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basspaul
Topic Author
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:18 pm

Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:45 pm

Not a big surprise, but Bombardier is finally ending Learjet production this year:

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/bombardier- ... -1.1562348

IMHO, the Lear85 fiasco was the biggest nail in the coffin not only for Learjet, but ultimately Bombardier as a whole. Had they not lost all that money in the L85 program, they may have been able to hold onto the CSeries.
 
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FLALEFTY
Posts: 988
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Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:32 pm

Here's another article describing the impact of Learjet shutting down:

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/bombardier- ... -1.5304555

Since most of Learjet's workforce is located in Wichita, this will be yet another blow to the city's once-robust aerospace industry. This does make me wonder how much longer Bombardier will hold on to the Challenger/Global Express business? As the article states, Bombardier has sold off major chunks of their business leaving little remaining.

Would Textron make a play for the Challenger/Global Express operations? This would fill a void in their portfolio since they don't directly compete in the profitable large/long-range business jet market. Since Bombardier has been in the process of shutting down Downsview, this would be a good opportunity for Textron to buyout and move those operations to Wichita.
 
slcguy
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:09 pm

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:37 pm

Love them or hate them the Learjet family was iconic, 58 years in production. Sad to see them go.
Getting off topic a bit here, but it's a question that doesn't need a whole thread about it but is related.
What is the correct way to pronounce Bombardier? I've heard three ways.
Bombar-deer (similar to the person that drops the bomb in a bomber)
Bombar-dee-ay
Bomb-bar-jay (like in the news report)

Just something I always wondered. Very seldom had to say it, if I did, just said Bombar-slur mumble LOL
Last edited by slcguy on Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5498
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:48 pm

slcguy wrote:
What is the correct way to pronounce Bombardier? I've heard three ways.
Bombar-deer (similar to the person that drops the bomb in a bomber)
Bombar-dee-ay
Bomb-bar-jay (like in the news report)


It's French. You don't pronounce the last R:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHgF4-S0_y8
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9432
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:52 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
This does make me wonder how much longer Bombardier will hold on to the Challenger/Global Express business?


After the rail sale to Alstom, and Lear, is there anything left BUT Challenger/Global Express?
 
slcguy
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:09 pm

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:01 pm

VSMUT wrote:
slcguy wrote:
What is the correct way to pronounce Bombardier? I've heard three ways.
Bombar-deer (similar to the person that drops the bomb in a bomber)
Bombar-dee-ay
Bomb-bar-jay (like in the news report)


It's French. You don't pronounce the last R:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHgF4-S0_y8


Thanks, sounds like Bombar-dee-ay is the right way in the video. Needless to say, I did not do well in my 8th grade French class all those years ago LOL
 
Noshow
Posts: 2402
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Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:29 pm

It's sad to see how they lost their heading. It has been some long descent. Who was responsible for this mess?
They did build good, solid aircraft and had a global customer base. Once they were even close to tie up with Boeing. I am glad the CSeries survived with Airbus.
I liked how they beefed up the original CRJ with better windows and cabin comfort.
 
basspaul
Topic Author
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:47 pm

slcguy wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
slcguy wrote:
What is the correct way to pronounce Bombardier? I've heard three ways.
Bombar-deer (similar to the person that drops the bomb in a bomber)
Bombar-dee-ay
Bomb-bar-jay (like in the news report)


It's French. You don't pronounce the last R:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHgF4-S0_y8


Thanks, sounds like Bombar-dee-ay is the right way in the video. Needless to say, I did not do well in my 8th grade French class all those years ago LOL


The D is a "soft d" in french, so it's ...-dee-ay" but the dee is very short and goes straight to the ay sound.

Here's a french video about today's announcement where you can here pronounced properly:

https://www.tvanouvelles.ca/2021/02/11/ ... 600-postes
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5498
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:56 pm

Noshow wrote:
It's sad to see how they lost their heading. It has been some long descent. Who was responsible for this mess?
They did build good, solid aircraft and had a global customer base. Once they were even close to tie up with Boeing. I am glad the CSeries survived with Airbus.
I liked how they beefed up the original CRJ with better windows and cabin comfort.


They were flip-flopping forever with the CRJ and the C-series. They started in the late 90s with the CRJ-700, but at the same time began studying the BRJ-X (C-series), initially together with Fokker. They then set the BRJ-X aside in favour of the CRJ-X (CRJ-900), which was never really standardized with the CRJ-700. In 2004/5 they picked it up again, then dropped it in 2006 in favour of the CRJ-900 NextGen and CRJ-1000. They then picked it up again in 2007, running it in parallel with the CRJ-1000. At least 15 years of indecision while Embraer racked up over 1000 sales for a similar jet. It was a similar story for the Q400. Overambitious, too much overlap with the CRJ, several proposals to update and stretch it, lack of commonality with smaller family members and a competitor with a single much more stable product.

IMO, they were too diverse for their own good. The Q400, CRJ-900/1000 and CS100 sat within 10-20 seats of each other, all designed for roughly the same job. Had they made the Q400 less capable and introduced an updated Q300, dumped one of the regional jet programs and gone all in on the other, the results might have been different. They also failed to realize the potential in manufacturing new and lightly upgraded Twin Otters and similar small aircraft.
 
basspaul
Topic Author
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:59 pm

Noshow wrote:
It's sad to see how they lost their heading. It has been some long descent. Who was responsible for this mess?
They did build good, solid aircraft and had a global customer base. Once they were even close to tie up with Boeing. I am glad the CSeries survived with Airbus.
I liked how they beefed up the original CRJ with better windows and cabin comfort.


In my opinion, it was a management failure with regards to cashflow management. From what I understood the "big plan" was for them is: design the Cseries, as the program wound down, start the Global 7000 and then the next program. What happened: The Cseries ran late, they started the Global 7/8 in parallel. Then they decided to launch the L85. They ended up having 3 clean sheets being developed in parallel, this lead to having to "triple" the engineering workforce. This used up a ton of cashflow which forced them to take on a lot of debt. The L85 is cancelled, $3 billion lost. At the same time the RJ and Dash-8 programs are running out of steam (market forces, not mismanagement per se) reducing income. The debt just snowballed from then on to the point where they had to liquidate or go bankrupt. The L85 looked like it was a pet project of the board with no real road to success, even without the problems that led to its cancellation.

I can't speak of the train business, but from what I heard, it wasn't paradise over there either.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7571
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:30 pm

slcguy wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
slcguy wrote:
What is the correct way to pronounce Bombardier? I've heard three ways.
Bombar-deer (similar to the person that drops the bomb in a bomber)
Bombar-dee-ay
Bomb-bar-jay (like in the news report)


It's French. You don't pronounce the last R:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHgF4-S0_y8


Thanks, sounds like Bombar-dee-ay is the right way in the video. Needless to say, I did not do well in my 8th grade French class all those years ago LOL


And, I’ve heard Bom-BARD-z-ay by locals, that makes four ways.
 
9252fly
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:51 pm

Any chance someone will buy the Learjet program from Bombardier?
 
steviebas
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:00 pm

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:58 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
slcguy wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

It's French. You don't pronounce the last R:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHgF4-S0_y8


Thanks, sounds like Bombar-dee-ay is the right way in the video. Needless to say, I did not do well in my 8th grade French class all those years ago LOL


And, I’ve heard Bom-BARD-z-ay by locals, that makes four ways.


As an employee - Bom bar dee aay
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
Posts: 317
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Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:37 pm

They still make Snowmobiles and Jetskis, no?
learning never stops...

FischAutoTechGarten is the full handle and it reflects my interest. It's abbreviated to fit A.net short usernames.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3715
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:44 pm

I will also note that the market had moved on from Learjet.

They were getting squeezed from both the higher end, and from the low end.

The market for business jets had moved on from the Learjet as it was increasingly too small; the Learjet has a cabin cross section that was smaller than its stable mate, the Challenger, and was also smaller than its competitors, the Legacy 450 and the Citation Latitudes.

From the lower end, they were getting squeezed by the very light jets, such as the Citation M2, and the Phenom 100.

Coupled to the issues with development with the Learjet 85, the writing was on the wall for the Learjet family.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3715
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:46 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
They still make Snowmobiles and Jetskis, no?

That part of the company got spun off as Bombardier Recreational Products, or BRP about a decade ago.
 
IAmGaroott
Posts: 135
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:37 pm

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:59 pm

How long until someone purchases the IP and tries to reboot it?
 
Iluvtofly
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:22 pm

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:37 pm

slcguy wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
slcguy wrote:
What is the correct way to pronounce Bombardier? I've heard three ways.
Bombar-deer (similar to the person that drops the bomb in a bomber)
Bombar-dee-ay
Bomb-bar-jay (like in the news report)


It's French. You don't pronounce the last R:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHgF4-S0_y8


Thanks, sounds like Bombar-dee-ay is the right way in the video. Needless to say, I did not do well in my 8th grade French class all those years ago LOL


This is correct Bombar - dee - ay
Flown - B707 727 737 747 757 767 777 787 A300 310 319 320 321 330 340 Concorde BAC111 TU154 VC10 F27 F28 F100 DC3 DC8 DC9 DC10 L1011 L188 DHC6 DHC7 DHC8 E135 E145 HS748 MD11 ST27 CV580 S340 ATR42 J31
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:51 pm

IAmGaroott wrote:
How long until someone purchases the IP and tries to reboot it?


Long time, I’m afraid.
 
YYZSpotter1991
Posts: 125
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:32 pm

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:26 pm

Unfortunately, there's very little left of the company, having sold off the majority of their divisions and product lines, now with Bombardier Rail acquired by Alstom, the CSeries largely acquired by Airbus, the CRJ line acquired by Mitsubishi, and the Challenger business jet division having been sold or will soon be. They don't exactly have many sustainable profit centres left.
Toronto-based flyer since 1997
 
CXH
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:37 am

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:43 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
They still make Snowmobiles and Jetskis, no?

That part of the company got spun off as Bombardier Recreational Products, or BRP about a decade ago.


Even longer ago, actually. BRP was spun off in 2003.

Ironically, BRP has been quite profitable for several years. Maybe the Bombardier-Beaudoin family should have stuck with recreational products and sold the aviation and rail business to others 18 years ago!

https://www.brp.com/en/about-brp/our-story.html
I've seen the future, I can't afford it. - Martin Fry
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
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Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:21 am

ThePointblank wrote:
I will also note that the market had moved on from Learjet.

They were getting squeezed from both the higher end, and from the low end.

The market for business jets had moved on from the Learjet as it was increasingly too small; the Learjet has a cabin cross section that was smaller than its stable mate, the Challenger, and was also smaller than its competitors, the Legacy 450 and the Citation Latitudes.

From the lower end, they were getting squeezed by the very light jets, such as the Citation M2, and the Phenom 100.

Coupled to the issues with development with the Learjet 85, the writing was on the wall for the Learjet family.

This sums it up.
Embraer competes with the E300 and Praetor family as well as noted Legacy.
Cessna has a whole bunch of CJ#+s and the Latitude.

I liked the L85 concept, but 3 aircraft at once and putting no autoclave CFRP at altitude?!? Sigh...

Let us also not forget the PC-24 is taking all the scraps of the traditional Learjet market.

Lightsaber
6 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
UA748i
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 11:53 pm

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:21 am

What a sad day this is :(

Learjet has been a fantastic manufacturer. I will greatly miss them.

I remember growing up with FS2002 and FS2004. The Learjet 45 was one if the default aircraft. Was always a personal favorite
 
mga707
Posts: 356
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:33 am

slcguy wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
slcguy wrote:
What is the correct way to pronounce Bombardier? I've heard three ways.
Bombar-deer (similar to the person that drops the bomb in a bomber)
Bombar-dee-ay
Bomb-bar-jay (like in the news report)


It's French. You don't pronounce the last R:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHgF4-S0_y8


Thanks, sounds like Bombar-dee-ay is the right way in the video. Needless to say, I did not do well in my 8th grade French class all those years ago LOL


When I call my old friend Hila Peltier 'Pel-tee-ay' she laughs, as she's always said 'Pel-tee-er'. 'Americanized' French. Ditto on the French class (for me it was 7th Grade). Switched to Spanish in high school. Much easier language, no silent letters.
 
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alberchico
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Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:41 am

I always wondered. Considering the vast sums that were invested into the development of the Lear 85, not to mention the fact that a prototype was already flying, how far did the program have to go before certification was complete ? Is it possible for another company to buy the rights to the program and resurrect it or is the design obsolete at this point ?
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7571
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:54 am

YYZSpotter1991 wrote:
Unfortunately, there's very little left of the company, having sold off the majority of their divisions and product lines, now with Bombardier Rail acquired by Alstom, the CSeries largely acquired by Airbus, the CRJ line acquired by Mitsubishi, and the Challenger business jet division having been sold or will soon be. They don't exactly have many sustainable profit centres left.


The Challenger/Global line hasn’t been sold and possibly won’t be. There’s 3,000 in-production planes to service, delivered 144 planes last year and showed a profit on 5.7 billion dollars of revenue.

In many ways, the CL 300/350 were the last Learjets and very close to Bill’s Learstar that morph’d into the Challenger 600 and then CRJ. The 300 was a Wichita Lear design, the first units were built at the Lear factory and when you fly one, it’s got Lear all over it, right down to the military coolie hat trim switch.
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:55 am

alberchico wrote:
I always wondered. Considering the vast sums that were invested into the development of the Lear 85, not to mention the fact that a prototype was already flying, how far did the program have to go before certification was complete ? Is it possible for another company to buy the rights to the program and resurrect it or is the design obsolete at this point ?


From what I heard from test, a long ways from certification, very long. The carbon fiber construction was very much improved-couldn’t stay in the hot sun, I heard.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:00 am

alberchico wrote:
I always wondered. Considering the vast sums that were invested into the development of the Lear 85, not to mention the fact that a prototype was already flying, how far did the program have to go before certification was complete ? Is it possible for another company to buy the rights to the program and resurrect it or is the design obsolete at this point ?


The problems with that aircraft were deep, not just a matter of resurrecting the aircraft. They attempted to make a single piece monocoque fuselage, an extremely ambitious undertaking which plays a large role in the failure. In order to resurrect it, you'd need a completely new fuselage.

viewtopic.php?t=583199#p8905345

queb wrote:
No, they had major structural problem with the monocoque fuselage (without frames and stringers). During the production of the first two planes, they realized that the fuselage was not stiff enough, so they decided to add frames and stringers like a traditional fuselage. Result: too heavy aircraft, interior dimensions way too small (even for a Learjet), impossible to meet customers requirements (range, timeline, etc), cracks all around after first flights. Some pilots refused to fly again after their first flight. And that's only what I know, I let you imagine what I don't know.

In addition, both prototypes are not certifiable, it was a just a circus.
 
Strato2
Posts: 605
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:21 am

Sad for the workers but the whole business jet concept should be mostly banned anyway on environmental grounds. Ambulance flights and other official usage should be allowed but for the rich it should be illegal to travel on a jet that burns obscene amounts of JET-A1 per person transported.
 
Noshow
Posts: 2402
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:37 am

Without wanting to sound brutal but it feels like Embraer won. Both with business jets and with regional jets.
How could they built that CFRP factory at high altitude that just could not work for CFRP fabrication up there?
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3715
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:46 am

Noshow wrote:
Without wanting to sound brutal but it feels like Embraer won. Both with business jets and with regional jets.
How could they built that CFRP factory at high altitude that just could not work for CFRP fabrication up there?

It's Bombardier. They made tons of bad business decisions which have all come and bit them in the rear.

Mexico is just a fairly sore spot for Bombardier because they tried to outsource a lot of work there, and there's been numerous issues related to the work done by their Mexican facilities for their various divisions, with little to no oversight and quality control efforts from the head office.
 
Sokes
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Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:58 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The Challenger/Global line hasn’t been sold and possibly won’t be. There’s 3,000 in-production planes to service, delivered 144 planes last year and showed a profit on 5.7 billion dollars of revenue.

They only had 912 million $ positive EBIT because they sold part of their business for 1,1 billion $. Since they are still ramping up on the Global it would be a bit much to expect positive EBIT, leave alone profit.
But then they had one billion $ financing expense and 400 million $ loss from discontinued operations.
Net loss was 568 million $.
Details on p. 18 of their yearly report.

I don't understand their report. For example I wonder what the 10,4 billion $ assets for sale are supposed to mean? One year back assets for sale was only 1,3 billion $. (p. 106)
Maybe an employee can explain where these 9 billion $ suddenly come from.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7571
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:31 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Sad for the workers but the whole business jet concept should be mostly banned anyway on environmental grounds. Ambulance flights and other official usage should be allowed but for the rich it should be illegal to travel on a jet that burns obscene amounts of JET-A1 per person transported.


Tell that to John Kerry, Bill Gates and the owners of the other 14,000 business jets in operation.

Kerry said flying his jet, “was the only choice for someone like me”.
 
mga707
Posts: 356
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:41 pm

I have not read anything (yet) locally about this decision affecting their facility here at TUS.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7571
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:06 pm

mga707 wrote:
I have not read anything (yet) locally about this decision affecting their facility here at TUS.


It’ll stay open as it has been—service and completion center.
 
mga707
Posts: 356
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am

Re: Official: End of the line for Learjet

Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:24 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
mga707 wrote:
I have not read anything (yet) locally about this decision affecting their facility here at TUS.


It’ll stay open as it has been—service and completion center.


Thanks. That's good for the employees and local economy.

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