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micstatic
Posts: 841
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Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:58 am

I always wondered why the faa permits valleys like this. Atlanta is another example.
 
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CrewBunk
Posts: 222
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Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:45 am

micstatic wrote:
I always wondered why the faa permits valleys like this. Atlanta is another example.


Toronto as well. The cliff/valley at the end of 24 L/R has claimed two airframes and two lives. Still .... it exists.
If you respond with a two page answer, obviously pre-prepared, I’m not going to bother reading it. Odds are, no one else is either!
 
rbavfan
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Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:13 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Expanding upon that: an orphan aircraft (just 156 built), probably about 20 years old, with few remaining operators. IMHO the only question is if the value of the airplane exceeds DL's deductible so they might see a check - and I would guess it does not.


Are not most of DL airframes owned by Boeing?
 
Leej
Posts: 411
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Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:20 am

Wouldn't a relatively cheap and simple solution be to place EMAS blocks around the perimeter of these vulnerable areas?
 
Armadillo1
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Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:59 am

this is taxiway, not a runway. who will install EMAS at the end of taxiway?
 
Leej
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Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 10:39 pm

Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:27 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
this is taxiway, not a runway. who will install EMAS at the end of taxiway?


Maybe PIT or other other airports, after the inevitable does happen. They are really only glorified cinder blocks after all. At relatively slow speeds you probably only need to catch the nosewheel. Can you imagine what the outcome would have been if this plane was going just a little faster, or a second or two delay in the pilot's reaction?
 
bennett123
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Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:17 pm

IMO, if in the future an aircraft does end up in a ditch/ravine and this risk was not taken on board then the Airport could be taken to the cleaners.
 
Leej
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Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:25 pm

bennett123 wrote:
IMO, if in the future an aircraft does end up in a ditch/ravine and this risk was not taken on board then the Airport could be taken to the cleaners.


Well at least now the FAA and airport are aware. The airport is public ownership no? Bit different to here in the UK. Even if they didn't reconfigure, or use a few EMAS blocks, what about some cabled barriers like on the motorway/highway to catch front of aircraft?
 
alasizon
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Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:51 pm

Leej wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
IMO, if in the future an aircraft does end up in a ditch/ravine and this risk was not taken on board then the Airport could be taken to the cleaners.


Well at least now the FAA and airport are aware. The airport is public ownership no? Bit different to here in the UK. Even if they didn't reconfigure, or use a few EMAS blocks, what about some cabled barriers like on the motorway/highway to catch front of aircraft?


EMAS would likely still be cheaper and cause less damage to the frame.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
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PITingres
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Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:52 pm

micstatic wrote:
I always wondered why the faa permits valleys like this. Atlanta is another example.


Presumably because the additional runway length is worth it? After all, you aren't supposed to go off the edge...

And in terrain like PIT's, there's no way to avoid ravines and slopes. I can't imagine what it would cost to fill everything in, never mind that there's actually "stuff" down there (rental car overflow and service lots) that would all have to be relocated. Yes, in an ideal world, the airport might be a flat board, but this is real life.
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
DLATL
Posts: 30
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Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:42 pm

PITingres wrote:
micstatic wrote:
I always wondered why the faa permits valleys like this. Atlanta is another example.


Presumably because the additional runway length is worth it? After all, you aren't supposed to go off the edge...

And in terrain like PIT's, there's no way to avoid ravines and slopes. I can't imagine what it would cost to fill everything in, never mind that there's actually "stuff" down there (rental car overflow and service lots) that would all have to be relocated. Yes, in an ideal world, the airport might be a flat board, but this is real life.

I agree. Also, a valley (in the situation that we are looking at) wouldn’t be much different than a body of water. Sure, freak accidents like this happen, but why should one airport have to fill in a big hill when at other airports there are beaches or lakes at the end of the runway or by a taxiway & 99.9% of the planes operate without a problem?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8838
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:26 am

Aircraft is scheduled to ferry PIT-ATL Monday morning
Mon 2/15 B712 PIT-ATL 9547 N998AT 9936
 
777Mech
Posts: 1212
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:05 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Aircraft is scheduled to ferry PIT-ATL Monday morning
Mon 2/15 B712 PIT-ATL 9547 N998AT 9936


And scheduled for revenue service after arriving into ATL.

Some folks are eating crow in this thread..
 
DL777200LR
Posts: 158
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:15 am

Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:06 pm

777Mech wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Aircraft is scheduled to ferry PIT-ATL Monday morning
Mon 2/15 B712 PIT-ATL 9547 N998AT 9936


And scheduled for revenue service after arriving into ATL.

Some folks are eating crow in this thread..


But it was supposed to be a write off lolol
Nothing better than the sound of a 77W GE90-115B on engine start.
 
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KLASM83
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Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:24 pm

McDonnell Douglas made a tough airplane!
"The goodness of the true pun is in the direct ratio of its intolerability" -Edgar Allan Poe

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Seat1D
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Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:40 pm

777Mech wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Aircraft is scheduled to ferry PIT-ATL Monday morning
Mon 2/15 B712 PIT-ATL 9547 N998AT 9936


And scheduled for revenue service after arriving into ATL.

Some folks are eating crow in this thread..


commendable job by the DL pilots in preventing what could've had a completely different ending
 
twaconnie
Posts: 298
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:18 pm

Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:30 pm

PITingres wrote:
micstatic wrote:
I always wondered why the faa permits valleys like this. Atlanta is another example.


Presumably because the additional runway length is worth it? After all, you aren't supposed to go off the edge...

And in terrain like PIT's, there's no way to avoid ravines and slopes. I can't imagine what it would cost to fill everything in, never mind that there's actually "stuff" down there (rental car overflow and service lots) that would all have to be relocated. Yes, in an ideal world, the airport might be a flat board, but this is real life.


There,s lots of airports in mountainous regions that have large drop-offs at end of runways, another PA. airport is Wilkes-Barre/Scranton.
 
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litz
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Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:06 pm

I guess under all that snow, it's a fairly soft earthen slope. Snow and mud can cushion things a good bit.
 
UA444
Posts: 3087
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:42 pm

But but but it’s an orphan plane so DL will want to scrap it!
 
codc10
Posts: 3144
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:45 pm

Seat1D wrote:
777Mech wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Aircraft is scheduled to ferry PIT-ATL Monday morning
Mon 2/15 B712 PIT-ATL 9547 N998AT 9936


And scheduled for revenue service after arriving into ATL.

Some folks are eating crow in this thread..


commendable job by the DL pilots in preventing what could've had a completely different ending


I'm all for kudos to crews when due, but in this case I don't think they had much say in the matter. Once the sliding starts, it's pretty much out of the crew's hands, as brakes are ineffective and attempting to use engine power could have compounded the problem.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:08 pm

bennett123 wrote:
IMO, if in the future an aircraft does end up in a ditch/ravine and this risk was not taken on board then the Airport could be taken to the cleaners.


You’d have a heart attack if you looked at the ends of São Paulo Congonhas! Both ends probably drop 150’ into the city below.
 
kiowa
Posts: 870
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Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:28 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
IMO, if in the future an aircraft does end up in a ditch/ravine and this risk was not taken on board then the Airport could be taken to the cleaners.


You’d have a heart attack if you looked at the ends of São Paulo Congonhas! Both ends probably drop 150’ into the city below.


The one that scares me is the runway in Branson Mo that a crew landed at by mistake a few years ago and managed to stop before dropping off a cliff onto a freeway.
 
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vatveng
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Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:52 pm

alasizon wrote:
Leej wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
IMO, if in the future an aircraft does end up in a ditch/ravine and this risk was not taken on board then the Airport could be taken to the cleaners.


Well at least now the FAA and airport are aware. The airport is public ownership no? Bit different to here in the UK. Even if they didn't reconfigure, or use a few EMAS blocks, what about some cabled barriers like on the motorway/highway to catch front of aircraft?


EMAS would likely still be cheaper and cause less damage to the frame.


Heck, in this situation a regular Jersey barrier would probably be enough to catch a taxiing airliner sliding sideways on ice.
 
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PITingres
Posts: 1362
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:59 am

Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:36 am

kiowa wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
IMO, if in the future an aircraft does end up in a ditch/ravine and this risk was not taken on board then the Airport could be taken to the cleaners.


You’d have a heart attack if you looked at the ends of São Paulo Congonhas! Both ends probably drop 150’ into the city below.


The one that scares me is the runway in Branson Mo that a crew landed at by mistake a few years ago and managed to stop before dropping off a cliff onto a freeway.


Take a look at CRW. My dad flew into it on business a few times, late in his (non-aviation) career. He said he nearly browned the seat the first time, watching that mountainside get closer and closer. Perhaps somewhat ironically, given the subject here, they did try to fill out part of the overrun area, only to have to fall off in a massive landslide.

I'm sure there are even better examples to be found. Sometimes you just have to work with the terrain you have.
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
Yeastbeast
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:03 pm

Re: DL 717 slides off taxiway @ PIT

Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:42 am

DLATL wrote:
PITingres wrote:
micstatic wrote:
I always wondered why the faa permits valleys like this. Atlanta is another example.


Presumably because the additional runway length is worth it? After all, you aren't supposed to go off the edge...

And in terrain like PIT's, there's no way to avoid ravines and slopes. I can't imagine what it would cost to fill everything in, never mind that there's actually "stuff" down there (rental car overflow and service lots) that would all have to be relocated. Yes, in an ideal world, the airport might be a flat board, but this is real life.

I agree. Also, a valley (in the situation that we are looking at) wouldn’t be much different than a body of water. Sure, freak accidents like this happen, but why should one airport have to fill in a big hill when at other airports there are beaches or lakes at the end of the runway or by a taxiway & 99.9% of the planes operate without a problem?

Wouldn't really need to "fill it in", just build up some extra room on pilings. Medeira has a runway built on pilings over the ocean. Would only have to a couple hundred extra there in PIT.
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