Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 25327
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:23 pm

U.S. Mesa Air Group has entered into an agreement with UK Gramercy Associates to develop a pan European based joint venture.
The joint venture will apply for a new AOC in the EU using CRJ900s with the goal of introducing a CPA and ACMI services in Europe.
Mesa will own 49% of the partnership, with plans is to begin operations by end of 2021.


Mesa Air Group Eyes International Growth
https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele ... rowth.html
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
UPlog
Posts: 712
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 am

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:54 pm

Busy times at Mesa. First the new DHL 737 flying, then a partnership with United into Archer aircraft, and now a EU venture.
I fly your boxes
 
alasizon
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:12 pm

Have to find somewhere to fly all those CR9s that aren't under contract...
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
CRJ900
Posts: 2407
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:42 pm

Interesting news, the CRJ900 is still a good aircraft, in Europe most of them have 90 seats and there are many pilots with CRJ experience. Mesa should look into the possibility of densifying the cabin so the aircraft can have 94-100 slimline seats at 29-30 inch pitch which might make the aircraft more appealing CASM-wise... the aft lav can be placed further back in the aft cargo hold, like DL has done on the CRJ700 allowing for one more seat row.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
UA748i
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 11:53 pm

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:10 pm

CRJ900 wrote:
Interesting news, the CRJ900 is still a good aircraft, in Europe most of them have 90 seats and there are many pilots with CRJ experience. Mesa should look into the possibility of densifying the cabin so the aircraft can have 94-100 slimline seats at 29-30 inch pitch which might make the aircraft more appealing CASM-wise... the aft lav can be placed further back in the aft cargo hold, like DL has done on the CRJ700 allowing for one more seat row.


If they ever did that, I would avoid riding YV even more than I do now.
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10819
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:16 pm

There will be mutual stiff competition between this new venture and CityJet / Air Nostrum - it could certainly refocus their stalled merger talks on the other side of the pandemic.
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2552
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:35 pm

There are or have been multiple ACMI operators in this size range in Europe. Off the top of my head a few examples:
German Airways, formerly WDL, with 5 E190
LGW, dissolved in 2020, with 15 Q400
Air Nostrum, with a bunch of CRJ and ATR
Cityjet, with 19 CR9
Braathens, with 12 ATR
Helvetic Airways, with 13 E190
FlyBMI / bmi regional with a dozen ERJ, dissolved in 2019

CPA isn't that much of a thing, compared to the US. The large legacies all have some fully or partially owned regional subsidiary in that market. Examples are Dolomiti Airways (ATR), Lufthansa Cityline (CRJ / E190), HOP! (CRJ / E190) and KLM Cityhopper (E175). Many remaining CRJ operators are already planning to phase them out and switch to the E2 (or larger jets). EU airlines aren't as constrained by scope clauses, which protect the CRJ and E175 in the US.

Congrats for trying, I guess, but it won't be easy.
 
debonair
Posts: 4202
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:50 pm

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:51 pm

....and don't forget nordica/xfly. The backbone of this Tallin based operator is the CR9 as well!
 
2eng2efficient
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:30 pm

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:27 am

mxaxai wrote:
There are or have been multiple ACMI operators in this size range in Europe. Off the top of my head a few examples:
German Airways, formerly WDL, with 5 E190
LGW, dissolved in 2020, with 15 Q400
Air Nostrum, with a bunch of CRJ and ATR
Cityjet, with 19 CR9
Braathens, with 12 ATR
Helvetic Airways, with 13 E190
FlyBMI / bmi regional with a dozen ERJ, dissolved in 2019

CPA isn't that much of a thing, compared to the US. The large legacies all have some fully or partially owned regional subsidiary in that market. Examples are Dolomiti Airways (ATR), Lufthansa Cityline (CRJ / E190), HOP! (CRJ / E190) and KLM Cityhopper (E175). Many remaining CRJ operators are already planning to phase them out and switch to the E2 (or larger jets). EU airlines aren't as constrained by scope clauses, which protect the CRJ and E175 in the US.

Congrats for trying, I guess, but it won't be easy.


Didn’t Dolomiti dump all of its ATR to become a single-type E190/195 operator?
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2552
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:18 am

2eng2efficient wrote:
Didn’t Dolomiti dump all of its ATR to become a single-type E190/195 operator?

You are, of course, correct. Upon further research, they sold their ATR fleet over 8 years ago ... time flies I guess.
 
2eng2efficient
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:30 pm

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:13 am

mxaxai wrote:
2eng2efficient wrote:
Didn’t Dolomiti dump all of its ATR to become a single-type E190/195 operator?

You are, of course, correct. Upon further research, they sold their ATR fleet over 8 years ago ... time flies I guess.


I have a funny memory from roughly ten years ago, a friend of mine was flying ORD-MUC-FCO on LH, but she told me the MUC-FCO leg was operated by Air Dolomiti. I was very surprised to hear that MUC-FCO would be flown on an ATR and “warned” her to be prepared for a prop, but she replied “It’s something called an E-190” - to my surprise, at that time I thought they were an all-ATR operator!
 
USAirKid
Posts: 800
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:25 am

I'm kinda surprised they're trying again, after their failed venture in China and Go! in Hawaii.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:21 am

USAirKid wrote:
I'm kinda surprised they're trying again, after their failed venture in China and Go! in Hawaii.


Looks like JO learned a thing or two this time. The press release states that Mesa will only take a 49% stake once the AOC has been acquired. As I recall that was one of the errors in the Chinese venture.

go! wasn't a bad idea - it was just poorly executed.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3177
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:27 am

The story is up for a day and not a single post about this venture bringing lower standards, regulation, and pilot pay? This forum is bleeding pilots and attracting future management.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4547
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:59 am

LAXintl wrote:
U.S. Mesa Air Group has entered into an agreement with UK Gramercy Associates to develop a pan European based joint venture.
The joint venture will apply for a new AOC in the EU using CRJ900s with the goal of introducing a CPA and ACMI services in Europe.
Mesa will own 49% of the partnership, with plans is to begin operations by end of 2021.


Mesa Air Group Eyes International Growth
https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele ... rowth.html


Mesa seems to have a rough track record with these ventures if I recall. Didn't they flop in Hawaii pretty bad? I'm all for cool ideas, but I worry they will bite off more than they can chew. Do they have the money to invest in these ventures? Maybe they know something we don't know about? Could a major contract be on the line perhaps? Sorry for all the doom and gloom questions! I don't follow Mesa that closely, but I do know their history has nearly put them under a few times. It seems like when things start shaping up nice, they experiment with other things that tend to not go well.

After experiencing what happened when Republic did the Frontier and Midwest thing... Yep, I am hand shy with things like this.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5498
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:38 pm

alasizon wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
I'm kinda surprised they're trying again, after their failed venture in China and Go! in Hawaii.


Looks like JO learned a thing or two this time. The press release states that Mesa will only take a 49% stake once the AOC has been acquired. As I recall that was one of the errors in the Chinese venture.

go! wasn't a bad idea - it was just poorly executed.


49% is the foreign ownership limit for airlines in the EU.

b747400erf wrote:
The story is up for a day and not a single post about this venture bringing lower standards, regulation, and pilot pay? This forum is bleeding pilots and attracting future management.


How could standards possibly drop any further in the EU? Even pre-Colgan 3407, Mesa standards were luxury compared to what Ryanair and Wizz Air have made normal in Europe today. Last I checked, even US regionals didn't run pay-2-fly schemes.
 
User avatar
janders
Moderator
Posts: 1194
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:27 pm

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:13 pm

alasizon wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
I'm kinda surprised they're trying again, after their failed venture in China and Go! in Hawaii.


Looks like JO learned a thing or two this time. The press release states that Mesa will only take a 49% stake once the AOC has been acquired. As I recall that was one of the errors in the Chinese venture.


Mesa had a 25% stake in the China venture with Shenzhen Airlines having majority control. Chinese law, limits a single foreign investors to no more than 25% of an airline.


https://www.aviationpros.com/home/news/ ... se-airline
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB116709223120459245
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
User avatar
Crosswind
Posts: 2641
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2000 4:34 am

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:24 pm

VSMUT wrote:
How could standards possibly drop any further in the EU? Even pre-Colgan 3407, Mesa standards were luxury compared to what Ryanair and Wizz Air have made normal in Europe today. Last I checked, even US regionals didn't run pay-2-fly schemes.


Pay to fly schemes aside, Ryanair remuneration is reasonable by European industry standards.

I fly one of the same types as Mesa in Europe, and I earn approximately double what their Captains earn according to this;
https://www.aviationinterviews.com/pilot/payrates/mesa-airlines-41.html
Their FO pay rates look similarly mean.

I really hope this does not take off in Europe. There is already enough downward pressure on pilot terms and conditions without a bottom-feeder dumping their capacity and poor terms into the market. In the current climate they would no doubt find willing pilots, due to the thousands in Europe who are out of work, but it really lowers the bar for everyone.

Also where’s the opportunity? Everyone has loads of spare capacity, so presumably Mesa would just come in cheap and replace someone’s aircraft capacity and crew jobs on the cheap. No thanks. Dump your spare aircraft elsewhere.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5498
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:53 pm

Crosswind wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
How could standards possibly drop any further in the EU? Even pre-Colgan 3407, Mesa standards were luxury compared to what Ryanair and Wizz Air have made normal in Europe today. Last I checked, even US regionals didn't run pay-2-fly schemes.


Pay to fly schemes aside, Ryanair remuneration is reasonable by European industry standards.


That was before they started forcing pilots onto Buzz and Malta Air contracts. It also ignores a lot of basic stuff everyone else takes for granted, such as sick leave or pay when in the simulator. They are pretty aggressive about cutting hours once you reach higher seniority. The suggested reasonable rate they parade about is very much a theoretical exercise.


Crosswind wrote:
I fly one of the same types as Mesa in Europe, and I earn approximately double what their Captains earn according to this;
https://www.aviationinterviews.com/pilot/payrates/mesa-airlines-41.html
Their FO pay rates look similarly mean.

I really hope this does not take off in Europe. There is already enough downward pressure on pilot terms and conditions without a bottom-feeder dumping their capacity and poor terms into the market. In the current climate they would no doubt find willing pilots, due to the thousands in Europe who are out of work, but it really lowers the bar for everyone.

Also where’s the opportunity? Everyone has loads of spare capacity, so presumably Mesa would just come in cheap and replace someone’s aircraft capacity and crew jobs on the cheap. No thanks. Dump your spare aircraft elsewhere.


:checkmark:

We regional aircraft pilots have pretty much been ignored by the entire pay-to-fly thing. I fear this might be about to change.
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 5169
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:59 pm

I could see the US model of contract flying become increasingly popular in Europe in a post-pandemic world as airlines seek to manage cost carefully.

Such operations would allow arms-length relationships and the ability to avoid in-house staffing for such flying for outside vendors.
mercure f-wtcc
 
User avatar
Crosswind
Posts: 2641
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2000 4:34 am

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:38 pm

mercure1 wrote:
I could see the US model of contract flying become increasingly popular in Europe in a post-pandemic world as airlines seek to manage cost carefully.

Such operations would allow arms-length relationships and the ability to avoid in-house staffing for such flying for outside vendors.


The North American contract flying model is broken, the salaries are so low that many cannot afford to live in their bases, and long distance-commutes to work are common. The airlines play the regional carriers off against one another, and move their flying to the lowest-common-denominatior provider. By pulling the plug on the incumbent, it usually causes the whole company to fold causing misery to thousands of staff. See recent examples of Delta pulling all flying from Compass Airlines, Delta from ExpressJet and Air Canada from Sky Regional.

Customers don’t win, Staff don’t win, the airlines just drive down their own costs and reduce employment terms and conditions.

I’d rather not have an axe dangling over my head the whole time, that somebody could pull the plug on the entire company’s flying. Horrible business model.

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5498
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:05 pm

mercure1 wrote:
I could see the US model of contract flying become increasingly popular in Europe in a post-pandemic world as airlines seek to manage cost carefully.

Such operations would allow arms-length relationships and the ability to avoid in-house staffing for such flying for outside vendors.


Europe is well ahead of the US on contract flying. It looks more obvious in the US because they have such massive fleets, but that's because of geographical differences. We don't just contract regional aircraft en-masse, but also mainline jets and even the odd long haul aircraft.
 
Ott
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:50 am

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:53 pm

Xfly could be looking for a new strategical partner after buying out LOT's stake. Any chance for their cooperation with MESA?
 
User avatar
intrance
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:35 pm

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:35 pm

Ott wrote:
Xfly could be looking for a new strategical partner after buying out LOT's stake. Any chance for their cooperation with MESA?


Xfly/Regional Jet is at the moment working closely with SAS and providing capacity for them. And since the restructuring that included removing LOT from the equation was needed for approval to get government COVID support money, I don't think they'll be looking to hand out half of the company any time soon again.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 642
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:10 am

Crosswind wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
How could standards possibly drop any further in the EU? Even pre-Colgan 3407, Mesa standards were luxury compared to what Ryanair and Wizz Air have made normal in Europe today. Last I checked, even US regionals didn't run pay-2-fly schemes.


Pay to fly schemes aside, Ryanair remuneration is reasonable by European industry standards.

I fly one of the same types as Mesa in Europe, and I earn approximately double what their Captains earn according to this;
https://www.aviationinterviews.com/pilot/payrates/mesa-airlines-41.html
Their FO pay rates look similarly mean.

I really hope this does not take off in Europe. There is already enough downward pressure on pilot terms and conditions without a bottom-feeder dumping their capacity and poor terms into the market. In the current climate they would no doubt find willing pilots, due to the thousands in Europe who are out of work, but it really lowers the bar for everyone.

Also where’s the opportunity? Everyone has loads of spare capacity, so presumably Mesa would just come in cheap and replace someone’s aircraft capacity and crew jobs on the cheap. No thanks. Dump your spare aircraft elsewhere.

Ish the best source for us airline rates is this https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... a_airlines
But mesa is famous for 300% overtime being pretty constantly available due to their inability to schedule and man an operation
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2906
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:45 am

Crosswind wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
I could see the US model of contract flying become increasingly popular in Europe in a post-pandemic world as airlines seek to manage cost carefully.

Such operations would allow arms-length relationships and the ability to avoid in-house staffing for such flying for outside vendors.


The North American contract flying model is broken, the salaries are so low that many cannot afford to live in their bases, and long distance-commutes to work are common. The airlines play the regional carriers off against one another, and move their flying to the lowest-common-denominatior provider. By pulling the plug on the incumbent, it usually causes the whole company to fold causing misery to thousands of staff. See recent examples of Delta pulling all flying from Compass Airlines, Delta from ExpressJet and Air Canada from Sky Regional.

Customers don’t win, Staff don’t win, the airlines just drive down their own costs and reduce employment terms and conditions.

I’d rather not have an axe dangling over my head the whole time, that somebody could pull the plug on the entire company’s flying. Horrible business model.

Regards
CROSSWIND


This is not true anymore. While it was once the case, the recent contract drops were to make more efficient operations and simplify things. As I understand, DL ended up going to more expensive carriers (Endeavor and Skywest) because of the importance of the operation and reliability. While cost is important, it’s not the driver it once was. Further, it’s hard to play the regionals off each other now, as there are only a handful left and each US3 has reduced (substantially) the number of regional carriers.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 25327
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Mesa Air Group to help form European CRJ900 operator

Fri May 28, 2021 4:13 pm

According to subscription Airline Weekly, reports Mesa moving forward with establishing AOC (no hint as to which country)
Per Ornstein "European regional flying is undergoing a transformation presenting Mesa with opportunities for growth"
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos