Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 11846
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:03 pm

Air Niugini planning on resuming POM-SYD, 1 weekly 738 from 29 Mar 21

https://twitter.com/theaeronetwork/stat ... 72840?s=20
Forum Moderator
 
NZ516
Posts: 669
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:29 pm

Gemuser wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
I don't recall that. Is it possible that these were codeshares on AN aircraft? At the time NZ owned 50% of AN.

No, the NZ fifth freedom rights were older than that, they went back to the early 1970s, at least, quite possabily back to the 1960s

Gemuser


Back in 1966 Air NZ started a weekly AKL SYD HKG BNE AKL service using their new Dc8s. Sometimes it made a refuelling stop at MNL Depending on conditions.
 
aschachter
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:37 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:27 pm

qf789 wrote:
Qantas SIN-LHR not available for reservation after 31 Oct 21, so perhaps SYD LHR service will operate via PER if they resume then

https://twitter.com/theaeronetwork/stat ... 91042?s=20


Maybe with COVID restrictions, it may fly PER - LHR or even DRW - LHR as it did with the A380s before QF ceased international flying in 2020 for COVID
 
User avatar
CraigAnderson
Posts: 707
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:28 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:14 pm

aschachter wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Qantas SIN-LHR not available for reservation after 31 Oct 21, so perhaps SYD LHR service will operate via PER if they resume then

https://twitter.com/theaeronetwork/stat ... 91042?s=20


Maybe with COVID restrictions, it may fly PER - LHR or even DRW - LHR as it did with the A380s before QF ceased international flying in 2020 for COVID


I think it's more a matter of there being insufficient AU-UK demand at the 'restart' to support two daily services, so QF will settle on PER-LHR as the sole daily London flight as this also is said to be more profitable for the airline compared to that SIN stopover. AU-SIN will of course remain as a popular route and we could even see those flights resume sooner if the weekend news on that AU-SIN travel bubble and SIN being used as a quarantine gateway come to pass.

In the meantime cutting off the SIN-LHR leg will also give QF back the equivalent of, what, 2 x Boeing 787-9 frames per day? QF would certainly have plans on how it can use these to better effect and higher revenue, eg Asia.
 
User avatar
CraigAnderson
Posts: 707
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:28 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:17 pm

Virgin Australia said to be making major sponsorship announcement with AFL this morning. The AFL was one of the biggest and most expensive sponsorships from the Borghetti era, along with V8 Supercars and then a strange collection of others like Melbourne Fashion Week and the Australian Chamber Orchestra. Bain was expected to drop all of those in the name of cost-cutting but it makes sense to keep AFL, very high-profile and good for the 'mass market', although I'm sure Bain said to AFL that it can't afford more than $X million, take it or leave it.
 
User avatar
CraigAnderson
Posts: 707
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:28 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:49 pm

Rex is now shopping around for two additional B737s on top of the six it'll have by end of this month, and also new cities to fly those B737s to.

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... stinations
 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 11846
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:08 am

Qantas to launch MEL-NTL, 12 weekly services operated by 717 aircraft

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... melbourne/
Forum Moderator
 
tullamarine
Posts: 2796
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:56 am

qf789 wrote:
Qantas to launch MEL-NTL, 12 weekly services operated by 717 aircraft

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... melbourne/

Given this appears to be in addition to the existing JQ services, this is a large boost in capacity. VA also operate the route already.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
aschachter
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:37 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:28 am

qf789 wrote:
Qantas to launch MEL-NTL, 12 weekly services operated by 717 aircraft

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... melbourne/


Another reason , may be that they are also picking up capacity with Tiger (I know they haven't flown since 2020) no longer in the market..

I am interested to see what happens to the fares....
 
User avatar
CraigAnderson
Posts: 707
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:28 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:22 am

"Virgin Australia will continue to be the official airline partner of the AFL and AFLW until 2025 in an agreement announced today."

"The five-year deal will see Virgin Australia continue to fly the league’s 32 teams including players, coaches and support staff to interstate matches, making it one of the largest airline sponsorships of any team sport in the country."

Virgin also extending sponsorship deals with Carlton and the Gold Coast Suns. Interesting to see the Suns in there, as this was Paul Scurrah's 'religion', he was a Suns mega fan and is on the board.

https://newsroom.virginaustralia.com/re ... artnership


To celebrate the announcement, Virgin Australia showcased its signature flair at Melbourne Airport this morning, with Jayne Hrdlicka and Carlton and Richmond captain’s Sam Docherty and Trent Cotchin, alongside AFLW players Izzy Huntington (Western Bulldogs) and Kaitlyn Ashmore (North Melbourne Kangaroos), checking-in fans and giving away free flights and tickets to away games.

Virgin Australia has been the official airline partner of the AFL since 2011, transporting players, coaches, league officials and support staff on more than 4,000 flights (or 144,000 seats), carrying more than 2,600 tonnes in club cargo in that time, while sharing the magic of the game all over the country.

https://newsroom.virginaustralia.com/re ... artnership
 
User avatar
SCFlyer
Posts: 708
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:40 am

CraigAnderson wrote:
Virgin Australia said to be making major sponsorship announcement with AFL this morning. The AFL was one of the biggest and most expensive sponsorships from the Borghetti era, along with V8 Supercars and then a strange collection of others like Melbourne Fashion Week and the Australian Chamber Orchestra. Bain was expected to drop all of those in the name of cost-cutting but it makes sense to keep AFL, very high-profile and good for the 'mass market', although I'm sure Bain said to AFL that it can't afford more than $X million, take it or leave it.


Kind of makes sense to keep the AFL sponsorship. Would be one of the few (if not only) sponsorships from the VA stable that would meet Bain's (and PE firms in general) primary aim of making a 'return on investment'.
 
zkncj
Posts: 4218
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:02 am

CraigAnderson wrote:
Rex is now shopping around for two additional B737s on top of the six it'll have by end of this month, and also new cities to fly those B737s to.

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... stinations


If ZL doesn’t manage to pickup anymore ex VA 738s, they are going to get an very mixed bag when it comes to onboard hard product very fast.

Unless they are planning to re-fit the ex VA 738s at some point in the near future.
 
aschachter
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:37 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:11 am

CraigAnderson wrote:
"Virgin Australia will continue to be the official airline partner of the AFL and AFLW until 2025 in an agreement announced today."

"The five-year deal will see Virgin Australia continue to fly the league’s 32 teams including players, coaches and support staff to interstate matches, making it one of the largest airline sponsorships of any team sport in the country."

Virgin also extending sponsorship deals with Carlton and the Gold Coast Suns. Interesting to see the Suns in there, as this was Paul Scurrah's 'religion', he was a Suns mega fan and is on the board.

https://newsroom.virginaustralia.com/re ... artnership


To celebrate the announcement, Virgin Australia showcased its signature flair at Melbourne Airport this morning, with Jayne Hrdlicka and Carlton and Richmond captain’s Sam Docherty and Trent Cotchin, alongside AFLW players Izzy Huntington (Western Bulldogs) and Kaitlyn Ashmore (North Melbourne Kangaroos), checking-in fans and giving away free flights and tickets to away games.

Virgin Australia has been the official airline partner of the AFL since 2011, transporting players, coaches, league officials and support staff on more than 4,000 flights (or 144,000 seats), carrying more than 2,600 tonnes in club cargo in that time, while sharing the magic of the game all over the country.

https://newsroom.virginaustralia.com/re ... artnership


Interesting to see how this works going forward with VA not operating A330s anymore.
I am not sure how the Dockers and Eagles will like flying , especially their taller players, from Perth to the east coast on a 737...

Also, my question is, whether QF got a look in at this, the contract just rolled over or weren't interested
 
User avatar
SCFlyer
Posts: 708
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:22 am

aschachter wrote:
Interesting to see how this works going forward with VA not operating A330s anymore.
I am not sure how the Dockers and Eagles will like flying , especially their taller players, from Perth to the east coast on a 737...

Also, my question is, whether QF got a look in at this, the contract just rolled over or weren't interested


Chartering VARA's (ex-Tiger, ex-Skywest) A320 fleet?
 
DavidByrne
Posts: 1867
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:42 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:28 am

NZ516 wrote:
Back in 1966 Air NZ started a weekly AKL SYD HKG BNE AKL service using their new Dc8s. Sometimes it made a refuelling stop at MNL Depending on conditions.

It was actually AKL-SYD-HKG-BNE-SYD-AKL. Not sure why the BNE stop was added on the return leg. Surely not a range issue with the DC8?
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
tullamarine
Posts: 2796
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:29 am

aschachter wrote:
CraigAnderson wrote:
"Virgin Australia will continue to be the official airline partner of the AFL and AFLW until 2025 in an agreement announced today."

"The five-year deal will see Virgin Australia continue to fly the league’s 32 teams including players, coaches and support staff to interstate matches, making it one of the largest airline sponsorships of any team sport in the country."

Virgin also extending sponsorship deals with Carlton and the Gold Coast Suns. Interesting to see the Suns in there, as this was Paul Scurrah's 'religion', he was a Suns mega fan and is on the board.

https://newsroom.virginaustralia.com/re ... artnership


To celebrate the announcement, Virgin Australia showcased its signature flair at Melbourne Airport this morning, with Jayne Hrdlicka and Carlton and Richmond captain’s Sam Docherty and Trent Cotchin, alongside AFLW players Izzy Huntington (Western Bulldogs) and Kaitlyn Ashmore (North Melbourne Kangaroos), checking-in fans and giving away free flights and tickets to away games.

Virgin Australia has been the official airline partner of the AFL since 2011, transporting players, coaches, league officials and support staff on more than 4,000 flights (or 144,000 seats), carrying more than 2,600 tonnes in club cargo in that time, while sharing the magic of the game all over the country.

https://newsroom.virginaustralia.com/re ... artnership


Interesting to see how this works going forward with VA not operating A330s anymore.
I am not sure how the Dockers and Eagles will like flying , especially their taller players, from Perth to the east coast on a 737...

Also, my question is, whether QF got a look in at this, the contract just rolled over or weren't interested

Last year, all flights for AFL were on 737s as domestic was otherwise basically shut and bubble meant all flights had to be charters. Even when the A330s operated in prior years, most of the team was still in Y or Y+.

I think QF would've been interested but AFL have been pretty clear that they want an almost exclusive arrangement. QF couldn't have AFL as well as NRL and ARU.

Interestingly, chairman of AFL Richard Goyder is also chairman of Qantas but, I assume like last time, he excluded himself from meeting whilst this matter was discussed.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
User avatar
CraigAnderson
Posts: 707
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:28 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:02 am

tullamarine wrote:
I think QF would've been interested but AFL have been pretty clear that they want an almost exclusive arrangement. QF couldn't have AFL as well as NRL and ARU.
Interestingly, chairman of AFL Richard Goyder is also chairman of Qantas but, I assume like last time, he excluded himself from meeting whilst this matter was discussed.


I didn't know about either of those points, makes sense though. But hard to imagine Goyder as AFL chairman being totally out of the loop on this, but then not much that Qantas can do with the info is there?
 
User avatar
CraigAnderson
Posts: 707
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:28 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:07 am

zkncj wrote:
CraigAnderson wrote:
Rex is now shopping around for two additional B737s on top of the six it'll have by end of this month, and also new cities to fly those B737s to.

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... stinations


If ZL doesn’t manage to pickup anymore ex VA 738s, they are going to get an very mixed bag when it comes to onboard hard product very fast.

Unless they are planning to re-fit the ex VA 738s at some point in the near future.


They'd pretty much HAVE to be ex-VA B737s but it's not as if those are scarce, I think Virgin handed back dozens of B737s? Rex are probably dealing with one of the larger lessors who had a lot of B737s leased to Virgin and Rex's first ones would be just part of that fleet. Rex could also grab the ex-Tiger B737s which were all-Y and dedicate those to a price-sensitive leisure route but the downside is they could not be used on other routes without mucking up the product consistency and booking system, and if you had to sub one for a J+Y B737 which went tech then the business class passengers would not be happy!
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8668
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:16 am

CraigAnderson wrote:
zkncj wrote:
CraigAnderson wrote:
Rex is now shopping around for two additional B737s on top of the six it'll have by end of this month, and also new cities to fly those B737s to.

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... stinations


If ZL doesn’t manage to pickup anymore ex VA 738s, they are going to get an very mixed bag when it comes to onboard hard product very fast.

Unless they are planning to re-fit the ex VA 738s at some point in the near future.


They'd pretty much HAVE to be ex-VA B737s but it's not as if those are scarce, I think Virgin handed back dozens of B737s? Rex are probably dealing with one of the larger lessors who had a lot of B737s leased to Virgin and Rex's first ones would be just part of that fleet. Rex could also grab the ex-Tiger B737s which were all-Y and dedicate those to a price-sensitive leisure route but the downside is they could not be used on other routes without mucking up the product consistency and booking system, and if you had to sub one for a J+Y B737 which went tech then the business class passengers would not be happy!


2 of the Tigerair 737s (VUX and YVA) have returned to VA and been refitted with the standard 2 class interior. Presumably the other four were returned to lessors?
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 3035
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:48 am

DavidByrne wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
Back in 1966 Air NZ started a weekly AKL SYD HKG BNE AKL service using their new Dc8s. Sometimes it made a refuelling stop at MNL Depending on conditions.

It was actually AKL-SYD-HKG-BNE-SYD-AKL. Not sure why the BNE stop was added on the return leg. Surely not a range issue with the DC8?


Could have been a pax demand issue- not enough population for a HKG-AKL nonstop back then. I think there were also some SIN flights via SYD too.
 
NZ516
Posts: 669
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:41 pm

eta unknown wrote:
DavidByrne wrote:
NZ516 wrote:
Back in 1966 Air NZ started a weekly AKL SYD HKG BNE AKL service using their new Dc8s. Sometimes it made a refuelling stop at MNL Depending on conditions.

It was actually AKL-SYD-HKG-BNE-SYD-AKL. Not sure why the BNE stop was added on the return leg. Surely not a range issue with the DC8?


Could have been a pax demand issue- not enough population for a HKG-AKL nonstop back then. I think there were also some SIN flights via SYD too.


Correct from the 68 online timetable NZ flew AKL SYD SIN twice a week
 
User avatar
CraigAnderson
Posts: 707
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:28 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:56 pm

"Virgin Australia is in advanced discussions to lease eight or nine more Boeing 737s to boost capacity in anticipation of a rapid recovery in Australia’s domestic travel market."

If this means that the Bain beancounters are seeing positive signs for the market, that's got to be a good thing for Virgin, its staff and the public.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 57ax4.html
 
User avatar
CraigAnderson
Posts: 707
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:28 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:20 pm

"Paul Scurrah back in the driver’s seat, this time at Pacific National"

"Spurned Virgin Australia boss Paul Scurrah is set to take the reins at Australia’s biggest private-sector freight company, Pacific National.
Street Talk understands Scurrah will be appointed as Pacific National chief executive officer, overseeing a complex $10 billion enterprise with $2.5 billion annual revenue, more than 3000 employees and operations in 70 locations across Australia."

Sounds like a good fit given Scurrah's previous solid record in the transport sector covering rail, shipping and airlines. Absolutely terrible the way he was shafted by Bain, and ironic that so much of Bain's VA2 plan is pretty much what Scurrah set out to do even after taking over from Borghetti, admittedly with a few Covid twists such as axing the entire long-haul fleet rather than moving into a replacement of it.

https://www.afr.com/street-talk/paul-sc ... 315-p57apm
 
tullamarine
Posts: 2796
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:42 pm

CraigAnderson wrote:
"Virgin Australia is in advanced discussions to lease eight or nine more Boeing 737s to boost capacity in anticipation of a rapid recovery in Australia’s domestic travel market."

If this means that the Bain beancounters are seeing positive signs for the market, that's got to be a good thing for Virgin, its staff and the public.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 57ax4.html

It is likely they will be able to lease some of their old planes back. These will still have the VA fit-out and are currently baking in the Arizona sun. With lessors keen to get revenue for parked planes, the lease rates for the planes will probably be significantly less than previously paid.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
Obzerva
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:48 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:09 pm

Wouldn't be surprised if we see some sort of announcement relatively soon re Alliance doing some flying for VA in to / out of CBR.

VA have announced the CBR lounge is reopening and the VA schedule doesn't justify it, so it feels like there's a piece missing, and Alliance flights would logically be it.
 
User avatar
Chipmunk1973
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:23 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:17 pm

CraigAnderson wrote:
Rex is now shopping around for two additional B737s on top of the six it'll have by end of this month, and also new cities to fly those B737s to.

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... stinations



Interesting comment regarding BNE, "Brisbane could be more proactive in working with us to get things on the way."

Obviously I have no insight into the discussion, but you’d think any airport would be doing whatever it takes to drum up business in this climate.
Cheers,
C1973


B707, B717, B727, B734, B737, B738, B743, B762, B763, B77W, A300, A320, A332, A333, A339, A388, BAe146, Cessna 206.
AN, EK, MI, QF, SB.
 
Boof
Posts: 178
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:16 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:31 pm

tullamarine wrote:
aschachter wrote:
CraigAnderson wrote:
"Virgin Australia will continue to be the official airline partner of the AFL and AFLW until 2025 in an agreement announced today."

"The five-year deal will see Virgin Australia continue to fly the league’s 32 teams including players, coaches and support staff to interstate matches, making it one of the largest airline sponsorships of any team sport in the country."

Virgin also extending sponsorship deals with Carlton and the Gold Coast Suns. Interesting to see the Suns in there, as this was Paul Scurrah's 'religion', he was a Suns mega fan and is on the board.

https://newsroom.virginaustralia.com/re ... artnership


To celebrate the announcement, Virgin Australia showcased its signature flair at Melbourne Airport this morning, with Jayne Hrdlicka and Carlton and Richmond captain’s Sam Docherty and Trent Cotchin, alongside AFLW players Izzy Huntington (Western Bulldogs) and Kaitlyn Ashmore (North Melbourne Kangaroos), checking-in fans and giving away free flights and tickets to away games.

Virgin Australia has been the official airline partner of the AFL since 2011, transporting players, coaches, league officials and support staff on more than 4,000 flights (or 144,000 seats), carrying more than 2,600 tonnes in club cargo in that time, while sharing the magic of the game all over the country.

https://newsroom.virginaustralia.com/re ... artnership


Interesting to see how this works going forward with VA not operating A330s anymore.
I am not sure how the Dockers and Eagles will like flying , especially their taller players, from Perth to the east coast on a 737...

Also, my question is, whether QF got a look in at this, the contract just rolled over or weren't interested

Last year, all flights for AFL were on 737s as domestic was otherwise basically shut and bubble meant all flights had to be charters. Even when the A330s operated in prior years, most of the team was still in Y or Y+.

I think QF would've been interested but AFL have been pretty clear that they want an almost exclusive arrangement. QF couldn't have AFL as well as NRL and ARU.

Interestingly, chairman of AFL Richard Goyder is also chairman of Qantas but, I assume like last time, he excluded himself from meeting whilst this matter was discussed.


Last year with the AFL hubs and clubs not flying back and forwards to WA the lie flat requirements of the AFL team agreements with the AFL was removed (this was noted in media but I can’t find the link to hand I’m sorry). Basically WA’s hard border meant no sides flew in the day before and left after the game.

aschachter is right, the WA clubs had agreements for X number of seats per trip in lie flat seating (16 rings a bell). The other clubs for some trips have/had access as well. No doubt this was covered off between the clubs and the AFL before this extension was signed.

I do wonder how far away we are in Australia from having dedicated charter jets like the US sports. There have been a few charters in the past, and VA do run “odd” flights at times to accommodate the AFL which fans and customers also have access to these seats (PER-LST for Freo/WC vs Hawks in Launceston is an example).

Maybe an all lie flat biz configured E190 with Allianz would be the go?
Bring back Virgin Blue!
 
User avatar
CraigAnderson
Posts: 707
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:28 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:38 am

tullamarine wrote:
It is likely they will be able to lease some of their old planes back. These will still have the VA fit-out and are currently baking in the Arizona sun. With lessors keen to get revenue for parked planes, the lease rates for the planes will probably be significantly less than previously paid.


Yep, nobody else rushing to take 737s on now, well, except for Rex LOL. I'm sure Bain will cut a deal there.
 
a320fan
Posts: 929
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:04 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:46 am

It’s interesting what Rex will do if they can’t get any more VA 737s, will they run a mixed config fleet? Or stump up the cash to refit every frame, or the non standard frames to the VA config/ their own new config.
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A350-900, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300, Q400
 
User avatar
CraigAnderson
Posts: 707
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:28 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:03 am

"Airbus, Boeing to battle for multi-billion dollar Qantas order"

Looks like the contest for the future of Qantas domestic fleet will be back on this year, according to AJ and Qantas' CFO. Imagine what the Qantas of 2030 could look like, maybe A320neos on domestic and A350s for Sunrise plus as A380 replacements?

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... ntas-order
 
tullamarine
Posts: 2796
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:46 am

Boof wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
aschachter wrote:

Interesting to see how this works going forward with VA not operating A330s anymore.
I am not sure how the Dockers and Eagles will like flying , especially their taller players, from Perth to the east coast on a 737...

Also, my question is, whether QF got a look in at this, the contract just rolled over or weren't interested

Last year, all flights for AFL were on 737s as domestic was otherwise basically shut and bubble meant all flights had to be charters. Even when the A330s operated in prior years, most of the team was still in Y or Y+.

I think QF would've been interested but AFL have been pretty clear that they want an almost exclusive arrangement. QF couldn't have AFL as well as NRL and ARU.

Interestingly, chairman of AFL Richard Goyder is also chairman of Qantas but, I assume like last time, he excluded himself from meeting whilst this matter was discussed.


Last year with the AFL hubs and clubs not flying back and forwards to WA the lie flat requirements of the AFL team agreements with the AFL was removed (this was noted in media but I can’t find the link to hand I’m sorry). Basically WA’s hard border meant no sides flew in the day before and left after the game.

aschachter is right, the WA clubs had agreements for X number of seats per trip in lie flat seating (16 rings a bell). The other clubs for some trips have/had access as well. No doubt this was covered off between the clubs and the AFL before this extension was signed.

I do wonder how far away we are in Australia from having dedicated charter jets like the US sports. There have been a few charters in the past, and VA do run “odd” flights at times to accommodate the AFL which fans and customers also have access to these seats (PER-LST for Freo/WC vs Hawks in Launceston is an example).

Maybe an all lie flat biz configured E190 with Allianz would be the go?


PER did operate a bubble up until Round 14 with east coast teams flying in for 2-3 weeks where they would typically play each of the western teams as well as each other. During this time, the teams were in a secure bubble and could not go out from their hotel except for training and games. These teams travelled to PER on chartered VA 737s often with both traveling teams on the same plane. After Round 14, the WA teams hubbed in Brisbane for the remainder of the season.

The first elimination final was in PER and both WCE and Collingwood travelled on chartered 737 from OOL(?) to PER. Collingwood was locked in bubble again and returned to BNE on chartered 737 after defeating WCE who was now eliminated.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
User avatar
SCFlyer
Posts: 708
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:14 am

If i recall the charter VA 737 was ex-MCY direct to PER. Both teams were hubbing out of the SC.
 
brucetiki
Posts: 241
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:36 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:33 am

a320fan wrote:
It’s interesting what Rex will do if they can’t get any more VA 737s, will they run a mixed config fleet? Or stump up the cash to refit every frame, or the non standard frames to the VA config/ their own new config.


FWIW, they've removed the headrests from the back half of the plane.

Looks like they're looking to be a jack of all trades type of service - LCC model down the back, full service in the middle of the plane, and business class down the front.
The early bird catches the worm, the late bird will be featured on a You Tube video
 
openskies88
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:42 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:15 am

a320fan wrote:
It’s interesting what Rex will do if they can’t get any more VA 737s, will they run a mixed config fleet? Or stump up the cash to refit every frame, or the non standard frames to the VA config/ their own new config.


No point refitting the cabins if they're just going to end up back with Virgin anyway.

:duck:
 
a320fan
Posts: 929
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:04 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:46 am

brucetiki wrote:
Looks like they're looking to be a jack of all trades type of service - LCC model down the back, full service in the middle of the plane, and business class down the front.

That just seems like they don’t know what they want to be and are just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks.
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A350-900, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300, Q400
 
VHOGU
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:50 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:03 am

brucetiki wrote:
a320fan wrote:
It’s interesting what Rex will do if they can’t get any more VA 737s, will they run a mixed config fleet? Or stump up the cash to refit every frame, or the non standard frames to the VA config/ their own new config.


FWIW, they've removed the headrests from the back half of the plane.

Looks like they're looking to be a jack of all trades type of service - LCC model down the back, full service in the middle of the plane, and business class down the front.

AFAIK a couple of the old birds at VA don’t have adjustable headrests from behind the overwing exits, so I don’t think this is something Rex has removed. Some of them have blanking plates on the seat backs to cover there the old DJ IFE was, and a lot of them still have volume/channel buttons on the arm rests. I doubt any virgin customers will miss flying in these older ones.

I believe the only thing Rex has done is re-trim the business class seats as they were embossed with the Virgin logo. Even rows 3, 4, 5, 13 and 14 still have “economy x” embroidered on them, which is a VA product.
 
zkncj
Posts: 4218
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:55 am

VHOGU wrote:
brucetiki wrote:
a320fan wrote:
It’s interesting what Rex will do if they can’t get any more VA 737s, will they run a mixed config fleet? Or stump up the cash to refit every frame, or the non standard frames to the VA config/ their own new config.


FWIW, they've removed the headrests from the back half of the plane.

Looks like they're looking to be a jack of all trades type of service - LCC model down the back, full service in the middle of the plane, and business class down the front.

AFAIK a couple of the old birds at VA don’t have adjustable headrests from behind the overwing exits, so I don’t think this is something Rex has removed. Some of them have blanking plates on the seat backs to cover there the old DJ IFE was, and a lot of them still have volume/channel buttons on the arm rests. I doubt any virgin customers will miss flying in these older ones.

I believe the only thing Rex has done is re-trim the business class seats as they were embossed with the Virgin logo. Even rows 3, 4, 5, 13 and 14 still have “economy x” embroidered on them, which is a VA product.


I believe when the J refit was down the front Y rows had to be replaced as part of the configuration and certification. Was an rather expensive projected for VA to add J on the 738s.

They also had issue with the old PE converter seats on the 738. With mixing two models of seats. Hence why row 4 in the old PE/Y config had additional legroom. Also hence why the seat model changes at the exit row on these older birds. They had to allow an certain space between two types of seats models.
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:20 am

tullamarine wrote:
I think QF would've been interested but AFL have been pretty clear that they want an almost exclusive arrangement. QF couldn't have AFL as well as NRL and ARU.


The AFL contract is worth a lot in PR but very little in income. For 24 weekends per year they move about 30-40 team personnel of 8 interstate (out of Victoria) teams to and from a game. That's about 8000 passenger seats per year. That's also what one FIFO contract to one mine would move in about 2 weeks. The AFL contract is all about PR, and QF obviously thinks their existing extensive PR network is enough.
 
moa999
Posts: 1053
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:37 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:00 am

Will we see Amazon Air as one of the freight operators at WSA.

Constructing a massive warehouse at Kemp's Creek (about 5km from Badgery's) intended to serve the Australian East Coast.

https://youtu.be/q5dD_Xpoems
 
User avatar
Chipmunk1973
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:23 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:19 am

CraigAnderson wrote:
"Airbus, Boeing to battle for multi-billion dollar Qantas order"

Looks like the contest for the future of Qantas domestic fleet will be back on this year, according to AJ and Qantas' CFO. Imagine what the Qantas of 2030 could look like, maybe A320neos on domestic and A350s for Sunrise plus as A380 replacements?

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... ntas-order


This could turn out to be interesting.

I’ve been wondering if QF would follow the methodology of AA and split an order to something like 737M8 and A321. But I don’t think QF like to have many types within their fleet so it means either B737M8 and M10 or A320NEO and A321NEO.

Given that suggestions have already been made by AJ that A321NEOs could enter the QF fleet, it would make more sense to use the A320 as well. Perhaps the A320NEO would sit in a position that A319 once did and have the A321NEO as a growth option.

An A321N with 16J seats would appear to be an ideal offering on the “Golden Triangle” of BNE-SYD-MEL in lieu of some wide body services as well as some trans-con East/West coast services.

And given that AJ has stated previously that the A220 was an ideal plane for QF, albeit at a price level too high, could QF end up with an all Airbus fleet?
Cheers,
C1973


B707, B717, B727, B734, B737, B738, B743, B762, B763, B77W, A300, A320, A332, A333, A339, A388, BAe146, Cessna 206.
AN, EK, MI, QF, SB.
 
Flyingsottsman
Posts: 837
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:32 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:00 am

moa999 wrote:
Will we see Amazon Air as one of the freight operators at WSA.

Constructing a massive warehouse at Kemp's Creek (about 5km from Badgery's) intended to serve the Australian East Coast.

https://youtu.be/q5dD_Xpoems


Will FedEx, UPS, Polar and Atlas and the other freight airlines that come into Sydney, will they still use Kingford Smith or move to WSA?
 
User avatar
EK413
Posts: 5663
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:11 pm

Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:07 am

Flyingsottsman wrote:
moa999 wrote:
Will we see Amazon Air as one of the freight operators at WSA.

Constructing a massive warehouse at Kemp's Creek (about 5km from Badgery's) intended to serve the Australian East Coast.

https://youtu.be/q5dD_Xpoems


Will FedEx, UPS, Polar and Atlas and the other freight airlines that come into Sydney, will they still use Kingford Smith or move to WSA?


I’d say majority of the dedicated freighter services would relocate to WSA factoring in the airport will be 24 hour ops...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
tullamarine
Posts: 2796
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:13 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
I think QF would've been interested but AFL have been pretty clear that they want an almost exclusive arrangement. QF couldn't have AFL as well as NRL and ARU.


The AFL contract is worth a lot in PR but very little in income. For 24 weekends per year they move about 30-40 team personnel of 8 interstate (out of Victoria) teams to and from a game. That's about 8000 passenger seats per year. That's also what one FIFO contract to one mine would move in about 2 weeks. The AFL contract is all about PR, and QF obviously thinks their existing extensive PR network is enough.


Of course it is a marketing exercise. Sponsorships are all about halo marketing not bums on seats. QF sponsored the Wallabies for 30 years with much less seats sold than AFL generates and questionable exposure value given rugby union has basically zero presence in southern states but int'l exposure must have been enough to make it worthwhile. Now int'l has basically disappeared, QF exited rugby as soon as it could.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2823
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:29 am

Obzerva wrote:
Wouldn't be surprised if we see some sort of announcement relatively soon re Alliance doing some flying for VA in to / out of CBR.

VA have announced the CBR lounge is reopening and the VA schedule doesn't justify it, so it feels like there's a piece missing, and Alliance flights would logically be it.


Last time I checked VA were scheduling a twice daily 73G service on SYD-CBR from some point in late April. Perhaps placeholders? But Melbourne, Brisbane and, I think, Adelaide flights are probably getting up there to justify the lounge already. Or at least when schedules return to normalish.
 
VHOGU
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:50 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:50 am

aerokiwi wrote:
Obzerva wrote:
Wouldn't be surprised if we see some sort of announcement relatively soon re Alliance doing some flying for VA in to / out of CBR.

VA have announced the CBR lounge is reopening and the VA schedule doesn't justify it, so it feels like there's a piece missing, and Alliance flights would logically be it.


Last time I checked VA were scheduling a twice daily 73G service on SYD-CBR from some point in late April. Perhaps placeholders? But Melbourne, Brisbane and, I think, Adelaide flights are probably getting up there to justify the lounge already. Or at least when schedules return to normalish.

I’ve heard one of the 700’s will be based in Sydney to operate these flights a lot of the time.
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8668
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:06 am

Chipmunk1973 wrote:
CraigAnderson wrote:
"Airbus, Boeing to battle for multi-billion dollar Qantas order"

Looks like the contest for the future of Qantas domestic fleet will be back on this year, according to AJ and Qantas' CFO. Imagine what the Qantas of 2030 could look like, maybe A320neos on domestic and A350s for Sunrise plus as A380 replacements?

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... ntas-order


This could turn out to be interesting.

I’ve been wondering if QF would follow the methodology of AA and split an order to something like 737M8 and A321. But I don’t think QF like to have many types within their fleet so it means either B737M8 and M10 or A320NEO and A321NEO.

Given that suggestions have already been made by AJ that A321NEOs could enter the QF fleet, it would make more sense to use the A320 as well. Perhaps the A320NEO would sit in a position that A319 once did and have the A321NEO as a growth option.

An A321N with 16J seats would appear to be an ideal offering on the “Golden Triangle” of BNE-SYD-MEL in lieu of some wide body services as well as some trans-con East/West coast services.

And given that AJ has stated previously that the A220 was an ideal plane for QF, albeit at a price level too high, could QF end up with an all Airbus fleet?


American Airlines have over 400 A319/20/21 and over 300 737. When you are talking about ~750 aircraft the economies of scale of a split fleet are completely different to Qantas’ much smaller fleet.

Arguably Qantas is already too fragmented with 6-12 A380, 12 787 and 28 A330. I doubt they want to exacerbate that with (hypothetically) 30 A321 and 50 7M8. It’s either NEO or MAX, IMHO.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
User avatar
vhtje
Posts: 1318
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:10 am

Gemuser wrote:
DeltaB717 wrote:
No, the IASC allocates traffic rights. Only the designated slot coordinator for HND can allocate arrival and departure slots for that airport. Traffic rights are useless without the slots, and the slots are useless without the traffic rights. In theory, and in normal circumstances, VA would need to relinquish both or have them removed for non-performance - in the reality of the current situation, it's unlikely VA can mount an argument to retain their traffic rights beyond any COVID-related grace periods (given one of the IASC criteria requires a carrier to be able to operate the traffic rights) so in all likelihood if QF asks for them to be reallocated the IASC won't have much choice.


Not quite right, although close but this not a normal case. For HND the Japaneese government allocates traffic rights & slots to a COUNTRY [obviously Australia in this case]. It is then up to the country reciveing the rights/slots to allocate them to a specific airline, this is what IASC did. As far as non operation [COVID] goes it is what the Japaneese government says goes. If VA can't operate them when the grace period is up, then either Australia reallocates or we hand them back. Somehow I don't think C of A or QF would be keen on handing them back.

Gemuser


If VA do lose the slots, and the slots are allotted to QF, if the QF/JL JV goes ahead, that means JL can get the slots, right?

Or would they be limited on services to Australia/New Zealand?

Lots of ifs, I know, but I am wondering what impact the JV (if it goes ahead) would have on slot allocation, should slots come up? Remembering that the JV is metal-neutral.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
User avatar
SCFlyer
Posts: 708
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:00 pm

vhtje wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
DeltaB717 wrote:
No, the IASC allocates traffic rights. Only the designated slot coordinator for HND can allocate arrival and departure slots for that airport. Traffic rights are useless without the slots, and the slots are useless without the traffic rights. In theory, and in normal circumstances, VA would need to relinquish both or have them removed for non-performance - in the reality of the current situation, it's unlikely VA can mount an argument to retain their traffic rights beyond any COVID-related grace periods (given one of the IASC criteria requires a carrier to be able to operate the traffic rights) so in all likelihood if QF asks for them to be reallocated the IASC won't have much choice.


Not quite right, although close but this not a normal case. For HND the Japaneese government allocates traffic rights & slots to a COUNTRY [obviously Australia in this case]. It is then up to the country reciveing the rights/slots to allocate them to a specific airline, this is what IASC did. As far as non operation [COVID] goes it is what the Japaneese government says goes. If VA can't operate them when the grace period is up, then either Australia reallocates or we hand them back. Somehow I don't think C of A or QF would be keen on handing them back.

Gemuser


If VA do lose the slots, and the slots are allotted to QF, if the QF/JL JV goes ahead, that means JL can get the slots, right?


Nope.

Otherwise VA would've just handed off their slot to their intended JV partner NH if that was possible.
Last edited by SCFlyer on Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8668
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:00 pm

vhtje wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
DeltaB717 wrote:
No, the IASC allocates traffic rights. Only the designated slot coordinator for HND can allocate arrival and departure slots for that airport. Traffic rights are useless without the slots, and the slots are useless without the traffic rights. In theory, and in normal circumstances, VA would need to relinquish both or have them removed for non-performance - in the reality of the current situation, it's unlikely VA can mount an argument to retain their traffic rights beyond any COVID-related grace periods (given one of the IASC criteria requires a carrier to be able to operate the traffic rights) so in all likelihood if QF asks for them to be reallocated the IASC won't have much choice.


Not quite right, although close but this not a normal case. For HND the Japaneese government allocates traffic rights & slots to a COUNTRY [obviously Australia in this case]. It is then up to the country reciveing the rights/slots to allocate them to a specific airline, this is what IASC did. As far as non operation [COVID] goes it is what the Japaneese government says goes. If VA can't operate them when the grace period is up, then either Australia reallocates or we hand them back. Somehow I don't think C of A or QF would be keen on handing them back.

Gemuser


If VA do lose the slots, and the slots are allotted to QF, if the QF/JL JV goes ahead, that means JL can get the slots, right?

Or would they be limited on services to Australia/New Zealand?

Lots of ifs, I know, but I am wondering what impact the JV (if it goes ahead) would have on slot allocation, should slots come up? Remembering that the JV is metal-neutral.


Slots or traffic rights?

Traffic rights must be operated by an Australian airline. The traffic rights are allocated to the country, and Australia cannot then allocate them back to a Japanese airline. JAL would have to use Japanese traffic rights.

Slots at Haneda cannot be traded, so JL cannot lease them to QF, if that was your question. Slots must be drawn from the general pool, and returned to the pool if they aren’t required.

A commercial agreement between an Australian and Japanese carrier cannot circumvent these restrictions. If a JV was approved then they could coordinate schedules and share revenue etc, but the underlying restrictions on operating to HND would remain.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
LTEN11
Posts: 191
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:09 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - March 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:06 pm

tullamarine wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
I think QF would've been interested but AFL have been pretty clear that they want an almost exclusive arrangement. QF couldn't have AFL as well as NRL and ARU.


The AFL contract is worth a lot in PR but very little in income. For 24 weekends per year they move about 30-40 team personnel of 8 interstate (out of Victoria) teams to and from a game. That's about 8000 passenger seats per year. That's also what one FIFO contract to one mine would move in about 2 weeks. The AFL contract is all about PR, and QF obviously thinks their existing extensive PR network is enough.


Of course it is a marketing exercise. Sponsorships are all about halo marketing not bums on seats. QF sponsored the Wallabies for 30 years with much less seats sold than AFL generates and questionable exposure value given rugby union has basically zero presence in southern states but int'l exposure must have been enough to make it worthwhile. Now int'l has basically disappeared, QF exited rugby as soon as it could.


You don't sponsor a sport for 30 years without getting a tangible return on your investment. It was an excellent partnership and was severed before covid because of the actions of one player, solely and wholly. Whether the sponsorship would've survived in the current covid environment maybe another story.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos