Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Opus99
Topic Author
Posts: 2221
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:15 pm

https://twitter.com/davidshepardson/sta ... 66402?s=21

And that’s how you get business done.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 25397
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:17 pm

Per Jon Ostrower, looks like they are going for the 737MAX-7 with an order topping "100 firm orders plus significant options"

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 3392018433
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 497
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:23 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Per Jon Ostrower, looks like they are going for the 737MAX-7 with an order topping "100 firm orders plus significant options"

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 3392018433

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN2B22OQ
Reuters too
 
Runway765
Posts: 375
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:21 am

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:02 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Per Jon Ostrower, looks like they are going for the 737MAX-7 with an order topping "100 firm orders plus significant options"

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 3392018433

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN2B22OQ
Reuters too


And is anyone surprised?
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 25397
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:02 pm

From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Runway765
Posts: 375
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:21 am

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:08 pm

LAXintl wrote:


They said that might not be the final number though.
 
MavyWavyATR
Posts: 261
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:52 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:09 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Per Jon Ostrower, looks like they are going for the 737MAX-7 with an order topping "100 firm orders plus significant options"

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 3392018433

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN2B22OQ
Reuters too


Boeing must be pretty desperate for a MAX sale given the reported price tag.
 
9252fly
Posts: 1164
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:09 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Per Jon Ostrower, looks like they are going for the 737MAX-7 with an order topping "100 firm orders plus significant options"

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 3392018433


I don't think anyone could honestly say they're surprised the order went to Boeing, it was a foregone conclusion. For starters, there is no way Airbus could compete on pricing without doing it at significant loss, never mind the associated costs for WN to bring in a new type. I will admit had WN gone A220, it would have created a memorable moment in aviation aircraft order history and a thread too long to read.
 
PHLspecial
Posts: 890
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:11 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:11 pm

So it seems like WN will be the only operator with the Max 7 type. I'm not of WestJet is still has the type on order. Enough planes for Boeing to at least continue the line for the Max 7 type? Nice job on Boeing to not let this order slip. Regardless Airbus can still market the A220 in the U.S. but as of now Southwest wants the 737 only.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9603
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:16 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
So it seems like WN will be the only operator with the Max 7 type.


It's way too early to conclude that. It's not as if this is going to be the last MAX order or option exercise ever received.
 
SWADawg
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:43 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:27 pm

From an operational efficiency standpoint, this really is the only way Southwest could have gone. I think this is good news for both Southwest and Boeing. Glad we can finally put this “will Southwest buy an Aircraft other than the 737” to bed for awhile.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2953
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:29 pm

The A220 is a very nice comfortable aircraft but it just doesn't fit in at WN. They enjoy having their pilots be able to walk up to any plane at the gate and fly it away. Aircraft subs are a breeze.
 
PHLspecial
Posts: 890
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:11 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:31 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
So it seems like WN will be the only operator with the Max 7 type.


It's way too early to conclude that. It's not as if this is going to be the last MAX order or option exercise ever received.

I can't really come up with any airline that can utilize the Max 7. American and Delta have plenty of A319s, United has plenty of A319s and B737-700. Icelandair probably has better CASM with the Max 8, I have a hard time seeing a case for the Max 7 besides WN. I might be wrong in the future who knows.
 
DenverTed
Posts: 693
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:12 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:46 pm

How much does the -7 save over the -8? The cost of one flight attendant, the weight of 14' of fuselage (7000lbs?) which should be significant over the fleet over a number of years, plus landing fees for rated weight.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2283
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:50 pm

MavyWavyATR wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Per Jon Ostrower, looks like they are going for the 737MAX-7 with an order topping "100 firm orders plus significant options"

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 3392018433

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN2B22OQ
Reuters too


Boeing must be pretty desperate for a MAX sale given the reported price tag.

A reported price tag at $100 million each plane is not being desperate: that's the list price that's been quoted (bolding mine):
Each 737 MAX 7 carries a list price of roughly $100 million, though such jets usually sell for less than half their official value with typical market discounts, according to aircraft industry sources.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:58 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
MavyWavyATR wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:


Boeing must be pretty desperate for a MAX sale given the reported price tag.

A reported price tag at $100 million each plane is not being desperate: that's the list price that's been quoted (bolding mine):
Each 737 MAX 7 carries a list price of roughly $100 million, though such jets usually sell for less than half their official value with typical market discounts, according to aircraft industry sources.


Yup. That's just the book price and the "usual discount". There's no insight in the article about what actually was paid.

Regardless, Boeing is desperate for MAX sales given their white tail abundance. Any sale is a good one, so congrats to them if it comes through.
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 3216
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:09 am

Not much of a surprise, but here is the news.

Boeing Co is close to a multibillion-dollar deal to sell dozens of its 737 MAX 7 jets to Southwest Airlines Co, in potentially the company’s largest 737 MAX order since the aircraft’s safety ban was lifted, people familiar with the matter said on Wednesday.



https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... ce=twitter
 
User avatar
hOMSaR
Moderator
Posts: 2384
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:19 am

Note: Posts from the "Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order" thread related to today's order news have been moved to this thread.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 3216
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:23 am

Antarius wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
MavyWavyATR wrote:

Boeing must be pretty desperate for a MAX sale given the reported price tag.

A reported price tag at $100 million each plane is not being desperate: that's the list price that's been quoted (bolding mine):
Each 737 MAX 7 carries a list price of roughly $100 million, though such jets usually sell for less than half their official value with typical market discounts, according to aircraft industry sources.


Yup. That's just the book price and the "usual discount". There's no insight in the article about what actually was paid.

Regardless, Boeing is desperate for MAX sales given their white tail abundance. Any sale is a good one, so congrats to them if it comes through.


Considering this is for the MAX 7, this has no relation to whitetails.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9603
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:29 am

PHLspecial wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
So it seems like WN will be the only operator with the Max 7 type.


It's way too early to conclude that. It's not as if this is going to be the last MAX order or option exercise ever received.

I can't really come up with any airline that can utilize the Max 7. American and Delta have plenty of A319s, United has plenty of A319s and B737-700. Icelandair probably has better CASM with the Max 8, I have a hard time seeing a case for the Max 7 besides WN. I might be wrong in the future who knows.


Delta's 319s avg 19 years old, and the 320s 25 years. UA's 319s avg 19 years and they already have lot of MAXs on order.
 
Runway765
Posts: 375
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:21 am

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:04 am

What will be the final seat configuration for these? Will these end up replacing all the 73G’s or is WN going to prioritize 738/MAX8 going forward and the MAX7 will be smaller?
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 11864
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:08 am

Runway765 wrote:
What will be the final seat configuration for these? Will these end up replacing all the 73G’s or is WN going to prioritize 738/MAX8 going forward and the MAX7 will be smaller?

The Max 7 was basically sized to give WN 150 seats (so 3 FAs) with the same seat pitch as their 738/7M8s. Current 73G seat 143 with about an inch less pitch.

Going forward I imagine the 73G/Max7 will be smaller ratio of the overall fleet, although still significant in size.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:11 am

ikolkyo wrote:
Antarius wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
A reported price tag at $100 million each plane is not being desperate: that's the list price that's been quoted (bolding mine):


Yup. That's just the book price and the "usual discount". There's no insight in the article about what actually was paid.

Regardless, Boeing is desperate for MAX sales given their white tail abundance. Any sale is a good one, so congrats to them if it comes through.


Considering this is for the MAX 7, this has no relation to whitetails.


I didn't say that this was a white tail sale, just that the white tails are a reason that they need sales and cash flow.
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2953
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:25 am

Boeing couldn't afford to not win this order. It would have been game over for the Max if Boeing's best customer said no and went to Airbus.
 
iamlucky13
Posts: 1425
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:35 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:33 am

MavyWavyATR wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Per Jon Ostrower, looks like they are going for the 737MAX-7 with an order topping "100 firm orders plus significant options"

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 3392018433

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN2B22OQ
Reuters too


Boeing must be pretty desperate for a MAX sale given the reported price tag.


No price tag was reported. Only general comments on typical pricing.

It's not news that they are hungry for orders. I wouldn't say desperate though. The current MAX backlog, even with all of the cancellations and ASC 606 adjustments, would be 5-1/2 years of production even at their pre-grounding peak rate, which they are nowhere close to. It's over 8 years at their current rate target (31/month).

Obviously they want to build that backlog, not burn through it, but their biggest need right now is to get deliveries moving at a pace that brings their cash flow back to positive. I would expect Boeing to provide more flexibility on price the earlier Southwest is ready to start accepting deliveries.

Regardless, Boeing probably has more margin to give up on the 737 than Airbus does on the CSeries. If I understood right, Airbus reiterated in their annual earnings call that they're looking at the middle of the decade before the CSeries is generating positive cash flow, and they expect to burn several hundred million more Euros on it between now and then.

That fits with what Job Ostrower reported last month, based on details about Southwest's analysis he claimed to have seen - lower operating costs on the CSeries compared to the MAX-7. I don't know if that factored in operational flexibility issues or not, but the difference was big enough, I suspect that even if it still needed an adjustment for the operating impact of a mixed fleet type, there would still also be a purchase price liability necessary for the CSeries to lose out.

https://theaircurrent.com/scoops/southw ... -or-a220s/
(full article seems to currently be available without a subscription)
 
Spetsnaz55
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:38 am

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:39 am

MavyWavyATR wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Per Jon Ostrower, looks like they are going for the 737MAX-7 with an order topping "100 firm orders plus significant options"

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 3392018433

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN2B22OQ
Reuters too


Boeing must be pretty desperate for a MAX sale given the reported price tag.



Yes yes we get it, every single time a max is sold, Boeing is super desperate and sells at super cheap prices.
Last edited by Spetsnaz55 on Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
iamlucky13
Posts: 1425
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:35 pm

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:44 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Boeing couldn't afford to not win this order. It would have been game over for the Max if Boeing's best customer said no and went to Airbus.


This order is just for a ~150 passenger aircraft, so it was about whether or not they will continue forward with the MAX-7. Southwest has previously emphasized they are strongly committed to the MAX-8.

Another major airline introducing the CSeries would further erode the MAX's market share outlook, but the worst case is still that the MAX will continue to sell unless and until the long term narrowbody demand can be met without it.
 
eraugrad02
Posts: 741
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:12 am

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:08 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

It's way too early to conclude that. It's not as if this is going to be the last MAX order or option exercise ever received.

I can't really come up with any airline that can utilize the Max 7. American and Delta have plenty of A319s, United has plenty of A319s and B737-700. Icelandair probably has better CASM with the Max 8, I have a hard time seeing a case for the Max 7 besides WN. I might be wrong in the future who knows.


Delta's 319s avg 19 years old, and the 320s 25 years. UA's 319s avg 19 years and they already have lot of MAXs on order.

UAL was another air carrier I see ordering the MAX 7. Let's not forget that it was pull from Southwest and WestJet that made the design changes of the MAX 7 to bump up seating capacity. I knew the only thing keeping this big order from happening was an extending grounding. My guess will be UA and WJ will order these birds next. What I'm waiting to see is UA 737-MAX 10.
Desmond MacRae in ILM
 
Avgeek21
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:44 am

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:29 am

Any order of any magnitude is good for the industry. Irrespective of the manufacturer. In this case good for Boeing, Southwest and the entire supply chain. Next.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2953
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:35 am

Any word if CFM decided to play ball or did Boeing have to pull some finance tricks on their end to make the deal work?
 
Noshow
Posts: 2490
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:34 am

It would be good for Boeing and the MAX to see this happening with Southwest being a key customer not to be lost.
 
ELBOB
Posts: 374
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:56 am

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:42 am

SWADawg wrote:
From an operational efficiency standpoint, this really is the only way Southwest could have gone. I think this is good news for both Southwest and Boeing.


Well not really, because now they have to maintain separate procurement paths for the parts specific to the MAX. So for example you might need a different source vendor for the MLG uplocks, and stock them in appropriate locations based on fleet disposition, and have procedures to ensure that the correct type is fitted to the correct aircraft. So there is plenty of paperwork.

When you're ordering 150 of a type, maintenance commonality with existing types isn't really a big issue and in fact it might be better to have a complete delineation from existing types, to prevent any accidental use of inappropriate parts.
 
UA748i
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 11:53 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:53 am

LAXintl wrote:


Fleet replacement numbers, almost. These gonna replace any -700s?
 
User avatar
hOMSaR
Moderator
Posts: 2384
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:11 am

ELBOB wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
From an operational efficiency standpoint, this really is the only way Southwest could have gone. I think this is good news for both Southwest and Boeing.


Well not really, because now they have to maintain separate procurement paths for the parts specific to the MAX. So for example you might need a different source vendor for the MLG uplocks, and stock them in appropriate locations based on fleet disposition, and have procedures to ensure that the correct type is fitted to the correct aircraft. So there is plenty of paperwork.

When you're ordering 150 of a type, maintenance commonality with existing types isn't really a big issue and in fact it might be better to have a complete delineation from existing types, to prevent any accidental use of inappropriate parts.


Southwest already has plenty of MAXes on the property, with hundreds more on order (even before this announcement). They already have the procurement processes in place for MAX-specific parts. They already have the maintenance procedures in place to fit the correct part to the correct type. This is nothing new for Southwest, as they’ve had to manage that ever since they put the first 737-300 in service, diversifying from their fleet of 737-200s.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
KingOrGod
Posts: 191
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:19 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:02 am

Spetsnaz55 wrote:
MavyWavyATR wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:


Boeing must be pretty desperate for a MAX sale given the reported price tag.



Yes yes we get it, every single time a max is sold, Boeing is super desperate and sells at super cheap prices.


You summed it up well LOL.
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 3005
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:34 am

Boeing absolutely had to win the MAX-7 order over the C-Series. The MAX-7 was, literally, tailor made for WN. The whole MAX program was conceived around WN's desire to keep flying the 737. In terms of optics and confidence in the program it absolutely had to sell in significant numbers to WN. The A319neo is not a hot seller, but with 539 A220 orders this is less relevant for Airbus product line, overall.
The MAX is not a bad airplane in itself. But it is against some formidable competition in the A320neo, A321neo and C-Series. Not to mention that some MAX's are replacing beloved 757s, which will never go down well on Internet forums.
 
vfw614
Posts: 4008
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:36 am

One has to wonder if Airbus will in the future do the math if the investment in sales campaigns with the likes of Ryanair and Southwest is worth the lower profits Boeing will make on its sale with a nominal competitor in the picture... I seem to remember that Airbus refused to participate in US military sales campaigns at some point (or is this an urban legend?)

Polot wrote:
The Max 7 was basically sized to give WN 150 seats (so 3 FAs) with the same seat pitch as their 738/7M8s. Current 73G seat 143 with about an inch less pitch.


So it is basically more like a 737-400 than a 737-300/700. Maximum seating then Y160 (not that it would sense commercially, of course)?
 
marcelh
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:38 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Any word if CFM decided to play ball or did Boeing have to pull some finance tricks on their end to make the deal work?


Boeing is willing to do some more to secure a deal. Look what they did to get Hawaiian on board:
https://leehamnews.com/2018/02/20/boeing-displaces-airbus-hawaiian-wins-787-9-deal-airline-cancels-a330-800-order/

OK, not a B737MAX vs. A220, but it shows Boeing will do a lot to prevent an Airbus deal.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9603
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:29 am

vfw614 wrote:
One has to wonder if Airbus will in the future do the math if the investment in sales campaigns with the likes of Ryanair and Southwest is worth the lower profits Boeing will make on its sale with a nominal competitor in the picture... I seem to remember that Airbus refused to participate in US military sales campaigns at some point (or is this an urban legend?)

Polot wrote:
The Max 7 was basically sized to give WN 150 seats (so 3 FAs) with the same seat pitch as their 738/7M8s. Current 73G seat 143 with about an inch less pitch.


So it is basically more like a 737-400 than a 737-300/700. Maximum seating then Y160 (not that it would sense commercially, of course)?


There have been plenty of U.S. carrier configs in the range of 156-162 seats. One can't automatically rule out the 4th FA to seat 160. (What WN wants to offer as seat pitch is a slightly different question.)
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5806
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:32 am

You mean the airline that basically told Boeing to design an airplane for them bought that airplane?

I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you... ;)

Still. Good news for Boeing and the MAX. It needed it.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
vfw614
Posts: 4008
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:49 am

There have been plenty of U.S. carrier configs in the range of 156-162 seats. One can't automatically rule out the 4th FA to seat 160. (What WN wants to offer as seat pitch is a slightly different question.)


Sure, but not in a Y160 configuration at maximum density. Which usually only makes sense for low cost-Carriers or leisure carriers (or legacy carriers getting tortured by LCCs) for which the need to add a 4th flight attendant is tricky, to put it mildly. That's why SW obviously wanted a 737-400 sized plane to accommodate 150 pax. They could have crammed in that number also in a 737-700 sized MAX if they really wanted to. The only exception I can think of is easyjet wth its 156seat A319s (I seem to remember that they reverted back to 150 seats at some point, but I could be wrong here).
Last edited by vfw614 on Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Aither
Posts: 1312
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:43 am

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:51 am

I don't think it's a bad news for Airbus either.
This order means Boeing is not going to launch a new program soon to replace 737s. Which means Airbus can continue to enjoy its leadership on narrowbody a few years more.
Never trust the obvious
 
EdmFlyBoi
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:58 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:56 am

eraugrad02 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
I can't really come up with any airline that can utilize the Max 7. American and Delta have plenty of A319s, United has plenty of A319s and B737-700. Icelandair probably has better CASM with the Max 8, I have a hard time seeing a case for the Max 7 besides WN. I might be wrong in the future who knows.


Delta's 319s avg 19 years old, and the 320s 25 years. UA's 319s avg 19 years and they already have lot of MAXs on order.

UAL was another air carrier I see ordering the MAX 7. Let's not forget that it was pull from Southwest and WestJet that made the design changes of the MAX 7 to bump up seating capacity. I knew the only thing keeping this big order from happening was an extending grounding. My guess will be UA and WJ will order these birds next. What I'm waiting to see is UA 737-MAX 10.


Westjet is WS not WJ. Since they just cancelled 15 frames it isn't likely that they are going to place a Max 7 order anytime soon. WS does have a fair number of 73G's and 736's that will need replacing but I would guess that these will continue to fly for a while until travel picks up again. AC is very well positioned with their A220 fleet and eventually WS will need a similar sized plane for the same routes.
 
User avatar
glideslope
Posts: 1627
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 8:06 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:17 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
So it seems like WN will be the only operator with the Max 7 type.


It's way too early to conclude that. It's not as if this is going to be the last MAX order or option exercise ever received.


With close to 10,000 flights since RTS it's pricing, and better crew training we will see large Max Sales. Although I don't see the 7 being a large part of those. I'm just glad both sides of the Pond did away with the tit for tat tariffs of Boeing and Airbus. Hopefully it will be permanent.

Boeing clearly has some breathing room now with the Max once again solidly on the books. Competition is good for all of the industry. It's also as I predicted a long time ago. PAX "that know" they are booked on a Max are not asking to fly another plane. Another 6m and we will be past the point where a routine in flight engine shutdown will be a page 1 news event for the 737 Max.
"To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9603
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:21 pm

vfw614 wrote:
0The only exception I can think of is easyjet wth its 156seat A319s (I seem to remember that they reverted back to 150 seats at some point, but I could be wrong here).


A few off the top of my head:

DL MD-90, 158

DL A320, 157

AS 738, 159

IIRC there were also some AA and UA 738 configs that are now superseded.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 11864
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:25 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
0The only exception I can think of is easyjet wth its 156seat A319s (I seem to remember that they reverted back to 150 seats at some point, but I could be wrong here).


A few off the top of my head:

DL MD-90, 158

DL A320, 157

AS 738, 159

IIRC there were also some AA and UA 738 configs that are now superseded.

He is talking about 1 class seating.

That said in cram them in one class seating the Max7 seats around 170, not 160.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9603
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:34 pm

Doesn't matter if it's single class seating or not: the relevant question is the expected revenue for the incremental seats vs. costs for the incremental FA. One can't rule out an FA for an extra 7-12 seats, not even at AA/DL/UA/WN FA wage rates.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 11864
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:36 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Doesn't matter if it's single class seating or not: the relevant question is the expected revenue for the incremental seats vs. costs for the incremental FA. One can't rule out an FA for an extra 7-12 seats, not even at AA/DL/UA/WN FA wage rates.

When you are talking about dual class though you are changing the equation. DL/AA/UA/AS etc are expecting an F class seat to pull in more revenue than a Y class seat. That changes the business case for adding another FA despite only 7-12 total more seats than the 3 FA maximum.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3155
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:46 pm

Polot wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Doesn't matter if it's single class seating or not: the relevant question is the expected revenue for the incremental seats vs. costs for the incremental FA. One can't rule out an FA for an extra 7-12 seats, not even at AA/DL/UA/WN FA wage rates.

When you are talking about dual class though you are changing the equation. DL/AA/UA/AS etc are expecting an F class seat to pull in more revenue than a Y class seat. That changes the business case for adding another FA despite only 7-12 total more seats than the 3 FA maximum.

It is about incremental return. Does having that extra row warrants enough revenue to cover an extra paycheck? If not, it does make sense to plainly remove those seats and have one less FA, regardless of the rest of the cabin.
There may be some tricks with two cabins, possibly in FA in contracts, e.g. how many seats per FA in a cabin is acceptable. so an extra FA may be needed at lower number of seats. Not sure if that is anywhere close to actual situation, just an example of other possibilities
 
planecane
Posts: 1707
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:53 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
So it seems like WN will be the only operator with the Max 7 type. I'm not of WestJet is still has the type on order. Enough planes for Boeing to at least continue the line for the Max 7 type? Nice job on Boeing to not let this order slip. Regardless Airbus can still market the A220 in the U.S. but as of now Southwest wants the 737 only.


Isn't the MAX 7 just a shrunken MAX 8 with a taller tail? It's produced on the same line so it doesn't really matter if they only ever sold 10 of them.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos