and Latin American markets from airports further inland. I have no idea if that's true, just that it was discussed. Take it for what its worth.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:37 pm

reidar76 wrote:
If Frontier is anything like its European sister airline, Wizzair, they will take advantage of the increased MTOW of the XLR, not to fly with max fuel, but to increase payload over a longer range than the standard A321 offers. For example, an XLR might be needed to fly 238 passengers from JFK to LAX during the winter months.


I wasn't thinking the 321LR would be inadequate for U.S. transcons, even at F9's 230-count Y+/Y seating.

DEN-Hawaii is interesting (and strikes me as more likely than something like DEN-LIM), although UA would surely put up a fight. WN's MAX8s could be challenged for range on DEN-Hawaii routes,.
 
pranav7478
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Re: Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:03 am

i was pretty surprised. they must have gotten an insanely good deal, especially with reliability concerns of the gtf. like indigo for example switched from their gtf to leap after lots of issues with their gtfs. frontier did the opposite. might be the indigo partners group order, but even then i thought they would put leap for frontier and gtf for everyone else.
Planes I have flown on: CRJ-900, E175, E190, A319, A320, A321, A330-200, 717, 737-700, 737-800, 747-400, 747-8I, 757-200, 767-300, 777-200, 777-300(ER), 787-8, 787-9
Airlines I have flown on: AI, AS, BA, DL, 6E, 9W, B6, KE, SQ, WN, UA, US, VA
 
SteelChair
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Re: Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:45 am

I wonder if Pratt will contract out the overhauls?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:19 am

pranav7478 wrote:
i was pretty surprised. they must have gotten an insanely good deal, especially with reliability concerns of the gtf. like indigo for example switched from their gtf to leap after lots of issues with their gtfs. frontier did the opposite. might be the indigo partners group order, but even then i thought they would put leap for frontier and gtf for everyone else.

Everyone does realize the GTF reliability has improved dramatically?
https://www.msn.com/en-in/autos/news/pa ... r-BB1c6hlH

"With more than 180 GTF-powered aircraft in India and an extraordinary engine dispatch reliability rate of 99.98 per cent, our customers are recognising the superior fuel efficiency that GTF engines deliver. "Since cost savings are especially important in the current environment, we've seen airlines prioritise operating their GTF-powered aircraft before any others," she added.

"Thanks to upgrades completed in close coordination with our customers in 2020, GTF engines for the A320neo family are now delivering industry-leading reliability, said Carroll Lane, president of Commercial Engines at Pratt & Whitney. "When you combine this with our best-in-class fuel efficiency and low carbon emissions, it's easy to see why GTF-powered fleets have seen high utilization as the industry begins to recover,"

This took time, but there was investment. Ironically, the downturn let Pratt catch up. Indigo was rational switching as they had given Pratt a chance to fix the seals and the first attempt to fix the seals didn't go well:
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... m-a320neos

It appears the proposed fixes are working. Frontier would have access to data.

The deal wouldn't just be price. It would be promised maintenance costs, fuel burn, and reliability (with penalties).

We discussed in circles in this thread, basically, to sell , Pratt needed reliability. The have some advantage in fuel burn.

viewtopic.php?t=1372379

Lightsaber

Last link in prior thread, points out all the improvements in the Pratt engines.
http://www.mro-network.com/maintenance- ... pares-pool
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
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Frontier14
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Re: Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:57 am

luv2cattlecall wrote:
Frontier14 wrote:
lostsound wrote:
Sorry if it veers from topic but any news on where F9 plans on sending XLRs? I can’t imagine they’re in a position for TATL flights. Perhaps they’re for South America or Denver (& others) to Hawaii?


In a recent employee video CEO Biffe made reference that Frontier will be expanding its' Miami presence once Covid passes. Tied with that comment he made reference to the use of the XLRs reaching into Central America and the Caribbean. Earlier comments had reference to east coast to west coast flights with the XLRs too. Time will tell if these statements come to fruition.

Frontier 14


I might be misreading, but why would the XLR be ordered for coast to coast flights?


As was mention above, F9's 321ceo's cannot do PHL, LGA, BOS to the west coast in the winter with the westerly headwinds without taking a load restriction or making a fuel stop. The new XLRs will have that nonstop capability with a full load even with the winter headwinds.

Frontier 14
 
lostsound
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Re: Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:15 am

Frontier14 wrote:
luv2cattlecall wrote:
Frontier14 wrote:

In a recent employee video CEO Biffe made reference that Frontier will be expanding its' Miami presence once Covid passes. Tied with that comment he made reference to the use of the XLRs reaching into Central America and the Caribbean. Earlier comments had reference to east coast to west coast flights with the XLRs too. Time will tell if these statements come to fruition.

Frontier 14


I might be misreading, but why would the XLR be ordered for coast to coast flights?


As was mention above, F9's 321ceo's cannot do PHL, LGA, BOS to the west coast in the winter with the westerly headwinds without taking a load restriction or making a fuel stop. The new XLRs will have that nonstop capability with a full load even with the winter headwinds.

Frontier 14


I don’t believe any carrier is allowed to fly LGA to the west coast
 
pranav7478
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Re: Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:28 am

lightsaber wrote:
pranav7478 wrote:
i was pretty surprised. they must have gotten an insanely good deal, especially with reliability concerns of the gtf. like indigo for example switched from their gtf to leap after lots of issues with their gtfs. frontier did the opposite. might be the indigo partners group order, but even then i thought they would put leap for frontier and gtf for everyone else.

Everyone does realize the GTF reliability has improved dramatically?
https://www.msn.com/en-in/autos/news/pa ... r-BB1c6hlH

"With more than 180 GTF-powered aircraft in India and an extraordinary engine dispatch reliability rate of 99.98 per cent, our customers are recognising the superior fuel efficiency that GTF engines deliver. "Since cost savings are especially important in the current environment, we've seen airlines prioritise operating their GTF-powered aircraft before any others," she added.

"Thanks to upgrades completed in close coordination with our customers in 2020, GTF engines for the A320neo family are now delivering industry-leading reliability, said Carroll Lane, president of Commercial Engines at Pratt & Whitney. "When you combine this with our best-in-class fuel efficiency and low carbon emissions, it's easy to see why GTF-powered fleets have seen high utilization as the industry begins to recover,"

This took time, but there was investment. Ironically, the downturn let Pratt catch up. Indigo was rational switching as they had given Pratt a chance to fix the seals and the first attempt to fix the seals didn't go well:
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... m-a320neos

It appears the proposed fixes are working. Frontier would have access to data.

The deal wouldn't just be price. It would be promised maintenance costs, fuel burn, and reliability (with penalties).

We discussed in circles in this thread, basically, to sell , Pratt needed reliability. The have some advantage in fuel burn.

viewtopic.php?t=1372379

Lightsaber

Last link in prior thread, points out all the improvements in the Pratt engines.
http://www.mro-network.com/maintenance- ... pares-pool

thank you for the sources and explanation! it makes sense to me now
Planes I have flown on: CRJ-900, E175, E190, A319, A320, A321, A330-200, 717, 737-700, 737-800, 747-400, 747-8I, 757-200, 767-300, 777-200, 777-300(ER), 787-8, 787-9
Airlines I have flown on: AI, AS, BA, DL, 6E, 9W, B6, KE, SQ, WN, UA, US, VA
 
jbs2886
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Re: Frontier, Pratt & Whitney sign deal for GTF engines

Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:37 am

lostsound wrote:
Frontier14 wrote:
luv2cattlecall wrote:

I might be misreading, but why would the XLR be ordered for coast to coast flights?


As was mention above, F9's 321ceo's cannot do PHL, LGA, BOS to the west coast in the winter with the westerly headwinds without taking a load restriction or making a fuel stop. The new XLRs will have that nonstop capability with a full load even with the winter headwinds.

Frontier 14


I don’t believe any carrier is allowed to fly LGA to the west coast


Actually, they can. On Saturday’s only though.

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