I remember that KL used to operate the 747-400 Combi but is there any short-haul aircraft that operates as a combi? If not is there any chance that Boeing/Airbus could make an exception to change one of their A320/B737 to make it a combi if an airline were to order it?

Was thinking of it just now and thought it was interesting considering how KL did it. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Cheers,
Lesfalls

I know there are a couple of operates in Canada (Nolinor Aviation is definitely one) that have B732’s and B733’s in combi modes. These planes have the main cargo door at the front so freight/cargo sits at the front and passengers sit at the back of the plane.

Have a look on YouTube sure I’ve seen videos of this before on their.

lesfalls wrote:

I remember that KL used to operate the 747-400 Combi but is there any short-haul aircraft that operates as a combi? If not is there any chance that Boeing/Airbus could make an exception to change one of their A320/B737 to make it a combi if an airline were to order it?

Was thinking of it just now and thought it was interesting considering how KL did it. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Cheers,
Lesfalls

There are some airlines in Canada (Canadian North, Nolinor) that operate 737 Combis on their routes to remote northern communities. Until fairly recently Alaska Airlines operated some 737-400 Combis on intra Alaska routes.

Philippine747 wrote:

Ryukyu Air Commuter operates the Q400 Combi that has an extended rear hold and capacity for 50 pax.

Surprised those didn’t take off more. Horizon, Canadian carriers, SE Asia, etc.

I believe operating combi aircraft is more complicated and expensive due to fire suppression systems and the way the cabin has to be setup to prevent fumes or smoke from the cargo compartment entering the cabin if there ever was an issue, for such a niche market I don’t ever see Boeing or Airbus ever offering a product. The expense to make and certify it to just sell the odd few doesn’t justify it. They are good for airlines in places such as northern Canada that have large amounts of cargo to move and smaller passenger yields so two birds one stone type thing. But it really is that niche.

Did KLM use their combi's mainly on the LAX route?

I recall many years ago flying LHR-BRU on a Sabena 737 combi which had the seating behind the cargo area. I don’t recall off the top of my head which variant of the 737 it was but I suspect it was the 200 series.

North America was/is the place to fly on a combi these days. I flew the 732, 734 and HS-748 in combi configs

About new combis the problem is that it's more difficult to make them than before, the 737 combi has a moveable bulkhead between PAX and cargo, that isn't allowed anymore. A customer would need to be sure that he needs a third or half the plane for cargo, for the life of it.

Other than the 737 combi many people talk about in the posts above, Nepal Airlines used to operate the only Boeing built 757-200 Combi on routes to Hong Kong, Dubai and India.

Also, now ATI operates 757-200 converted combi.(see details in link below)
https://www.airtransport.cc/our-fleet/b757-200-combi/

Alitalia had MD11 combi too back then, but those are used on long haul routes mostly

Lastly, note that 747-400 Combi has been used on short haul routes regularly too although the aircraft is designed for long range operations. e.g. EVA Air operates their 747-400M regularly on HKG-TPE and MFM-TPE. I have flown on those on HKG-TPE.

How about Buffalo Airways with their ancient DC-3's? It also practically a combi...

Flyingsottsman wrote:

Did KLM use their combi's mainly on the LAX route?

KLM used the 747 combi’s on the AMS-IAH route for years.

andrew50 wrote:

Flyingsottsman wrote:

Did KLM use their combi's mainly on the LAX route?

KLM used the 747 combi’s on the AMS-IAH route for years.

I think they used them on AMS-ORD for a while too.

KL also served HKG and NRT with combis for many years

Video on the 757-200 Combi mentioned above is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=fU2FjiJkeaY

And here is a video on the Nolinor 737-200 Combi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csnaMnpU_BU

jumpjets wrote:

I recall many years ago flying LHR-BRU on a Sabena 737 combi which had the seating behind the cargo area. I don’t recall off the top of my head which variant of the 737 it was but I suspect it was the 200 series.

Sabena had 5 737-229Cs: OO-SDH,J,K,P & R
Interestingly, one of these (1979 era OO-SDR) is now C-GNRD with Nolinor and still in use as mentioned in the other replies (it flew yesterday from YZF to/from Diavik Diamond Mine).

Good afternoon,

I like the idea of combis. A unique aspect of aircraft engineering that adds a bit of difference while offering a potential platform for improved economics on certain routes/markets. Unfortunately they are no longer as popular, which I thought was because of the risk of fire being so close to passengers. Evidenced in SA295 when a B742M crashed after a fire erupted on the main deck and lacked an adequate fire suppression system. I stress that I may have conflated various points inadvertently, but as a result of the backlash the transportation of cargo so close to passengers led to the eventual rebalancing of how cargo is ferried.

I found this helpful:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/flight ... bi-planes/

Today combis are commonly used in harsh environments that are heavily reliant on the movement of a smaller community of passengers (but are very regular users of such services to access work), and those communities are equally dependent on the importation of large amount of vital types of cargo that cannot be transported by road. As mentioned by others, this occurs in Alaska; northern Canada; Greenland; Russia; and others.

As a result, I am not sure if there will ever by a newbuild design in the combi market, for sure a short haul variant may be is less likely. I would imagine airlines will prefer to use and convert the excess aircraft that have been dumped because of downturn from COVID-19 if they really need aircraft.

Stay safe
Chris.

KL also ran their 747 combis to JFK back in the day. Alaska Airlines also had 737-200QC combis

XLA2008 wrote:

I believe operating combi aircraft is more complicated and expensive due to fire suppression systems and the way the cabin has to be setup to prevent fumes or smoke from the cargo compartment entering the cabin if there ever was an issue, for such a niche market I don’t ever see Boeing or Airbus ever offering a product. The expense to make and certify it to just sell the odd few doesn’t justify it. They are good for airlines in places such as northern Canada that have large amounts of cargo to move and smaller passenger yields so two birds one stone type thing. But it really is that niche.

I also believe they got a rude shock after the Helderberg went down.

Forgot to mention in my earlier post... I know Astraeus somewhat converted a 757, not a true combi but they used half of the 757 for the Iron Maiden equipment and the other half for the band.

dcajet wrote:

There are some airlines in Canada (Canadian North, Nolinor) that operate 737 Combis on their routes to remote northern communities. Until fairly recently Alaska Airlines operated some 737-400 Combis on intra Alaska routes.

Adding to that there’s also Air Inuit who has 4- 200 Combi’s, 1- 300 Combi. A rare one that I want in my album is Chrono Aviation who have 2 matt black 732’s with only one being a combi.

3C (Air Chathams) in NZ was operating Convair 580's and their were more or less Combi's. When I flew with them half of the passenger cabin was full with cargo and in the rear there was space for large bulk items like a Jet Ski. There were rumours about the Convair's being replaced and according to this source they have in the meantime being replaced with ATR 72's.

Its not mentioned in the article, but I would expect the ATR's being used in a similar way. Maybe some of our resident NZ members can provde some insights.

Kiwi airline retires its historic aircraft

From my foggy memory, IR bought 2 x 747-286B(M) , but never actually used them as combi’s. They were always in full pax configuration.
Also KU bought a 747-469M which was also never used in combi config, but did have a hospital theatre between doors 4L/R & door 5L/R. Centre section only, the outside 3 seats remained in place.

I have always been fascinated with the Combi. Have flown on the Alaska 737-400 Combi a few times:



Sadly, Alaska retired the -400 combi in Oct 2017.

https://blog.alaskaair.com/alaska-airli ... e-retires/

StlHsvSfoSan wrote:

andrew50 wrote:

Flyingsottsman wrote:

Did KLM use their combi's mainly on the LAX route?

KLM used the 747 combi’s on the AMS-IAH route for years.

I think they used them on AMS-ORD for a while too.

I recall riding a KLM 747-SUD Combi DTW - AMS way back when.

cschleic wrote:

StlHsvSfoSan wrote:

andrew50 wrote:

KLM used the 747 combi’s on the AMS-IAH route for years.

I think they used them on AMS-ORD for a while too.

I recall riding a KLM 747-SUD Combi DTW - AMS way back when.

Lucky!!! Closest I came was a KLM Asia 744 Combi AMS-JFK

KL used to regularly operate their 744Ms on the YYZ-AMS route, prior to them being largely replaced by the A332 and 789 as their jumbos were being retired. I flew on one of them along this route, PH-BFE, in 2013.

As for new Combi aircraft, I believe they can no longer be built after what happened in the Helderberg crash back in 1987 (SAA 295), given the regulations introduced by the FAA in 1993 declaring the need for adequate fire suppression systems aboard newly-built aircraft to fight fires in the main-deck cargo holds, thus making Combi aircraft no longer viable. The final 747 Combi aircraft for instance was delivered in 2002 to KL.

Post #5 by wjcandee on this thread is a great, informative look at the unique history of the ATI combis: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1441123&p=22024441&hilit=Precision+combi#p22024441

737 combis are alive and well with Alaska
https://newsroom.alaskaair.com/2017-09- ... -freighter

Here in Canada, we probably have about 1/3 of the entire world’s > 19 seater combi fleet, consisting of:
732s
733s
734s
DH1s
DH3s
DH7
ATRs (invented in Canada by First Air)
HS7s (can be configured for as few as 4 pax)

5T just announced a few weeks ago they’ve bought a couple of 737NGs. Not sure if they will be converted to combis.

I believe these are all the Canadian airlines with combis:
Canadian North
Air North
Air Inuit
Air Creebec
Wasaya
Chrono Aviation (charter only)
Nolinor (charter only)
Air Tindi (DH7 is part of charter fleet)
Summit Air (charter only)

I think that’s all. I’m not sure if any of Perimeter’s DH8s are combis.

Plus there’s the 732 that serves the mine up in Northern Quebec.

Even in Canada though there are fewer now than 5 years ago. No more CV580s at Nolinor for example.

halrudy wrote:

KL also ran their 747 combis to JFK back in the day. Alaska Airlines also had 737-200QC combis

I flew a KL Combi (PH-BFT to be exact) MXP-SIN-SYD in 1998 - they clearly operated on a range of routes.

It sort of surprises me that there aren't any in Australia given the Canadian experience. But perhaps our remote communities are a ta different scale and ultimately less isolated (geography and weather)

trex8 wrote:

737 combis are alive and well with Alaska
https://newsroom.alaskaair.com/2017-09- ... -freighter

The 700s are pure freighters, the last of the Alaska 400 combis were retired a few years ago

452QX wrote:

trex8 wrote:

737 combis are alive and well with Alaska
https://newsroom.alaskaair.com/2017-09- ... -freighter

The 700s are pure freighters, the last of the Alaska 400 combis were retired a few years ago

my bad

Am I wrong in thinking that the A330s operated by Air Tanker on behalf of the Royal Air Force on the Brize Norton- Mount Pleasant (Falkland islands) route can/could also be operated as a combi aircraft?? I know that the RAF TriStars were...

On a side note, I have stepped onboard two combis in my life...fascinating stuff!
1) A DC-8/60, with seating a the back...but I fail to remember which airline it was...it was the mid 70s..I was a child.. the location was (I believe) a very quiet, rustic and remote Stansted airport, when it was just a very provincial secondary (tertiary!) airport in lush countryside settings...I believe the DC-8 was being used to transport thoroughbreds..
2) An Alitalia MD-11 that was about to operate a scheduled service to Mumbai, or Delhi I think. The bus to our aircraft got lost in bad weather in a very busy Fiumicino, and somehow ended up at the stairs of this beautiful shiny giant... We got up (ran up, in the pouring rain) only to find a dark, cold, unprepared cabin, with puzzled looking cleaners looking at us!

I seem to believe that one of the Canadian Arctic airlines used to operate combi ATRs... can someone confirm or correct this perhaps wrong memory??

Thanks

Dominion301 wrote:

Here in Canada, we probably have about 1/3 of the entire world’s > 19 seater combi fleet, consisting of:
732s
733s
734s
DH1s
DH3s
DH7
ATRs (invented in Canada by First Air)
HS7s (can be configured for as few as 4 pax)

5T just announced a few weeks ago they’ve bought a couple of 737NGs. Not sure if they will be converted to combis.

I believe these are all the Canadian airlines with combis:
Canadian North
Air North
Air Inuit
Air Creebec
Wasaya
Chrono Aviation (charter only)
Nolinor (charter only)
Air Tindi (DH7 is part of charter fleet)
Summit Air (charter only)

I think that’s all. I’m not sure if any of Perimeter’s DH8s are combis.

Plus there’s the 732 that serves the mine up in Northern Quebec.

Even in Canada though there are fewer now than 5 years ago. No more CV580s at Nolinor for example.

No STC for a 737NG Combi that I'm aware of; though one could conceivably piggyback on a lot of the engineering work for the full F conversion.

FlyingHonu001 wrote:

KL also served HKG and NRT with combis for many years

SIN and JKT too if not mistaken

End of 2002, start of 2003, KLM's 747 combi fleet was at it's peak :

5 747-206B(SUD) combi aircraft, PH-BUK, -BUL, -BUM, -BUN and -BUT
3 747-306 combi aircraft, PH-BUU, -BUV and -BUW
17 747-406 combi aircraft, PH-BFC, -BFD, -BFE, -BFF, -BFH, -BFI, -BFK, -BFM, -BFO, -BFP, -BFR, -BFS, BFT, -BFU,- BFV, -BFW and -BFY

A few were operated in the full pax mode, but most international destinations were operated one or more days a week by 747 combi's.

Note : If 9-11 would not have happened KLM's 747combi fleet would have been increased even further, two more 747-400combi's were scheduled to be delivered in feb 2006 (PH-BFZ) and in Feb 2007 (PH-BGB).
Both were cancelled and instead the first 747-400ERF aircraft were delivered in 2003 and the 747 classisc fleet (incl. 8 combi')s were phased out in 2003/2004, much earlier than original planned

jumpjets wrote:

I recall many years ago flying LHR-BRU on a Sabena 737 combi which had the seating behind the cargo area. I don’t recall off the top of my head which variant of the 737 it was but I suspect it was the 200 series.

One of OO-SDJ OO-SDK or OO-SDP B737 -229c also flown on the first from and to Manchester .Indeed “delta juliet” routinely flew the midday combi service to Manchester.

Sabena operated many combi jets including the 707, 727-29c, DC10, and 747. Freight was an important department for Sabena particularly to Africa .

oldannyboy wrote:

Am I wrong in thinking that the A330s operated by Air Tanker on behalf of the Royal Air Force on the Brize Norton- Mount Pleasant (Falkland islands) route can/could also be operated as a combi aircraft?? I know that the RAF TriStars were...

On a side note, I have stepped onboard two combis in my life...fascinating stuff!
1) A DC-8/60, with seating a the back...but I fail to remember which airline it was...it was the mid 70s..I was a child.. the location was (I believe) a very quiet, rustic and remote Stansted airport, when it was just a very provincial secondary (tertiary!) airport in lush countryside settings...I believe the DC-8 was being used to transport thoroughbreds..
2) An Alitalia MD-11 that was about to operate a scheduled service to Mumbai, or Delhi I think. The bus to our aircraft got lost in bad weather in a very busy Fiumicino, and somehow ended up at the stairs of this beautiful shiny giant... We got up (ran up, in the pouring rain) only to find a dark, cold, unprepared cabin, with puzzled looking cleaners looking at us!

I seem to believe that one of the Canadian Arctic airlines used to operate combi ATRs... can someone confirm or correct this perhaps wrong memory??

Thanks

Wrong they have no main deck cargo door or at a tangent no boom arm refuelling capacity either ( Cheapskate UK wouldn’t fund either !) so they are crippled as a multi roll platform.
Every other operator has the boom even Australia.

There was one Irish DC8 that actually went from combi to full passenger (main door removed) !

diverted wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

Here in Canada, we probably have about 1/3 of the entire world’s > 19 seater combi fleet, consisting of:
732s
733s
734s
DH1s
DH3s
DH7
ATRs (invented in Canada by First Air)
HS7s (can be configured for as few as 4 pax)

5T just announced a few weeks ago they’ve bought a couple of 737NGs. Not sure if they will be converted to combis.

I believe these are all the Canadian airlines with combis:
Canadian North
Air North
Air Inuit
Air Creebec
Wasaya
Chrono Aviation (charter only)
Nolinor (charter only)
Air Tindi (DH7 is part of charter fleet)
Summit Air (charter only)

I think that’s all. I’m not sure if any of Perimeter’s DH8s are combis.

Plus there’s the 732 that serves the mine up in Northern Quebec.

Even in Canada though there are fewer now than 5 years ago. No more CV580s at Nolinor for example.

No STC for a 737NG Combi that I'm aware of; though one could conceivably piggyback on a lot of the engineering work for the full F conversion.

Boeing built several 73G combis both for the US gov't and a few for commercial operators, including Air Algerie. PEMCO has a STC for a movable bulkhead 73G combi, but it only has a max 24 pax capacity: http://www.b737.org.uk/737-700c.htm#:~: ... passengers.

First Air aka Canadian North are expects at working with Transport Canada to turn full pax aircraft that have never been combi'd into combis. They first did so with the world's only 727-200C, then with the ATRs, followed by the 734C fixed bulkhead...even though AS did that one first.

It's entirely possible the 73Gs 5T acquired won't be for combi'ing and will be for charter work...would not surprise me if they want to get more into sports charters.

YYZSpotter1991 wrote:

KL used to regularly operate their 744Ms on the YYZ-AMS route, prior to them being largely replaced by the A332 and 789 as their jumbos were being retired. I flew on one of them along this route, PH-BFE, in 2013.

As for new Combi aircraft, I believe they can no longer be built after what happened in the Helderberg crash back in 1987 (SAA 295), given the regulations introduced by the FAA in 1993 declaring the need for adequate fire suppression systems aboard newly-built aircraft to fight fires in the main-deck cargo holds, thus making Combi aircraft no longer viable. The final 747 Combi aircraft for instance was delivered in 2002 to KL.

To me that sounds like 9 years of viability: 1993 to 2002.

Kent350787 wrote:

It sort of surprises me that there aren't any in Australia given the Canadian experience. But perhaps our remote communities are a ta different scale and ultimately less isolated (geography and weather)

Trucks and to a lesser extent rail handle cargo in Australia- remember there's not ice to contend with. Having said that there are a bunch of 737 freighters and smaller aircraft that fly around Australia.

If you really want 747 combi fun, look for pics of Alitalia, KLM and UTA 747-200/300 combis with the cabin separator behind door 3 (no door markings around doors 4 & 5- or in the case of UTA, no green doors). I managed to ride an AZ one from SIN-SYD- it was great and only 25 pax on board!

I believe KLM used to regularly operate DC8 combis into LHR way back.

452QX wrote:

trex8 wrote:

737 combis are alive and well with Alaska
https://newsroom.alaskaair.com/2017-09- ... -freighter

The 700s are pure freighters, the last of the Alaska 400 combis were retired a few years ago

Oddly enough you can still find the 734 combi webpage on AS’ website if you google AS 737-400 combi.

rutankrd wrote:

oldannyboy wrote:

Am I wrong in thinking that the A330s operated by Air Tanker on behalf of the Royal Air Force on the Brize Norton- Mount Pleasant (Falkland islands) route can/could also be operated as a combi aircraft?? I know that the RAF TriStars were...

On a side note, I have stepped onboard two combis in my life...fascinating stuff!
1) A DC-8/60, with seating a the back...but I fail to remember which airline it was...it was the mid 70s..I was a child.. the location was (I believe) a very quiet, rustic and remote Stansted airport, when it was just a very provincial secondary (tertiary!) airport in lush countryside settings...I believe the DC-8 was being used to transport thoroughbreds..
2) An Alitalia MD-11 that was about to operate a scheduled service to Mumbai, or Delhi I think. The bus to our aircraft got lost in bad weather in a very busy Fiumicino, and somehow ended up at the stairs of this beautiful shiny giant... We got up (ran up, in the pouring rain) only to find a dark, cold, unprepared cabin, with puzzled looking cleaners looking at us!

I seem to believe that one of the Canadian Arctic airlines used to operate combi ATRs... can someone confirm or correct this perhaps wrong memory??

Thanks

Wrong they have no main deck cargo door or at a tangent no boom arm refuelling capacity either ( Cheapskate UK wouldn’t fund either !) so they are crippled as a multi roll platform.
Every other operator has the boom even Australia.

There was one Irish DC8 that actually went from combi to full passenger (main door removed) !

Don’t forget how they’re also leased to package holiday airlines when not needed to recoup costs.

Aesma wrote:

About new combis the problem is that it's more difficult to make them than before, the 737 combi has a moveable bulkhead between PAX and cargo, that isn't allowed anymore. A customer would need to be sure that he needs a third or half the plane for cargo, for the life of it.

It's much easier to certify a combo that has the main deck cargo section located forward of he passenger section line the 737-400 combi rather than have the cargo section aft of the passengers as in the 747-400 combi. This means new combi aircraft wouldn't be useful for flying to airports with jet bridges.

eta unknown wrote:

YYZSpotter1991 wrote:

KL used to regularly operate their 744Ms on the YYZ-AMS route, prior to them being largely replaced by the A332 and 789 as their jumbos were being retired. I flew on one of them along this route, PH-BFE, in 2013.

As for new Combi aircraft, I believe they can no longer be built after what happened in the Helderberg crash back in 1987 (SAA 295), given the regulations introduced by the FAA in 1993 declaring the need for adequate fire suppression systems aboard newly-built aircraft to fight fires in the main-deck cargo holds, thus making Combi aircraft no longer viable. The final 747 Combi aircraft for instance was delivered in 2002 to KL.

To me that sounds like 9 years of viability: 1993 to 2002.

KLM was one of the few airlines who opted to undertake the additional expense for that long, though after 9/11 and the subsequent downturn, they cancelled any remaining orders they had past 2002 and the few other airlines did the same with theirs.

TNT had one, a 757 - I don`t know if it is still in the fleet. OO-TFA operated on behalf of NATO. Few pictures on A Net of that one.

I remember years ago Britannia Airways here in the UK was a major Boeing 737-200 operator and if I remember rightly, they had two Boeing 737-200C's G-AXNA and G-AXNB which was both cargo convertible, both sadly now long gone.