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EMBSPBR
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Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:48 am

Welcome to the Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021.

Previous tread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1429033&start=100

Source:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... aller-jets

Lufthansa Talking With Planemakers on Switch to Smaller Jets

Excerpt:

Chief Executive Officer Carsten Spohr said in a webinar Monday as part of the London School of Economics German Symposium
said the airline is in fleet talks with Embraer SA, whose regional planes are operated at Lufthansa, Austrian and Air Dolomiti and
compete with the Airbus A220 used by Swiss. He didn’t comment further on the discussions.

And:

Source:
https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... e-lucht-in

Excerpt (translated):

SÃO JOSE DOS CAMPOS - (SJK, SBSJ):

KLM's second Embraer E195-E2 made its first test flight at the plant in Brazil on February 10, 2021.
This is the PR-EAF, which will receive the Dutch registration PH-NXB. The first E2 for KLM was launched last month.

KLM has officially ordered 21 of these whisper jets, each of which can accommodate 132 passengers and uses up to 30 percent less fuel.
Behind the scenes, however, 4 options were redeemed, bringing the total to 25.
The E195-E2s will be used soon at Cityhopper.

and:

Source: https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/home

KLM looking for more E195 E2’s (article in Dutch and behind a paywall).
 
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Antaras
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:04 am

I am seeing VN as a very potential customer of the type. This carrier has been looking for a regional jet seating 80-100 pax, and the E2 family seems like its only option. I expect this Southeast Asian airline will order up to a dozen airframe in 2021-2022, the order may consist of the E175 and/or E190.
If you disagree with my statement, assume that it was just a joke :duck:
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:07 am

Antaras wrote:
I am seeing VN as a very potential customer of the type. This carrier has been looking for a regional jet seating 80-100 pax, and the E2 family seems like its only option. I expect this Southeast Asian airline will order up to a dozen airframe in 2021-2022, the order may consist of the E175 and/or E190.

In my opinion, they will be the largest potential buyer.

I'll nitpick and bet on the E2-195 mostly. I think they'll go a little larger.

Lightsaber
10 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:38 am

lightsaber wrote:
Antaras wrote:
I am seeing VN as a very potential customer of the type. This carrier has been looking for a regional jet seating 80-100 pax, and the E2 family seems like its only option. I expect this Southeast Asian airline will order up to a dozen airframe in 2021-2022, the order may consist of the E175 and/or E190.

In my opinion, they will be the largest potential buyer.

I'll nitpick and bet on the E2-195 mostly. I think they'll go a little larger.

Lightsaber

I would bet on the E175-E2. If you have a look again at the Bamboo-Embraer thread, you may see that small airports such as VCS are load-restricted that they cannot even hold a fully-loaded E1-E195. And as VN is targeting the E2s for operation at those airports, the E195 seems a bit too heavy and nonsensical for VN. I think that VN would choose the 80-seat E175 and 100-seat E190 initially to replace the 70-seat ATR 72, and then it can go to the 120-seat E195 in the next few years later.
If you disagree with my statement, assume that it was just a joke :duck:
 
Jungleneer
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:47 am

Some good news for Embraer:
https://embraer.com/global/en/news?slug ... arter-2021

“ On April 23, the Company signed a firm order for 30 E195-E2 jets with an undisclosed customer, with deliveries starting in 2022. The 30 firm orders will be included in Embraer’s second quarter backlog;”
 
SEU
Posts: 345
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:58 am

Jungleneer wrote:
Some good news for Embraer:
https://embraer.com/global/en/news?slug ... arter-2021

“ On April 23, the Company signed a firm order for 30 E195-E2 jets with an undisclosed customer, with deliveries starting in 2022. The 30 firm orders will be included in Embraer’s second quarter backlog;”


I hope its BA Cityflyer, but dont see them needing that many planes
 
avi8
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:32 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
Jungleneer wrote:
Some good news for Embraer:
https://embraer.com/global/en/news?slug ... arter-2021

“ On April 23, the Company signed a firm order for 30 E195-E2 jets with an undisclosed customer, with deliveries starting in 2022. The 30 firm orders will be included in Embraer’s second quarter backlog;”


I could see Copa Airlines ordering these. I know they retired the E190s but the new version is a lot more efficient and maintenance friendly. They could definitely use a lower capacity plane.
avi8
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:12 pm

SEU wrote:
Jungleneer wrote:
Some good news for Embraer:
https://embraer.com/global/en/news?slug ... arter-2021

“ On April 23, the Company signed a firm order for 30 E195-E2 jets with an undisclosed customer, with deliveries starting in 2022. The 30 firm orders will be included in Embraer’s second quarter backlog;”


I hope its BA Cityflyer, but dont see them needing that many planes


Maybe LOT, Air France, a second batch to AZUL, or Japan Airlines ...
 
edu2703
Posts: 177
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:37 pm

Good news for Embraer. Now I wonder which costumer is it.

I really can't imagine any airline other than the ones that have already placed orders, that needs 30 E195-E2. Or maybe it's a leasing company.
 
A320B737NGCapt
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:44 pm

Trujet a regional airline of India has been talking of ordering the E295 and A223 for their big expansion plans.
 
edu2703
Posts: 177
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:59 pm

A320B737NGCapt wrote:
Trujet a regional airline of India has been talking of ordering the E295 and A223 for their big expansion plans.


From what I remember reading the news, they planned to place order for the E190-E2 and not the E195-E2. And that would also be 54 E190-E2 and 54 A220-100.
 
inkjet7
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:00 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:

Maybe Air France


AF ordered the competition.
--
 
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Crosswind
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:26 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
AF ordered the competition.


That was an A220-300 order to replace part of the mainline A318/319 fleet.

Air France Hop operate 32 E170/190s, and are a separate subsidiary making their own fleet decisions.

Same as Air France and KLM making their own separate fleet decisions despite being jointly owned.

Best Regards
CROSSWIND
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:44 pm

Or maybe for an Lufthansa subsidiary
 
DUSZRH
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:09 pm

Don't expect a listed company.... So no LH, AF, BA etc.
 
vfw614
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:01 pm

SEU wrote:
Jungleneer wrote:
Some good news for Embraer:
https://embraer.com/global/en/news?slug ... arter-2021

“ On April 23, the Company signed a firm order for 30 E195-E2 jets with an undisclosed customer, with deliveries starting in 2022. The 30 firm orders will be included in Embraer’s second quarter backlog;”


I hope its BA Cityflyer, but dont see them needing that many planes


The E195 cannot get into LCY - can the E295?
 
T4thH
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:28 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:

Maybe Air France


AF ordered the competition.

Not Air France, Air France has ordered the A220 -300.

But it can also not be the regional AF airline arm HOP. According France laws, regional airlines have a form of protection. Main airlines like AF are not allowed to have jets with less than 100 seats, regional airlines are not allowed to have planes with more than 99 seats. But it is allowed, that an airline group or a main airline like AF can fully own a regional airline, like HOP, as long as the airline is still independent.
So HOP will never order a jet with more than 100 seats. They will in best case order the E190-E2 with just 99 seats. They are a regional airline, so they are just not allowed to fly a plane with more than 99 seats.
EMBSPBR wrote:
Or maybe for an Lufthansa subsidiary

LH group is listed on stock market, an order of this size had to be announced on same day, or latest, before the stock market opens on following day.
So no, not LH group or any other airline, which is listed.
 
Nean1
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:37 pm

Something to remember is the pace of production necessary for Embraer to reach a break-even point.

All of Embraer's commercial aircraft production is located in a single location, without duplication. There has also been no recent investment to increase production capacity. The lean production line is shared with the E1 generation. This means that probably on the scale of 5-6 aircraft (E1/2) produced per month the production is profitable. I suppose the direct competitor will need almost three times that rate of production to the break-even.
 
Nean1
Posts: 543
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:56 am

A total of 152 CSeries/220 aircraft were delivered from entry into service (Jul / 16) until last month. This gives a production rate of 2.7 aircraft / month, which is very little and costly for those who needed to develop new technologies and have two production plants. Embraer has had an average cadence of 8 aircraft / month since 2004 for the E1 / 2 lines in its single production line. It speaks something in terms of product cost.
 
avier
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:35 pm

Nean1 wrote:
The lean production line is shared with the E1 generation. This means that probably on the scale of 5-6 aircraft (E1/2) produced per month the production is profitable. I suppose the direct competitor will need almost three times that rate of production to the break-even.

What is the order backlog for the E1 series? If that's almost done, their entire production can be dedicated to E2 and can churn out aircrafts faster. Will work better for airlines that need faster deliveries from placing an order. Trujet mentioned something about both E2 and A220 delivery time frame, with former being faster. That can actually tilt the order completely to E2 if they going for just one of them. And they are in hurried expansion mode.
 
Capricorn
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:41 pm

I am suspecting a Chinese airlines behind this order. Reason being equally political and the need for a functioning smaller plane to develop some regional routs.

I agree, a listed company in the US/Europe seems very unlikely due go the regulations.

But overall good news for the E2.
 
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Polot
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:08 pm

Once again you guys are thinking the disclosure rules are far stricter than they actually are. Airlines don’t have to immediately disclose as soon as they signed. Just this year UA signed an order with Boeing for 25 737maxes on February 26 but didn’t publicly disclose until March 1. There are plenty of other examples of that out there too (eg HA and the 787)
 
Nean1
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Sat May 01, 2021 12:03 am

avier wrote:
Nean1 wrote:
The lean production line is shared with the E1 generation. This means that probably on the scale of 5-6 aircraft (E1/2) produced per month the production is profitable. I suppose the direct competitor will need almost three times that rate of production to the break-even.

What is the order backlog for the E1 series? If that's almost done, their entire production can be dedicated to E2 and can churn out aircrafts faster. Will work better for airlines that need faster deliveries from placing an order. Trujet mentioned something about both E2 and A220 delivery time frame, with former being faster. That can actually tilt the order completely to E2 if they going for just one of them. And they are in hurried expansion mode.


There is an order book of around 130 175E1, which translates into more than three years of production (assuming a cadence of 3 units per month). In the absence of competitors within the Scope Clauses, there is no doubt that such a pace can be maintained until 2028, even because there are a large number of regional aircraft that will need to be retired in the next 10 years.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Sat May 01, 2021 1:58 am

I hope this is for Air Dolomiti or Lufthansa CityLine.


avi8 wrote:
I could see Copa Airlines ordering these. I know they retired the E190s but the new version is a lot more efficient and maintenance friendly. They could definitely use a lower capacity plane.


I too thought that the E195E2 would have been the perfect plane to compliment the MAX9 in COPA's fleet and was disappointed when they announced the retirement of their E190s. Surely the E190 retirements make it unlikely for the airline to operate Embraer E2s in the medium term? I hope I'm wrong. Doesn't make a lot of sense to retire a type for ~2 years and then introduce a near identical type. It would be very interested to see what secondary destinations the E2 would allow them to open up.
Last edited by zkojq on Sat May 01, 2021 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
First to fly the 787-9
 
jbs2886
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Sat May 01, 2021 2:06 am

Polot wrote:
Once again you guys are thinking the disclosure rules are far stricter than they actually are. Airlines don’t have to immediately disclose as soon as they signed. Just this year UA signed an order with Boeing for 25 737maxes on February 26 but didn’t publicly disclose until March 1. There are plenty of other examples of that out there too (eg HA and the 787)


Thank you! I’ve said this so many times on this forum but people continue to post this incorrect information. The issues are materiality and timing. And what people think is material on this forum, likely isn’t.
 
edu2703
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Wed May 19, 2021 7:53 pm

According to Leham News, Porter is confirmed as customer in E195-E2 deal

https://leehamnews.com/2021/05/19/hotr- ... 5-e2-deal/

Now I'm curious if Porter intends to operate E195-E2 from Toronto/Bishop airport. The runways seem to be very short for E195-E2's. It's also quite intriguing that a Canadian airline that has received support from the Canadian government to buy Brazilian jets that compete with a canadian aircraft. Of course it wouldn't be the first time, since Air Canada has bought E-jets, but still.
Last edited by edu2703 on Wed May 19, 2021 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Wed May 19, 2021 8:06 pm

edu2703 wrote:
According to Leham News, Porter is confirmed as customer in E195-E2 deal

https://leehamnews.com/2021/05/19/hotr- ... 5-e2-deal/

Now I'm curious if Porter intends to operate E195-E2 from Toronto/Bishop airport. The runways seem to be very short for E195-E2's. It's also quite intriguing that a Canadian airline that has received support from the Canadian government to buy Brazilian jets that compete with a canadian aircraft. Of course it wouldn't be the first time, since Air Canada bought E-jets, but still.


No jets allowed out of YTZ, don't think that will change. I think PD is going to operate these out of YHM and YOW. Just my belief, no concrete proof.
 
Jungleneer
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Wed May 19, 2021 9:00 pm

edu2703 wrote:
According to Leham News, Porter is confirmed as customer in E195-E2 deal

https://leehamnews.com/2021/05/19/hotr- ... 5-e2-deal/

Now I'm curious if Porter intends to operate E195-E2 from Toronto/Bishop airport. The runways seem to be very short for E195-E2's. It's also quite intriguing that a Canadian airline that has received support from the Canadian government to buy Brazilian jets that compete with a canadian aircraft. Of course it wouldn't be the first time, since Air Canada has bought E-jets, but still.


SDU runway length is 1260 m, YTZ is 1216m. Azul operates in SDU with full pax. Therefore, not impossible for YTZ.
 
yyztpa
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Wed May 19, 2021 11:06 pm

Jungleneer wrote:
edu2703 wrote:
According to Leham News, Porter is confirmed as customer in E195-E2 deal

https://leehamnews.com/2021/05/19/hotr- ... 5-e2-deal/

Now I'm curious if Porter intends to operate E195-E2 from Toronto/Bishop airport. The runways seem to be very short for E195-E2's. It's also quite intriguing that a Canadian airline that has received support from the Canadian government to buy Brazilian jets that compete with a canadian aircraft. Of course it wouldn't be the first time, since Air Canada has bought E-jets, but still.


SDU runway length is 1260 m, YTZ is 1216m. Azul operates in SDU with full pax. Therefore, not impossible for YTZ.

It's governmwent policy not runway length dictating the restriction.
 
Jungleneer
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Re: Embraer E2 Sales Campaign Thread - 2021

Wed May 19, 2021 11:17 pm

Yeah, I am saying not technically impossible, despite the government policies.

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