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Noshow
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:17 am

They have plenty of A350 on order and like them. The A330neo is too close and perceived to be expensive compared to the A350. And affiliates that don't get new 787s might need to recycle what is left over or lease something else. LH wants less types not more.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:34 am

Scotron12 wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
columba wrote:
Thought they would go with GE because of their 747-8 fleet.


The thing is the RR and LH maintenance collaboration will last way longer than the 747-8. It has survived the chop this time, but it will be the go to chop the next time the fleet will be reviewed.


They weren't compelled to order RR on their 787s, were they? Or does it specifically state that LH must order RR engines where available??


No they could have chosen GE but I guess it was the smarter choice given the fact that they had to have RR on the A350 and have an extended maintenance partnership with RR it was hard for GE to offer good enough to break in with the GEnx.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:35 am

Scotron12 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Why do we again talk about the A330NEO, LH has been very consistent in not considering it suitable for their needs. And as they seem to intend on keeping the A350s orders, there is no pressure to exchange for something smaller.


A bit of a contradiction, no?? Spohr says he wants to downsize, why wouldn't the A330NEO be in the mix?


It is no contradiction as they laid out their plan in the presentation and showed the future widebody fleet. And that plan shows no A330NEO.
 
Opus99
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:44 am

The 330neo is useless in this group. It doesn’t offer anything that the 350 and 787 family cannot offer and offer more efficiently. And that has always been it’s main problem.

LH ordering the 787s was just a very clear sign of that. I mean not only do they have 20 firm they have 20 options. Those 20 options may very well go on to Swiss and Austrian to sort out their wide body replacements. I just don’t see it if I’m honest.

Then it’s just adding another fleet type. Meaning 787,350,777X and 330neo. 787, 350 and 777X all have different roles to play in the group. 330neo has no other real value add. If there was no 787 then fine but I mean..

Maybe XLR may come up for some airlines? But Spohr said XLR is too niche doesn't see massive market. So who knows?
 
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vfw614
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:53 am

I think Lufthansa would be stupid to put something on a slide that has not been, but might be ordered at some point, so I would not read too much into the A330NEO not being included in the slide show. The slides do not reflect Lufthansa's fleet planning for the next two decades. It is a snapshot.

The group has 34 A330-300 that need to be replaced at some point and the current orders for smaller long-haul aircraft are not large enough for such a replacement. When it comes to a replacement, I am pretty sure Lufthansa will take another look at the A330-900, depending on pricing, availability and experience with the 787.
 
Noshow
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:08 am

The entire fleet topic is a moving target as are financing and demand. I agree that this is a snapshot only and dates and planes might change again. Who knows what firesale offers and early delivery slots might become available these days? Plus some political/financial support for "greener" engines and - bingo.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:58 am

Scotron12 wrote:
They weren't compelled to order RR on their 787s, were they? Or does it specifically state that LH must order RR engines where available??

Hardly. LH has ordered the A320 with all available engines, even when RR was still involved through the IAE V2500. It also didn't keep them from ordering the 777-9 or 77W with GE engines when they could've opted for the A350-1000 or A340-600 with RR engines. As the launch customer for the 747-8, LH probably could've forced Boeing to use the Trent 1000 rather than the GEnx but they didn't. Instead, they signed a comprehensive 12-year service agreement worth ~ $1B with GE in 2012 https://www.ge.com/news/press-releases/ ... -airberlin.

LH Technik is one of the largest MRO companies. They have good relations with all major OEMs. LHT will, for example, become the primary contractor for certain GE-9X MRO services for LH and all other airlines worldwide https://www.lufthansa-technik.com/press ... -agreement.

LH (the airline) chooses whatever works best for their routes.
 
columba
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:12 pm

vfw614 wrote:
I think Lufthansa would be stupid to put something on a slide that has not been, but might be ordered at some point, so I would not read too much into the A330NEO not being included in the slide show. The slides do not reflect Lufthansa's fleet planning for the next two decades. It is a snapshot.

The group has 34 A330-300 that need to be replaced at some point and the current orders for smaller long-haul aircraft are not large enough for such a replacement. When it comes to a replacement, I am pretty sure Lufthansa will take another look at the A330-900, depending on pricing, availability and experience with the 787.

I believe that they already did that when they ordered the 787 in the first place.....
 
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vfw614
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:32 pm

Sure. But the 787-9 were never intended to replace the A330s, they are replacing A340-300/A340-600/767-300s. That does not necessarily mean that they are the better fit when it comes to replacing the A330-300, depending on pricing (I guess when it comes to replacing the A330-300Xs, Airbus will price the A330-900 rather aggressively, given its somewhat slower sales compared to the 787-9). But I agree that it was easier to sell Lufthansa the A330-300 than it will be to sell it the A330-900.
 
Scotron12
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:38 pm

columba wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
I think Lufthansa would be stupid to put something on a slide that has not been, but might be ordered at some point, so I would not read too much into the A330NEO not being included in the slide show. The slides do not reflect Lufthansa's fleet planning for the next two decades. It is a snapshot.

The group has 34 A330-300 that need to be replaced at some point and the current orders for smaller long-haul aircraft are not large enough for such a replacement. When it comes to a replacement, I am pretty sure Lufthansa will take another look at the A330-900, depending on pricing, availability and experience with the 787.

I believe that they already did that when they ordered the 787 in the first place.....



What did they do?? They have no experience with the 787 yet, so why would they not look at the A330 in future? The 787 is not the be end of all WBs....if it were ALL long haul airlines would fly nothing else.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:39 pm

I saw the title of the thread and thought they were offering catering for the conference, my bad.
 
columba
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:49 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
columba wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
I think Lufthansa would be stupid to put something on a slide that has not been, but might be ordered at some point, so I would not read too much into the A330NEO not being included in the slide show. The slides do not reflect Lufthansa's fleet planning for the next two decades. It is a snapshot.

The group has 34 A330-300 that need to be replaced at some point and the current orders for smaller long-haul aircraft are not large enough for such a replacement. When it comes to a replacement, I am pretty sure Lufthansa will take another look at the A330-900, depending on pricing, availability and experience with the 787.

I believe that they already did that when they ordered the 787 in the first place.....



What did they do?? They have no experience with the 787 yet, so why would they not look at the A330 in future? The 787 is not the be end of all WBs....if it were ALL long haul airlines would fly nothing else.

I would not say that they have no experience with 787. Lufthansa Technik is doing maintenance for several airlines. Short google research finds: Japan Airlines, Virgin, Westjet . Their Star Alliance partners ANA, Air Canada and United are using them on flights to Germany.

LH wants less aircraft types not more. There is no need for the A330NEO when you already have the 787 and the A350.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:55 pm

Since the A330NEO launched LH has said over and over again, that they are not interested and everything they did showed it. Even when they selected the 787, they chose between the 787 and the A359. They rejected the A330NEo so early that it was not even in the final selection.
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:26 pm

seahawk wrote:
Since the A330NEO launched LH has said over and over again, that they are not interested and everything they did showed it. Even when they selected the 787, they chose between the 787 and the A359. They rejected the A330NEo so early that it was not even in the final selection.


The A330neo has a very strong cult following on A.net so I guess people pushing for airlines to order it despite there being other better options isn't surprising. It doesn't help that some people here appear to want airlines to order the A330neo (even specific models) mainly because they want to see more A330neo operators regardless if it would actually fit the airline's needs or not.
 
Opus99
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:39 pm

All the widebdy offerings on the market have their strengths to play. They all have something they excel at. The 330neo doesn’t have a USP other being cheap and that is problem. Airbus themselves have killed their jet with their very well optimised 350. I mean, I’m sure they themselves know it
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:55 pm

The one reason I see why the A330 is popular with people is that it has a 2-4-2 in economy. It is the only WB aircraft still in production that offers actual comfort in basic economy. All the other models just offer a horrible experience with the 777 as the worst offender.

That is actually it because regarding the other aspects it has not a lot going for it. I think if it would have been offered in 2004 too and there are more flying around it would at least offer economy of scale but that is also off (for now).
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:19 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
The one reason I see why the A330 is popular with people is that it has a 2-4-2 in economy. It is the only WB aircraft still in production that offers actual comfort in basic economy. All the other models just offer a horrible experience with the 777 as the worst offender.

While not standard, 3-3-3 A330s are not uncommon (as seen in its use among LCCs and charter carriers) so the seating arrangement is probably only part of the story. Plus, as much as A.net wants to deny it, people complaining about seating arrangements are in the minority and most flyers would care more about price and value than a plane is 2-4-2 or 3-3-3. I imagine much of the love for A330s may have more to do with dislike for Boeing than anything else.

FluidFlow wrote:
That is actually it because regarding the other aspects it has not a lot going for it. I think if it would have been offered in 2004 too and there are more flying around it would at least offer economy of scale but that is also off (for now).


Wasn't the A350 1.0 basically an A330neo? If airlines didn't like it then maybe the A330neo was really just not meant to be a success no matter what era.
 
marcelh
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:26 pm

Opus99 wrote:
The 330neo doesn’t have a USP other being cheap...

A very comfortable 2-4-2 seating in Y is an USP to me....
 
Opus99
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:02 pm

marcelh wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
The 330neo doesn’t have a USP other being cheap...

A very comfortable 2-4-2 seating in Y is an USP to me....

Well unless you purchase hundreds of aircraft. Then I’m sorry that’s not enough
 
CRJ900
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:32 pm

vfw614 wrote:
- Austrian's A319 fleet will be shifted to Lufthansa Cityline to replace some CR9s


As per FR24, the first 12 CRJ900 delivered to LH CityLine are not flying, so I assume they will be replaced by A319. I thought the A319s were older than the CR9, but maybe pax numbers are increasing or the CR9s have many cycles and LH doesn't want to spend money on a D-check?

How long will the 23 ex-Eurowings CR9s last in the LH fleet? They are still flying. They are next-gen while the first 12 were classic - with maybe different maintenance procedures?
 
RvA
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:10 pm

Opus99 wrote:
The 330neo is useless in this group. It doesn’t offer anything that the 350 and 787 family cannot offer and offer more efficiently. And that has always been it’s main problem.

LH ordering the 787s was just a very clear sign of that. I mean not only do they have 20 firm they have 20 options. Those 20 options may very well go on to Swiss and Austrian to sort out their wide body replacements. I just don’t see it if I’m honest.

Then it’s just adding another fleet type. Meaning 787,350,777X and 330neo. 787, 350 and 777X all have different roles to play in the group. 330neo has no other real value add. If there was no 787 then fine but I mean..

Maybe XLR may come up for some airlines? But Spohr said XLR is too niche doesn't see massive market. So who knows?


Is it adding another fleet type though? It is 787, 359, 777, 747-8 and 333 right now in the planning right? Could the A339 not replace the A333?
It doesn’t have to, but it “could”, could it not?
 
Opus99
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:31 pm

RvA wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
The 330neo is useless in this group. It doesn’t offer anything that the 350 and 787 family cannot offer and offer more efficiently. And that has always been it’s main problem.

LH ordering the 787s was just a very clear sign of that. I mean not only do they have 20 firm they have 20 options. Those 20 options may very well go on to Swiss and Austrian to sort out their wide body replacements. I just don’t see it if I’m honest.

Then it’s just adding another fleet type. Meaning 787,350,777X and 330neo. 787, 350 and 777X all have different roles to play in the group. 330neo has no other real value add. If there was no 787 then fine but I mean..

Maybe XLR may come up for some airlines? But Spohr said XLR is too niche doesn't see massive market. So who knows?


Is it adding another fleet type though? It is 787, 359, 777, 747-8 and 333 right now in the planning right? Could the A339 not replace the A333?
It doesn’t have to, but it “could”, could it not?

it could, but its more than necessary in reality, especially if they use more 787s to replace the 330s, that just cuts out a whole type.
 
VC10er
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:48 pm

This might be a silly question with the 777X coming, but would Boeing actually be able to fill a 747-8i order should any airline want them to take over A380 flying?
 
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vfw614
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:00 pm

As Lufthansa operates the A330/350 under a common type rating, it is not really two different types in every regard. Having an all-Airbus longhaul feet at one hub (MUC) might have some advantages.

I guess it will come down to how much Airbus can lower the price for the A330-900 if faced with a looming top-up order by Lufthansa with Boeing for more 787s
 
Scotron12
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:17 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
vfw614 wrote:
As Lufthansa operates the A330/350 under a common type rating, it is not really two different types in every regard. Having an all-Airbus longhaul feet at one hub (MUC) might have some advantages.

I guess it will come down to how much Airbus can lower the price for the A330-900 if faced with a looming top-up order by Lufthansa with Boeing for more 787s


Why is the A330NEO getting such disdain here?? If not for Covid, production and deliveries would be humming right now.

As it is, it is the 787 that is having issues, totally apart from Covid.

Reminds me of all the threads attacking the A380.
 
TeamLH
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:23 pm

VC10er wrote:
This might be a silly question with the 777X coming, but would Boeing actually be able to fill a 747-8i order should any airline want them to take over A380 flying?


No Airline wants them. The last ship sets were already build. Production ends.
 
Antarius
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:53 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
[photoid][/photoid]
vfw614 wrote:
As Lufthansa operates the A330/350 under a common type rating, it is not really two different types in every regard. Having an all-Airbus longhaul feet at one hub (MUC) might have some advantages.

I guess it will come down to how much Airbus can lower the price for the A330-900 if faced with a looming top-up order by Lufthansa with Boeing for more 787s


Why is the A330NEO getting such disdain here?? If not for Covid, production and deliveries would be humming right now.

As it is, it is the 787 that is having issues, totally apart from Covid.

Reminds me of all the threads attacking the A380.


It's getting disdain because the order book was weak long before COVID. Half the order book is vapor (AAX and Iran Air) and the rest is a paltry 150 frames. The 787 may have issues, but it's out sold the a330 neo by a factor of 5 and likely will continue to do so.

LH has clearly decided that the a359 and 787 are their future fleet. I don't know why that's hard to understand.

Acting like the a330 neo and the a380 were popular is desperately fitting the narrative to fit your agenda.
Last edited by Antarius on Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Antarius
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:00 pm

TeamLH wrote:
VC10er wrote:
This might be a silly question with the 777X coming, but would Boeing actually be able to fill a 747-8i order should any airline want them to take over A380 flying?


No Airline wants them. The last ship sets were already build. Production ends.


And to add, the suppliers have shut down production. So even if Boeing did want to make more, it's pretty much impossible.

I'm not sure why anyone would want a 748i when you can get a 777X or a35K
 
deltadudejg
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:55 pm

777luver wrote:
I wonder how long the A343s have left until they are retired


I question the same thing, curious what their lifespan is like.

Also wondering what the future fleet plans for OS is, there was talk previously of bringing the 787 into the Austrian fleet to replace the 767s and some of the 777 flights, but I wonder where this recent update places them in the spectrum. Would hate to see OS lose it's longhaul connections from VIE, would be awesome though if they expanded OS into newer leisure markets.
 
Opus99
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:06 am

deltadudejg wrote:
777luver wrote:
I wonder how long the A343s have left until they are retired


I question the same thing, curious what their lifespan is like.

Also wondering what the future fleet plans for OS is, there was talk previously of bringing the 787 into the Austrian fleet to replace the 767s and some of the 777 flights, but I wonder where this recent update places them in the spectrum. Would hate to see OS lose it's longhaul connections from VIE, would be awesome though if they expanded OS into newer leisure markets.

Right, thanks for pointing out
 
Opus99
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:42 am

Opus99 wrote:
deltadudejg wrote:
777luver wrote:
I wonder how long the A343s have left until they are retired


I question the same thing, curious what their lifespan is like.

Also wondering what the future fleet plans for OS is, there was talk previously of bringing the 787 into the Austrian fleet to replace the 767s and some of the 777 flights, but I wonder where this recent update places them in the spectrum. Would hate to see OS lose it's longhaul connections from VIE, would be awesome though if they expanded OS into newer leisure markets.

Right, thanks for pointing out

Ignore. Wrong response
 
BOAC911
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Re: Takeaways from Lufthansa Group's Annual Press Conference

Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:30 am

Market developments are currently very difficult if not impossible to predict. They are simply too many unknown variables. The industry has suffered an unprecedented shock. Planning conservatively is of course prudent, but who's to say what is right? In a year or two from now, airlines may find themselves racing against time to ramp up operations and begging for more capacity.

Trade shows, conventions will come back. Video conferencing cannot replace everything. New business is made with handshakes.

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