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GayFA
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:30 pm

Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:28 am

Noshow wrote:
SunExpress had tried to serve long range routes for Eurowings with leased A330s. That didn't seem to work.
All this Cityline, EW and SN finally flying for LH group has become a pretty complex onion structure. And all this complexity and triple administration is intended to be cheaper?


Not sure if you ask a genuine question and I admit that Carsten didn't invite me to present me the numbers. But I find it easy enough to understand that a dedicated leisure airline within the Group is a more efficient setup than using two wetlease operators (Sunexpress & Brussels) with a couple of aircraft each.

I a way, it is de-onionizing. And LH Cityline had nothing to do with the former Eurowings longhaul. That was a different story altogether and has been killed of on the corona-wake de-onionizing as well.

Seems to me much needed simplifying is underway. Can't be a bad thing.
 
GayFA
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Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:30 pm

Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:29 am

Blerg wrote:
Why do they need a new entity? Seems like a waste. Why not use the regular EW or that hybrid airline SunExpress.


Because that was exactly the previous setup that didn't work efficiently?
 
Noshow
Posts: 2696
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:35 am

Cityline operated long range A340 for Lufthansa. Another LH "onionism". LH should simplify it's business like they only now finally simplify their fleet.
 
SJet45
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Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:40 am

Without trying to offend the loyal LH and DE folks, I suspect rightly or wrongly that this effort is driven entirely by LH to remove one of the last points of competition within the German market. More specifically, as a means to put Condor under. The most recent attempt by LH to cancel the LH/DE feeder agreements, the recalling of all LH pilots from DE, and the proposed EW/Discover routes, which specifically target Condor's network, are all an attempt to dilute Condor's ability to continue operations.

Shameful to me is that LH and DE management are unwilling to work together to find a mutually beneficial solution. Concerning to me is DE's inability or unwillingness to prepare for independent operations following both the Thomas Cook collapse and the termination of LOT's purchase and their lack of innovation during a very dynamic time. I'm hopeful that the recent announcement of the EU's siding with Condor on their complaint against LH's cancellation of their agreement will bring both company's leaders together to find a way to work together in the future. I have found the LH brand to be arrogant and clinical but effective from a business perspective. In equal measure, I respect Condor's ability to build a loyal customer network but find their strategy far too dependent on others. With the entire aviation market in a period of transition, here's to hoping for a mutually beneficial outcome.

Stay safe, everyone.
 
Noshow
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Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:50 am

They seem to have started talks recently which might indicate better relations again.

But from an LH overall perspective: Why is it preferable to split up everything into thousands of tiny bits, micro brands and companies, instead of harvesting and even exploiting the well established brand, fleet, network and administration you already have?
 
GayFA
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:30 pm

Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:40 pm

Noshow wrote:
Cityline operated long range A340 for Lufthansa. Another LH "onionism". LH should simplify it's business like they only now finally simplify their fleet.


Jep, as I said: nothing to do with the Eurowings longhaul operation.
 
GayFA
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:30 pm

Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:43 pm

Noshow wrote:
They seem to have started talks recently which might indicate better relations again.

But from an LH overall perspective: Why is it preferable to split up everything into thousands of tiny bits, micro brands and companies, instead of harvesting and even exploiting the well established brand, fleet, network and administration you already have?


Still a genuine question? You can’t figure out why the Group (well, all Airline Groups, really) is having different airlines/brands for differing markets, depending on achievable yield per market and customer segment?
 
DUSZRH
Posts: 303
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Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:17 pm

SJet45 wrote:
Without trying to offend the loyal LH and DE folks, I suspect rightly or wrongly that this effort is driven entirely by LH to remove one of the last points of competition within the German market. More specifically, as a means to put Condor under. The most recent attempt by LH to cancel the LH/DE feeder agreements, the recalling of all LH pilots from DE, and the proposed EW/Discover routes, which specifically target Condor's network, are all an attempt to dilute Condor's ability to continue operations.


You have the timeline wrong:
First was the bankruptcy. This led to DE sending back former LH pilots to LH (most of them, a few decided to stay at DE working conditions), not LH recalling them.

A quick reminder. When they split up DE retained pilots from LH on the comparatively very generous terms. New hires got a DE contract. Over the years, some moved back to LH, most retired.
As they were the most expensive work group (and LH had to take them back anyway, so no public backlash in firing them, given the state loan), they got sent back to LH right away. LH booked a three figure million charge with regards to pension provisions etc. (I would have to look up the exact number in the AR)

In my interpretation, the value of the feeder agreement for LH was that DE continued to employ and provide the pensions to those pilots. And to do so, it was imminent that it was not loss making. The bankruptcy altered that picture entirely.

BTW in my interpretation the 4Y/Discover is just a way to implement a lower cost structure provider. To let it fly “touristic routes” is just a way to make it more appealing to the public, while at the same time reducing the hours of mainline contract pilots (which are massively over staffed; pilots coming back from DE, from 4U, from Cargo plus fleet reduction)
 
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cathay747
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Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:32 pm

aerorobnz wrote:
Lufthansa by somebody else pretending to be someone different. Copy that.


Reminds me of the movie "Victor/Victoria": "A woman pretending to be a man, pretending to be a woman??"
 
GayFA
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:30 pm

Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:52 pm

DUSZRH wrote:
...


Well, it IS gonna be flying "Tourist routes" and predominantly ones that aren't flown by mainline. So yes, it is a lower cost structure to gain access to markets otherwise mostly too cost sensitive to be flown by mainline and hence not served at all. It is pretty straight forward, really.
 
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mercure1
Posts: 5235
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Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Fri May 21, 2021 2:37 pm

Discover Reveals New Summer 2022 Long-Haul Routes
https://simpleflying.com/lufthansa-new- ... tinations/

Fort Myers, Panama City, and Salt Lake City, Kilimanjaro, Punta Cana, Cancun and Las Vegas.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:07 pm

Interesting article on Lufthansa's move with Eurowings Discover. Flight Attendants only earn €1400 eur a month and the company refuses to rehire laid-off staff in favour of completely new staff.

https://www.swr.de/report/lufthansa-loh ... index.html
 
DUSZRH
Posts: 303
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Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:24 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Interesting article on Lufthansa's move with Eurowings Discover. Flight Attendants only earn €1400 eur a month and the company refuses to rehire laid-off staff in favour of completely new staff.

https://www.swr.de/report/lufthansa-loh ... index.html


FTE would be 2000€ and from July on every employee will be offered full time. Losing 500€ gross is still quite a cutback.
 
Noshow
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Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:39 pm

Lufthansa has been rescued by the German taxpayer. Their traditional high wages have not been sustainable anymore. For years they try to lower their cost base.
I understand the frustration of traditional LH staff but this issue really has two sides.
I think they should better reform the company core. But nobody including management seems to be willing to move an inch. Instead they build company owned competitors all the time trying to make their own core staff redundant.
 
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A321Lufthansa
Posts: 292
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Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:17 am

When will we see the first 4Y-painted aircraft?
 
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InnsbruckFlyer
Posts: 354
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:35 pm

Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:39 am

A321Lufthansa wrote:
When will we see the first 4Y-painted aircraft?


There's already one photo online:

Image
 
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seahawk
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Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:45 am

Noshow wrote:
Lufthansa has been rescued by the German taxpayer. Their traditional high wages have not been sustainable anymore. For years they try to lower their cost base.
I understand the frustration of traditional LH staff but this issue really has two sides.
I think they should better reform the company core. But nobody including management seems to be willing to move an inch. Instead they build company owned competitors all the time trying to make their own core staff redundant.


If the high wages are not sustainable, why did the taxpayer have to save a company which is not climate friendly?
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 4133
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:07 am

seahawk wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Lufthansa has been rescued by the German taxpayer. Their traditional high wages have not been sustainable anymore. For years they try to lower their cost base.
I understand the frustration of traditional LH staff but this issue really has two sides.
I think they should better reform the company core. But nobody including management seems to be willing to move an inch. Instead they build company owned competitors all the time trying to make their own core staff redundant.


If the high wages are not sustainable, why did the taxpayer have to save a company which is not climate friendly?


Easy question, but highly complex answer. One of many answers (and it nicely ties into the Condor-discussion a bit further up) is, that Lufthansa has (had?) pension obligations of around 6.7 bn EUR in its books prior Corona. This primarily dates back to old contracts, back to those old, golden, glory days. No employer nowadays offers terms that generous due to its financial burden down the road. Not saving Lufthansa would have meant that - as per German system - the Pensions-Sicherungs-Verein (PSV) would have had to step in and assume the 6.7 bn EUR obligation. This would have - in turn - meant a step jump in other employer contributions to the PSV, reducing the income and thus income taxes. Thus it was probably much cheaper for the federal government and the tax payer to save the company to avoid additional market distortions in other sectors. I wouldn´t be too surprised to see reports down the road that the rescue of Lufthansa earned the federal government a heavy profit (which, BTW, is quite acceptable to me - nothing comes for free).
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5497
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:13 am

Noshow wrote:
Lufthansa has been rescued by the German taxpayer. Their traditional high wages have not been sustainable anymore. For years they try to lower their cost base.
I understand the frustration of traditional LH staff but this issue really has two sides.
I think they should better reform the company core. But nobody including management seems to be willing to move an inch. Instead they build company owned competitors all the time trying to make their own core staff redundant.


No offense, but how much do you think airline staff are paid? Because from what I can gather, LH mainline pilots receive a completely typical wage (which is not massive) and the flight attendants on average receive a really miserable wage. Further, the few really senior pilots at Lufthansa who really do receive extraordinary wages, kept their jobs and conditions because of seniority!
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 1114
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:16 am

Flying-Tiger wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Lufthansa has been rescued by the German taxpayer. Their traditional high wages have not been sustainable anymore. For years they try to lower their cost base.
I understand the frustration of traditional LH staff but this issue really has two sides.
I think they should better reform the company core. But nobody including management seems to be willing to move an inch. Instead they build company owned competitors all the time trying to make their own core staff redundant.


If the high wages are not sustainable, why did the taxpayer have to save a company which is not climate friendly?


Easy question, but highly complex answer. One of many answers (and it nicely ties into the Condor-discussion a bit further up) is, that Lufthansa has (had?) pension obligations of around 6.7 bn EUR in its books prior Corona. This primarily dates back to old contracts, back to those old, golden, glory days. No employer nowadays offers terms that generous due to its financial burden down the road. Not saving Lufthansa would have meant that - as per German system - the Pensions-Sicherungs-Verein (PSV) would have had to step in and assume the 6.7 bn EUR obligation. This would have - in turn - meant a step jump in other employer contributions to the PSV, reducing the income and thus income taxes. Thus it was probably much cheaper for the federal government and the tax payer to save the company to avoid additional market distortions in other sectors. I wouldn´t be too surprised to see reports down the road that the rescue of Lufthansa earned the federal government a heavy profit (which, BTW, is quite acceptable to me - nothing comes for free).


It reminds me a bit of the financial crisis in 2008. Back than the swiss government had to bail out UBS. While very controversial at the moment, the government "earned" CHF 5bn with this "investment". The same can happen with corona bail outs, if the government is smart how to provide them.
 
DUSZRH
Posts: 303
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:10 pm

Another new destination: Halifax (YHZ) https://twitter.com/lufthansaNews/statu ... 1547469832
 
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lesfalls
Posts: 3548
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Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:40 am

According to LH's site, FRA-RSW is to be operated by an A340-300 with a LH flight code (nothing stated about it being operated by another airline) effective March 28 2022. LH possibly finally seeing the demand for an actual service instead of Eurowings Discover,
 
777luver
Posts: 587
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:12 am

lesfalls wrote:
According to LH's site, FRA-RSW is to be operated by an A340-300 with a LH flight code (nothing stated about it being operated by another airline) effective March 28 2022. LH possibly finally seeing the demand for an actual service instead of Eurowings Discover,


There was a point raised on the LH thread that the route will be operated by Eurowings A330 and the LH A340 is simply a placer because eurowings doesn't have their AOC yet and can't sell tickets. Could be wrong though
 
RvA
Posts: 519
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:27 am

777luver wrote:
lesfalls wrote:
According to LH's site, FRA-RSW is to be operated by an A340-300 with a LH flight code (nothing stated about it being operated by another airline) effective March 28 2022. LH possibly finally seeing the demand for an actual service instead of Eurowings Discover,


There was a point raised on the LH thread that the route will be operated by Eurowings A330 and the LH A340 is simply a placer because eurowings doesn't have their AOC yet and can't sell tickets. Could be wrong though


Indeed
 
cm642
Posts: 125
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Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:27 am

So Eurowings PHX-FRA is officially a no go anymore I assume???
 
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Terrier79
Posts: 78
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Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:47 am

777luver wrote:
lesfalls wrote:
According to LH's site, FRA-RSW is to be operated by an A340-300 with a LH flight code (nothing stated about it being operated by another airline) effective March 28 2022. LH possibly finally seeing the demand for an actual service instead of Eurowings Discover,


There was a point raised on the LH thread that the route will be operated by Eurowings A330 and the LH A340 is simply a placer because eurowings doesn't have their AOC yet and can't sell tickets. Could be wrong though

That‘s totally correct. Flights will be switched to 4Y code and metal in the close future.
By the way, the AOC has eventually been issued.

https://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/newsr ... icate.html
 
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IceCream
Posts: 161
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:46 pm

Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:52 pm

Terrier79 wrote:
777luver wrote:
lesfalls wrote:
According to LH's site, FRA-RSW is to be operated by an A340-300 with a LH flight code (nothing stated about it being operated by another airline) effective March 28 2022. LH possibly finally seeing the demand for an actual service instead of Eurowings Discover,


There was a point raised on the LH thread that the route will be operated by Eurowings A330 and the LH A340 is simply a placer because eurowings doesn't have their AOC yet and can't sell tickets. Could be wrong though

That‘s totally correct. Flights will be switched to 4Y code and metal in the close future.
By the way, the AOC has eventually been issued.

https://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/newsr ... icate.html

Looks like YYC5x/week and YHZ 3x/week will be destinations then as well.
 
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LAX772LR
Posts: 14168
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Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Sat Aug 14, 2021 8:37 pm

777luver wrote:
There was a point raised on the LH thread that the route will be operated by Eurowings A330 and the LH A340 is simply a placer because eurowings doesn't have their AOC yet and can't sell tickets. Could be wrong though

Does EuroDisco plan to offer cnnx via the mainline LH network, or are they P2P?



seahawk wrote:
If the high wages are not sustainable, why did the taxpayer have to save a company which is not climate friendly?

Remind us what transportation company is "climate friendly," or really any multi-billion dollar company, for that matter... :roll:
 
oldJoe
Posts: 648
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:49 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Lufthansa has been rescued by the German taxpayer. Their traditional high wages have not been sustainable anymore. For years they try to lower their cost base.
I understand the frustration of traditional LH staff but this issue really has two sides.
I think they should better reform the company core. But nobody including management seems to be willing to move an inch. Instead they build company owned competitors all the time trying to make their own core staff redundant.


No offense, but how much do you think airline staff are paid? Because from what I can gather, LH mainline pilots receive a completely typical wage (which is not massive) and the flight attendants on average receive a really miserable wage. Further, the few really senior pilots at Lufthansa who really do receive extraordinary wages, kept their jobs and conditions because of seniority!


What you can "gather" and what corresponds to reality is meaningless without facts to say at least.
Any source for your claims ???
 
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DABYT
Posts: 262
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:59 pm

Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:27 pm

Is there any reliable seat map of the discover A332 out there?
 
debonair
Posts: 4310
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:50 pm

Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:39 pm

@LAX772LR: full connex to the LH-Group network. That's the reason why LH tried to cancel the interline agreement with CONDOR, as EuroDisco flying the exact same routes, like PUJ.

@DABYT: NO! EuroDisco operates ex XG and ex WK A330 with different configurations.

Official homepage: https://www.discover-4y.com/
 
onwFan
Posts: 669
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: Eurowings Discover the new LH Group airline

Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:50 pm

Condor files its objection against LH group airlines to codeshare on EW’s transatlantic routes, saying that this, along with cancellation if the SPA is an effort to drive traffic to its affiliates and away from Condor.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... codeshares

I wonder how long they can sustain this battle - the SPA is now set to expire in May 2022. Before it’s too late, Condor should try to find a new strategic partner and possibly find a new niche in the German market.

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