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kiowa
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FAA warns operators of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression risk

Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:18 pm

The FAA put out an AD on the doors of 737s. Do the hits keep coming for the 737 fleet and Boeing in general?

https://airwaysmag.com/industry/boeing/ ... 3kZuUQcvSg
Last edited by SQ22 on Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
smokeybandit
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:30 pm

Based on that airlines have upwards of 10,000 cycles to fix the issue. Doesn't exactly sound urgent.
 
Antarius
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:48 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
Based on that airlines have upwards of 10,000 cycles to fix the issue. Doesn't exactly sound urgent.


Yup. It's just another AD like we see on all airframes.
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lightsaber
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:01 am

Antarius wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
Based on that airlines have upwards of 10,000 cycles to fix the issue. Doesn't exactly sound urgent.


Yup. It's just another AD like we see on all airframes.

Exactly. There are ADs everyday. If some here followed every one, the would never fly.

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N766UA
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:04 am

It is a bit lame that they’re having issues with a 60+ year old door design, though.
 
Opus99
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:17 am

N766UA wrote:
It is a bit lame that they’re having issues with a 60+ year old door design, though.

You're acting like the frame has not been updated once in 60 years. Smallest change can still cause problems.
 
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kordcj
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:52 am

Opus99 wrote:
N766UA wrote:
It is a bit lame that they’re having issues with a 60+ year old door design, though.

You're acting like the frame has not been updated once in 60 years. Smallest change can still cause problems.


The design is the problem though. Like the fatigue life cycle testing of the bolt in the NG/MAX configuration wasn’t fully vetted for them to miss this. It’s probably not a huge deal, but it does speak to the shortcomings of the design that the classics (which are still flying mind you) weren’t included in the AD.
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superjeff
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:55 am

I think a lot of the concern here is that Boeing has never been very forthcoming about problems. I keep pointing back to the 737 rudder issues in the early 1980's, with the United 737-200 accident in Colorado Springs, and the US Air 737-300 at Pittsburg, followed by the Eastwind 737-300(?) over Trenton. I think if the Eastwind pilots hadn't been able to recover and save their airplane we might never have been aware of the problem, and we do know that one of the main reasons US Airways always favored Airbus after their accident was that Boeing tried to blame the accident on pilot error (I don't remember what they said after United). So, unfortunately, Boeing has a reputation that they will not accept blame or even admit a problem exists.
 
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Polot
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:10 am

kordcj wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
N766UA wrote:
It is a bit lame that they’re having issues with a 60+ year old door design, though.

You're acting like the frame has not been updated once in 60 years. Smallest change can still cause problems.


The design is the problem though. Like the fatigue life cycle testing of the bolt in the NG/MAX configuration wasn’t fully vetted for them to miss this. It’s probably not a huge deal, but it does speak to the shortcomings of the design that the classics (which are still flying mind you) weren’t included in the AD.

Designs are never perfect. The Classics have had plenty of ADs too. The A350 is the newest brand new plane out there, yet... “This AD was prompted by a report that certain retaining rings could cause damage to frame forks, brackets and edge frames, and their surface protection; subsequent investigation showed that the depth of the frame fork spotfacing on structural parts is inadequate to accommodate the retaining ring” (https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guid ... -02-10.pdf)

Fatigue life testing is never perfect. For example, there is also currently an AD out there for the A330/A340 family due to possible hydraulic system failure because of “fatigue failure of the screws attaching the manual valve to the ground service manifold”. (https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guid ... -01-06.pdf). It’s also entirely possible this nut issue was caught because of Boeing’s fatigue life testing.

This is only getting attention (and hysterics from some posters here) because it contains the words “Boeing” and “737”.

superjeff wrote:
I think a lot of the concern here is that Boeing has never been very forthcoming about problems. I keep pointing back to the 737 rudder issues in the early 1980's, with the United 737-200 accident in Colorado Springs, and the US Air 737-300 at Pittsburg, followed by the Eastwind 737-300(?) over Trenton. I think if the Eastwind pilots hadn't been able to recover and save their airplane we might never have been aware of the problem, and we do know that one of the main reasons US Airways always favored Airbus after their accident was that Boeing tried to blame the accident on pilot error (I don't remember what they said after United). So, unfortunately, Boeing has a reputation that they will not accept blame or even admit a problem exists.

An AD is literally the opposite of Boeing hiding a problem. An issue was discovered, proper authorities notified, and solution (either permanent or interim until new AD is released) given to operators.
 
wjcandee
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:55 am

The premise of the original post, and the stupid Airways "Magazine" click-bait headline, is completely-flawed.

The FAA didn't "warn" of a dang thing. Nobody "warned of rapid decompressions in the 737NG and MAX". Nobody.

This was an AD that said that a particular model of lug that may or may not be on thousands of 737 doors is not of the required thickness and possibly therefore prone to fatigue cracking. IF there was a fatigue crack that developed into a sufficiently-large crack that caused the lug to give way, there could be a rapid decompression. Okay, swell, thanks.

The non-urgency of the AD is shown in the fact that airlines have 10,000 cycles, which is well-over 5 years, to inspect and replace the part.

This part (and the door to which it is attached) apparently carried over from the NG to the MAX. But put "MAX" in the headline, and suddenly it's clickbait.

Anybody here hear of any doors giving way on 737s in the 24 years since the NG started being produced? Me neither.

Yawn. I'm going back to sleep. And losing none over this. Glad they caught it. Nothing to see here.
 
slvrblt
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:19 pm

wjcandee wrote:
The premise of the original post, and the stupid Airways "Magazine" click-bait headline, is completely-flawed........................

.....Yawn. I'm going back to sleep. And losing none over this. Glad they caught it. Nothing to see here.


LOL! wjcandee.....you crack me up. But I enjoy your factual, straight-to-the-point posts.
..everything works out in the end.
 
superjeff
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:40 pm

superjeff wrote:
I think a lot of the concern here is that Boeing has never been very forthcoming about problems. I keep pointing back to the 737 rudder issues in the early 1980's, with the United 737-200 accident in Colorado Springs, and the US Air 737-300 at Pittsburg, followed by the Eastwind 737-300(?) over Trenton. I think if the Eastwind pilots hadn't been able to recover and save their airplane we might never have been aware of the problem, and we do know that one of the main reasons US Airways always favored Airbus after their accident was that Boeing tried to blame the accident on pilot error (I don't remember what they said after United). So, unfortunately, Boeing has a reputation that they will not accept blame or even admit a problem exists.


An AD is literally the opposite of Boeing hiding a problem. An issue was discovered, proper authorities notified, and solution (either permanent or interim until new AD is released) given to operators.[/quote]

The question here is who determined the need for an AD? Did Boeing report anything, or did a regulator (including by receiving reports from operators)? I still think Boeing (and I like their airplanes) has shot themselves in the foot by being less than open in the past. Now, they have no choice but to become proactive, because the only other alternative may well be being faced with loss of business and regulatory issues for the company.
 
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par13del
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:57 pm

So if an airline doing maintenance in the normal course of operating a Boeing a/c notice something, the first thing they will do is to notify the FAA or the vendor?
 
CaptainKoror
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:10 pm

The 737 door is a plug type door that also opens into the slipstream. At altitude there is approximately 2,000 pounds of force holding it in place. The door is not going to blow it self open like in the movies.
 
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ssteve
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:51 pm

superjeff wrote:
I think a lot of the concern here is that Boeing has never been very forthcoming about problems. I keep pointing back to the 737 rudder issues in the early 1980's, with the United 737-200 accident in Colorado Springs, and the US Air 737-300 at Pittsburg, followed by the Eastwind 737-300(?) over Trenton. I think if the Eastwind pilots hadn't been able to recover and save their airplane we might never have been aware of the problem, and we do know that one of the main reasons US Airways always favored Airbus after their accident was that Boeing tried to blame the accident on pilot error (I don't remember what they said after United). So, unfortunately, Boeing has a reputation that they will not accept blame or even admit a problem exists.


Anyone who was senior enough to be involved in public messaging or airlines relations or dealing with the regulators in the 1980s... has long since retired and/or died.

And that said, I can't pin down exactly when Boeing knew about a problem and wasn't forthcoming in your narrative above. It's like you're saying Boeing knew the root cause of the problem before those plucky Eastwind pilots blew the whistle? I'm sure that's counterfactual.
 
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Polot
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:56 pm

superjeff wrote:

The question here is who determined the need for an AD? Did Boeing report anything, or did a regulator (including by receiving reports from operators)? I still think Boeing (and I like their airplanes) has shot themselves in the foot by being less than open in the past. Now, they have no choice but to become proactive, because the only other alternative may well be being faced with loss of business and regulatory issues for the company.

It could be either. Hypothetically, just because operators were reporting about premature fatigue of the nuts doesn’t mean Boeing knew in advanced and was hiding it.

Problems with planes are usually uncovered out in the field after real world use. The first one to uncover the issue is often the operators, not the OEM. Operators inform OEM who investigate issue further.
 
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adv40624
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:40 pm

US Airways did not order Airbus planes because of the crash of the 737. They obtained a $250 million dollar loan from Airbus as part of a 20 plane order. US Airways needed cash and Boeing was not going to play the role of a banker and loan them money.

https://www.deseret.com/2005/5/16/19892 ... -in-merger
 
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Polot
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:18 pm

adv40624 wrote:
US Airways did not order Airbus planes because of the crash of the 737. They obtained a $250 million dollar loan from Airbus as part of a 20 plane order. US Airways needed cash and Boeing was not going to play the role of a banker and loan them money.

https://www.deseret.com/2005/5/16/19892 ... -in-merger

He is referring to large order USAir(ways) placed in the mid to late 90s. US’s anger over how Boeing treated them during the rudder saga played a huge role in US turning to Airbus. Boeing blamed pilots, US was arguing there was an aircraft issue. US was once the largest 737 operator in the world (unsure if that was still the case when the Airbus order was placed or if WN had surpassed them by then).
 
WayexTDI
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:53 pm

par13del wrote:
So if an airline doing maintenance in the normal course of operating a Boeing a/c notice something, the first thing they will do is to notify the FAA or the vendor?

I believe it depends on the issue.
From memory, when the airline blows an emergency evacuation slide before removing it for overhaul (they do that on a certain percentage to ensure they still work up to their on-wing allowed time) and it doesn't work properly, I think the airline is to notify both the OEM and the FAA; the OEM will also contact the FAA.
 
hayzel777
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:55 pm

par13del wrote:
So if an airline doing maintenance in the normal course of operating a Boeing a/c notice something, the first thing they will do is to notify the FAA or the vendor?

Most of the large airlines in the US have OEM representatives that work in the airline office, specifically to help with maintenance and any teething issues. They will also assist the sales team when it comes time to make orders (but that is not their main job). If any issue is discovered, they will normally let the OEM know via the on-site rep or their assigned maintenance rep.
 
T54A
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:10 pm

https://www.google.co.za/amp/s/www.time ... unscathed/

Loss of cabin pressure experienced during Johannesburg to Durban flight
T6, Allouette 3, Oryx, King Air, B1900, B727, B744, A319, A342/3/6 A332/3 A359
 
hayzel777
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:13 pm

T54A wrote:
https://www.google.co.za/amp/s/www.timeslive.co.za/amp/news/south-africa/2021-02-19-mayday-at-27000ft-but-117-passengers-on-mango-flight-to-durban-emerge-unscathed/

Loss of cabin pressure experienced during Johannesburg to Durban flight

Gaslighting. Depressurization happens all the time.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:34 pm

He is referring to large order USAir(ways) placed in the mid to late 90s. US’s anger over how Boeing treated them during the rudder saga played a huge role in US turning to Airbus. Boeing blamed pilots, US was arguing there was an aircraft issue. US was once the largest 737 operator in the world (unsure if that was still the case when the Airbus order was placed or if WN had surpassed them by then).


This.

Boeing was also highly dismissive of the Eastwind pilots, too. If the captain hadn't instinctively applied thrust to the engine on the dipping wing, that plane would have been lost, too. Instead of congratulating the pilot and learning from what had (almost) happened, Boeing denigrated his flying skills and almost accused him of causing the crash.
 
superjeff
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:02 pm

ssteve wrote:
superjeff wrote:
I think a lot of the concern here is that Boeing has never been very forthcoming about problems. I keep pointing back to the 737 rudder issues in the early 1980's, with the United 737-200 accident in Colorado Springs, and the US Air 737-300 at Pittsburg, followed by the Eastwind 737-300(?) over Trenton. I think if the Eastwind pilots hadn't been able to recover and save their airplane we might never have been aware of the problem, and we do know that one of the main reasons US Airways always favored Airbus after their accident was that Boeing tried to blame the accident on pilot error (I don't remember what they said after United). So, unfortunately, Boeing has a reputation that they will not accept blame or even admit a problem exists.


Anyone who was senior enough to be involved in public messaging or airlines relations or dealing with the regulators in the 1980s... has long since retired and/or died.

And that said, I can't pin down exactly when Boeing knew about a problem and wasn't forthcoming in your narrative above. It's like you're saying Boeing knew the root cause of the problem before those plucky Eastwind pilots blew the whistle? I'm sure that's counterfactual.



Nah, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that Boeing needed to do more than just blame the operators. Just like McDonnell Douglas needed to do more with the initial DC10 baggage compartment issue (and Boeing as well on their 747's). I'm not throwing sticks at Boeing. And yes, Airbus invested in US Airways after their bankruptcy and ended up with a big order (or series of orders), but I don't think you can dismiss the fact that the "bigs" at US AIr were not happy with Boeing.
 
T54A
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:43 am

hayzel777 wrote:
T54A wrote:
https://www.google.co.za/amp/s/www.timeslive.co.za/amp/news/south-africa/2021-02-19-mayday-at-27000ft-but-117-passengers-on-mango-flight-to-durban-emerge-unscathed/

Loss of cabin pressure experienced during Johannesburg to Durban flight

Gaslighting. Depressurization happens all the time.


WTF is gaslighting? I posted a example of the recent decompression on a forum discussing an AD of the same topic. I’m off to Google what gaslighting means
T6, Allouette 3, Oryx, King Air, B1900, B727, B744, A319, A342/3/6 A332/3 A359
 
B757Forever
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:22 pm

hayzel777 wrote:
par13del wrote:
So if an airline doing maintenance in the normal course of operating a Boeing a/c notice something, the first thing they will do is to notify the FAA or the vendor?

Most of the large airlines in the US have OEM representatives that work in the airline office, specifically to help with maintenance and any teething issues. They will also assist the sales team when it comes time to make orders (but that is not their main job). If any issue is discovered, they will normally let the OEM know via the on-site rep or their assigned maintenance rep.


Certain discrepancies found during maintenance require that an SDR be submitted to the FAA.

https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviatio ... O16009.pdf
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sevenair
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:53 pm

T54A wrote:
hayzel777 wrote:
T54A wrote:
https://www.google.co.za/amp/s/www.timeslive.co.za/amp/news/south-africa/2021-02-19-mayday-at-27000ft-but-117-passengers-on-mango-flight-to-durban-emerge-unscathed/

Loss of cabin pressure experienced during Johannesburg to Durban flight

Gaslighting. Depressurization happens all the time.


WTF is gaslighting? I posted a example of the recent decompression on a forum discussing an AD of the same topic. I’m off to Google what gaslighting means


It means you've said something that doesn't fit someone's opinion or agenda, so they claim you're 'gaslighting' to try diminish what you have said. Unfortunately people don't seem to be able different views to their own these days.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:09 pm

hayzel777 wrote:
par13del wrote:
So if an airline doing maintenance in the normal course of operating a Boeing a/c notice something, the first thing they will do is to notify the FAA or the vendor?

Most of the large airlines in the US have OEM representatives that work in the airline office, specifically to help with maintenance and any teething issues. They will also assist the sales team when it comes time to make orders (but that is not their main job). If any issue is discovered, they will normally let the OEM know via the on-site rep or their assigned maintenance rep.

By OEM, do you mean aircraft manufacturers? Because there are a lot of OEMs on an airplane, and only a handful of them are on-site at airlines.
 
crj900lr
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:27 am

superjeff wrote:
I think a lot of the concern here is that Boeing has never been very forthcoming about problems. I keep pointing back to the 737 rudder issues in the early 1980's, with the United 737-200 accident in Colorado Springs, and the US Air 737-300 at Pittsburg, followed by the Eastwind 737-300(?) over Trenton. I think if the Eastwind pilots hadn't been able to recover and save their airplane we might never have been aware of the problem, and we do know that one of the main reasons US Airways always favored Airbus after their accident was that Boeing tried to blame the accident on pilot error (I don't remember what they said after United). So, unfortunately, Boeing has a reputation that they will not accept blame or even admit a problem exists.




The Eastwind incident was a 737-200. Eastwind never had any -300's just the -200 and I believe 2 - 737-700's
 
kiowa
Topic Author
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:16 pm

sevenair wrote:
T54A wrote:
hayzel777 wrote:
Gaslighting. Depressurization happens all the time.


WTF is gaslighting? I posted a example of the recent decompression on a forum discussing an AD of the same topic. I’m off to Google what gaslighting means


It means you've said something that doesn't fit someone's opinion or agenda, so they claim you're 'gaslighting' to try diminish what you have said. Unfortunately people don't seem to be able different views to their own these days.



I had to research that one too. What I got out of it was that if you say something often enough, people will believe it. Kinda like politics.
 
superjeff
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:03 pm

crj900lr wrote:
superjeff wrote:
I think a lot of the concern here is that Boeing has never been very forthcoming about problems. I keep pointing back to the 737 rudder issues in the early 1980's, with the United 737-200 accident in Colorado Springs, and the US Air 737-300 at Pittsburg, followed by the Eastwind 737-300(?) over Trenton. I think if the Eastwind pilots hadn't been able to recover and save their airplane we might never have been aware of the problem, and we do know that one of the main reasons US Airways always favored Airbus after their accident was that Boeing tried to blame the accident on pilot error (I don't remember what they said after United). So, unfortunately, Boeing has a reputation that they will not accept blame or even admit a problem exists.




The Eastwind incident was a 737-200. Eastwind never had any -300's just the -200 and I believe 2 - 737-700's


You are correct, the Eastwind plane was a -200. That said, the problem appears to have been the same as on the United -200 and the US Air -300.
 
Antarius
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Re: FAA warns of 737 NG and MAX rapid decompression

Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:10 pm

kiowa wrote:
sevenair wrote:
T54A wrote:

WTF is gaslighting? I posted a example of the recent decompression on a forum discussing an AD of the same topic. I’m off to Google what gaslighting means


It means you've said something that doesn't fit someone's opinion or agenda, so they claim you're 'gaslighting' to try diminish what you have said. Unfortunately people don't seem to be able different views to their own these days.



I had to research that one too. What I got out of it was that if you say something often enough, people will believe it. Kinda like politics.


Well, pretty bad use of the word. In flight decompression doesn't happen "all the time"
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