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VV
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:34 am

lightsaber wrote:
Bradlee102896 wrote:
I wonder what the outlook of the A220 is if let’s say Breeze Airways ends up not being successful and very few deliveries are made, would that be a huge setback for the program?

That is why multiple medium sized purchases are required.

The 717 had AirTran, where the planes went to SouthWest then Delta. Due to lack of sales, Delta retiring the type as the only mid size customer is ruining the support economics.

The mid size customers (50+ orders) for the A220:
Delta 95
Breeze 80
JetBlue 70
AirFrance 60
AirBaltic 50

Plus AirCanada fell out of mid-size, but is still significant. ALC placed 15 of 50 per prior.

Huge setback? No. Bad? Yes.

But thanks to leasing companies placing as well as Egyptair and KE, a pretty good spot actually if a couple are lost.

There seems to be some potential momentum. I'm very curious to know how the ALC call goes. No expectation.

Lightsaber
Ps, obviously a large order would be better. Multiple large orders better still. We are where we are. We have enough orders for the current announced production ramp.


AiBaltic received its first CS300 in 2016 or about five years ago. As of end of June 2021, the airline has 27 of CS300 (now A220-300).
In the above list given by lightsaber you can read that AirBaltic has a total 60 orders for A220-300.

The delivery schedule is quite slow. Should we expect an increased delivery pace to AirBaltic or has the delivery somehow stalled?
 
VV
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:07 am

This comment might be a little bit of topic, but it still concerns the A220.

While looking for information of the first delivery of CS300 to AirBaltic, one article issued in 2016 already mentioned the CS500.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/bombard ... -1.3180065

Although one can easily think there would be a growth above the CS300 back then, the insistence of such question is just puzzling.
The fact the hypothetical aircraft has been mentioned as early as in 2016 or five years means that someone said to potential customer that Bombardier already started to think about the aircraft.

Everyone is asking the question as whether this version would ever happen.

According to the Airport Planning Manual of the A220 mentioned in one comment above there is already an option for the dual over wing emergency exit doors that would allow a capacity up to 160 for the A220-300.
It is then easy to deduce that a "simple" stretch of the A220-300 by trading range versus capacity is straight forward.
The advertised maximum range of the A220-300 is 3,400 nautical miles. This is a very long range for an aircraft with 145 seats capacity.

A "simple" stretch to about 162 seats, keeping the same engines would result in a maximum range of about 2,400 nautical miles. This maximum range is more than enough to serve a vast majority of routes in Europe, if not all of them.

For sure, European airlines would be very-very interested by the simple stretch of the A220-300.

A lot of discussion has happened on this topic, but considering the fact even in 2016 people already talked about the stretch of the CS300 confirms something was already brewing back then.

It is important to read again the following article issued in March 2013.
https://www.flightglobal.com/bombardier ... 13.article

Quote
Bombardier has officially launched a high-density 160-seat variant of its in-development CSeries CS300.

The airframer says the higher-capacity aircraft requires the addition of a second pair of over-wing exit doors and will be available as both a line-fit and retrofit option.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:18 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Bomdardier turned a $7 Billion investment into $1.3 Billion, and Airbus is losing money on every one it delivers on a variable cost basis now five years after first delivery.


So, Airbus can absorb 5.7 Million in losses/unit on the first 1000 Units or 11.4 Million/unit on the first 500 Units before they get to the point where the A220 starts to cost more than making their own clean sheet design and manage to sell those without a loss from serial number 1.

best regards
Thomas
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:01 am

VV wrote:
This comment might be a little bit of topic, but it still concerns the A220.

While looking for information of the first delivery of CS300 to AirBaltic, one article issued in 2016 already mentioned the CS500.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/bombard ... -1.3180065

Although one can easily think there would be a growth above the CS300 back then, the insistence of such question is just puzzling.
The fact the hypothetical aircraft has been mentioned as early as in 2016 or five years means that someone said to potential customer that Bombardier already started to think about the aircraft.

Everyone is asking the question as whether this version would ever happen.

According to the Airport Planning Manual of the A220 mentioned in one comment above there is already an option for the dual over wing emergency exit doors that would allow a capacity up to 160 for the A220-300.
It is then easy to deduce that a "simple" stretch of the A220-300 by trading range versus capacity is straight forward.
The advertised maximum range of the A220-300 is 3,400 nautical miles. This is a very long range for an aircraft with 145 seats capacity.

A "simple" stretch to about 162 seats, keeping the same engines would result in a maximum range of about 2,400 nautical miles. This maximum range is more than enough to serve a vast majority of routes in Europe, if not all of them.

For sure, European airlines would be very-very interested by the simple stretch of the A220-300.

A lot of discussion has happened on this topic, but considering the fact even in 2016 people already talked about the stretch of the CS300 confirms something was already brewing back then.

It is important to read again the following article issued in March 2013.
https://www.flightglobal.com/bombardier ... 13.article

Quote
Bombardier has officially launched a high-density 160-seat variant of its in-development CSeries CS300.

The airframer says the higher-capacity aircraft requires the addition of a second pair of over-wing exit doors and will be available as both a line-fit and retrofit option.

Bombardier themselves stated that theCS300 was the base model, and the CS100 was the shrink. I don’t have the interview handy where someone from BBD said that, but I know I’ve posted the link before. In any case, with the CS300 as the base model, it essentially implies that a CS500 was a preconceived notion .

Somewhere way back in a tech-ops thread, I also remember much discussion about a wing which was clearly deigned for more capability than required by either the -100 or the -300.
 
VV
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:32 pm

aerolimani wrote:
....
Bombardier themselves stated that theCS300 was the base model, and the CS100 was the shrink. I don’t have the interview handy where someone from BBD said that, but I know I’ve posted the link before. In any case, with the CS300 as the base model, it essentially implies that a CS500 was a preconceived notion .

Somewhere way back in a tech-ops thread, I also remember much discussion about a wing which was clearly deigned for more capability than required by either the -100 or the -300.


I was there I do not remember having heard the highlighted part above.

If you look into it carefully, a 140-ish aircraft with 3,400 nm of range does not make much sense.

An 160-ish aircraft with a range of 2,500 nm makes much more sense.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:47 pm

VV wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
....
Bombardier themselves stated that theCS300 was the base model, and the CS100 was the shrink. I don’t have the interview handy where someone from BBD said that, but I know I’ve posted the link before. In any case, with the CS300 as the base model, it essentially implies that a CS500 was a preconceived notion .

Somewhere way back in a tech-ops thread, I also remember much discussion about a wing which was clearly deigned for more capability than required by either the -100 or the -300.


I was there I do not remember having heard the highlighted part above.

If you look into it carefully, a 140-ish aircraft with 3,400 nm of range does not make much sense.

An 160-ish aircraft with a range of 2,500 nm makes much more sense.


I've read the same quote that aerolimani mentions, that the CS300 was the base model and the CS100 is a shrink. I've also read that the CS500 already exists in various CAD software at Bombardier.

Maybe one of the reasons they haven't sold any A220-300 160 seat variants is that they'd rather sell a larger A220-500 version when the time comes.
 
jalarner
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:03 pm

The Bombardier Youtube channel still has all the C-Series content. I could swear there was a video about the second set of over wing exits but I can't easily find it.

Behind a paywall....can someone review this? https://www.flightglobal.com/bombardier-launches-high-density-cs300-with-air-baltic/109013.article Yup...March 2013
 
Jipy
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:42 pm

See article below Rob Dewar citing delays to the CS300 launch were due to the addition of an oweed , but it was never necessary since certification was achieved with 1 door . To this day the Option for double oweed doors is integrated to the airframe , if option is selected they do a cut-out . No one has taken it yet .

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ty-cseries
 
basspaul
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:18 pm

JetBuddy wrote:

I've read the same quote that aerolimani mentions, that the CS300 was the base model and the CS100 is a shrink. I've also read that the CS500 already exists in various CAD software at Bombardier.

Maybe one of the reasons they haven't sold any A220-300 160 seat variants is that they'd rather sell a larger A220-500 version when the time comes.


I can tell you the 100 was definitely designed before the 300 in terms of actual released engineering. The section of fuselage that is a different length is not a "chopped" 300 to make the 100, nor are there plugs that are omitted for the 100. The 100 and 300 were each optimised in the section that is a different length.

As for the second OWEED, if memory serves right, the magic number was 155 seats for a single OWEED. However the evac tests were also carried out with 160 passengers and a single OWEED. I don't know if transport Canada signed off on a single OWEED for the 160 seat config. And yes, the plan was to be able to cut out an opening and fit the second OWEED should an operator wish to go to 160 seats. The cut-out would have been done during production for customers wanting the 160 seat config at purchase. That being said, these decisions were being made at the time the design team was shrinking and I was let go, so I could be talking out of my rear-end now.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:50 pm

I always thought the CS100 and CS300 were designed in parallel. In that sense, I suppose shrink is not the correct word. Rather, the point would be, in the case of this discussion, that the CS300 is not a stretch. Am I at least correct in that understanding? As such, the idea of a CS500 was never a crazy one, as it would not be a "stretch of a stretch."

As to the idea that the CS300 is the baseline, and the CS100 is a shrink, that seems to have been perpetuated by Leeham. It is stated by them in several articles they published over the years. I can't find anything now, as to anyone from BBD having made such a statement.

For example: https://leehamnews.com/2017/09/19/cseri ... dvertised/

Normally, I consider Leeham News to be quite reliable.
 
FLYBY72
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:20 pm

Fact remains, the 500 will never happen unless the 220 starts selling and can be sold without losing money. Neither has happened. 30 Orders last year, 18 half way through this year. The graph is not looking good. For this aircraft to be truly successful the Airlines need scope relief to fly these at the regionals. This is not going to happen.
 
9252fly
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:38 pm

Once Airbus gets a handle on production costs, I think they will launch the A225. It would not surprise me if it explains why they have not been aggressive in pitching the current lineup; got to squeeze those suppliers and improve the efficiency of the assembly process first. I could see the A225 coincide with an A320+ and A322, it's all years away, so lots of time to speculate.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:43 pm

FLYBY72 wrote:
Fact remains, the 500 will never happen unless the 220 starts selling and can be sold without losing money. Neither has happened. 30 Orders last year, 18 half way through this year. The graph is not looking good. For this aircraft to be truly successful the Airlines need scope relief to fly these at the regionals. This is not going to happen.


Are you really going to use the pandemic years as a baseline? If that's the case, every aircraft isn't looking good.
 
FLYBY72
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:51 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
FLYBY72 wrote:
Fact remains, the 500 will never happen unless the 220 starts selling and can be sold without losing money. Neither has happened. 30 Orders last year, 18 half way through this year. The graph is not looking good. For this aircraft to be truly successful the Airlines need scope relief to fly these at the regionals. This is not going to happen.


Are you really going to use the pandemic years as a baseline? If that's the case, every aircraft isn't looking good.


Airlines are buying airplanes, just not the 220.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:56 am

FLYBY72 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
FLYBY72 wrote:
Fact remains, the 500 will never happen unless the 220 starts selling and can be sold without losing money. Neither has happened. 30 Orders last year, 18 half way through this year. The graph is not looking good. For this aircraft to be truly successful the Airlines need scope relief to fly these at the regionals. This is not going to happen.


Are you really going to use the pandemic years as a baseline? If that's the case, every aircraft isn't looking good.


Airlines are buying airplanes, just not the 220.


Not in 2020 and this year isn't over. In 2020, there were 64 gross A220 orders split between 58 A223 and 6 A221 (again, we are talking orders because that is the metric you decided to use). 47 A319neo, 97 A320neo and 152 A321neo. So for Airbus narrowbodies, the A220 held its own, particularly the A223. There were 2 A330s and 21 A350s, so both of those MUST have no future. The 777 and 787 must have no future at Boeing and the E2 must be dead in the water. Sure we can debate the long-term future of the A330neo and the 777X, but the fact remains the A220 in 2020 did not do terribly in, again, a year with a pandemic.
 
FLYBY72
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:30 am

The A220 needs more customers and many of the customers have already spoken. No A220. WN, NO. United, NO. American, NO. Alaska, NO. Frontier. NO. Lots of Noes for an aircraft that needs to eventually get somewhere.... like being profitable.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:40 am

FLYBY72 wrote:
The A220 needs more customers and many of the customers have already spoken. No A220. WN, NO. United, NO. American, NO. Alaska, NO. Frontier. NO. Lots of Noes for an aircraft that needs to eventually get somewhere.... like being profitable.


Lol 2/5 are single fleet operators and another is moving to single fleet. So this was a terrible basis and if the standard is whether AA and UA have ordered…come on.
 
AaronPMI
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:29 am

FLYBY72 wrote:
The A220 needs more customers and many of the customers have already spoken. No A220. WN, NO. United, NO. American, NO. Alaska, NO. Frontier. NO. Lots of Noes for an aircraft that needs to eventually get somewhere.... like being profitable.


There is a world outside of the USA. One can twist any figures to fit their narrative.
 
nicode
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:30 am

FLYBY72 wrote:
The A220 needs more customers and many of the customers have already spoken. No A220. WN, NO. United, NO. American, NO. Alaska, NO. Frontier. NO. Lots of Noes for an aircraft that needs to eventually get somewhere.... like being profitable.

USA is not the center of the universe.
And where is DL on your list ?
 
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flee
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:49 am

nicode wrote:
FLYBY72 wrote:
The A220 needs more customers and many of the customers have already spoken. No A220. WN, NO. United, NO. American, NO. Alaska, NO. Frontier. NO. Lots of Noes for an aircraft that needs to eventually get somewhere.... like being profitable.

USA is not the center of the universe.
And where is DL on your list ?

I think Airbus must not make the mistake of making the A220 appeal only to US airlines. That will repeat the B757 mistake - while it was very good for the US airlines, it did not sell that well in the rest of the world.
 
VV
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:56 am

It is possible that Airbus now expects all coming deals to be profitable.

Airbus Canada has to finance itself starting in February 2020. It was said many times that Airbus Canada is still losing money until 2026 or so. This was said by one Airbus exec.
Obviously it is not reasonable to continue delivering aircraft at loss.

There was a question asked in one comment above as whether the fact Airbus may require coming deals to be profitable constitutes a hurdle for selling more A220.
 
VV
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:00 am

jalarner wrote:
The Bombardier Youtube channel still has all the C-Series content. I could swear there was a video about the second set of over wing exits but I can't easily find it.

Behind a paywall....can someone review this? https://www.flightglobal.com/bombardier-launches-high-density-cs300-with-air-baltic/109013.article Yup...March 2013


Yes, the article was already mentioned in my comment #301 above (click here).

The FlightGlobal article was published in March 2013. Here below is a quote of the article.

Bombardier has officially launched a high-density 160-seat variant of its in-development CSeries CS300.

The airframer says the higher-capacity aircraft requires the addition of a second pair of over-wing exit doors and will be available as both a line-fit and retrofit option.

https://www.flightglobal.com/bombardier ... 13.article
 
JonesNL
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:18 pm

VV wrote:
It is possible that Airbus now expects all coming deals to be profitable.

Airbus Canada has to finance itself starting in February 2020. It was said many times that Airbus Canada is still losing money until 2026 or so. This was said by one Airbus exec.
Obviously it is not reasonable to continue delivering aircraft at loss.

There was a question asked in one comment above as whether the fact Airbus may require coming deals to be profitable constitutes a hurdle for selling more A220.


I agree, but they had also 1 billion dollar reserve to burn through. I thought the expected profitability was after or just before the 1 billion dollar was finished...
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:50 pm

JonesNL wrote:
VV wrote:
It is possible that Airbus now expects all coming deals to be profitable.

Airbus Canada has to finance itself starting in February 2020. It was said many times that Airbus Canada is still losing money until 2026 or so. This was said by one Airbus exec.
Obviously it is not reasonable to continue delivering aircraft at loss.

There was a question asked in one comment above as whether the fact Airbus may require coming deals to be profitable constitutes a hurdle for selling more A220.


I agree, but they had also 1 billion dollar reserve to burn through. I thought the expected profitability was after or just before the 1 billion dollar was finished...

Airbus put a supply chain manager in charge of the A220 for a reason:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1460695

I believe future sales will be at a future profit. That said, there are enough options to be exercised that volume will go up helping that profit goal. e.g., I posted upthread Spirit needs a volume of 100+ to be profitable. Airbus cannot negotiate that contract until they provide the volume.

We've seen Airbus make deals, so I am not understanding this sunk cost obsession. That is the past.

We already have links in the thread about Airbus going to rate 6 per month with plans mid decade to rate 14.

We have a debate on will that happen. I believe so. It is my opinion that the pandemic gave Pratt and Airbus (I was deliberate in the order) to debug the A220 enough for more sales The issue today, in my opinion (see lease/values thread for examples, I posted links in this thread before) will compete. e.g., between the A220 and more cheap used 739, DL might go for 739s. But I do not think all there options will go unused.

We are at a tough sales time. It will be tough until the used narrowbody market is put back into service. I speculate that will take 3 more years. So between now and then, Airbus will persue more otders. ALV has been incredibly successful placing aircraft. It is just a matter of terms. If Airbus won't budge, then they miss out on short term opportunities and wait for options. If Airbus does negotiate, then ALC places A220s at small airlines and if we look at past history, there is a chance one of those "seed airlines" will mature into a mud-size order.

Airbus will persue orders, the debate is what profit margin and thus what pricing. I will ignore small airlines as the A220 leasing market seems to be surprisingly healthy at this time judging by the placements. I expect leasing companies to exercise options in coming years to continue to expand the A220 operators.

We already know SAS, Truejet, and Green Africa are negotiating mid size orders. Yet most mid-size A220 orders have been a surprise (AirBaltic, Breeze, AirFrance). I expect AC to exercise options once out of their current financial situation as well as JetBlue, AirFrance, AirBaltic, Delta, and the leasing companies. I look forward to a pleasant surprise mid-size order (50+ A220) in the next 18 months.

Lightsaber
 
VV
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:54 pm

lightsaber wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
VV wrote:
It is possible that Airbus now expects all coming deals to be profitable.

Airbus Canada has to finance itself starting in February 2020. It was said many times that Airbus Canada is still losing money until 2026 or so. This was said by one Airbus exec.
Obviously it is not reasonable to continue delivering aircraft at loss.

There was a question asked in one comment above as whether the fact Airbus may require coming deals to be profitable constitutes a hurdle for selling more A220.


I agree, but they had also 1 billion dollar reserve to burn through. I thought the expected profitability was after or just before the 1 billion dollar was finished...

Airbus put a supply chain manager in charge of the A220 for a reason:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1460695
...


Perhaps the real reason is NOT what you think.
Time to time big companies need to move people out of the head quarter because they are not very well appreciated. I am not saying that it is the case with the "supply chain manager" that you mentioned, but who knows?
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:56 pm

Russia's Azimuth orders 6 A220-300
https://money.usnews.com/investing/news ... 0-300-jets

The airline will lease the aircrafts from ALC - so it might not be an actual new order.
 
9252fly
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:30 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Russia's Azimuth orders 6 A220-300
https://money.usnews.com/investing/news ... 0-300-jets

The airline will lease the aircrafts from ALC - so it might not be an actual new order.


Anyone know if the A220 has officially received its Russian type certification? An online search refers to articles suggesting type certification was to occur towards the end of 2019.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:50 pm

9252fly wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Russia's Azimuth orders 6 A220-300
https://money.usnews.com/investing/news ... 0-300-jets

The airline will lease the aircrafts from ALC - so it might not be an actual new order.


Anyone know if the A220 has officially received its Russian type certification? An online search refers to articles suggesting type certification was to occur towards the end of 2019.


I can't find any better information either, but given that Azimuth Airlines will receive their first A220 in the middle of next year, the certification must be completed by then at the latest.
https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/azimuth-set-to-become-first-a220-operator-in-russia/144702.article

Congratulations to everyone involved and every new operator is very welcome !
ALC placed 15 A220s and now we know the top six. The question that remains is where are the other nine going? Neil any idea?
 
yyztpa2
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:47 pm

oldJoe wrote:
9252fly wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Russia's Azimuth orders 6 A220-300
https://money.usnews.com/investing/news ... 0-300-jets

The airline will lease the aircrafts from ALC - so it might not be an actual new order.


Anyone know if the A220 has officially received its Russian type certification? An online search refers to articles suggesting type certification was to occur towards the end of 2019.


I can't find any better information either, but given that Azimuth Airlines will receive their first A220 in the middle of next year, the certification must be completed by then at the latest.
https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/azimuth-set-to-become-first-a220-operator-in-russia/144702.article

Congratulations to everyone involved and every new operator is very welcome !
ALC placed 15 A220s and now we know the top six. The question that remains is where are the other nine going? Neil any idea?

News stories are indicating the lease was signed this week at the MAKS2021 Air Show. Perhaps these 6 are in addition to the 15 ALC already suggested as placed.

Other sources are suggesting Azimuth also signed for 3 A220-300 on June 4th from the Ilyushin Finance order.
 
Babyshark
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:03 am

SteelChair wrote:
Babyshark wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

I believe there is high possibility that one big airline already did just that for their 100 AND 300 negotiation. The big airline in Atlanta. No, I have no proof, just a hunch.


Doubt it.


Well, let's do some detective work: How many A320neos has the airline in question ordered?

What will fill that gap between the 223 and 321N? They've already tipped their hand with the order book. Sorry it will pay less, but they're famous for capacity discipline.

Why do so many refuse to see that the GTF made the A320 series a very different series of airplanes? The 319N is way unbalanced/suboptimal and even the A320N is suboptimal. The big GTF fits the 321N just right, so much so that the LR and XLR are now serious players. And the small GTF fits the 223 and 225 just right.

What would be interesting would be to see the 320 fit with the small GTF, weight taken out of the airframe, and the airplane optimized for less than 1000nm routes. But that hasn't even been speculated. Except by me, just now. It's much easier just to do the 225.


The number of orders for 320N and 321N are nearly the same at 3800 and 3500 orders, note the 320 has more.

I don’t think suboptimal is the word I would choose for a 320N. The 320 “system” is still the cornerstone of Airbus. I am training on the 350, it’s still very 320.

The 220 on the other hand is a hot mess. Doing anything with that design is not easy. Saying Airbus will drop everything they ever believed in and replace it with a foreign flop is silly and naive.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:32 pm

Azimuth airlines has ordered 6 A220:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-07-21/

Deliveries will start next year, Airbus said, and the Azimuth will become the first Russian buyer of the narrow-body A220 aircraft.

Good news. I expected that if this airline ordered, it would be taking existing leased aircraft. This appears to be direct from Airbus.

Lightsaber
 
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Polot
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:57 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Azimuth airlines has ordered 6 A220:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-07-21/

Deliveries will start next year, Airbus said, and the Azimuth will become the first Russian buyer of the narrow-body A220 aircraft.

Good news. I expected that if this airline ordered, it would be taking existing leased aircraft. This appears to be direct from Airbus.

Lightsaber

Other sources say they are leasing from ALC: https://airinsight.com/azimuth-order-op ... -the-a220/

It’s unclear if this will be a new ALC top up order or from their existing, although I’m inclined to believe the quick delivery (next year) means it is from their existing order.
 
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:59 pm

Polot wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Azimuth airlines has ordered 6 A220:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-07-21/

Deliveries will start next year, Airbus said, and the Azimuth will become the first Russian buyer of the narrow-body A220 aircraft.

Good news. I expected that if this airline ordered, it would be taking existing leased aircraft. This appears to be direct from Airbus.

Lightsaber

Other sources say they are leasing from ALC: https://airinsight.com/azimuth-order-op ... -the-a220/

It’s unclear if this will be a new ALC top up order or from their existing, although I’m inclined to believe the quick delivery (next year) means it is from their existing order.

That makes more sense to me. So 6 of 15 placed ALC now known. I expect ALC to top off, but only under terms they like.

Lightsaber
 
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:50 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
Airbus will offer the 225 when they are ready, whenever that may be. But we've heard comments over the years from several airlines showing interest in this model. I've personally heard the airline CEO of a big 220 operator state, paraphrased "at some point Airbus is going to want to do an A220-500. And we'll be very interested in that..[and further expounding about the hypothetical improved economics vs the 220-300, and why it'd be a great fit]. So I have no doubt this future model has been discussed thoroughly with customers.

I'm kinda having flashbacks to when MD-95 customers were expecting to get a stretch, then Boeing took over the program and decided protecting the 737 was more important than growing the 717. I know the past isn't prologue, but still there are chances we see a repeat performance.
 
CDGIAD
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:57 pm

Any update/pictures of the first A220 for Air France?
It's due in September theoretically.
 
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:22 am

FLYBY72 wrote:
The A220 needs more customers and many of the customers have already spoken. No A220. WN, NO. United, NO. American, NO. Alaska, NO. Frontier. NO. Lots of Noes for an aircraft that needs to eventually get somewhere.... like being profitable.


The world doesnt evolve around the US..... There is lots of airlines flying the A220.
 
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:43 am

Azimuth has ordered 6 A220-300s directly at the MAKS airshow. Kind of surprising to me, it seems that the local carriers in Russia are lately more or less forced to fly the SSJ and later the MC-21. Azimuth has the SSJ already. But probably they could convince the autorities they need the A220, or they are allowed to fly western aircraft as long as they keep on supporting the SSJ too.
source: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-07-21/
 
oldJoe
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:01 pm

CDGIAD wrote:
Any update/pictures of the first A220 for Air France?
It's due in September theoretically.


hope the link satisfy you :lol:

https://corporate.airfrance.com/en/news/air-france-prepares-arrival-airbus-a220
 
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:39 pm

oldJoe wrote:
CDGIAD wrote:
Any update/pictures of the first A220 for Air France?
It's due in September theoretically.


hope the link satisfy you :lol:

https://corporate.airfrance.com/en/news/air-france-prepares-arrival-airbus-a220

Thank you for the link, it is both timely and satisfying! :D
 
CDGIAD
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:42 pm

oldJoe wrote:
CDGIAD wrote:
Any update/pictures of the first A220 for Air France?
It's due in September theoretically.


hope the link satisfy you :lol:

https://corporate.airfrance.com/en/news/air-france-prepares-arrival-airbus-a220


It does!
Saw it on Twitter just today.
 
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:13 pm

I’ve yet to see a livery that doesn’t look great on the a220.

AF making their livery a little more swoop-y has ended up looking great on modern aircraft with the curvier designs
 
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:51 pm

Does anyone have any idea what the current state of affairs is with Air Burkina and the A220? If the first aircraft is to be delivered in July next year, something should be heard soon ?
reminder link in German :
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/air-burkina-moechte-airbus-a220

Which is also interesting what the CEO of Volotea said in March.
source in German :
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/volotea-wirft-schuechternen-blick-auf-den-airbus-a220

from the article :
Airbus is obviously a very strong partner and now they own the [A220 program]. So that's definitely up for debate

and
But that is a long-term consideration, according to Munoz. The A220 is the ideal size for Volotea


Time will tell :spin:
 
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Re: Airbus A220 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:37 pm

ITA (the new Alitalia) is considering a dozen A220-300 along with about forty Airbus A320neo, five A321neo and 23 A330neo / A350 for re-fleeting exercise.

https://www.corriere.it/economia/aziend ... 6464.shtml
 
fcogafa
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:18 pm

Looks like a copy of the simleflying article, or vice-versa

https://simpleflying.com/alitalia-repla ... t-options/
 
DUSZRH
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:19 pm

fcogafa wrote:
Looks like a copy of the simleflying article, or vice-versa

https://simpleflying.com/alitalia-repla ... t-options/


Obviously, it’s simple flying copying/translating.
 
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:30 pm

So to summarize, the campaigns believed to be ongoing:
1. SAS
2. Green Africa
3. TrueJet
4. ALC (Any other leasing companies going back for seconds?)
5. ITA (ex-Alitalia)

Realized sales campaigns:
1. Azimuth (6)

Speculation on possible future sales campaigns:
1. Volotea (personally, a great match airline to aircraft, but nothing substantial to base it upon that I would call substantial)

Much better than earlier in the year, but still a lot in flux.


The Russian certification happened and AirFrance will "welcome" 148 passengers onboard now that EASA matches transport Canada at 149 passengers:
https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transp ... 76.article

DUSZRH wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
Looks like a copy of the simleflying article, or vice-versa

https://simpleflying.com/alitalia-repla ... t-options/


Obviously, it’s simple flying copying/translating.

Careful with simpleflying, their cookies are... unusually persistent. I agree on the opinion Simpleflying is translating.
Although they are the only link I can find with AirBaltic selling older flight simulators. In other words, no turning back from the A220.

Speaking of AirAustral, they have become a candidate for a higher MTOW/fuel capacity A223 in my opinion. They need a bit more range in my opinion for Dubai, Mubai, and perhaps even Delhi. Quickly going off topic, but do they partner with Ethiopian? It seems needed for connections and with payload restrictions, in my opinion, workable with the A223.

I am of the opinion 3000nm for AirAustral's configuration, but some payload restrictions. I put in 2700nm as that is my opinion on range for an AF/AirBaltic full payload. 3300nm is the least I could conceive, with reserves (probably 3600nm, but I'm being ultra-conservative) for with more fuel/MTOW.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=2700nm%40r ... 00nm%40run

Lightsaber
 
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:56 pm

Rumours, nothing confirmed, seen on Twitter. (African account, Airbus pilot from Africa). Seen while I was looking for "Green Africa", who will start flight operations on 12-Aug-2021 (recently received the AOC).

Ibon air is happy with the A220 performance and will soon order some A220 directly from Airbus.

No link.

We will see.
 
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:53 am

T4thH wrote:
Rumours, nothing confirmed, seen on Twitter. (African account, Airbus pilot from Africa). Seen while I was looking for "Green Africa", who will start flight operations on 12-Aug-2021 (recently received the AOC).

Ibon air is happy with the A220 performance and will soon order some A220 directly from Airbus.

No link.

We will see.

Green Africa has secured AOC, to fly 12 August.
https://tourtelegraph.com/aviation/nige ... -12th/amp/

I cannot confirm the A220 for them, I only know of the the letter of intent.


Lightsaber
 
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:19 am

lightsaber wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Rumours, nothing confirmed, seen on Twitter. (African account, Airbus pilot from Africa). Seen while I was looking for "Green Africa", who will start flight operations on 12-Aug-2021 (recently received the AOC).

Ibom air is happy with the A220 performance and will soon order some A220 directly from Airbus.

No link.

We will see.

Green Africa has secured AOC, to fly 12 August.
https://tourtelegraph.com/aviation/nige ... -12th/amp/

I cannot confirm the A220 for them, I only know of the the letter of intent.
Lightsaber

I know (as I regular follow up and check also "African news sources" regular, including foreign (non English) languages with support of implemented Google translator, that "Green Africa" Airlines has "deferred" the planned A220 order. Green Africa airlines will start with ATRs. I have not saved any links, so sorry.

This was yesterday also stated by the "Airbus pilot from Africa", so he seems to be good informed and only regarding this, I have stated here this "rumor", that "Ibom air is happy with the A220 performance and will soon order some A220 directly from Airbus." It seems he is a reliable/well informed source.
 
JonesNL
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:45 pm

Comment copied from Leeham comment section:

“Airbus Steps Up Marketing Of A220 In China”

“Despite the pandemic and the uncertainty in the aviation industry, European aircraft manufacturer Airbus is stepping up efforts to promote the Airbus A220 in China, arguing it is ideally suited to second and third-tier markets and complements larger aircraft, such as the Airbus A320.

Airbus China held a press conference in Guangzhou where its marketing director Hu Qin told journalists the 110 to 130-seat A220 complements the 180-seat A320 and Boeing 737.

Hu says many second and third-tier markets are in western China where there are fewer rail lines and where the majority of future airports in China will be built.

He also says western China has plenty of tourism potential thanks to its: grasslands, deserts, plateaus and highlands.

“The A220’s market opportunity lies in connecting the second and third-tier markets in western China [to] east China and surrounding markets in the area,” he adds.

Airbus has yet to receive orders in China for the A220.”

http://www.smartaviation-apac.com/2021/ ... -in-china/
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