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Airbus A220 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:09 pm

While the year has been quiet so far, to keep sales discussion out of the production/delivery thread.

Last year's thread
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1438987

"A220 remained in flight" the CEO points out it is a very economical "product," vast majority asked for deferrals, not cancellations. They expected more cancellations:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ovid-sales

Airbus is chasing sales, but I haven't heard anything concrete, other than JetBlue having good delivery rates, which isn't new sales per se:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ovid-sales

We have a non-aviation thread to discuss vaccines. My opinion is travel will start to recover this summer from a very low base. It won't be everyone, but some will start flying in quantity this summer. As the very balanced Airbus CEO interview notes (see bloomberg link above), it isn't just airbus, it isn't just the aircraft manufacturing, it is tourism. For myself, I follow the cruise industry. In my opinion an industry JetBlue, Delta, and eventually Breeze could feed nicely with their A220s (just my opinion) or AirBaltic and Swiss in the EU.
Non-AV thread link on vaccines:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1453993

So who is being talked to? Unfortunately, who will be the counter? I still think IAG, Qantas (probably farmed out to another airline to fly, e.g., Alliance), and airlines within India will be important markets. But not for delivery too soon. (Of course all will bid against the E2 jets, that goes without saying). Who else might seriously order in 2021? (If any, I know, airlines are hurting.) I'm not saying take delivery in 2021, I'm saying to order in 2021. If the rebound is OK (not even great), I could see both a Delta and JetBlue top off. Unfortunately, I just am not thinking of any EU airline that might. Please prove me wrong! This is an area I would like to be corrected.

I personally think the A220 would be a great island hopper, but I'm not seeing Cebu Pacific order anytime soon, nor ANZ. HA is always discussed, but they are such a tough case due to utilization, it would take trials to prove the airframe and in particular engine that I am not aware of being peformed as of yet. I also don't see HA ordering soon. If they need more, they'll but used DL 717s or Volotea 717s, but eventually they will have to switch (in my opinion, the 717 has lost all maintenance economics of scale with the retirement of so many MD-80s for consumables like window seals, breaks, landing gear overhaul, door slide overhaul, galley parts, windshields, and tires); so HA must order in a few years, I wouldn't order now if I was an executive for them (but just my opinion).

What are the possible sales campaigns?

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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:19 pm

No mention of Southwest ( ref: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1453297 ) ?

One order could increase their backlog by 50%.

I think it could show how serious Airbus is (or is not) about taking what is an interesting (yet money losing) side project into becoming a mainstream product.

When else will another potential order of 300 frames be on the table?
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:37 pm

Revelation wrote:
No mention of Southwest ( ref: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1453297 ) ?

One order could increase their backlog by 50%.

I think it could show how serious Airbus is (or is not) about taking what is an interesting (yet money losing) side project into becoming a mainstream product.

When else will another potential order of 300 frames be on the table?

You are correct, I should have mentioned that one. I am of two minds on that order. However, it is a sales campaign of massive proportions that must be taken seriously.

If it happens, Airbus will have to increase production by 3 to 6 per month for that order. More importantly, it adds another customer known for buying 2nd hand. Every Leasing company will look at Southwests fittings and order that (e.g., galley and watercloset equipment, overhead bins, and possibly even seats).

That would instantly move the A220 into yet another league. The economics of production, maintenance, and support would immediately improve.

I like to point out pilot and crew training options. If Southwest buys, suddenly new first officers could come in with an A220 or 737 certification. That would motivate some flight schools to buy an A220 sim (if even only a fixed while say renting JetBlue's or Delta's FFS for some training...).

You were correct to point that one potential order. 300 more would not only accelerate the line, but simplify financing (more lease companies taking the risk), MRO availability, crew training, and parts economics of scale.

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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:10 pm

I am much much more interested by campaign concerning the A220-100.

THe reason is because I see there are some shaky orders in the backlog. It means Airbus needs to sell many more A220-100 if they want to make sure that version is not discontinued in 2022 or 2023.

So there are two questions.
  1. Are there many A220-100 campaigns?
  2. Is there any plan to stop A220-100 production around end of 2022?
 
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:10 pm

It's a long shot, if WN were to order 300 and asked for the A225, would Airbus build it?
 
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:13 pm

9252fly wrote:
It's a long shot, if WN were to order 300 and asked for the A225, would Airbus build it?


With AF practically throwing the checkbook at Airbus wanting the 225, they'd be stupid not to.
 
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:47 pm

As the A221 is:
1. A subvariant, not much thought or effort to make an A221 vs. A223.
2. The successful launch of the A221 based business jet (6 orders)
3. Largest commercial plane allowed in LCY
4. Odyssey airlines actually going to start up with A221s:
https://www.rustourismnews.com/2021/02/ ... y-airport/

Link on business jet:
https://simpleflying.com/airbus-reveals ... to%20match.

I don't know why anyone is concerned about the A221. If nothing else, it will be used for the next decade to spoil E2-190/295 orders, if nothing else.

If we only focus on that length, I would expect AeroMexico to order some. While I do not think JetBlue or Breeze will order the A221, other posters disagree and... I hope they are correct.

Once well into a recovery, I would be shocked if QR, ET, and TK didn't look into that size. The same with Quantas. I also wonder if WestJet, Southwest, JetBlue, Delta, IAG, and JetBlue wouldn't look into an increased MTOW version for long range flying, in particular out of LCY.

The big question is HA, of course, but that deserves a thread of its own.

Airbus could produce an A221 a decade after the last one is built, as long as the A220 is in production. It might be only one or two business jets per year, but the type will remain available as long as the A220 order book is open.

I would bet more A221 are delivered than the entire current order book. I don't think anyone expects huge volumes of the A221 to be produced, but there are more future potential buyers out there than current buyers.

777Mech wrote:
9252fly wrote:
It's a long shot, if WN were to order 300 and asked for the A225, would Airbus build it?


With AF practically throwing the checkbook at Airbus wanting the 225, they'd be stupid not to.

Agreed, if WN is interested, but only if WN was interested, I would expect an A225 launch.

If WN orders the A223, that changes everything. We have another thread for detailed discussion.

Thanks to advanced subsystems, the weight savings of a CFRP wing, engines optimized for the size (in my opinion, the PW1100G is so optimized for the A321, the A320 suffers and in my opinion the LEAP should have worse turn down fuel burn due to low RPM low spool and fractionally lower bypass ratio). I think the A225 is needed. When?



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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:36 pm

lightsaber wrote:
If it happens, Airbus will have to increase production by 3 to 6 per month for that order. More importantly, it adds another customer known for buying 2nd hand. Every Leasing company will look at Southwests fittings and order that (e.g., galley and watercloset equipment, overhead bins, and possibly even seats).

That would instantly move the A220 into yet another league. The economics of production, maintenance, and support would immediately improve.

I like to point out pilot and crew training options. If Southwest buys, suddenly new first officers could come in with an A220 or 737 certification. That would motivate some flight schools to buy an A220 sim (if even only a fixed while say renting JetBlue's or Delta's FFS for some training...).

You were correct to point that one potential order. 300 more would not only accelerate the line, but simplify financing (more lease companies taking the risk), MRO availability, crew training, and parts economics of scale.

My first thought was about production. An order this large, along with the future orders it fore-shadows, would in turn accelerate things like weight reduction and engine PIPs. Yet of course all these other effects will be significant too.

WN very well may be negotiating via the media, but IMO both B and A need to take this situation very seriously. We don't see orders this big in this segment of the market very often. I still think it's B''s deal to lose (and in turn CFMI's deal to lose), but IMO this could be looked back upon as a turning point in the industry should A take this business away from B.
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:00 pm

There's literally only one market which presently works, sort of, and that's the Chinese domestic one. If any orders are coming in 2021, there's your most likely source.

I've no idea which Chinese carriers, if any, might benefit from taking the A220. In the end the aircraft may prove to be either too small, or political pressure might mean any potential candidate looking at something of that size would be nudged towards ordering a vastly inferior, but domestically produced, alternative.

SW will, in my opinion, continue to fly the 737 Max until they're ready for the boneyard, which puts their potential horizon out to something like 2035-2050. By this time Boeing will certainly have come up with a blank sheet 737 replacement, and that's what I expect them to order. I would be extremely surprised if they're "interest" in the A220 is anything but a ploy to secure a better deal for a large number of Max's. Statistically speaking I'll be dead by then but, on the bright side, there's somewhere between zero and naught change of me ever stepping aboard a LUV jet, so that's all good.
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:13 am

lightsaber wrote:
If the rebound is OK (not even great), I could see both a Delta and JetBlue top off.


Maybe, but AC cancelled a bunch, and DL pushed out 19 more 223s to beyond 2022 (making of 33 of 50 due beyond 2022). Whether it's a (largely self-imposed) CAPEX constraint or that they don't see the immediate need in the fashion they expect the network and demand evolve, it doesn't suggest to me that DL is in a hurry to order more.
 
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:30 am

Revelation wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
If it happens, Airbus will have to increase production by 3 to 6 per month for that order. More importantly, it adds another customer known for buying 2nd hand. Every Leasing company will look at Southwests fittings and order that (e.g., galley and watercloset equipment, overhead bins, and possibly even seats).

That would instantly move the A220 into yet another league. The economics of production, maintenance, and support would immediately improve.

I like to point out pilot and crew training options. If Southwest buys, suddenly new first officers could come in with an A220 or 737 certification. That would motivate some flight schools to buy an A220 sim (if even only a fixed while say renting JetBlue's or Delta's FFS for some training...).

You were correct to point that one potential order. 300 more would not only accelerate the line, but simplify financing (more lease companies taking the risk), MRO availability, crew training, and parts economics of scale.

My first thought was about production. An order this large, along with the future orders it fore-shadows, would in turn accelerate things like weight reduction and engine PIPs. Yet of course all these other effects will be significant too.

WN very well may be negotiating via the media, but IMO both B and A need to take this situation very seriously. We don't see orders this big in this segment of the market very often. I still think it's B''s deal to lose (and in turn CFMI's deal to lose), but IMO this could be looked back upon as a turning point in the industry should A take this business away from B.

This order must be considered and taken seriously. Interesting times.

MIflyer12 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
If the rebound is OK (not even great), I could see both a Delta and JetBlue top off.


Maybe, but AC cancelled a bunch, and DL pushed out 19 more 223s to beyond 2022 (making of 33 of 50 due beyond 2022). Whether it's a (largely self-imposed) CAPEX constraint or that they don't see the immediate need in the fashion they expect the network and demand evolve, it doesn't suggest to me that DL is in a hurry to order more.


I wasn't clear on my time frame. I think both DL and B6 will top off, but not for deliveries in 2021. Both are number run companies and will be able to look out to 2023 and later. There is, of course, no immediate need. I didn't mean to imply that and I realize my wording was poor. DL is very disciplined on CAPEX. They had to differ. That doesn't negate that if the summer improves, they wouldn't order late in the year.

AC is in a pickle. There reduction is not a surprise. What is a surprise is so few cancelled the A220.

JetBlue has accelerated A220 deliveries while differing A321s... :scratchchin:

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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:56 am

Israir Airlines have expressed interest in changing over to the A220, replacing their A320s and ATRs. New of this has been picked up by Ch.aviation (behind paywall)and simpleflying. I gather they got their information from the airlines CEO when he had an interview with a Israeli newspaper. I could also see PG Bangkok Airways move over to the A220-100/300 if they survive the pandemic.
 
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:02 am

The A220 assumes high fuel prices.
Either the cost of building with carbon fiber has to come down or the cost of fuel has to go up. Till then I expect Airbus to continue manufacturing it at low rates.

Should fuel prices go up for political or other reasons Airbus has manufacturing and service in place. It will be able to ramp up comparatively fast. That's worth a continued small loss.

Why would they go in a price war with Boeing? To ruin A320 pricing?
Selling many in advance at low oil prices also isn't advisable. Good if they have short term slots available should fuel cost increase.
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:25 am

A320B737NGCapt wrote:
Israir Airlines have expressed interest in changing over to the A220, replacing their A320s and ATRs. New of this has been picked up by Ch.aviation (behind paywall)and simpleflying. I gather they got their information from the airlines CEO when he had an interview with a Israeli newspaper. I could also see PG Bangkok Airways move over to the A220-100/300 if they survive the pandemic.

I'm glad you phrased as you did. We'll just say both Ch.aviation and SimpleFlying over-predict A220 sales. That said, the A220 has merit. While it is possible those two airlines could be added to the list, I will keep scepticism.

Due to the advanced subsystems, the maintenance reduction should be a nice inducement. Fuel burn the bonus.

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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:23 am

Sokes wrote:
The A220 assumes high fuel prices.
Either the cost of building with carbon fiber has to come down or the cost of fuel has to go up. Till then I expect Airbus to continue manufacturing it at low rates.

Should fuel prices go up for political or other reasons Airbus has manufacturing and service in place. It will be able to ramp up comparatively fast. That's worth a continued small loss.

Why would they go in a price war with Boeing? To ruin A320 pricing?
Selling many in advance at low oil prices also isn't advisable. Good if they have short term slots available should fuel cost increase.


Oil is back up to $60 a barrel. That's a nice balance between the $0 it was at last year, and the $120 it was at a few years ago.
And fuel savers are future-proof; fuel guzzlers are the opposite- delaying pain until an unpredictable future date.
 
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:05 am

lightsaber wrote:
............................I personally think the A220 would be a great island hopper, but I'm not seeing Cebu Pacific order anytime soon, nor ANZ. HA is always discussed, but they are such a tough case due to utilization, it would take trials to prove the airframe and in particular engine that I am not aware of being peformed as of yet. I also don't see HA ordering soon. If they need more, they'll but used DL 717s or Volotea 717s, but eventually they will have to switch (in my opinion, the 717 has lost all maintenance economics of scale with the retirement of so many MD-80s for consumables like window seals, breaks, landing gear overhaul, door slide overhaul, galley parts, windshields, and tires); so HA must order in a few years, I wouldn't order now if I was an executive for them (but just my opinion)............................


I am curious as to your pessimism on the 717 because of maintenance economies of scale. Why has this not affected the old freighter market (MD11, A300, DC10)?
 
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:09 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
If the rebound is OK (not even great), I could see both a Delta and JetBlue top off.


Maybe, but AC cancelled a bunch.


They also want gov't money and what more perfect way to send a message to Ottawa, then to cancel orders for a product made in Quebec?

(Btw - they also cancelled 10 Max's, on which they will get their deposits back. The A220 order, not so much...but methinks it's posturing)
 
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:08 am

AA737-823 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
The A220 assumes high fuel prices.
Either the cost of building with carbon fiber has to come down or the cost of fuel has to go up. Till then I expect Airbus to continue manufacturing it at low rates.

Should fuel prices go up for political or other reasons Airbus has manufacturing and service in place. It will be able to ramp up comparatively fast. That's worth a continued small loss.

Why would they go in a price war with Boeing? To ruin A320 pricing?
Selling many in advance at low oil prices also isn't advisable. Good if they have short term slots available should fuel cost increase.


Oil is back up to $60 a barrel. That's a nice balance between the $0 it was at last year, and the $120 it was at a few years ago.
And fuel savers are future-proof; fuel guzzlers are the opposite- delaying pain until an unpredictable future date.


I think longer term aviation fuel prices will less tightly follow oil because of taxation and/or a synthetic fuel component. This could help the A220 (or any design with higher acquisition cost, but low fuel burn).

Coming back to production rates as touched upon in an earlier thread. Airbus wants to go from 40/month to 43 and then 45 on the A320. The A220 goes from 4 to 5. If we ignore 2020 for a moment and take the years before as an indication. The backlog ratio between the A320 and A220 in 2019 was 7.188 to 630 or a 11.4 to 1 ratio. Looking at the combined sales numbers of 2018 and 2019 we get 1.234 to 228 or a 5.4 to 1 ratio. Working from 45/month for the A320, 11.4 to 1 backlog ratio would result in an equal 4/month for the A220. Using the 2018/2019 sales based ratio you get 8.3/month for the A220.

On top of that we can point out that:
- A higher production rate would help reduce the production cost per seat gap more and thus further improving the ratio for the A220.
- Fleet managers have seen that during corona the A220 was the plane most consistently flying.
- Have seen that the fuel saving is real.
- Relatively more A320 deliveries are deferred than A220 (indicating for which demand it would be wiser to produce right now).
- A delivered A220 adds less seats to the fleet/market than a delivered A320 (that's a bonus for the time being).
- To make any realistic chance for a ground breaking order like a possible WN one and/or to keep more pricing pressure on Boeing, Airbus would have to prove that they would be able to produce the required quantities without hickups or delays.


So as stated before, I reckon Airbus is too conservative with ramping up the A220 rate. Sure an A320 provides more profit per produced aircraft normally. But these are not normal circumstances. I think Airbus would do well to take and remain the A320 at 43 instead of 45 and ramp the A220 to 7/8/months instead.
Last edited by Taxi645 on Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:11 am

Jetport wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
............................I personally think the A220 would be a great island hopper, but I'm not seeing Cebu Pacific order anytime soon, nor ANZ. HA is always discussed, but they are such a tough case due to utilization, it would take trials to prove the airframe and in particular engine that I am not aware of being peformed as of yet. I also don't see HA ordering soon. If they need more, they'll but used DL 717s or Volotea 717s, but eventually they will have to switch (in my opinion, the 717 has lost all maintenance economics of scale with the retirement of so many MD-80s for consumables like window seals, breaks, landing gear overhaul, door slide overhaul, galley parts, windshields, and tires); so HA must order in a few years, I wouldn't order now if I was an executive for them (but just my opinion)............................


I am curious as to your pessimism on the 717 because of maintenance economies of scale. Why has this not affected the old freighter market (MD11, A300, DC10)?

The 717 is losing Delta flying it, MD-80 commonality, and MD-90 commonality all at once. There will only be 39 B717 flying at two airlines post Delta.
https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-b717.htm

How do you produce a batch of 25 parts each year flying only 39 aircraft (minimum economic production rate)? When the fleet was 147, I didn't make such comments. Delta provided the economics of scale. They will use up their parts while using up green time in the fleet.

The 83 DC-10s aren't enough for parts, they'll run in scavaging mode for a few years. That fleet is done. But thanks to all the scrapped planes, they few remaining can fly on (some MD-11 parts commonality too).

The MD-11 has 110 aircraft. Marginal, but better than 39.

https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-md11.htm

The A300 has 209 still flying. Enough to continue parts production at good economics.
https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-a300.htm.

In production aircraft benefit from having a spares market and demand for new. e.g., new production alone supports the vendor network on the A220.

This is why success breeds success. No one worries about procuring a 737 or A320 part, there is so much demand, the parts stay in production. When the quantity of aircraft in service drops below 300, parts prices go up, but it can be managed. For 39 aircraft (post Delta), they two airlines will buy used parts which pushes vendors out of the market.

Think of the doggie warmer valve on the MD-80. When AA ceased buying spares, Delta bought a bunch and the vendor just stopped supporting. Now ever MD-80 flies only on the green time of that valve and once that is used up, the fleet is parked. For the lack of one part can ground a fleet and that is the part to infamously run out on the MD-80.

This is one major reason I am excited about more A220 sales. Every doubling of production cuts costs about 13%. I'm going to be lazy and not find a link, so consider that my opinion. For the A220 to compete, it needs to increase production rates as well as have more out there to support the MRO network.

Economics of scale has also become far more brutal the last 7 or 8 years. This is due to so many vendors consolidating into Moog, Woodward, Meggitt, and Raytheon Technologies. The vendors now have accounting teams looking into all product lines and they'll sell off or cancel lines not making enough profit. .

So the two remaining opperators are in a pickle. Best to consider either the A220, E2-195, or a used A320 or 737.

This is the fate the A220 avoided selling out to Airbus with rapid sales to JetBlue, Breeze, an AirBaltic top off and later AirFrance.

If Southwest buys 300 A220s, it insures decades of needed spares which gives other airlines the confidence to buy the A220.

A long explanation, I hope I made sense of the matter.

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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:07 am

lightsaber wrote:
As the A221 is:
1. A subvariant, not much thought or effort to make an A221 vs. A223.
2. The successful launch of the A221 based business jet (6 orders)
3. Largest commercial plane allowed in LCY
4. Odyssey airlines actually going to start up with A221s:
https://www.rustourismnews.com/2021/02/ ... y-airport/
...


  1. The big difference if the generated income. In general an A220-100 sells about 4.5 to 5.5 million US dollars lower than an A220-300. It is roughly the same effort/cost to built them, but the return is much better on the A220-300. I think Airbus Canada needs to make money because they now have to finance themselves.
  2. SIx orders indeed, but is it just to fill the skyline (production slots)?
  3. And are there enough stands at LCY for it?
  4. Odyssey, that's a long odyssey indeed. I believe it when I see it. The case for a stand-alone airline for transatlantic high-yield travel is not viable in my opinion, but everyone is entitled to dream.
 
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:16 pm

We are way too US focused here. I'm sure there are Chinese and Indian carriers that would purchase A220 in the next couple of years if Airbus can make a compelling sales pitch to them.

By my calculation, a A220-500 has much lower variable cost to fly than A320NEO. It is also longer which would allow a section to be used for lie flat cabin.

If airbus sees A220 as the future, it will need to put the investment in for A220-500 and to work on PiPs for A220. A lower weight A220-100 would open up more market.

Just for the airline I focus on, JetBlue, a lower weight A220-100 would make a lot of sense. There are 130 A320 that need to be replaced and 140 seat isn't enough capacity to replace all of them. If Airbus can introduce A220-500 by 2025, I see JetBlue not only exercise the 50 remaining option on A220 but add more. An eventual fleet of 20 A220-100, 90 A220-300 and 100 A220-500 makes a lot of sense to me. So, I see 140 firm orders from JetBlue spread from 2025 to early 2030s.
 
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:03 pm

tphuang wrote:
...
If airbus sees A220 as the future, it will need to put the investment in for A220-500 and to work on PiPs for A220. A lower weight A220-100 would open up more market.
...


Whose future??

Please look into A320neo supplier list and compare it to A220 supplier list.

Once you understand the subtle differences then you can decide what will happen to the A220 in the long term.
 
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:34 pm

crankypants wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
If the rebound is OK (not even great), I could see both a Delta and JetBlue top off.


Maybe, but AC cancelled a bunch.


They also want gov't money and what more perfect way to send a message to Ottawa, then to cancel orders for a product made in Quebec?

(Btw - they also cancelled 10 Max's, on which they will get their deposits back. The A220 order, not so much...but methinks it's posturing)

The new Minister of Transport specifically linked aerospace industry to any relief package.
https://financialpost.com/transportatio ... outes-jobs
“Before we spend one penny of taxpayer money on airlines, we will ensure that Canadians get their refunds, regional communities retain air connections to the rest of Canada and Canadian air carriers maintain their status as key customers of Canada’s aerospace industry,” Allison St. Jean, a spokesperson for Alghabra, said in an email."

I think this is one reason we still see Air Canada taking delivery in 2021 when they initially inidcated deferral. It's also interesting to notet that the latest Airbus O&D for January still shows Air Canada with an order for 45.
 
a2b7
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:13 pm

tphuang wrote:
We are way too US focused here. I'm sure there are Chinese and Indian carriers that would purchase A220 in the next couple of years if Airbus can make a compelling sales pitch to them.

Indeed there is a huge potential market in China, but the last reports that I have seen said that certification in China was still pending.
 
TC957
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:28 pm

The A220 sales would surely receive a significant boost if Airbus formally launched the -500 version.
Aside from AF & possible WN interest, IB & TP have aging A319/320ceo fleets for which the A225 should be ideal.
Also for the LH airlines group.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:02 pm

AA737-823 wrote:
Oil is back up to $60 a barrel. That's a nice balance between the $0 it was at last year, and the $120 it was at a few years ago.
And fuel savers are future-proof; fuel guzzlers are the opposite- delaying pain until an unpredictable future date.


With an expensive plane you're just pre-paying your fuel bill - and hoping fuel prices don't go down lest you be shown a fool. Yes, fuel efficient aircraft are their own built-in hedges (for maybe the 15% efficiency gain between new and old gen aircraft) but firms can lose $$$ on fuel hedges as it has been shown. Google 'Delta (or Alaska, or Southwest) fuel hedging losses'. Nobody can predict fuel prices with any accuracy over the 25-yr life of an aircraft.

For reasons not adequately explained, Bombardier apparently didn't design and tool this for high-volume, low cost production. Airbus wasn't in a hurry to get to high volume production (14/month by 2025 isn't high volume) and now some major customers are deferring, slowing even that ramp-up. Five narrowbodies a month is a nice hobby, not two production lines.
 
VV
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:37 pm

How motivated is Airbus to sell A220?
 
Jetport
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:36 pm

VV wrote:
How motivated is Airbus to sell A220?


That is the right question, isn't it. How much short to medium term pain is Airbus willing to endure to make the A220 successful? As I stated in the Southwest A220 thread, the opportunity cost for every A220 sale that could have been a A319/20 sale is many millions of dollars of lost cash. Airlines can almost surely buy 737-7's or A319NEO's for millions less than A220's. The 737-7 (and A319/20) cost millions less to make than the A220. This is Airbus' dilemma, do they sell cash flow negative A220's or cash flow positive A319/20's.
 
T4thH
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:44 pm

VV wrote:
How motivated is Airbus to sell A220?

Sorry but have we not answered your question more than once in the last years?
Just for your information, Airbus is not Boeing, so your are asking a question, which will be correct for Boeing but not for Airbus.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And now something totally different.

Sorry, but you all have missed the interesting stories of the year 2021, next to the still ongoing stories of the sales campaign of the year 2020. And the interstring story is not again and again...already 100 times discussed here...Southwest. Please note, there is something else than the USA. If I see all this discussion above, the thread shall better renaimed in "Airbus American A220 sales campaign thread 2021"

The "Green Africa Airlines" story is still alive. Regarding COVID, the start has been deferred (pretty well to understand).
Pilots and crews are already trained or still in training on the A220, the airline is waiting for the AOC and I have seen the statements of Green Africa and the lessor, that 3 A220 are firmed leased. These were three of the 6 A220 parked in Belgium (STLC, originally ordered for Red Wing, but not taken up).
Start is expected for first half of 2021 now. They have a signed MOU of 50, A220-300.
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/nigeria-green-africa-wird-2021-starten In German, use your implemented translator.



New for 2021.
"Air Burkina", according to my information, this will be an order for 4x A220-300. Additional they will (let us call a:) restart with 3x Embraer ERJ145 and 3x Cessna Grand Caravans. I am already following this story since around Oct-2020.
Airline was in ownership of the government of Burkina Farso. has been sold to the American group "African Global Development" and the government now in partnership with them (AGD).
Please note, AGD is reliable and not small, they plan to add 452 million $ into the program. At least the airline shall grow to a size of 12. Recently a Airbus sales team has visited the government of Burkina Faso (on 21-Jan-2021). Start is schedule for latest Jul-2022.
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/burkina-faso-verkauft-air-burkina use your translator or learn German.
https://www.scramble.nl/civil-news/burkina-faso-and-airbus-in-talks-about-an-a220-order
https://centreforaviation.com/news/burkina-faso-government-in-talks-with-airbus-on-acquiring-a220s-for-air-burkina-1048881
https://www.journal-aviation.com/actualites/45721-l-airbus-a220-fera-partie-integrante-du-plan-de-relance-d-air-burkina in French.

Israir: It has a new owner, they plan to order up to 7x A220. It is now in ownweship of BGI Investment (and some other partners). Plan is for an all A220 airline.
https://www.scramble.nl/civil-news/new-israir-owner-plans-all-a220-fleet
https://mentourpilot.com/airbus-a220-israir-eyeing-a-complete-fleet-revamp/

Air Vanuatu: The first is already completed, I have already stated somewhere earlier here, that I fear a little bit, that it will end as white tail. The government has exchanged the CEO; they now are trying to get out of the contract.
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/air-vanuatus-a220-bestellung-wackeltin German.

Regarding "Odyssey"; I have seen a statement up somewhere here in this thread:
This is a DODO.
It was a crowdfunding project, and the small crew will work on this project, till the last Cent is spend and on this second, the whole project will be cancelled. It will never fly.
 
tphuang
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:32 pm

Jetport wrote:
VV wrote:
How motivated is Airbus to sell A220?


That is the right question, isn't it. How much short to medium term pain is Airbus willing to endure to make the A220 successful? As I stated in the Southwest A220 thread, the opportunity cost for every A220 sale that could have been a A319/20 sale is many millions of dollars of lost cash. Airlines can almost surely buy 737-7's or A319NEO's for millions less than A220's. The 737-7 (and A319/20) cost millions less to make than the A220. This is Airbus' dilemma, do they sell cash flow negative A220's or cash flow positive A319/20's.


Airlines don't want MAX7 and A319NEO. A220 is far and away the most efficient aircraft in the 110 to 145 seat range at the moment. It's not particularly close.

Does Airbus want to keep status quo in the A320NEO/MAX8 sized market or do they want to push forward with a more efficient A220-500 program that could be the backbone of their 110 to 170 seat offering for decades to come and keep pushing the A320 operators to a new A322 to battle against what new aircraft Boeing might develop.

You are not going to convert many 737 operators to A320. But you might be able to convert some to a new generation design like A220.
 
crankypants
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:42 pm

yyztpa2 wrote:
crankypants wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Maybe, but AC cancelled a bunch.


I think this is one reason we still see Air Canada taking delivery in 2021 when they initially inidcated deferral. It's also interesting to notet that the latest Airbus O&D for January still shows Air Canada with an order for 45.


Yah - AC has another one flight testing up in Mirabel; 55109. I think they like them too much, to not include them in the fleet.
 
azjubilee
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:55 pm

lightsaber wrote:
HA is always discussed, but they are such a tough case due to utilization, it would take trials to prove the airframe and in particular engine that I am not aware of being performed as of yet. I also don't see HA ordering soon. If they need more, they'll but used DL 717s or Volotea 717s, but eventually they will have to switch (in my opinion, the 717 has lost all maintenance economics of scale with the retirement of so many MD-80s for consumables like window seals, breaks, landing gear overhaul, door slide overhaul, galley parts, windshields, and tires); so HA must order in a few years, I wouldn't order now if I was an executive for them (but just my opinion).


I think you see HAL starting to make their moves now. Q4/2020 call was the first time they've publicly acknowledged a retirement for the 717 "mid decade." Curiously, that's the same "mid decade" we see DL parking them for good. HAL isn't stupid and clearly sees them being the worlds largest operator of 19-717s as problematic. Therefore I expect noise on the 717 replacement starting to get louder soon.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:53 am

azjubilee wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
HA is always discussed, but they are such a tough case due to utilization, it would take trials to prove the airframe and in particular engine that I am not aware of being performed as of yet. I also don't see HA ordering soon. If they need more, they'll but used DL 717s or Volotea 717s, but eventually they will have to switch (in my opinion, the 717 has lost all maintenance economics of scale with the retirement of so many MD-80s for consumables like window seals, breaks, landing gear overhaul, door slide overhaul, galley parts, windshields, and tires); so HA must order in a few years, I wouldn't order now if I was an executive for them (but just my opinion).


I think you see HAL starting to make their moves now. Q4/2020 call was the first time they've publicly acknowledged a retirement for the 717 "mid decade." Curiously, that's the same "mid decade" we see DL parking them for good. HAL isn't stupid and clearly sees them being the worlds largest operator of 19-717s as problematic. Therefore I expect noise on the 717 replacement starting to get louder soon.

I wouldn't have noted if you had not mentioned.

Conference call:
https://edge.media-server.com/mmc/p/jb6d2nus

Transcript:
https://www.fool.com/earnings/call-tran ... -call-tra/

Hunter Keay -- Wolfe Research LLC -- Analyst

Hey, everybody. Thank you very much. Kind of curious about the 71s again -- or talking about that again I realize but does COVID extend to useful lives of those aircraft because of the fewer cycles on them or is it going to be -- does it shorten them because other operators are accelerating the retirement of the aircraft?

Peter Ingram -- President and Chief Executive Officer

Hey, Hunter. It's Peter. I don't know that it's going to have a big difference in how we view it one way or the other. As you know, we're planning on operating that fleet through the middle of the decade. Our view on that has not changed from when we announced that. I think, at the end of 2019 we locked-in that decision. I think -- obviously, we're putting less wear and tear on them right now and fewer cycles. Unfortunately, we'd like to be operating full airplanes at regular frequency. And that does, on the margin, extend the life, but I really don't think that we were butting up against a very hard cycle limit that was constraining us in 2025. I think we are comfortable that we've got the service contracts in place with the key providers to work us through to the middle of the decade, and I'm mindful that the largest operator in the world of this aircraft type is, while they have announced they are retiring it, the retirement is out in that mid-decade period anyway. So I think we're still pretty comfortable with where we sit right there. If we have a change to our expected life of that airplane, we'll let you know. But right now, I think the middle of the decade is where our thinking is.


That definitely implies a retirement "mid-decade". A "very hard cycle limit" might not limit them as much with DL examples available, I just don't know how they would get parts. Would they consider the A220? I believe Airbus and Pratt would have to prove that the plane could do HA operations and I see a need to extend the current limit of validity (which should be possible with the structure, but I do not know by how much).

Lightsaber
5 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
SA280
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:18 am

Due to the low utilization profile, I foresee HA getting pre-owned A320s or even A319s for the intra-island rather than inducting a new family.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:55 am

I wouldn't be shocked if American, Spirit, Frontier, and United aren't kicking some A220 tires. It seems like it would be a good fit for them.

Finally got to fly on one last week. I love that plane. It's so comfortable in comparison to any of the 737 models IMO. I was also impressed with the IFE on the Delta A220.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:24 am

SA280 wrote:
Due to the low utilization profile, I foresee HA getting pre-owned A320s or even A319s for the intra-island rather than inducting a new family.

HA has the highest (in normal years) cycle utilization that I am aware of.

Use the FAA tracker:
https://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/Query.aspx

Using to find frames:
I picked N476HA
On 10 May 2018 62,843 cycles
On 19 October 2019 67,566
or 4,723 cycles in 537 days or 8.795 cycles per day.

No one calls that low utilization.

N490HA on 2/18/2018 44,766 cycles
on 10/14/2019 50,087 cycles

or 8.82 cycles per day.

HA is brutal on aircraft. I think they will buy new. Look at N476HA, that plane built in 2001 is well past A319/A320 limit of Validity (60,000 cycle life). That is why the A220 would have to extend the limit of Validity to appeal to HA.

We had a thread on why the A32x family failed the further extension of limit of Validity (currently 60,000 cycles, 120,000 hours). The consensus was it started cracking on cycles. The thread is worth a look to better understand the A320 family fatigue life. The A32x isn't a long term solution for HA, in my opinion.

viewtopic.php?t=775787

An A220, if Airbus promised to extend limit of Validity would do well if Pratt could accelerate turn time.

Personally, I think Southwest would demand more cycles too. Discussion in this thread for WN:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1453297

In my opinion, the wing is good for far more. I do not know what the A220 body could do, but even 80,000 cycles would be good enough.

Lightsaber
5 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
Babyshark
Posts: 278
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:17 am

Taxi645 wrote:
Sure an A320 provides more profit per produced aircraft normally. But these are not normal circumstances. I think Airbus would do well to take and remain the A320 at 43 instead of 45 and ramp the A220 to 7/8/months instead.


I think it would be wise to just stop at the A320 provides more profit.
 
marcelh
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:24 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
AA737-823 wrote:
Oil is back up to $60 a barrel. That's a nice balance between the $0 it was at last year, and the $120 it was at a few years ago.
And fuel savers are future-proof; fuel guzzlers are the opposite- delaying pain until an unpredictable future date.


With an expensive plane you're just pre-paying your fuel bill - and hoping fuel prices don't go down lest you be shown a fool. Yes, fuel efficient aircraft are their own built-in hedges (for maybe the 15% efficiency gain between new and old gen aircraft) but firms can lose $$$ on fuel hedges as it has been shown. Google 'Delta (or Alaska, or Southwest) fuel hedging losses'. Nobody can predict fuel prices with any accuracy over the 25-yr life of an aircraft.

Don’t think about fuel prices, think about emissions. Less fuel burn means less emissions and a smaller footprint. Look what tax incentives already have done to electric cars.
 
VV
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:39 am

Jetport wrote:
VV wrote:
How motivated is Airbus to sell A220?


That is the right question, isn't it. How much short to medium term pain is Airbus willing to endure to make the A220 successful? As I stated in the Southwest A220 thread, the opportunity cost for every A220 sale that could have been a A319/20 sale is many millions of dollars of lost cash. Airlines can almost surely buy 737-7's or A319NEO's for millions less than A220's. The 737-7 (and A319/20) cost millions less to make than the A220. This is Airbus' dilemma, do they sell cash flow negative A220's or cash flow positive A319/20's.


To be honest, I still do not fully understand how Airbus Canada Limited Partnership is managed.

We know it is a joint-venture between Airbus (an aircraft manufacturer) and Investissement Québec (financial institution) under Québec legal form of Limited Partnership or "Société en Commandite" in French.

The financial institution does not have any competence whatsoever in aircraft development, manufacturing, aircraft sales and marketing. Basically Airbus is the sole partner that does all the operations and hence it is 100% liable for everything that is engaged by Airbus Canada Limited Partnership and it can be demonstrated quite easily in court.

In my opinion, it is not a balanced partnership, but it is what it is.

So, the question about Airbus' motivation to sell a lot of A220 can be raised. Basically the effort to sell A320neo or A220 is the same. You still have to send people out to present stuff and negotiate the contract.
However, the return is not the same.

In addition, I noticed that the content of the A220 is mostly North American (engine, avionics, subassemblies etc.) as opposed to a much higher European content for A320neo (CFM is half French, UK wings, French/German fuselage, other subassemblies could be Spanish, French or German, some of the avionics is Thales).

So what's the point of selling more A220?
Is it to gain access to Canadian or Québec political class? I don't know.

The whole thing is not clear for me.
 
JonesNL
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:40 pm

Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:58 am

lightsaber wrote:
SA280 wrote:
Due to the low utilization profile, I foresee HA getting pre-owned A320s or even A319s for the intra-island rather than inducting a new family.

HA has the highest (in normal years) cycle utilization that I am aware of.

Use the FAA tracker:
https://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/Query.aspx

Using to find frames:
I picked N476HA
On 10 May 2018 62,843 cycles
On 19 October 2019 67,566
or 4,723 cycles in 537 days or 8.795 cycles per day.

No one calls that low utilization.

N490HA on 2/18/2018 44,766 cycles
on 10/14/2019 50,087 cycles

or 8.82 cycles per day.

HA is brutal on aircraft. I think they will buy new. Look at N476HA, that plane built in 2001 is well past A319/A320 limit of Validity (60,000 cycle life). That is why the A220 would have to extend the limit of Validity to appeal to HA.

We had a thread on why the A32x family failed the further extension of limit of Validity (currently 60,000 cycles, 120,000 hours). The consensus was it started cracking on cycles. The thread is worth a look to better understand the A320 family fatigue life. The A32x isn't a long term solution for HA, in my opinion.

viewtopic.php?t=775787

An A220, if Airbus promised to extend limit of Validity would do well if Pratt could accelerate turn time.

Personally, I think Southwest would demand more cycles too. Discussion in this thread for WN:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1453297

In my opinion, the wing is good for far more. I do not know what the A220 body could do, but even 80,000 cycles would be good enough.

Lightsaber


What is the current LOV for the A220?
 
JonesNL
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:40 pm

Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:00 am

VV wrote:
Jetport wrote:
VV wrote:
How motivated is Airbus to sell A220?


That is the right question, isn't it. How much short to medium term pain is Airbus willing to endure to make the A220 successful? As I stated in the Southwest A220 thread, the opportunity cost for every A220 sale that could have been a A319/20 sale is many millions of dollars of lost cash. Airlines can almost surely buy 737-7's or A319NEO's for millions less than A220's. The 737-7 (and A319/20) cost millions less to make than the A220. This is Airbus' dilemma, do they sell cash flow negative A220's or cash flow positive A319/20's.


To be honest, I still do not fully understand how Airbus Canada Limited Partnership is managed.

We know it is a joint-venture between Airbus (an aircraft manufacturer) and Investissement Québec (financial institution) under Québec legal form of Limited Partnership or "Société en Commandite" in French.

The financial institution does not have any competence whatsoever in aircraft development, manufacturing, aircraft sales and marketing. Basically Airbus is the sole partner that does all the operations and hence it is 100% liable for everything that is engaged by Airbus Canada Limited Partnership and it can be demonstrated quite easily in court.

In my opinion, it is not a balanced partnership, but it is what it is.

So, the question about Airbus' motivation to sell a lot of A220 can be raised. Basically the effort to sell A320neo or A220 is the same. You still have to send people out to present stuff and negotiate the contract.
However, the return is not the same.

In addition, I noticed that the content of the A220 is mostly North American (engine, avionics, subassemblies etc.) as opposed to a much higher European content for A320neo (CFM is half French, UK wings, French/German fuselage, other subassemblies could be Spanish, French or German, some of the avionics is Thales).

So what's the point of selling more A220?
Is it to gain access to Canadian or Québec political class? I don't know.

The whole thing is not clear for me.


Well, in the WN situation the A319neo is not even an option. So, it is mainly for campaigns where the A32x would not sell anything anyway. And thus the outcome is some revenue instead of 0 revenue...
 
VV
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:24 am

JonesNL wrote:
VV wrote:
...
So what's the point of selling more A220?
Is it to gain access to Canadian or Québec political class? I don't know.

The whole thing is not clear for me.


Well, in the WN situation the A319neo is not even an option. So, it is mainly for campaigns where the A32x would not sell anything anyway. And thus the outcome is some revenue instead of 0 revenue...


Do we even know if it could be positive instead of negative?
 
JonesNL
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:12 am

VV wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
VV wrote:
...
So what's the point of selling more A220?
Is it to gain access to Canadian or Québec political class? I don't know.

The whole thing is not clear for me.


Well, in the WN situation the A319neo is not even an option. So, it is mainly for campaigns where the A32x would not sell anything anyway. And thus the outcome is some revenue instead of 0 revenue...


Do we even know if it could be positive instead of negative?


The WN deal might be sold at an loss to bring in future orders and lift the whole program to an profit. It is all speculation at this point...
 
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Taxi645
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:03 pm

Babyshark wrote:
Taxi645 wrote:
Sure an A320 provides more profit per produced aircraft normally. But these are not normal circumstances. I think Airbus would do well to take and remain the A320 at 43 instead of 45 and ramp the A220 to 7/8/months instead.


I think it would be wise to just stop at the A320 provides more profit.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost
Innovation is seeing opportunity before obstacle.
 
SA280
Posts: 47
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:00 pm

lightsaber wrote:
SA280 wrote:
Due to the low utilization profile, I foresee HA getting pre-owned A320s or even A319s for the intra-island rather than inducting a new family.

HA has the highest (in normal years) cycle utilization that I am aware of.

Use the FAA tracker:
https://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/Query.aspx

Using to find frames:
I picked N476HA
On 10 May 2018 62,843 cycles
On 19 October 2019 67,566
or 4,723 cycles in 537 days or 8.795 cycles per day.

No one calls that low utilization.

N490HA on 2/18/2018 44,766 cycles
on 10/14/2019 50,087 cycles

or 8.82 cycles per day.

HA is brutal on aircraft. I think they will buy new.

Yes, HA is pretty cycle-intensive. However, inter Island short hops make daily hours are pretty low.

The old X new trade-off here clearly favour old frames with very low ownership cost. The A220 fuel burn advantage wouldn't offset its much higher ownership cost.

So, the A22O should be a solution in 10 or 15 years. Pre-owned frames that are already flying somewhere.
 
Jetport
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:23 pm

Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:30 pm

lightsaber wrote:
SA280 wrote:
Due to the low utilization profile, I foresee HA getting pre-owned A320s or even A319s for the intra-island rather than inducting a new family.

HA has the highest (in normal years) cycle utilization that I am aware of.

Use the FAA tracker:
https://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/Query.aspx

Using to find frames:
I picked N476HA
On 10 May 2018 62,843 cycles
On 19 October 2019 67,566
or 4,723 cycles in 537 days or 8.795 cycles per day.

No one calls that low utilization.

N490HA on 2/18/2018 44,766 cycles
on 10/14/2019 50,087 cycles

or 8.82 cycles per day.

HA is brutal on aircraft. I think they will buy new. Look at N476HA, that plane built in 2001 is well past A319/A320 limit of Validity (60,000 cycle life). That is why the A220 would have to extend the limit of Validity to appeal to HA.

We had a thread on why the A32x family failed the further extension of limit of Validity (currently 60,000 cycles, 120,000 hours). The consensus was it started cracking on cycles. The thread is worth a look to better understand the A320 family fatigue life. The A32x isn't a long term solution for HA, in my opinion.

viewtopic.php?t=775787

An A220, if Airbus promised to extend limit of Validity would do well if Pratt could accelerate turn time.

Personally, I think Southwest would demand more cycles too. Discussion in this thread for WN:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1453297

In my opinion, the wing is good for far more. I do not know what the A220 body could do, but even 80,000 cycles would be good enough.

Lightsaber


I would think that HA would consider the EMB195E2. It will be cheaper and very close on fuel burn to the A220, especially with very short cruise times in Hawaii. How are are the E2's on cycle limits?
 
Sokes
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Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:11 pm

Did HA ever buy new planes?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
inkjet7
Posts: 234
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:32 am

Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:21 pm

tphuang wrote:
[

Airlines don't want MAX7 and A319NEO. A220 is far and away the most efficient aircraft in the 110 to 145 seat range at the moment. It's not particularly close.

Is the A220 efficient enough to persuade airlines not to get a used 737-700?
 
AMP44
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:01 pm

Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:23 pm

FLY CORALway was expected to go for the A220 (and even had a render of their livery on their website) but they have decided to go for the A320.

https://www.facebook.com/lanouvellerout ... 882307582/
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 397
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Airbus A220 sales campaign thread 2021

Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:40 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
[

Airlines don't want MAX7 and A319NEO. A220 is far and away the most efficient aircraft in the 110 to 145 seat range at the moment. It's not particularly close.

Is the A220 efficient enough to persuade airlines not to get a used 737-700?

Depends on the airline, their existing fleet, and their intended use.

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