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Vasu
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Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:11 am

Does anyone know why there are currently so many flights in/out of Stuttgart? I thought these were originally connected to the automotive industry (the TUI cargo flights to the US etc.), but now I’m also seeing carriers such as BA operating 787-10s from LHR to STR. Has Stuttgart become some sort of makeshift German cargo hub during the pandemic?
 
StTim
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:33 am

I used to fly LHR to STR regularly and the equipment used was usually A319. There weren't that many flights a day either. To move up to a 787-10 is a massive step up.
 
rutankrd
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:41 am

Uk flights are Brexit related high value extremely short lead time items including automotive and pharmaceutical items. “THREE TO FIVE DAYS” at Calais and Dover simply unacceptable!
Significant adhoc freight also gong to Liverpool and Birmingham for the same reasons.
 
Opus99
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:42 am

It’s cargo flights. It’s actually a sort of connection rotation. So the plane goes from London to Stuttgart back to London and then goes from London to Atlanta and then back to london

So I think it’s actually taking cargo from Stuttgart to Atlanta
 
chonetsao
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:43 am

Is that because of the air lift for auto parts? Since STR is a headquarter for some of the global auto giants. Maybe all the available cargo specialists are deeply involved with the vaccine transportation hence airlines like BA has to step up to provide extra capacity for auto companies? I am only guessing of course. But I can not think of other plausible explanation.
 
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LutzR
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:06 pm

These are all cargo only flights. Currently there are up to 9 of such flights a day leaving Stuttgart. Most of them carried out by TUI (UK, Netherlands and Belgium) and one or two a day by British Airways. Destinations indicate that these flights are somehow linked to the automative industry, so either operating for automakers or to suppliers. So far I noticed TUI flying to Atlanta, Detroit, Guadaljara, Greenville/Spartanburg and Johannesburg. British Airways seem to focus on Atlanta up to know. Some of the UK based planes do stopovers in the UK, either for crew exchange or just as consequence of the Brexit.
 
Noshow
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:10 pm

I heard they typically go to Manchester and then on to Detroit as far as the automotive parts cargo flights are concerned.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:29 pm

Astra Zeneca vaccine and automotive parts mostly.
 
Toinou
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:47 pm

rutankrd wrote:
Uk flights are Brexit related high value extremely short lead time items including automotive and pharmaceutical items. “THREE TO FIVE DAYS” at Calais and Dover simply unacceptable!
Significant adhoc freight also gong to Liverpool and Birmingham for the same reasons.

Do you have a source for this transit time? Not disputing, just trying to find reliable information on that issue.
 
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MoKa777
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:36 pm

LutzR wrote:
These are all cargo only flights. Currently there are up to 9 of such flights a day leaving Stuttgart. Most of them carried out by TUI (UK, Netherlands and Belgium) and one or two a day by British Airways. Destinations indicate that these flights are somehow linked to the automative industry, so either operating for automakers or to suppliers. So far I noticed TUI flying to Atlanta, Detroit, Guadaljara, Greenville/Spartanburg and Johannesburg. British Airways seem to focus on Atlanta up to know. Some of the UK based planes do stopovers in the UK, either for crew exchange or just as consequence of the Brexit.


The TUI flights to JNB have been carrying vaccines.

I am assuming that many of the other flights to the destinations you list have the same consignment.
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tonystan
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:01 pm

The BA flight is for the transportation of Mercedes parts to ATL.
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:10 pm

Noshow wrote:
I heard they typically go to Manchester and then on to Detroit as far as the automotive parts cargo flights are concerned.


Who's filling cargo flights to DTW? Most of the vehicles produced within spitting distance of DTW have pretty high US parts contents. The major exception I can think of is the Ford and FCA vehicles with ZF transmissions, but most if not all of those are built in South Carolina (FCA's 845RE is a ZF transmission, but it's built in-house at Kokomo).
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Noshow
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:13 pm

Could this be some Daimler-Chrysler left over logistics?
 
rutankrd
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:29 pm

Toinou wrote:
rutankrd wrote:
Uk flights are Brexit related high value extremely short lead time items including automotive and pharmaceutical items. “THREE TO FIVE DAYS” at Calais and Dover simply unacceptable!
Significant adhoc freight also gong to Liverpool and Birmingham for the same reasons.

Do you have a source for this transit time? Not disputing, just trying to find reliable information on that issue.


My own business ships from our factories in Badajos, Metz and Woudenberg to the UK specialist fire safety equipment . Both Metz and Woudenberg to my Kent depot were simple overnight journeys prior to January now taking as long as those from Spain to clear three days is now the norm .

Our returns to Badajos have fallen through the floor from three shipments a week , to one every nine days .

Had one shipment stuck in France for two days going to down to Badajos on a paperwork error and the carrier got fined and you can’t park overnight on French highways . Also have a trailer due to go to Italy in a couple of weeks paperwork carnet and such are a mare if we go via Switzerland.

Whilst nothing to do with aviation I am also in the mist of a product recertification programme from CE to UKCA STANDARDS at 12k plus per product at the moment .

Yea Brexit is a crop of .......
 
BENAir01
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:05 pm

I know a lot of the German car companies have been having a real shortage of supplies from the pandemic. Mercedes has been having trouble producing enough massaging seats and active electronic suspensions, and BMW has been having trouble with supplies of their ventilated seats and their high end audio system as well as some of their highest end leathers and woods. There are specifically for the Mercedes GLE/GLS, and BMW X5/X7, which are put together in Vance Alabama and Spartanburg SC respectively.
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dennypayne
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:13 pm

Atlanta is also Porsche NA headquarters and main distribution point for service parts that come from Stuttgart.
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Cubsrule
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:26 pm

dennypayne wrote:
Atlanta is also Porsche NA headquarters and main distribution point for service parts that come from Stuttgart.


Correct. And Mercedes-Benz has historically distributed a lot of Europe-origin service parts from Jacksonville. “Plant parts” can go to ATL, BHM, or TCL depending on origin and logistics.
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gdavis003
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:30 pm

The Mercedes plant in Vance, AL has been having substantial supply chain issues throughout the pandemic, from what I’ve heard. The TUI flights to ATL are bringing over parts from Germany, as there’s not much more space left on the cargo ramp at BHM to handle extra wide body cargo. You’ll also notice that BHM and TCL have had a significant influx of cargo flights via USA Jet/Aeronaves/Berry/McNeely the list goes on of charters from Mexico/LRD/ELP/YIP etc. this past week. They’re very spontaneous charters, and you’ll tend to see a lot happen at once due to an immediate supply chain issue.

TCL had multiple DC9s, E120s, and Falcon 20s on the ramp at one point this week, along with an Ameristar 737-200 for a sports charter. Quite the lineup
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:24 pm

tonystan wrote:
The BA flight is for the transportation of Mercedes parts to ATL.



Winner. This is the reason why BA 78’s are in STR.
 
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Vasu
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:11 am

Just out of interest, how were these car parts travelling before the pandemic? I don't recall there being lots of STR to US flights before...

Interesting that some of the flights out of STR are carrying vaccines too. I thought these (the Pfizer at least) were actually being manufactured in Belgium?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:33 am

To me STR to UK has to be Brexit related, it doesn't make economic sense in normal times.
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gdavis003
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:48 am

Vasu wrote:
Just out of interest, how were these car parts travelling before the pandemic? I don't recall there being lots of STR to US flights before...

Interesting that some of the flights out of STR are carrying vaccines too. I thought these (the Pfizer at least) were actually being manufactured in Belgium?


By boat for the most part, I believe. Then, those supply chains were severely disrupted. I would presume that DL was also running a lot of auto cargo on STR-ATL
 
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LutzR
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:36 am

Aesma wrote:
To me STR to UK has to be Brexit related, it doesn't make economic sense in normal times


It's interesting to see in Flightaware that TUI UK operated direct flights from Stuttgart to the US until end of 2020. Since then they are typically flying "triangles" (Stuttgart -> UK (Manchester or Gatwick) -> US -> Stuttgart), as an example: https://de.flightaware.com/live/flight/GTUIO.
TUI Belguim is still flying directly from Stuttgart to the US, so it seems that travel rights for UK based airlines have somehow changed with the Brexit.
 
planesarecool
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:46 am

MoKa777 wrote:

The TUI flights to JNB have been carrying vaccines.

I am assuming that many of the other flights to the destinations you list have the same consignment.


Negative, there was one ad-hoc flight from Brussels to Johannesburg that was carrying vaccines, the daily flights from Stuttgart are carrying car parts to Johannesburg and food back to Europe.

The LGW/MAN (and LHR in the case of BA) stopover is as a result of Brexit. U.K. companies don’t have the automatic right to fly these routes direct, but can apply for dispensation as long as no airline in the EU country of origin (or destination, if applies) objects. In this case, Lufthansa objected and hence the flights go via the U.K.
 
rutankrd
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:00 am

planesarecool wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:

The TUI flights to JNB have been carrying vaccines.

I am assuming that many of the other flights to the destinations you list have the same consignment.


Negative, there was one ad-hoc flight from Brussels to Johannesburg that was carrying vaccines, the daily flights from Stuttgart are carrying car parts to Johannesburg and food back to Europe.

The LGW/MAN (and LHR in the case of BA) stopover is as a result of Brexit. U.K. companies don’t have the automatic right to fly these routes direct, but can apply for dispensation as long as no airline in the EU country of origin (or destination, if applies) objects. In this case, Lufthansa objected and hence the flights go via the U.K.


There is a get of jail card for TUI Group and its operating as a subcontractor to the other group carriers in Germany and Belgium, however it’s the crewing of them as TUI in Germany aren’t 787 rated at the moment

UK carriers can apply to operate point to point charters from EU to other states however have lost the automatic rights under openskys and the EU single market rules for non dom scheduled services . Similar provisions with Israel and Morocco have also be forfeited is my understanding
 
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:02 am

TUGMASTER wrote:
tonystan wrote:
The BA flight is for the transportation of Mercedes parts to ATL.



Winner. This is the reason why BA 78’s are in STR.


BA also operated a 77W in ATL on the 26th with nothing but diesel engines. Close to 30 crates came off the aircraft bound for Alabama.
 
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MoKa777
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:26 am

planesarecool wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:

The TUI flights to JNB have been carrying vaccines.

I am assuming that many of the other flights to the destinations you list have the same consignment.


Negative, there was one ad-hoc flight from Brussels to Johannesburg that was carrying vaccines, the daily flights from Stuttgart are carrying car parts to Johannesburg and food back to Europe.

The LGW/MAN (and LHR in the case of BA) stopover is as a result of Brexit. U.K. companies don’t have the automatic right to fly these routes direct, but can apply for dispensation as long as no airline in the EU country of origin (or destination, if applies) objects. In this case, Lufthansa objected and hence the flights go via the U.K.


I stand corrected. Thank you for the clarification.
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planesarecool
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:26 pm

rutankrd wrote:
planesarecool wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:

The TUI flights to JNB have been carrying vaccines.

I am assuming that many of the other flights to the destinations you list have the same consignment.


Negative, there was one ad-hoc flight from Brussels to Johannesburg that was carrying vaccines, the daily flights from Stuttgart are carrying car parts to Johannesburg and food back to Europe.

The LGW/MAN (and LHR in the case of BA) stopover is as a result of Brexit. U.K. companies don’t have the automatic right to fly these routes direct, but can apply for dispensation as long as no airline in the EU country of origin (or destination, if applies) objects. In this case, Lufthansa objected and hence the flights go via the U.K.


There is a get of jail card for TUI Group and its operating as a subcontractor to the other group carriers in Germany and Belgium, however it’s the crewing of them as TUI in Germany aren’t 787 rated at the moment

UK carriers can apply to operate point to point charters from EU to other states however have lost the automatic rights under openskys and the EU single market rules for non dom scheduled services . Similar provisions with Israel and Morocco have also be forfeited is my understanding



They wouldn't need German 787 rated crew as TUI NL or BE could operate Germany-USA direct and have plenty of 787 rated pilots. TUI NL and BE are taking part in the cargo operation and do operate direct with their own aircraft. However I understand these freight contracts are only signed on a short term basis, no further than a month ahead. The UK tour operator is expecting these aircraft to be available to operate a full UK schedule this Summer.

As it is, the flights are providing sectors to keep crew current and will reduce the training bottleneck for whenever a meaningful restart of passenger operations becomes likely.
 
sevenair
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:31 pm

rutankrd wrote:
Toinou wrote:
rutankrd wrote:
Uk flights are Brexit related high value extremely short lead time items including automotive and pharmaceutical items. “THREE TO FIVE DAYS” at Calais and Dover simply unacceptable!
Significant adhoc freight also gong to Liverpool and Birmingham for the same reasons.

Do you have a source for this transit time? Not disputing, just trying to find reliable information on that issue.


My own business ships from our factories in Badajos, Metz and Woudenberg to the UK specialist fire safety equipment . Both Metz and Woudenberg to my Kent depot were simple overnight journeys prior to January now taking as long as those from Spain to clear three days is now the norm .

Our returns to Badajos have fallen through the floor from three shipments a week , to one every nine days .

Had one shipment stuck in France for two days going to down to Badajos on a paperwork error and the carrier got fined and you can’t park overnight on French highways . Also have a trailer due to go to Italy in a couple of weeks paperwork carnet and such are a mare if we go via Switzerland.

Whilst nothing to do with aviation I am also in the mist of a product recertification programme from CE to UKCA STANDARDS at 12k plus per product at the moment .

Yea Brexit is a crop of .......


Funny. Since January I've had products from Portugal France and Belgium all arrive no problem. Seems companies run by remainers seem to have the biggest problems. Could it be because their arrogance and confidence that brexit would be reversed be behind their lack of preparation? I mean why bother preparing for something when you're confident it wont happen?
 
lhrnue
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:52 pm

sevenair wrote:
Funny. Since January I've had products from Portugal France and Belgium all arrive no problem. Seems companies run by remainers seem to have the biggest problems. Could it be because their arrogance and confidence that brexit would be reversed be behind their lack of preparation? I mean why bother preparing for something when you're confident it wont happen?


The most stupid comment ever posted on this forum.
 
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moddin
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:48 pm

TUI UK is now also operating from MUC to DTW via LGW and GSP via MAN. DTW seems to be parts by Daimler, GSP by BMW.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:04 pm

gdavis003 wrote:
Vasu wrote:
Just out of interest, how were these car parts travelling before the pandemic? I don't recall there being lots of STR to US flights before...

Interesting that some of the flights out of STR are carrying vaccines too. I thought these (the Pfizer at least) were actually being manufactured in Belgium?


By boat for the most part, I believe. Then, those supply chains were severely disrupted. I would presume that DL was also running a lot of auto cargo on STR-ATL


Quite right, US<-->Europe flow was by boat, UK-Continental Europe was by truck and van, often timed to the hour (Just-in-Time, JIT).

Disruption: in 2020, when COVID fallout stopped a lot of car assembly and other businesses, there appeared a consensus in purchasing and logistics communities, apparently -- "we are in this for a long haul, our companies are hurting, ergo let's help out and reduce stocks, freeing capital".
They were at it, depending on where, for months. They looked like geniuses, and many collected fat bonuses for liberating a bunch of capital from those dusty shelves.
No more. The supply chains are empty, there's a shortage of almost everything (I jest. But in my sector, there is really no business of note that is reasonably long stuff. Everything is short.
On UK-EU trade, JIT is no longer feasible with surface transport. You cannot forecast customs bureaucracy reliably enough, to fit JIT criteria.

So, stuff flies.
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RDUDDJI
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:37 am

Automotive companies are my customers. Supply chains are still not quite right. The biggest issue at the moment is chips for their onboard computers (ECUs, Screens, airbag controllers, seat controls, etc.) Just about every one of our customers has taken downtime this year due to chip shortages and it’s expected to last for at least the rest of this year. GM has already stated publicly it will cost them billions in lost revenue this year. Ford’s CEO has said that they’re looking into making chips in the US so they’re not so dependent on mostly Asian countries for these critical components. Others are not saying much, but it’s hurting them too.

To the poster who asked above, usually they receive almost everything from sub suppliers that are very close to the plant (sometimes on the same campus). Those Tier 1 suppliers handle the logistics and assemblies of sub assemblies. They usually get their stuff via boat. It’s gotta cost a fortune to ship engines via air. A boat from Europe to US + ground time can easily be two weeks or more. BMW has been considering building an engine plant in the US, but they haven’t pulled the trigger yet. Spartanburg was supposed to get another line, but because of the Trump tariffs, they built that line in China, which has also hurt the business case for a US engine plant.
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:53 am

MoKa777 wrote:
LutzR wrote:
These are all cargo only flights. Currently there are up to 9 of such flights a day leaving Stuttgart. Most of them carried out by TUI (UK, Netherlands and Belgium) and one or two a day by British Airways. Destinations indicate that these flights are somehow linked to the automative industry, so either operating for automakers or to suppliers. So far I noticed TUI flying to Atlanta, Detroit, Guadaljara, Greenville/Spartanburg and Johannesburg. British Airways seem to focus on Atlanta up to know. Some of the UK based planes do stopovers in the UK, either for crew exchange or just as consequence of the Brexit.


The TUI flights to JNB have been carrying vaccines.

I am assuming that many of the other flights to the destinations you list have the same consignment.


A TUI Fly Belgium 789 was seen at GRU today.
Vaccine transportation as well?
 
planesarecool
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:46 am

ojjunior wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
LutzR wrote:
These are all cargo only flights. Currently there are up to 9 of such flights a day leaving Stuttgart. Most of them carried out by TUI (UK, Netherlands and Belgium) and one or two a day by British Airways. Destinations indicate that these flights are somehow linked to the automative industry, so either operating for automakers or to suppliers. So far I noticed TUI flying to Atlanta, Detroit, Guadaljara, Greenville/Spartanburg and Johannesburg. British Airways seem to focus on Atlanta up to know. Some of the UK based planes do stopovers in the UK, either for crew exchange or just as consequence of the Brexit.


The TUI flights to JNB have been carrying vaccines.

I am assuming that many of the other flights to the destinations you list have the same consignment.


A TUI Fly Belgium 789 was seen at GRU today.
Vaccine transportation as well?


Yes. I think the general rule at the moment is if it came from Brussels, on a Belgian registered TUI aircraft and was a one off flight, it’s vaccines.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:06 am

With this in mind, seems sorta odd that DL didn't continue to run the nonstop, no?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
mxaxai
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:14 am

gdavis003 wrote:
Vasu wrote:
Just out of interest, how were these car parts travelling before the pandemic? I don't recall there being lots of STR to US flights before...

Interesting that some of the flights out of STR are carrying vaccines too. I thought these (the Pfizer at least) were actually being manufactured in Belgium?


By boat for the most part, I believe. Then, those supply chains were severely disrupted. I would presume that DL was also running a lot of auto cargo on STR-ATL

DL used to carry about 40 - 200 t of cargo each way, per month, when they flew ATL-STR. Typically around 80 - 120 t, sometimes more, sometimes less.

I never looked into the cargo composition, though.

The captain of one of the TUI flights stated that they had a load of 32 t in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTn5godh6FY. Given that there are multiple daily such flights, it appears that the volume of air cargo has gone up significantly.

LAX772LR wrote:
With this in mind, seems sorta odd that DL didn't continue to run the nonstop, no?

Could be that they can't compete with TUI? One should also remember that DL discontinued the route in April 2020 and TUI didn't start these flights until late November. DL still has STR scheduled for the upcoming summer season, though.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:20 am

sevenair wrote:
rutankrd wrote:
Toinou wrote:
Do you have a source for this transit time? Not disputing, just trying to find reliable information on that issue.


My own business ships from our factories in Badajos, Metz and Woudenberg to the UK specialist fire safety equipment . Both Metz and Woudenberg to my Kent depot were simple overnight journeys prior to January now taking as long as those from Spain to clear three days is now the norm .

Our returns to Badajos have fallen through the floor from three shipments a week , to one every nine days .

Had one shipment stuck in France for two days going to down to Badajos on a paperwork error and the carrier got fined and you can’t park overnight on French highways . Also have a trailer due to go to Italy in a couple of weeks paperwork carnet and such are a mare if we go via Switzerland.

Whilst nothing to do with aviation I am also in the mist of a product recertification programme from CE to UKCA STANDARDS at 12k plus per product at the moment .

Yea Brexit is a crop of .......


Funny. Since January I've had products from Portugal France and Belgium all arrive no problem. Seems companies run by remainers seem to have the biggest problems. Could it be because their arrogance and confidence that brexit would be reversed be behind their lack of preparation? I mean why bother preparing for something when you're confident it wont happen?


You're talking about products entering the UK from the EU. The UK is so unprepared that for now these aren't checked at all, so it's no surprise there is no major issue importing stuff. Exporting is another story.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
sevenair
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Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:24 am

Aesma wrote:
sevenair wrote:
rutankrd wrote:

My own business ships from our factories in Badajos, Metz and Woudenberg to the UK specialist fire safety equipment . Both Metz and Woudenberg to my Kent depot were simple overnight journeys prior to January now taking as long as those from Spain to clear three days is now the norm .

Our returns to Badajos have fallen through the floor from three shipments a week , to one every nine days .

Had one shipment stuck in France for two days going to down to Badajos on a paperwork error and the carrier got fined and you can’t park overnight on French highways . Also have a trailer due to go to Italy in a couple of weeks paperwork carnet and such are a mare if we go via Switzerland.

Whilst nothing to do with aviation I am also in the mist of a product recertification programme from CE to UKCA STANDARDS at 12k plus per product at the moment .

Yea Brexit is a crop of .......


Funny. Since January I've had products from Portugal France and Belgium all arrive no problem. Seems companies run by remainers seem to have the biggest problems. Could it be because their arrogance and confidence that brexit would be reversed be behind their lack of preparation? I mean why bother preparing for something when you're confident it wont happen?


You're talking about products entering the UK from the EU. The UK is so unprepared that for now these aren't checked at all, so it's no surprise there is no major issue importing stuff. Exporting is another story.


That's the new global Britain for you. We are all about free trade, sovereignty and openness. We can't say the same about our EUropean friends unfortunately. Funny how these flights are going to all kinds of place, but when it's to the UK it is 'because of Brexit'.
 
User avatar
GCT64
Posts: 1898
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:33 am

Aesma wrote:
To me STR to UK has to be Brexit related, it doesn't make economic sense in normal times.


It's not Brexit related, as has been explained.

BA is doing JNB-LHR-STR with car parts and STR-LHR-ATL with car parts. Nothing to do with Brexit.
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
factsonly
Posts: 3085
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:46 pm

GCT64 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
To me STR to UK has to be Brexit related, it doesn't make economic sense in normal times.


It's not Brexit related, as has been explained.

BA is doing JNB-LHR-STR with car parts and STR-LHR-ATL with car parts. Nothing to do with Brexit.


Sorry GCT64 ..... this is ABSOLUTELY BREXIT related !!!!!

All UK airlines have lost their traffic rights to operate direct commercial services between the EU and third countries, such as EU-USA, EU-South Africa, etc, etc..
So while previously BA would have been able to operate STR-ATL non-stop, and STR-JNB non-stop, this is no longer the case.
Remember BA used these EU traffic rights through its B757 daughter company, appropriately named 'Open Skies', operating ORY-JFK and AMS-JFK.
UK carriers lost direct EU-third nation traffic rights due to BREXIT !!

So....for BA to overcome this loss of open skies traffic rights, BA chooses to operate LHR-STR-LHR followed by LHR-ATL-LHR.
This is however a more expensive operation, thus less competitive versus EU carriers, as correctly stated by Aesma.
As EU carriers TUI Netherlands B787s and TUI Belgium B787s are operating non-stop STR-USA services.

A similar BREXIT example was the SAS A330-300 freighter operation BRU-BHX in January 2021.
SAS, a Scandinavian carrier, was able to operate 2x daily Belgium-UK freighter services, as it is an EU carrier operating between EU-UK.
Though BA can operate from the UK to any EU nation, it can no longer do what SAS did and operate between the EU and third countries.
BA also lost its traffic rights to operate between any two EU nations.
 
planesarecool
Posts: 3262
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:21 pm

Only thing I’d add to that is that they’ve lost the automatic right to operate these routes, but can apply to the authority in the country of origin (or destination, if applicable) to operate these routes directly. If the country authority approves the operation, it then goes to existing cargo operators from that nation to approve or object. In the case of the ex-Germany flights, Lufthansa Cargo objected to the flights.

A TUI U.K. 787 operated directly from Amsterdam to Greenville yesterday, as this operation was approved by both the authorities and the Dutch airlines.
 
dairbus
Posts: 520
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:45 am

Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:44 pm

My BIL works on the ramp in ATL. The south cargo ramp is at capacity today. Lots off different tails including a TUI 789 which operated STR-LGW-ATL yesterday as mentioned upthread.
"I love mankind. It's people I can't stand." - Charles Shultz
 
TUGMASTER
Posts: 1297
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:15 pm

factsonly wrote:
GCT64 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
To me STR to UK has to be Brexit related, it doesn't make economic sense in normal times.


It's not Brexit related, as has been explained.

BA is doing JNB-LHR-STR with car parts and STR-LHR-ATL with car parts. Nothing to do with Brexit.


Sorry GCT64 ..... this is ABSOLUTELY BREXIT related !!!!!

All UK airlines have lost their traffic rights to operate direct commercial services between the EU and third countries, such as EU-USA, EU-South Africa, etc, etc..
So while previously BA would have been able to operate STR-ATL non-stop, and STR-JNB non-stop, this is no longer the case.
Remember BA used these EU traffic rights through its B757 daughter company, appropriately named 'Open Skies', operating ORY-JFK and AMS-JFK.
UK carriers lost direct EU-third nation traffic rights due to BREXIT !!

So....for BA to overcome this loss of open skies traffic rights, BA chooses to operate LHR-STR-LHR followed by LHR-ATL-LHR.
This is however a more expensive operation, thus less competitive versus EU carriers, as correctly stated by Aesma.
As EU carriers TUI Netherlands B787s and TUI Belgium B787s are operating non-stop STR-USA services.

A similar BREXIT example was the SAS A330-300 freighter operation BRU-BHX in January 2021.
SAS, a Scandinavian carrier, was able to operate 2x daily Belgium-UK freighter services, as it is an EU carrier operating between EU-UK.
Though BA can operate from the UK to any EU nation, it can no longer do what SAS did and operate between the EU and third countries.
BA also lost its traffic rights to operate between any two EU nations.


What a load of nonsense factsonly ...

BA never operated STR-JNB or ATL direct prior to this freight contract.And its run by IAG cargo, as are all the IAG airline operated flights, so they could of used IB aircraft if they wanted too.
As for the TUI flights , these are using UK registered aircraft via LGW to keep crews current.

Think the Mods should be looking at you and your username for breach of contract .
Factsonly.... lol
 
factsonly
Posts: 3085
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:23 am

TUGMASTER wrote:
factsonly wrote:
GCT64 wrote:

It's not Brexit related, as has been explained.

BA is doing JNB-LHR-STR with car parts and STR-LHR-ATL with car parts. Nothing to do with Brexit.


Sorry GCT64 ..... this is ABSOLUTELY BREXIT related !!!!!

All UK airlines have lost their traffic rights to operate direct commercial services between the EU and third countries, such as EU-USA, EU-South Africa, etc, etc..
So while previously BA would have been able to operate STR-ATL non-stop, and STR-JNB non-stop, this is no longer the case.
Remember BA used these EU traffic rights through its B757 daughter company, appropriately named 'Open Skies', operating ORY-JFK and AMS-JFK.
UK carriers lost direct EU-third nation traffic rights due to BREXIT !!

So....for BA to overcome this loss of open skies traffic rights, BA chooses to operate LHR-STR-LHR followed by LHR-ATL-LHR.
This is however a more expensive operation, thus less competitive versus EU carriers, as correctly stated by Aesma.
As EU carriers TUI Netherlands B787s and TUI Belgium B787s are operating non-stop STR-USA services.

A similar BREXIT example was the SAS A330-300 freighter operation BRU-BHX in January 2021.
SAS, a Scandinavian carrier, was able to operate 2x daily Belgium-UK freighter services, as it is an EU carrier operating between EU-UK.
Though BA can operate from the UK to any EU nation, it can no longer do what SAS did and operate between the EU and third countries.
BA also lost its traffic rights to operate between any two EU nations.


What a load of nonsense factsonly ...

BA never operated STR-JNB or ATL direct prior to this freight contract.And its run by IAG cargo, as are all the IAG airline operated flights, so they could of used IB aircraft if they wanted too.
As for the TUI flights , these are using UK registered aircraft via LGW to keep crews current.

Think the Mods should be looking at you and your username for breach of contract .
Factsonly.... lol


Dear TUGMASTER,

Your excited response highlights to everyone that the finer details of my post seem to be lost on you:

1. Please read the post carefully, as I never stated that BA operated STR-JNB or STR-ATL.
2. I stated that the UK's membership of the EU gave BA air traffic rights to operate from any EU state to third countries. The UK airlines have lost these traffic rights due to BREXIT.
3. IAG Cargo may be the contractual party, but they are not the operating airline. The STR-LHR-ATL and STR-LHR-JNB routings are operated on BA's AOC and designed to stay within the UK's air traffic rights.
4. Your TUI example only highlights my very point. TUI operates STR-LGW-USA precisely to meet the UK's more restrictive air traffic rights ex-EU. Though 'Planesarecool' highlights this can be overcome.
5. "Keeping crews current" sounds very much like the convenient Brexiteer excuse, for the new commercial reality of the UK airlines.

But......many thanks for your most interesting response.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2503
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:35 am

It is true that BA and TUI UK have to stop in the UK on flights from the EU to the US due to Brexit.

It is also true that operational reasons require these stops. Neither TUI nor BA have a 787 crew or maintenance base in Germany.

When the flights started in late November, when TUI UK still had traffic rights to fly nonstop, they'd fly LGW-STR-ATL-LGW. Now they're flying (STR-)LGW-ATL-STR. The only change is that they used to fly the EU->US leg nonstop and now they're flying the US->EU leg nonstop.

The only exception I've seen so far is TUI (Netherlands) flying STR-JNB and back for several days in a row, without touching their AMS home base. I assume this is made possible by leaving the aircraft on the ground for long enough to let the crews rest. The transatlantic routings usually have a tighter schedule.
 
rutankrd
Posts: 3072
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:32 pm

lhrnue wrote:
sevenair wrote:
Funny. Since January I've had products from Portugal France and Belgium all arrive no problem. Seems companies run by remainers seem to have the biggest problems. Could it be because their arrogance and confidence that brexit would be reversed be behind their lack of preparation? I mean why bother preparing for something when you're confident it wont happen?


The most stupid comment ever posted on this forum.


Oh we prepared, I am opening a €142,000 office in Dublin from June . Investment I would have made in new products FIRE CURTAINS for home and commercial buildings including open plan kitchen spaces but not now.
Our trade body and the government departments only confirmed what domestic UKCA safety standards would apply in November ! Yet were scheduled for implementation in January; Saving grace six months to assess every product to an even now unclarified set of standards and full implementation January 2022.
Each set of assessment in the region of £12k per product -More unnecessary spend (I contributed to the EU directives in the first place)

And Sevens comment about receiving product from Portugal, France and Spain isn’t evidence . I also said products arrive however much delayed compared to prior 2021 and all my products are safety critical. I evidenced delays were leaving the UK and I have factory right in the middle of Kent yet still need a Kent access permit to export ludicrous!

All compounded by domestic French regulations on 7.5 + trucks , no parking overnight etc.......

Still none of that’s directly aviation related .

I
 
planesarecool
Posts: 3262
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:15 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:

As for the TUI flights , these are using UK registered aircraft via LGW to keep crews current.


Incorrect. They’re operating via the U.K. because they have to, as explained many times on this thread. Keeping crews current (or more accurately, bringing more crew back from months on the ground), as well as keeping aircraft active, is a useful consequence, but doesn’t cover the increased cost of the operation.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2503
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Why are there now so many flights to Stuttgart?

Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:58 pm

If anyone's interested, STR saw an increase in cargo volume by 81% in Jan 2021, compared to Jan 2020. https://www.adv.aero/wp-content/uploads ... tistik.pdf

The first TUI cargo flight in 2021 was on Jan 8th. BA started their cargo ops on Jan 13th.

Total cargo: 4,833 t (+82%)
Outbound: 3,719 t (+167%)
Inbound: 1,114 t (-11%)

For comparison, this is approx. 50% of the cargo traffic at MUC, and 2.7% of the traffic at FRA.

Top 5 cargo airports in Germany:
FRA 173,374 t (+18.2%)
LEJ 120,397 t (+25.5%)
HHN 17,015 t (+86.9%)
MUC 9,304 t (-64.1%)
STR 4,833 t (+82.4%)

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