Gang, was looking at flightaware the other day for KORD. Planes were departing to the West and I noted they appeared to be departing mid-field, i.e. between the main terminal and the International Terminal. I was surprised cause 28R starts at the east end of the International terminal. Then when I looked at a map of the airport I realized they must have been departing 28C, which does begin kinda mid-field. Is that normal? That's the shorter runway, why would they not be departing 28R instead. Just seemed odd to me. Is 28R still in use???

ORD launches from 28R at intersection N5. This allows traffic that has landed 28C to taxi east on P and cross 28R at GG and avoid them crossing in front of departing traffic. It enhances safety and if an aircraft needs the full length of 28R the tower will coordinate that request. FYI, they will depart from 10L at DD on the easterly flow.

I don't know for certain without seeing what you've seen, but I believe what this reflects is departures utilizing 28R from N5 in west flow. This operation allows 28C to be used for arrivals, which can then do an end-around taxi via P and EE to reach the terminals without crossing the active departure runway. This still allows something like 9,700' of runway from the shortened 28R for departures, which is ample for a vast majority of operations (and if they were using 28C, which is not typically a departure runway in west flow, its 10,800' would also be plenty).

It would be accommodated if a heavy departure needed or requested the full length of 28R, but minimizing the interaction between arrival and departure traffic both reduces controller workload and enhances safety.

steex wrote:

I don't know for certain without seeing what you've seen, but I believe what this reflects is departures utilizing 28R from N5 in west flow. This operation allows 28C to be used for arrivals, which can then do an end-around taxi via P and EE to reach the terminals without crossing the active departure runway. This still allows something like 9,700' of runway from the shortened 28R for departures, which is ample for a vast majority of operations (and if they were using 28C, which is not typically a departure runway in west flow, its 10,800' would also be plenty).

It would be accommodated if a heavy departure needed or requested the full length of 28R, but minimizing the interaction between arrival and departure traffic both reduces controller workload and enhances safety.

Looks like mcdu beat me to the punch - and to clarify, he's correct that the end-around taxi is typically via GG rather than EE as I indicated.

Would 28C ever be used for departures during snow?

I think its a brilliant operations move. Keeps the landing flow continuous and no aircraft crossing in front an aircraft waiting for takeoff. ATL and DFW have end of runway taxiways on part of their configurations, I wander why the FAA does not incorporate this into their operations.

william wrote:

I think its a brilliant operations move. Keeps the landing flow continuous and no aircraft crossing in front an aircraft waiting for takeoff. ATL and DFW have end of runway taxiways on part of their configurations, I wander why the FAA does not incorporate this into their operations.

There are infrastructure requirements for this sort of operation that go beyond the runways. Take the 24s at LAX: there's no taxiway between the runways so running departures from, say, E10 would not provide any benefit. Similarly, on the west side of CLT, V does not run the full length of 18C-36C.

And O'hare controllers always got a kick when I requested for 28R full length.....in a Caravan! One controller on a quite day just replied "Really?" and I replied "Nah, we'll launch wherever you want us to depart from!" That being said they will give full length occasionally to move the line along staggering departure certain directions.

ORD14R wrote:

Would 28C ever be used for departures during snow?

It was used plenty of times during a maintenance of 28R (snowplowing and runway cleaning). Same was with 10C. We will see tomorrow, it might be used for a while. I got plenty of shots of "Asian outflow" (mostly of Asian airlines and Asian direction departure series between 11am-1pm) from 28C with blowing snow because of jetblast. Will try tomorrow from the hills.

Before ORD reconfigured the Runways they would also sterilize a part of RWY 32R and use it as a taxiway for aircraft landing on 28R. They would run takeoffs on 32R as aircraft coming off of 28R would pass behind them turning into the ramp.

I have always thought O'hare was fascinating with all their unique operations.

Before the new runway layout started taking shape they would often depart off 32L at T10.

While I am sure not the only airport that does this, I do feel like O'hare does it more than other airports, is that true?

Also, on the topic of departures off 28C/10C, do they use that runway during times of high cross-wind? A few weeeks back they were doing arrivals on the 22s and departing on 28C instead of 28R at N5.

freakyrat wrote:

Before ORD reconfigured the Runways they would also sterilize a part of RWY 32R and use it as a taxiway for aircraft landing on 28R. They would run takeoffs on 32R as aircraft coming off of 28R would pass behind them turning into the ramp.

I think you meant 32L as there was no good way to taxi around 28R (also I believe it was 27R back then) for departure. Though I am sure if aircraft were arriving on 9L they could use 32R to exit.

Also, for nostalgia purposes, the old layout:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ORD_airport_map.gif

as739x wrote:

And O'hare controllers always got a kick when I requested for 28R full length.....in a Caravan!.

Just out of curiosity, who were you flying for then? 3E? Wondering because I’m a semifrequent traveler ORD-BRL on 3E and I love their little Caravan operation...

Two weeks ago a 777 took off on 28R full length and so did we (CRJ7) right behind it. I wondered why we didn't go from N5 like everyone else but then the wake turbulence avoidance lesson from ground school came back to me. Another time in an E145 we taxied onto 28R via N4, did a U-turn on the runway in front of everyone else lined up at N5, and took off from there. Fun times at O'Hare.

mpdpilot wrote:

I have always thought O'Hare was fascinating with all their unique operations.

Before the new runway layout started taking shape they would often depart off 32L at T10.

While I am sure not the only airport that does this, I do feel like O'Hare does it more than other airports, is that true?

Pre-new runways, ORD used over 20 different landing runway configurations depending on the wind, ceiling, visibility and runway condition (wet/dry) or a combination of factors.

When the winds allowed, 32L from T10 was probably the most common departure runway. It allowed us to free-roll departures while landing on the old 9R (10L) or old 27L (28R). Most importantly, it eliminated the need to cross a landing runway. From T-10 the remaining runway was 8,800'

DXB departs 12R from K3, K4 and K5 (when possible) to avoid a separation penalty with 12L arrivals, even in VFR. Unless things have changed since I left DXB, it was determined locally that departing from the full length of 12R was too close to the threshold of 12L to be considered separate runways even though there were parallel and did not intersect. A 12R full length departure could not roll if a 12L arrival was within 2 miles from touchdown. From K3,4 or 5 there was no restriction.

jetblastdubai wrote:

mpdpilot wrote:

I have always thought O'Hare was fascinating with all their unique operations.

Before the new runway layout started taking shape they would often depart off 32L at T10.

While I am sure not the only airport that does this, I do feel like O'Hare does it more than other airports, is that true?

Pre-new runways, ORD used over 20 different landing runway configurations depending on the wind, ceiling, visibility and runway condition (wet/dry) or a combination of factors.

When the winds allowed, 32L from T10 was probably the most common departure runway. It allowed us to free-roll departures while landing on the old 9R (10L) or old 27L (28R). Most importantly, it eliminated the need to cross a landing runway. From T-10 the remaining runway was 8,800'

DXB departs 12R from K3, K4 and K5 (when possible) to avoid a separation penalty with 12L arrivals, even in VFR. Unless things have changed since I left DXB, it was determined locally that departing from the full length of 12R was too close to the threshold of 12L to be considered separate runways even though there were parallel and did not intersect. A 12R full length departure could not roll if a 12L arrival was within 2 miles from touchdown. From K3,4 or 5 there was no restriction.

Fascinating!!

I am kind of surprised that it isn't more common at other airports, but that is a different topic.

mpdpilot wrote:

Also, on the topic of departures off 28C/10C, do they use that runway during times of high cross-wind? A few weeeks back they were doing arrivals on the 22s and departing on 28C instead of 28R at N5.

I'm no controller, just a casual observer, but I have noticed this happen quite regularly when landing the 22's. Not sure the reason for it though, perhaps someone more in the know can satiate my thirst for knowledge.

mpdpilot wrote:

freakyrat wrote:

Before ORD reconfigured the Runways they would also sterilize a part of RWY 32R and use it as a taxiway for aircraft landing on 28R. They would run takeoffs on 32R as aircraft coming off of 28R would pass behind them turning into the ramp.

I think you meant 32L as there was no good way to taxi around 28R (also I believe it was 27R back then) for departure. Though I am sure if aircraft were arriving on 9L they could use 32R to exit.

Also, for nostalgia purposes, the old layout:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ORD_airport_map.gif

Sorry about that I actually did mean 32L and 27L. I remember being on a flight as we pulled out for an intersection takeoff off of 32L and watched another jet pass behind us taxxiing off of 27R. In those days it sure kept traffic moving just the way the current operation does.

sircygnus wrote:

mpdpilot wrote:

Also, on the topic of departures off 28C/10C, do they use that runway during times of high cross-wind? A few weeeks back they were doing arrivals on the 22s and departing on 28C instead of 28R at N5.

I'm no controller, just a casual observer, but I have noticed this happen quite regularly when landing the 22's. Not sure the reason for it though, perhaps someone more in the know can satiate my thirst for knowledge.

Rwy 22R extended centerline is within 1 mile of Rwy 28R and has to be treated as a crossing Rwy operation. So when ORD is on the 22s we depart Rwy 28C so we can have a free roll Rwy and not have to wait for the a/c to be landing ensured on Rwy 22R.

Armadillo1 wrote:

is there any restrictions to cross runway behind taking off to avoid engines blow?

We go to GG on 28R and CC on 10L to cross behind as it provides for the 1000 ft needed to cross behind.

NWAJT8D wrote:

Two weeks ago a 777 took off on 28R full length and so did we (CRJ7) right behind it. I wondered why we didn't go from N5 like everyone else but then the wake turbulence avoidance lesson from ground school came back to me. Another time in an E145 we taxied onto 28R via N4, did a U-turn on the runway in front of everyone else lined up at N5, and took off from there. Fun times at O'Hare.

Standard wake turbulence delay for an aircraft behind a heavy aircraft is two minutes, the wake turbulence delay when taking off from a down field intersection behind a heavy is three minutes. If using full length for a heavy departure the next departure will usually be instructed to follow them to the full length for departure instead of using N5 to avoid the three minute separation delay.

This is good stuff, I love learning about the old O’Hare before it was reconfigured.

When are they going to begin regularly using 27C/9C? It had its official opening but it’s still not really used.

Also, heard somewhere that they can’t use 6 parallels at the same time, any truth to that?

Great, thx for info team. I guess this is part of the beauty of having a 13,000 ft runway (28R). Are there any other similar setups at any other US airports, i.e. where departing flights launch from somewhere other than a threshold? I've been flying for years and I've never seen it. Denver maybe?

richiemo wrote:

Great, thx for info team. I guess this is part of the beauty of having a 13,000 ft runway (28R). Are there any other similar setups at any other US airports, i.e. where departing flights launch from somewhere other than a threshold? I've been flying for years and I've never seen it. Denver maybe?

Many do. Some that come to mind are:

-JFK 31L at Taxiway KE when two departure runways are available.
-EWR 22R at Taxiway W pretty much all the time to avoid conflict with Runway 11/29. Only Asian flights will request the full runway.
-CDG for most flights to save taxi time.
-DXB as mentioned above.

Added: Sorry...you asked about US airports. I added those two because they're busy and relevant to the discussion.

Fascinating thread. I've often wondered about the different configurations (particularly when the 22s are in use). For info, this is the planned usage of runways at full build-out:
https://www.oharenoise.org/sitemedia/do ... 041218.pdf

leader1 wrote:

richiemo wrote:

Great, thx for info team. I guess this is part of the beauty of having a 13,000 ft runway (28R). Are there any other similar setups at any other US airports, i.e. where departing flights launch from somewhere other than a threshold? I've been flying for years and I've never seen it. Denver maybe?

Many do. Some that come to mind are:

-JFK 31L at Taxiway KE when two departure runways are available.
-EWR 22R at Taxiway W pretty much all the time to avoid conflict with Runway 11/29. Only Asian flights will request the full runway.
-CDG for most flights to save taxi time.
-DXB as mentioned above.

Added: Sorry...you asked about US airports. I added those two because they're busy and relevant to the discussion.

A couple more that come to mind at ATL 9L at M2 or T and BWI 28 at U1.

Back before the reconfiguration, I remember taking an Ozark flight ORD-PIA where we taxied to the "middle" of the old NW/SE runway on the west side (I forget the number), right next to T2 and took off, avoiding conflict with the E/W runway just south of T2. Only time I ever remember not going to one end or the other of an ORD runway.

gabik001 wrote:

ORD14R wrote:

Would 28C ever be used for departures during snow?

It was used plenty of times during a maintenance of 28R (snowplowing and runway cleaning). Same was with 10C. We will see tomorrow, it might be used for a while. I got plenty of shots of "Asian outflow" (mostly of Asian airlines and Asian direction departure series between 11am-1pm) from 28C with blowing snow because of jetblast. Will try tomorrow from the hills.

10C was used this morning a bit while 10L was closed for plowing.

maps4ltd wrote:

gabik001 wrote:

ORD14R wrote:

Would 28C ever be used for departures during snow?

It was used plenty of times during a maintenance of 28R (snowplowing and runway cleaning). Same was with 10C. We will see tomorrow, it might be used for a while. I got plenty of shots of "Asian outflow" (mostly of Asian airlines and Asian direction departure series between 11am-1pm) from 28C with blowing snow because of jetblast. Will try tomorrow from the hills.

10C was used this morning a bit while 10L was closed for plowing.

Yep, but I was not there because visibility was poor all day.

leader1 wrote:

richiemo wrote:

Great, thx for info team. I guess this is part of the beauty of having a 13,000 ft runway (28R). Are there any other similar setups at any other US airports, i.e. where departing flights launch from somewhere other than a threshold? I've been flying for years and I've never seen it. Denver maybe?

Many do. Some that come to mind are:

-EWR 22R at Taxiway W pretty much all the time to avoid conflict with Runway 11/29. Only Asian flights will request the full runway.

EWR standard ops is to go 22R at W. SQ21 (A350) did manage to go from W once or twice while I was spotting. Heavy's will sometimes take full length even if they aren't near the MTOW. General Aviation from Atlantic etc, Cargo stuff from the north cargo areas (Amerijet, Cargojet, some UPS).

richiemo wrote:

Great, thx for info team. I guess this is part of the beauty of having a 13,000 ft runway (28R). Are there any other similar setups at any other US airports, i.e. where departing flights launch from somewhere other than a threshold? I've been flying for years and I've never seen it. Denver maybe?

I've seen ATL depart 9L from M2 before, with landing aircraft on 9C and 9R taxiing back on N and crossing on P to L. Departing aircraft line up on M while aircraft that landed taxi back to the ramp on L.

JFK and EWR have already been mentioned, but as they're my home airports, they mean a lot to me xD. Departing 31L from KE allows aircraft to use 4R/22L. And EWR, 22L departures mostly use W, although Cargo and FBO on the north ramp will use full length, heavies sometimes request. full length, and on occasion I've seen United jets from the far end of concourse B and C cross 11/29 and take off from full length. Presumably to prevent bottle neck on Y or W between U and R.

LAX 25R will often go from F.

Is the intersection departure information published anywhere? I couldn't find anything in KORD FAA charts. I feel like the FAA would have that listed somewhere but maybe not?

AmricanShamrok wrote:

Fascinating thread. I've often wondered about the different configurations (particularly when the 22s are in use). For info, this is the planned usage of runways at full build-out:
https://www.oharenoise.org/sitemedia/do ... 041218.pdf

Thanks for this. I can now understand the griping I had heard from communities when 10R/28L was built. Seems 9C/27C renders it almost useless, probably because of proximity to 10C/28C. Currently in East flow 10R gets used a heck of alot more than the .9% of arrivals. I get the impression that instead of the occasional 28C departures we have been talking about in this thread those will switch to 10R/28L.

Does anyone know if Ohare Noise still publishes ACTUAL arrival/departure percentages by Runway by Month? I know I've seen them in the past, but the last few years I haven't seen them. The graphics look exactly like the one in the link, but are actuals for a given month.

mpdpilot wrote:

Is the intersection departure information published anywhere? I couldn't find anything in KORD FAA charts. I feel like the FAA would have that listed somewhere but maybe not?

I don't think so. I have a subscription that provides me access to Jeppesen charts, and I've never seen a US one with published intersection lengths. Dunno about LIDO.

Isn't there a website that show ORD ops? It showed the different flows.

leader1 wrote:

Many do. Some that come to mind are:

-JFK 31L at Taxiway KE when two departure runways are available.
-EWR 22R at Taxiway W pretty much all the time to avoid conflict with Runway 11/29. Only Asian flights will request the full runway.
-CDG for most flights to save taxi time.
-DXB as mentioned above.

Added: Sorry...you asked about US airports. I added those two because they're busy and relevant to the discussion.

EWR typically departs 22R at W, except when running the Stadium Visual to 29. I think they need more space to have simultaneous independent operations on 11/29 and 22R so they will depart 22R at Y in that case (next taxiway further from 11/29). I think W is typically used because things become more complex when runway crossings are involved (wrong turns, forgotten clearances, etc).

Crackshot wrote:

mpdpilot wrote:

Is the intersection departure information published anywhere? I couldn't find anything in KORD FAA charts. I feel like the FAA would have that listed somewhere but maybe not?

I don't think so. I have a subscription that provides me access to Jeppesen charts, and I've never seen a US one with published intersection lengths. Dunno about LIDO.

Yeah same. I know they used to publish it on the charts as I believe I have one that mentions the 32L at T10 departure, but yeah I couldn't find anything by searching.