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catiii
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Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:15 am

Looks like things are about to get rocky between ALPA and Delta. The pilots were not happy with the retention bonuses paid out at DL. See below from Jason Ambrosi who leads the Delta pilot union.

March 1, 2021
Dear Fellow Pilot:

Over this past weekend, we learned that Delta distributed bonuses to management employees up to the Senior Vice President level. Some of these bonuses are very significant sums. As the Company has not yet reached its zero daily cash burn target, and many employees are still shouldering financial burdens brought on by the pandemic, we find these bonuses are ill-timed and tone-deaf – especially for a management team that has stressed the need for shared sacrifices throughout the pandemic.

With that said, management’s optimism reinforces our belief that the opportunity to cement gains for all Delta pilots is on the horizon. Recent company announcements further suggest management believes we are at a turning point in the pandemic. Flight Operations has stated it plans to post an Advance Entitlement this week to bring back the “Affected Pilots” with a goal of returning all to active status by October. Meanwhile, the Senate is considering a third PSP extension to help airlines through the end of this pandemic. ALPA President Joe DePete will be testifying in support of this effort on Capitol Hill tomorrow.

Since I took office on January 1, the pandemic has been steadily retreating, and the revival of our industry has begun. I have directed our team to actively prepare for capitalizing on any and all opportunities. Whether it’s resuming Section 6 talks or pursuing other innovative ways to add value back to our PWA, your union is ready.

Last month’s polling was the first step in this process. Next week, the Delta MEC will convene for a Regular Meeting in Atlanta. I’m looking forward to discussing these developments with your elected representatives as we press forward on securing contractual improvements. Our airline is poised to return to its industry-leading position; your union is, too.

In unity,
 
hayzel777
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:57 am

DL had no choice but to pay out the retention bonus. If you look at their careers website, the amount of managerial positions available is just astonishing. From friends that work in DL corporate, the number of people resigning is outrageous right now. The company was able to justify a slightly lower salary for those positions using flight benefits to make up the difference, but that became a moot point with a pandemic. People can make so much more elsewhere and it's not like the job market has come to a grinding halt.

DL is not the only airline being hit by this. UA, F9, WN, AA etc. are all dealing with the same issue within their corporate ranks beyond the involuntary layoffs that occurred last year.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:04 am

At the end of the day, Delta and airlines must be competitive in the marketplace with white-collar jobs that are incredibly transferable across industries.

Airlines for a long time already have had difficulty competing for the best and brightest which has only gotten worse during this COVID downturn while much of the remainder of U.S. industries have not missed a beat making them even more attractive places to be.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:13 am

What exactly have they done to deservebonus? They are bleeding ions every day and they have the worst domestic onboard offering of any US airline right now. Even Spirit will serve you a soda.
 
B757Forever
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:25 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
What exactly have they done to deservebonus? They are bleeding ions every day and they have the worst domestic onboard offering of any US airline right now. Even Spirit will serve you a soda.


Calling the payout a bonus is misleading. The typical merit position at DL has an "at risk" component of about 20% as part of their pay. In good years, they get base pay + at-risk pay + profit sharing. All Delta employees hours (and pay) was reduced by 25% from April through December. The merit employees who received this money gave up the at-risk money plus 25% of their base pay. They gave up a disproportionate amount of pay relative to other employees. DL saw fit to try to make it right. I'm OK with that.
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Varsity1
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:33 am

B757Forever wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
What exactly have they done to deservebonus? They are bleeding ions every day and they have the worst domestic onboard offering of any US airline right now. Even Spirit will serve you a soda.


Calling the payout a bonus is misleading. The typical merit position at DL has an "at risk" component of about 20% as part of their pay. In good years, they get base pay + at-risk pay + profit sharing. All Delta employees hours (and pay) was reduced by 25% from April through December. The merit employees who received this money gave up the at-risk money plus 25% of their base pay. They gave up a disproportionate amount of pay relative to other employees. DL saw fit to try to make it right. I'm OK with that.



You think last year was a good year?

It's an absurd move by delta management.
 
B757Forever
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:39 am

Varsity1 wrote:
B757Forever wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
What exactly have they done to deservebonus? They are bleeding ions every day and they have the worst domestic onboard offering of any US airline right now. Even Spirit will serve you a soda.


Calling the payout a bonus is misleading. The typical merit position at DL has an "at risk" component of about 20% as part of their pay. In good years, they get base pay + at-risk pay + profit sharing. All Delta employees hours (and pay) was reduced by 25% from April through December. The merit employees who received this money gave up the at-risk money plus 25% of their base pay. They gave up a disproportionate amount of pay relative to other employees. DL saw fit to try to make it right. I'm OK with that.



You think last year was a good year?

It's an absurd move by delta management.


Allow me to add some clarification. I was speaking mainly about the lower-level managers (baggage supervisors, ramp supervisors etc) who went to work every day of the pandemic and worked harder than ever before. I wasn't speaking for the directors and VPs, most of which worked from home. I should have been a bit clearer.
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n9801f
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:43 am

LAXintl wrote:
At the end of the day, Delta and airlines must be competitive in the marketplace with white-collar jobs that are incredibly transferable across industries.

Airlines for a long time already have had difficulty competing for the best and brightest which has only gotten worse during this COVID downturn while much of the remainder of U.S. industries have not missed a beat making them even more attractive places to be.


Fully agreed. In the general case it's true that companies compete for the best talent.

However Delta doesn't hire very much from outside the company, except for VP level. Instead, for corporate, it focuses on hiring and retaining undergraduates, or occasionally MBA's, from state schools in the South. These people have fewer alternatives than Harvard MBA's.
 
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janders
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:14 am

Sadly, I have seen a ton of former colleagues exit airlines voluntarily and take up jobs in other industries due to low comparative pay and industries' unpredictability.

If you have a decent college education you can likely fit into and move around a host of professions in many industries.

Airlines have long had a professional brain drain, which I believe Covid crisis has made even more obvious.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:04 am

hayzel777 wrote:
DL had no choice but to pay out the retention bonus. If you look at their careers website, the amount of managerial positions available is just astonishing. From friends that work in DL corporate, the number of people resigning is outrageous right now. The company was able to justify a slightly lower salary for those positions using flight benefits to make up the difference, but that became a moot point with a pandemic. People can make so much more elsewhere and it's not like the job market has come to a grinding halt.

DL is not the only airline being hit by this. UA, F9, WN, AA etc. are all dealing with the same issue within their corporate ranks beyond the involuntary layoffs that occurred last year.

The meltdowns of the last few weeks has highlighted just how deep the cuts at corporate went. At my former regional, mid management types have been covering endless 12 hour shifts since this began, and were already nearing burnout. Things have improved just enough that when the SHTF, the bodies just weren’t there to cover it, and rebuild quickly. Even maintenance and training have begun spooling up, with bottlenecks to prove it.

Contrary to popular belief, many people just don’t sit at home in the dark, waiting for a call from the company that may never come. They move on, or find something less stressful to do. Pilots were in short supply across the board before this began, and some have found other gigs flying cargo, or corporate.

( One DL pilot I know took the extended leave, then fell into a gig flying a guy’s Citation single pilot. He loves the job, and gets to be home most nights. When the owner vacations, the wife is allowed to come along. Most importantly, he isn’t commuting to Atlanta, or doing double deadheads that get delayed to the Northeast. How do you beat that?)

Mechanics have found new jobs with corporate or GA, places that were crying for bodies before COVID. HQ staff in good economy areas have moved on as well. They may eventually come back, but with things still in flux, I think the carriers are loath to add to the head counts for summer, only to face layoffs again in the fall.

The spring and summer storm season could be very “Interesting” this year.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:19 pm

B757Forever wrote:
Allow me to add some clarification. I was speaking mainly about the lower-level managers (baggage supervisors, ramp supervisors etc) who went to work every day of the pandemic and worked harder than ever before.


The people listed above aren't getting these bonuses.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
cvsirls
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:43 pm

NWAESC wrote:
B757Forever wrote:
Allow me to add some clarification. I was speaking mainly about the lower-level managers (baggage supervisors, ramp supervisors etc) who went to work every day of the pandemic and worked harder than ever before.


The people listed above aren't getting these bonuses.
I believe he is referring to Osms, which are in station ACS supervisors, and Fsms, which are in base flight attendant supervisors. These are merit employees and are the lowest tier managers who receive at risk pay.

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Max Q
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:53 pm

Kind of curious as to whether these types of bonuses are authorized under the terms of the CARE’S act ?
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alasizon
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:05 pm

Max Q wrote:
Kind of curious as to whether these types of bonuses are authorized under the terms of the CARE’S act ?


As long as they are deemed merit pay/incentive pay there is nothing that violates CARES/PSP. Outright calling it a bonus makes it a little cloudy when it comes to fund allocation but still not against the bill as written.

As tone deaf as it appears, I totally get DL's reasoning for doing this. Everyone at the GM level and below at DL (and all the carriers for that matter) has had to take on more work and responsibility and many of them received no added compensation or bonus for that, it was just lumped into their job description and their raises for 2020 (based on 2019 performance) were foregone. I'm not sure I agree with six figure payouts for VPs but for GM level and lower it makes sense with retaining talent and trying to delay the inevitable burnout that is coming.
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CALMSP
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:07 pm

well, if you can hand out bonuses to staff, there must be absolutely zero need for tax payer funded dollars to fund your payroll. Terrible look on DL's part.
 
slider
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:09 pm

NWAESC wrote:
B757Forever wrote:
Allow me to add some clarification. I was speaking mainly about the lower-level managers (baggage supervisors, ramp supervisors etc) who went to work every day of the pandemic and worked harder than ever before.


The people listed above aren't getting these bonuses.


Yes, they are. I have friends at grades 7, 8, 9, etc and they all got it. Sort of like a snapback since they gave up pay.

If I'm not mistaken, the pilot group didn't take cuts, concessions, nor any furloughs.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:12 pm

OSMs are grade 7S. This program addresses Grade 8 and up.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
B757Forever
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:19 pm

slider wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
B757Forever wrote:
Allow me to add some clarification. I was speaking mainly about the lower-level managers (baggage supervisors, ramp supervisors etc) who went to work every day of the pandemic and worked harder than ever before.


The people listed above aren't getting these bonuses.


Yes, they are. I have friends at grades 7, 8, 9, etc and they all got it. Sort of like a snapback since they gave up pay.

If I'm not mistaken, the pilot group didn't take cuts, concessions, nor any furloughs.


I can tell you with 100% certainty that Grade 9 in TechOps did not get a payout. The payouts were to grades 7-8-10-11-12 and above. Grade 9 has historically been an outlier and not included in MIP because it is tied to the AMT pay scale. This was done because there would be little incentive to advance from Lead AMT to Duty Manager if there was a risk you would make less.
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NWAESC
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:38 pm

B757Forever wrote:
I can tell you with 100% certainty that Grade 9 in TechOps did not get a payout. The payouts were to grades 7-8-10-11-12 and above. Grade 9 has historically been an outlier and not included in MIP because it is tied to the AMT pay scale. This was done because there would be little incentive to advance from Lead AMT to Duty Manager if there was a risk you would make less.


This is also why Grade 7S exists in ACS. Why become an OSM if it meant taking a pay cut?

All of that aside, IMHO this move erases a good 10-12 years of labor goodwill.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
CobaltScar
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:41 pm

LAXintl wrote:
At the end of the day, Delta and airlines must be competitive in the marketplace with white-collar jobs that are incredibly transferable across industries.

Airlines for a long time already have had difficulty competing for the best and brightest which has only gotten worse during this COVID downturn while much of the remainder of U.S. industries have not missed a beat making them even more attractive places to be.


Its going to affect all levels at the airlines. Once min wage gets increased to 15 more broadly, the airlines are going to have a lot more trouble finding anything approaching quality candidates for a wide range of positions. What kinds are going to tolerate living in a crash pad, making less than minimum wage per month? When they can remain at home, work solid hours and make more.

The promise of flight benefits when you are struggling financially only goes so far, especially when the price of actual confirmed seats is so low.
 
Packson
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:16 pm

Pilots didn't take an hourly pay cut but their hours were certainly cut, which is in essence a reduction in pay. Also approximately 800 captains went to lower paid first officer positions so there's that (roughly 50K PAY CUT). The loss of PS hurt everyone not receiving MIP. The best part is when in section 6 negotiations PS is part of your pay "Bastian" then whe PS is not Paid out, there's no mention of it as a defecto pay cut.
 
deltairlines
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 4:41 pm

slider wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
B757Forever wrote:
Allow me to add some clarification. I was speaking mainly about the lower-level managers (baggage supervisors, ramp supervisors etc) who went to work every day of the pandemic and worked harder than ever before.


The people listed above aren't getting these bonuses.


Yes, they are. I have friends at grades 7, 8, 9, etc and they all got it. Sort of like a snapback since they gave up pay.

If I'm not mistaken, the pilot group didn't take cuts, concessions, nor any furloughs.


I can tell you that Grades 7/9 (and 5/6) at the GO did not get any of this. I know a couple of friends in these categories at the GO that have landed new jobs in the past week after all this happened.

What n9801f said has largely become the norm at Delta corporate - it's all about hiring undergrads into Grade 5 (analyst) roles and have them become Grade 6s in a couple of years (Sr Analyst) and then go up from there. Same with the MBAs - hire them into Grade 7s (largely Specialist at the GO) and then they become Grade 9s (Project Manager/Project Leader) a year later and then into management after that.

There's not a ton of hiring off the street at Delta, which keeps people at corporate pretty locked in and loyal to staying. The people I know that all left had a good bit of experience outside of Delta before coming in.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:04 pm

CALMSP wrote:
well, if you can hand out bonuses to staff, there must be absolutely zero need for tax payer funded dollars to fund your payroll. Terrible look on DL's part.


That's the kind of remark that might cause one to question how much experience you have hiring salaried professional employees. Under the CARES Act employees got job, wage rate, benefit, and contract protections. It might be interesting to see how far up and down the ranks these bonuses went, how many got a bonus of this type at all, and median bonus, to see just how much (or little) was spent.

Of course, DL could have played this the UA/AA way and just furloughed 10K people or more each. Would that have made you happier? Anybody want to argue that would better sustain labor productivity per person?
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:17 pm

DL is a well run company. One of the best run companies in the world. Their mgmt pay is far from outrageous. It's actually extremely low.

DL management did as well as could be expected in terms of job performance, helping secure a massive federal bailout.

The opinion of pilot groups is only relevant if we are talking about how to fly jets. That is their expertise and their job function. Compensation is not their expertise. Their opinion on management compensation means exactly zero.
 
TW870
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:25 pm

LAXintl wrote:
At the end of the day, Delta and airlines must be competitive in the marketplace with white-collar jobs that are incredibly transferable across industries.

Airlines for a long time already have had difficulty competing for the best and brightest which has only gotten worse during this COVID downturn while much of the remainder of U.S. industries have not missed a beat making them even more attractive places to be.


While this is true, the context of this type of free market thinking overwhelms its legitimacy. Given how well securities markets have done, and given that so many white collar workers can work from home, the pandemic has amplified the already massive gap between rich and poor in the U.S. Providing an increase in compensation for upper management while front line employees either take big physical risks working during the pandemic or get laid off looks and feels terrible to most observers. My advice would be for Delta to just hold firm and wait until the pandemic improves. Let upper management make massive, massive returns in the markets, keep everyone's pay the same, and work on maintaining trust with customers and employees who have suffered terribly during our worst national emergency since World War II. If some managers take off for greener pastures, let them go. Once things start to improve in the summer/fall, then we can readjust compensation.
 
hayzel777
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:30 pm

TW870 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
At the end of the day, Delta and airlines must be competitive in the marketplace with white-collar jobs that are incredibly transferable across industries.

Airlines for a long time already have had difficulty competing for the best and brightest which has only gotten worse during this COVID downturn while much of the remainder of U.S. industries have not missed a beat making them even more attractive places to be.


While this is true, the context of this type of free market thinking overwhelms its legitimacy. Given how well securities markets have done, and given that so many white collar workers can work from home, the pandemic has amplified the already massive gap between rich and poor in the U.S. Providing an increase in compensation for upper management while front line employees either take big physical risks working during the pandemic or get laid off looks and feels terrible to most observers. My advice would be for Delta to just hold firm and wait until the pandemic improves. Let upper management make massive, massive returns in the markets, keep everyone's pay the same, and work on maintaining trust with customers and employees who have suffered terribly during our worst national emergency since World War II. If some managers take off for greener pastures, let them go. Once things start to improve in the summer/fall, then we can readjust compensation.

The company cannot just let the managers bleed off. The work will not get done or the higher/lower manager will have to pick up the slack, which is not possible at the moment with the way they've been stretched thanks to the involuntary layoffs/voluntary separation. They need the corporate guys/gals just as much as they need the front-line employees. The whole reason behind this "bonus" is mainly a retention tool.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:35 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
DL is a well run company. One of the best run companies in the world. Their mgmt pay is far from outrageous. It's actually extremely low.

DL management did as well as could be expected in terms of job performance, helping secure a massive federal bailout.

The opinion of pilot groups is only relevant if we are talking about how to fly jets. That is their expertise and their job function. Compensation is not their expertise. Their opinion on management compensation means exactly zero.


While you are right overall and the third paragraph applies to most of the DALPA group, never forget that union leadership are compensation experts - it’s their job to secure more when possible, after all.
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NCAD95
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:47 pm

Everybody should get a bonus or nobody should get a bonus. I'd have to argue that higher paid employees could much easier have weathered the storm than lower end employees. If Delta wanted to do the right thing by it's employees who showed up to work during the pandemic a percentage of one's wages should have been chosen and everyone should have received the same percentage based on their wages. With no front line employees there is no company to mange no matter how many expert mangers you have. In my opinion this is just the self important taking care of their own once again while frontline employees are basically told to suck it up and be grateful they are gainfully employed.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:53 pm

Gosh, I remember when a bonus was earned when the company did well and made a profit.
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PA727
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:40 pm

NWAESC wrote:
B757Forever wrote:
I can tell you with 100% certainty that Grade 9 in TechOps did not get a payout. The payouts were to grades 7-8-10-11-12 and above. Grade 9 has historically been an outlier and not included in MIP because it is tied to the AMT pay scale. This was done because there would be little incentive to advance from Lead AMT to Duty Manager if there was a risk you would make less.


This is also why Grade 7S exists in ACS. Why become an OSM if it meant taking a pay cut?

All of that aside, IMHO this move erases a good 10-12 years of labor goodwill.


Some might contend using this one decision - for which Delta may well have an obligation - to throw away 10-12 years of good will is even more short-sighted. Maybe if adults on both sides could move past useless hyperbole and negotiate in good faith. But what’s the point. Pandemic or not, there’s no cure for the sickness of me.
 
kiowa
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:00 pm

I have no problem with bonuses paid from corporate profits but NOT when the company is sucking up vast tax dollars.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:10 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
DL is a well run company. One of the best run companies in the world. Their mgmt pay is far from outrageous. It's actually extremely low.

DL management did as well as could be expected in terms of job performance, helping secure a massive federal bailout.

The opinion of pilot groups is only relevant if we are talking about how to fly jets. That is their expertise and their job function. Compensation is not their expertise. Their opinion on management compensation means exactly zero.



You might have the most ridiculous post of the year.


Nevermind the pilots, how about the tax payers that are paying these bonuses??

The same tax payers that explicitly forbid bonuses in this bailout?
 
TW870
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:41 pm

hayzel777 wrote:
TW870 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
At the end of the day, Delta and airlines must be competitive in the marketplace with white-collar jobs that are incredibly transferable across industries.

Airlines for a long time already have had difficulty competing for the best and brightest which has only gotten worse during this COVID downturn while much of the remainder of U.S. industries have not missed a beat making them even more attractive places to be.


While this is true, the context of this type of free market thinking overwhelms its legitimacy. Given how well securities markets have done, and given that so many white collar workers can work from home, the pandemic has amplified the already massive gap between rich and poor in the U.S. Providing an increase in compensation for upper management while front line employees either take big physical risks working during the pandemic or get laid off looks and feels terrible to most observers. My advice would be for Delta to just hold firm and wait until the pandemic improves. Let upper management make massive, massive returns in the markets, keep everyone's pay the same, and work on maintaining trust with customers and employees who have suffered terribly during our worst national emergency since World War II. If some managers take off for greener pastures, let them go. Once things start to improve in the summer/fall, then we can readjust compensation.

The company cannot just let the managers bleed off. The work will not get done or the higher/lower manager will have to pick up the slack, which is not possible at the moment with the way they've been stretched thanks to the involuntary layoffs/voluntary separation. They need the corporate guys/gals just as much as they need the front-line employees. The whole reason behind this "bonus" is mainly a retention tool.


The problem is that the wider context of 500,000 dead people makes it an ugly retention tool when you only give it to the highest income earners at the company. As NCAD95 said above, if it is that urgent that they retain particular managers, then give the bonus to everyone. If a flight attendant or a customer service agent has the courage and the decency to take a big personal risk to help keep core infrastructure running during the pandemic, then the least top executives can do is keep status quo compensation while their wider personal portfolios make it rain money. Delta has done an overall fantastic job getting through this. Keep that good work up - rather than changing compensation during a crisis in a way that makes the crisis more hurtful.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:44 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
DL is a well run company. One of the best run companies in the world. Their mgmt pay is far from outrageous. It's actually extremely low.

DL management did as well as could be expected in terms of job performance, helping secure a massive federal bailout.

The opinion of pilot groups is only relevant if we are talking about how to fly jets. That is their expertise and their job function. Compensation is not their expertise. Their opinion on management compensation means exactly zero.



You might have the most ridiculous post of the year.


Nevermind the pilots, how about the tax payers that are paying these bonuses??

The same tax payers that explicitly forbid bonuses in this bailout?


As a taxpayer, I am mad about the bailout, which is an example of privilege and corruption. There was never a danger that airline capacity would be too low. That was never a realistic possibility whatsoever. But it is DL mgmt's job to keep the airline running in good shape, and they did. Political lobbying is part of the job, something they teach in business schools now. Clearly, it paid off here. And they did other things well too.

I give DL mgmt high marks, and DL pilots also deserve high marks too for their professional skills. Even with regard to pilot compensation, as Aaron747 pointed out. DL pilots are good at that too. This letter is an example advanced pilot union tactics, yanking the chain they have that goes to the airline's throat, as if mgmt comp is up to them, not the shareholders who own the airline. What a circus, gotta love it.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Delta MEC Letter

Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:31 pm

From a recent Charles Schwab article -

"A zombie company, in its simplest form, is one that isn’t generating enough income to cover the annual interest payments on its debts. With interest rates so low, these zombies have stayed “alive” by refinancing their debts at increasingly lower rates, or simply tacking on more debt to keep breathing. But with rates rising, zombies may be forced to refinance at higher rates, which could pose problems.

The top 10 companies (which have almost half of zombie debt) are:
General Electric $78 Billion rated BBB+
Boeing $65 Billion rated BBB-
Dell $ 54 Billion
PG&E $49 Billion
American Airlines $41 Billion rated B-
Delta Airlines $ 36 Billion rated BB
Lumen Technology $ 32 Billion
Kraft Heinz $ 28 Billion
United Airlines $ $33 Billion rated B+
Carnival Cruise $28 Billion

Seems to me the bond ratings have to be taking into account a Government put i.e. the US won't let them fail. These 10 companies have 40% of ALL debt owned by "zombie" companies. I'm not sure how bonuses or pay raises are even on the radar.
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    UPlog
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    Re: Delta MEC Letter

    Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:50 pm

    Might seem counterintuitive, but during downtimes, companies need to double down on the retention of key employee groups.

    While the optics might be bad, I don't begrudge Delta trying to give many levels of management payments to try to make them whole for lost income.

    As others mentioned there are thousands of positions at Delta or any airline where the skill sets easily fit into other industries. Unlike previous recessions, the COVID economic damage has largely been focused on travel and hospitality, while many other industries continue to flourish and eager to hire talent. I've known a fair number of 'white collar' airline folks that have left for better-paying/stable careers in fields like insurance, consumer goods, financial services, tech, etc.

    As far as ALPA, its their job to try to advocate for their members and create smoke even if there is not much of a fire.
    I fly your boxes
     
    777Mech
    Posts: 1143
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    Re: Delta MEC Letter

    Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:23 pm

    IMO, DL has way too many chiefs and not enough Indians. It's so lopsided it's not even funny.

    hayzel777 wrote:
    DL had no choice but to pay out the retention bonus. If you look at their careers website, the amount of managerial positions available is just astonishing. From friends that work in DL corporate, the number of people resigning is outrageous right now. The company was able to justify a slightly lower salary for those positions using flight benefits to make up the difference, but that became a moot point with a pandemic. People can make so much more elsewhere and it's not like the job market has come to a grinding halt.

    DL is not the only airline being hit by this. UA, F9, WN, AA etc. are all dealing with the same issue within their corporate ranks beyond the involuntary layoffs that occurred last year.


    You're seeing a ton of management openings because

    1) management took the package at a higher rate because they figured they were eventually going to get cut.

    2) no sane DL scale employee is going to make the jump to management in these times because again, DL has no qualms about cutting management.
     
    deltairlines
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    Re: Delta MEC Letter

    Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:33 pm

    777Mech wrote:
    IMO, DL has way too many chiefs and not enough Indians. It's so lopsided it's not even funny.

    hayzel777 wrote:
    DL had no choice but to pay out the retention bonus. If you look at their careers website, the amount of managerial positions available is just astonishing. From friends that work in DL corporate, the number of people resigning is outrageous right now. The company was able to justify a slightly lower salary for those positions using flight benefits to make up the difference, but that became a moot point with a pandemic. People can make so much more elsewhere and it's not like the job market has come to a grinding halt.

    DL is not the only airline being hit by this. UA, F9, WN, AA etc. are all dealing with the same issue within their corporate ranks beyond the involuntary layoffs that occurred last year.


    You're seeing a ton of management openings because

    1) management took the package at a higher rate because they figured they were eventually going to get cut.

    2) no sane DL scale employee is going to make the jump to management in these times because again, DL has no qualms about cutting management.


    Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

    Ever since Ed took over, the number of chiefs in place has exploded at Delta corporate. When I joined, there was 1 to 2 levels (a combo of an 8/10/11) between an Individual Contributor and a Director level (and in most groups, that was a Director OR a Managing Director). Now, an IC pretty much reports into a 8 or 10 (Manager), who reports into an 11 (GM), who reports into a 12 (Director), who goes into a Managing Director, who goes into a VP. The number of 8 and 10s increased slightly, but the 11s and above exploded. It really came from times were great under Ed and they wanted to retain talent, that as has been said upthread, would have looked to leave for better pay had Delta not done something - thus, new GM and above positions were made to promote these people into these spots. Great for retaining talent that they want to keep; problematic when times get tough and stuff hits the fan, which is now.
     
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    NWAESC
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    Re: Delta MEC Letter

    Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:46 pm

    +1

    There are 8 levels of mgmt. between me and the C-Suite. For a company that prides itself on "flexibility," that's a lot of layers.

    Regarding the idea of retention: It's worth noting that for months, the company told employees that separating from the company was the single biggest thing they could do to save the company. Taking an unpaid leave was a close second.
    "Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
     
    deltal1011man
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    Re: Delta MEC Letter

    Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:15 pm

    777Mech wrote:
    IMO, DL has way too many chiefs and not enough Indians. It's so lopsided it's not even funny.

    hayzel777 wrote:
    DL had no choice but to pay out the retention bonus. If you look at their careers website, the amount of managerial positions available is just astonishing. From friends that work in DL corporate, the number of people resigning is outrageous right now. The company was able to justify a slightly lower salary for those positions using flight benefits to make up the difference, but that became a moot point with a pandemic. People can make so much more elsewhere and it's not like the job market has come to a grinding halt.

    DL is not the only airline being hit by this. UA, F9, WN, AA etc. are all dealing with the same issue within their corporate ranks beyond the involuntary layoffs that occurred last year.


    You're seeing a ton of management openings because

    1) management took the package at a higher rate because they figured they were eventually going to get cut.

    2) no sane DL scale employee is going to make the jump to management in these times because again, DL has no qualms about cutting management.

    perfect post.

    Its going to be next to impossible to get an AMT or Lead to take open foreman jobs.
     
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    usxguy
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    Re: Delta MEC Letter

    Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:56 am

    Rumblings, that aren't in the headlines, is that the extra pay went to people whose pay was involuntary cut 25 - 50%; and that the snap-back was about a 20% one-time hit.

    so..... that sorta makes this a non-news item.
    xx
     
    DL777200LR
    Posts: 157
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    Re: Delta MEC Letter

    Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:45 am

    [twoid][/twoid]
    usxguy wrote:
    Rumblings, that aren't in the headlines, is that the extra pay went to people whose pay was involuntary cut 25 - 50%; and that the snap-back was about a 20% one-time hit.

    so..... that sorta makes this a non-news item.


    Exactly. Delta stated the “bonus” was to get those in management that initially had their pay reduced over 25% to get a 1 time Payment to get their pay to only a 25% reduction like all front line employees took. Obviously the word bonus makes it sound bad but reading the entire memo is equally important.
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    Aaron747
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    Re: Delta MEC Letter

    Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:52 am

    usxguy wrote:
    Rumblings, that aren't in the headlines, is that the extra pay went to people whose pay was involuntary cut 25 - 50%; and that the snap-back was about a 20% one-time hit.

    so..... that sorta makes this a non-news item.


    So now the question is: did the union know that and mislead or were they misinformed about the nature of the bonuses?
    If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
     
    Packson
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    Re: Delta MEC Letter

    Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:20 am

    Aaron747 wrote:
    usxguy wrote:
    Rumblings, that aren't in the headlines, is that the extra pay went to people whose pay was involuntary cut 25 - 50%; and that the snap-back was about a 20% one-time hit.

    so..... that sorta makes this a non-news item.


    So now the question is: did the union know that and mislead or were they misinformed about the nature of the bonuses?


    Damage control is what happened. The original email talked about bonuses as high as 250,000. Once the troops were restless another email came out with changes. Was the first email wrong or did they need to provide cover?
     
    burnsie28
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    Re: Delta MEC Letter

    Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:54 am

    B757Forever wrote:
    TTailedTiger wrote:
    What exactly have they done to deservebonus? They are bleeding ions every day and they have the worst domestic onboard offering of any US airline right now. Even Spirit will serve you a soda.


    Calling the payout a bonus is misleading. The typical merit position at DL has an "at risk" component of about 20% as part of their pay. In good years, they get base pay + at-risk pay + profit sharing. All Delta employees hours (and pay) was reduced by 25% from April through December. The merit employees who received this money gave up the at-risk money plus 25% of their base pay. They gave up a disproportionate amount of pay relative to other employees. DL saw fit to try to make it right. I'm OK with that.


    Slight correction, the "at-risk" is only manager positions (as some have mentioned above) which would include 8/10/11/Director and above and other executive positions. These were the categories that got these one-time payouts. Grades 3-7 and 9 are not eligible for these.

    The unions point is that it is ill-timed and tone-deaf, especially when there was no explanation for several days and the news sources broke it to employees before. Also the argument has been, that's exactly that, these payouts are "at-risk", which a pandemic could be considered as such. They "at-risk" portion is tied into profit sharing in some ways as these positions do not get the typical profit sharing payouts (certain % of pay). Considering that some of these amounts were reportedly up to $250,000 in some cases with the minimum base being $8,000 it doesn't look good. Nor did the letter sent out that reminded people that Bastian gave up his salary (which can then be a tax write-off) but naturally, like most senior executive pay that is made up in various stock options etc.

    hayzel777 wrote:
    DL had no choice but to pay out the retention bonus. If you look at their careers website, the amount of managerial positions available is just astonishing. From friends that work in DL corporate, the number of people resigning is outrageous right now. The company was able to justify a slightly lower salary for those positions using flight benefits to make up the difference, but that became a moot point with a pandemic.


    It's a moot point regardless. Only used for convenience to say it was part of your benefits requires one to travel a specific amount, which to make up the difference in market rate in some positions from airlines to market rate job description is far more than many top fliers even spend in a year on business travel. Pre-pandemic trying to even non-rev most places was impossible, especially when you are not travelling alone. They also previously liked to slide in "profit sharing" rate from the previous year as your total compensation in an offer.
     
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    NCAD95
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    Re: Delta MEC Letter

    Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:58 pm

    I'm confused about this retention, brain drain and staying competitive as justification for these bonuses being distributed. It's a well documented fact that Delta is one of the best companies in the United States if not the world to work for. You mean to tell me these employees can not stand by such a great run company on so many levels for a year or two until this crisis passes just to stay employed but a company that has a reputation of taking such good care of it's work force. If I were Delta management I'd show them the door for having so little loyalty towards a company that has always been there for them at every turn rather than throwing money at them to stay .
     
    WayexTDI
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    Re: Delta MEC Letter

    Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:20 pm

    kiowa wrote:
    I have no problem with bonuses paid from corporate profits but NOT when the company is sucking up vast tax dollars.

    That's capitalism for you: privatized profits, but socialized debt.
     
    alasizon
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    Re: Delta MEC Letter

    Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:53 pm

    NCAD95 wrote:
    I'm confused about this retention, brain drain and staying competitive as justification for these bonuses being distributed. It's a well documented fact that Delta is one of the best companies in the United States if not the world to work for. You mean to tell me these employees can not stand by such a great run company on so many levels for a year or two until this crisis passes just to stay employed but a company that has a reputation of taking such good care of it's work force. If I were Delta management I'd show them the door for having so little loyalty towards a company that has always been there for them at every turn rather than throwing money at them to stay .


    "Best" to work for differs from person to person and sometimes compensation has to enter into the equation, particularly during down times when people are being asked to do more for less. This is particularly true at the Sr. Analyst and Manager levels where skills transfer pretty well across the board and even for the more senior station leaders during periods of extended challenge in the industry. Managing Directors and VPs.... not so much, typically they are invested at that point and don't leave the company although they may move around to different areas. DL is a great company as long as you drink the Kool-Aid, the second you stop or the Kool-Aid changes to a flavor you don't like, you're going to want either out or to add some more sugar (money) to the Kool-Aid again, particularly in non-people focused roles.

    I can tell you DL is not the only airline in the same position. AA and UA have also had compensation questions raised by members of middle management simply because there are better offers out there and as much as it shouldn't matter, Frontline employees are still getting most of their pay raises which can sting to those who took on the most new work for free.
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