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WayexTDI
Posts: 2160
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: EU Preparing Airline Eco-Label system

Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:03 am

Draken21fx wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Draken21fx wrote:


Where does it state that the CO2 is concentrated in Europe? It shows CO2 in produced in general and obviously it doesnt always matter where the CO2 is produced as it can the potential to affect the ecosystem at the other end of the planet.

Of course CO2 rejected in the atmosphere affects everybody on Earth.
But how can you compare intra-European flights and CO2 rejection with extra-European flights and CO2 rejection, and then peg them against each other?


Well if I understood correctly your question the answer is quite simple.

Eurocontrol investigates flights originating from European airports and their impact on CO2. Destination is irrelevant.

You can have plenty of flights departing from a European airport and arriving at a non European one of less than 500km so those would count towards the <500 km total.

Similarly you can have a intra-European flight of >4000km.

Again destination does not matter, rather than number of flights.

The correct debate in my eyes wouldnt be intra-European vs non intra-European but km per passenger flown vs emissions but the >4000km flights would be leading that metric as well but maybe not by that much though.

Long-haul flights duration happen disproportionally outside of the European airspace than 500km-or-less flight, when both originate and/or end in Europe.
So, you cannot compare what's not comparable.

If we were to compare the same criterion on a world-wide basis, then it would make sense; and it would give a clearer picture where progress should be made.

Like you mentioned, regardless where CO2 is generated, it affects us all.

EDIT: what Europe is doing right now towards flights goes counter to what this "study" concludes. Right now, the push is to reduce short flights and replace them with ground transportation; if the study was correct, then why do that since they generate less CO2?
 
fly2moon
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:21 pm

Re: EU Preparing Airline Eco-Label system

Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:31 am

Emissions footprint alone could be a misleading metric for consumers. For example, examine a case of a modern narrow body aircraft with dense seating, low consumption and emission per seat kilometer such as A321NEO being used to fly a person for two hours across Europe for no valid reason. Emission generated during that trip, while much lower compared to older generation jet for example from the 1980s, is still an unnecessary waste of non-renewable resource and creation of CO2 and other polluting emissions as there was no valid reason to transport that person.

When low cost airlines sell a seat for 5 to 10 euro even on cleanest, most efficient aircraft of today, they are incentivizing wasteful consumption and promoting unnecessary travel that, in aggregate, amounts to large emissions. Some people use the opportunity to fly to another city for 10 euro just to have a coffee or lunch and come back later that day. While I agree they should have the freedom to do so if they please, in my opinion increasing the price from 10 to 100 euro for that airline ticket would discourage many from doing so. It is not just about lowering CO2 emissions, it is also about reducing wasteful consumption behaviour that creates CO2 emissions. I do not see this EU effort addressing the consumption part.

Apparently new ideas and approaches are emerging to address it. One could be to introduce requirements that would curb unneeded consumption by setting minimum ticket price per route.
 
ScottB
Posts: 7310
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: EU Preparing Airline Eco-Label system

Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:41 am

fly2moon wrote:
Emission generated during that trip, while much lower compared to older generation jet for example from the 1980s, is still an unnecessary waste of non-renewable resource and creation of CO2 and other polluting emissions as there was no valid reason to transport that person.


Who gets to decide what constitutes a "valid reason to transport that person?" Does government dictate that all persons are allotted a single vacation trip per year (the well-connected would be exempted, of course)? Maybe an exception for a funeral, but if you want to visit mom & dad, you'd better not plan on a beach vacation that year.

fly2moon wrote:
When low cost airlines sell a seat for 5 to 10 euro even on cleanest, most efficient aircraft of today, they are incentivizing wasteful consumption and promoting unnecessary travel that, in aggregate, amounts to large emissions.


You do understand that even low-cost airlines do not make money on a fare of 5 to 10 euro, right? Not unless they're able to charge a bunch of fees on top of that teaser fare. Those incredibly cheap fares are a marketing tactic which largely sells seats which wouldn't have been purchased otherwise, and the incremental fuel burned to carry another 100 kg of passenger + bags is minimal.

fly2moon wrote:
One could be to introduce requirements that would curb unneeded consumption by setting minimum ticket price per route.


Why bother with a competitive aviation market, then? Just go back to the days of state-owned carriers and government-mandated fares. That worked very well to suppress air traffic.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2506
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: EU Preparing Airline Eco-Label system

Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:03 am

ScottB wrote:
fly2moon wrote:
Emission generated during that trip, while much lower compared to older generation jet for example from the 1980s, is still an unnecessary waste of non-renewable resource and creation of CO2 and other polluting emissions as there was no valid reason to transport that person.


Who gets to decide what constitutes a "valid reason to transport that person?"

That's easy. Money.

Put a price tag on emissions. Then you get to decide whether you can afford to pollute the environment or not.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10181
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: EU Preparing Airline Eco-Label system

Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:24 am

sirloin wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Long overdue, people need to understand that flying is bad for the environment.
...says the 16-year member of an aviation fansite...

Do you drive a car? Live in a home with electricity?

Disclaimer: if you said that to be funny/sarcastic, disregard my response.


We have reduced the cars to one and turned it into a small car. Electricity is 100% renewable and I have reduced my flying for private purposes to 2-4 flights are year. Once the night train network growths, I hope to no longer fly at all. And yes, I think it is important that people think about their need to fly.
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 4091
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

Re: EU Preparing Airline Eco-Label system

Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:17 am

janders wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
What's wrong with asking the biggest polluters to contribute more towards fixing the problem?


:sarcastic:

As the linked article states study indicates aviation contributes to 3.5% of global greenhouse gasses.

How about focus on the real sources - heck agriculture and lifestock contribute 24%! All of industry is 21%, while electricity and heat production is 25%.

Seems the focus on airlines is largely wasting time on an inconsequential producer.


Aviation is represented by say five serious manufacturers and another five large engine manufacturers, and 10,000 airlines globally (not sure if that number fits, estimate). On a global scale that´s easy to regulate and set targets for, especially as the technical innovation for fuel reduction and thus CO² reduction is largely driven by 10 players and probably 50 airlines with decent scale.

Compare that to millions of farmers, factories and power plants. The latter two are in a somewhat similar league as they can be controlled easily, farming is much more difficult. And on the electricity side the drive to bring in non-CO² emitting sources such as wind, PV, geothermal, tidal etc. is running at an astonishing pace. China alone added 72 gigawatt (that´s about 25,000 wind turbines) of additional wind power capacity last year. That sector is in full swing to remove CO². No chance for any industry to say "I´m too small, I don´t count".

And: looking how many MD-80, DC-9, 737-200/300 etc. are still plying the skies it is certainly a valid question to ask why the inefficiency of these planes compared to newer generation birds shall not be made visible to the flying public.
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2953
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: EU Preparing Airline Eco-Label system

Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:34 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Virtue signaling of the worst kind. Bosses insisted on a “green” offset program for the company bizjet. Nicely affixed label by the entry door showing the greed creds. Boss smiles approvingly to me upon seeing it, boards solo for a trip NYC-LON. Don’t, for an instant, think these people actually believe this narrative.


Yes, you've nailed it. A meaningless gesture to make them feel better about themselves. Kind of like this past Christmas my aunt kept telling my grandmother she needed to replace her 1980 KitchenAid dishwasher that's still working great because "it's not energy efficient". Meanwhile I know my aunt has been through four dishwashers just since 2002. Now, you tell me what's so environmentally friendly about the modern endless cycle of building and trashing untold numbers of cheap appliances. It isn't. Just dishonest marketing to play on emotions.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2506
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: EU Preparing Airline Eco-Label system

Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:27 am

Flying-Tiger wrote:
And: looking how many MD-80, DC-9, 737-200/300 etc. are still plying the skies it is certainly a valid question to ask why the inefficiency of these planes compared to newer generation birds shall not be made visible to the flying public.

To be fair, I don't think there's a single DC-9 or 737-200 left in the EU in 2021. There is less than a handful of MD-80 (I see only the 2 of DAT) and a number of 737-300/400 though the latter are mostly in cargo service.

TTailedTiger wrote:
Now, you tell me what's so environmentally friendly about the modern endless cycle of building and trashing untold numbers of cheap appliances. It isn't. Just dishonest marketing to play on emotions.

Exactly, it's clearly better for the environment to keep the sturdy DC-9 and 707 in service, made from easily recyclable aluminum, rather than to replace them with cheap plastic A350 that you have to discard after 12 years.

Silly airline managers, how do they not see the truth through the aircraft OEM's cheap marketing.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9325
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: EU Preparing Airline Eco-Label system

Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:59 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Virtue signaling of the worst kind. Bosses insisted on a “green” offset program for the company bizjet. Nicely affixed label by the entry door showing the greed creds. Boss smiles approvingly to me upon seeing it, boards solo for a trip NYC-LON. Don’t, for an instant, think these people actually believe this narrative.


Yes, you've nailed it. A meaningless gesture to make them feel better about themselves. Kind of like this past Christmas my aunt kept telling my grandmother she needed to replace her 1980 KitchenAid dishwasher that's still working great because "it's not energy efficient". Meanwhile I know my aunt has been through four dishwashers just since 2002. Now, you tell me what's so environmentally friendly about the modern endless cycle of building and trashing untold numbers of cheap appliances. It isn't. Just dishonest marketing to play on emotions.


The financial question - junking working but inefficient appliances vs. installing new - depends on frequency of use, energy intensity, and generational efficiency improvements. There's the supplemental question of how one values CO2 reductions. A person with a good education in economics can frame this properly and answer it an about two minutes, which is why you got mxaxai's mocking reply.

mxaxai wrote:
Exactly, it's clearly better for the environment to keep the sturdy DC-9 and 707 in service, made from easily recyclable aluminum, rather than to replace them with cheap plastic A350 that you have to discard after 12 years.

Silly airline managers, how do they not see the truth through the aircraft OEM's cheap marketing.


Refrigerators in the U.S. market saw a 72% reduction in energy use from the late 70s to 2014. Anybody with a late 70s fridge who lives in an area with electricity costs meaningfully above the national average really ought to replace it (or consider if they still need that capacity of this spare fridge in the garage and can't just send it for recycling). Were it that 737s (and A300s and successors) had improved in fuel efficiency by 72% in that time. (We got a 44% improvement in fuel burn per seat mile from DC-10s to A380s according to U.S. DOT and Airbus claims.)

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