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par13del
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:44 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
If an airline can turn a profit with less than 200 aircraft (including all overhead costs), then surely an airline within an airline (such as the hypothetical WN A220 operation with WN) would still have turned a profit.

So you just look at the number related to the number of a/c and how great the A220 is, nothing about the fact that WN has been a successful carrier for decades, profitable for decades, no chapter 11 filing, until the pandemic no lay off of pilots, no wiping outing out of staff pensions, no wiping out of investor value, in effect none of the downsides that these other carriers that you are talking about have been through, some more than once, somehow you do not think any of those things have anything to do with the a/c that they operate and how they use them?
Ok.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:53 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
PHLspecial wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

It's way too early to conclude that. It's not as if this is going to be the last MAX order or option exercise ever received.

I can't really come up with any airline that can utilize the Max 7. American and Delta have plenty of A319s, United has plenty of A319s and B737-700. Icelandair probably has better CASM with the Max 8, I have a hard time seeing a case for the Max 7 besides WN. I might be wrong in the future who knows.


Delta's 319s avg 19 years old, and the 320s 25 years. UA's 319s avg 19 years and they already have lot of MAXs on order.


But UA has been buying used A319's from Europe.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:21 pm

Antarius wrote:
zeke wrote:
par13del wrote:
So you just look at the number related to the number of a/c and how great the A220 is, nothing about the fact that WN has been a successful carrier for decades, profitable for decades, no chapter 11 filing, until the pandemic no lay off of pilots, no wiping outing out of staff pensions, no wiping out of investor value, in effect none of the downsides that these other carriers that you are talking about have been through, some more than once, somehow you do not think any of those things have anything to do with the a/c that they operate and how they use them?
Ok.


The handcuffs that were on legacy carriers is now with WN, they are ripe for a disruptive carrier to come in on a lower cost basis just like they have done to other legacy carriers.


Spoken like someone who doesn't understand how WN functions at all.

Sorry that this didn't go the way you want, but not everyone who orders a 737 is "handcuffed"

That has nothing to do with the 737, don't try to put word in zeke's mouth.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:33 pm

Bricktop wrote:
Gotta agree with WayexTDI on this one. I think Airbus took a relatively cost-free chance to give Boeing a tweak, but realistically they are losing money on the BCS, and can't make more than a handful a month of them. Inserting 300 new frames into their existing order book would require a crapload of cash and a massive distraction into a line of business outside their bread and butter. Worth it? Well it would be another CRUSHING black eye for the MAX, but heck they are doing that anyway right? Airbus were clever enough not to get the bluff called. Fanboys here would be high fiving each other, but in Toulouse they would have been not so thrilled IMO.

If nothing else it seems we're in agreement on one thing, that A220 is not as strategically important to Airbus as some have made it out to be.
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:46 pm

Boeing essentially designed the MAX7 for WN. It's really not surprising that the Max7 would fair well in a competition. It would also reduce WN's bargaining power when talking to Boeing about the NSA's design if Boeing were unable to sell the Max7 to WN after having designed it for them. Those discussions will be happening in the next 5-10 years, while Max7 in WN colors will be rolling off the lines.
 
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:47 pm

DenverTed wrote:
barney captain wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
I believe 150 seats needs two over wing exits per side. If they disable one, they can seat 149. The potential benefit being, using the space for a seat where it is missing on the -8, and potentially maintenance savings on the exit.
Just speculating at the configuration.
The -7 is 154" shorter than the -8. Five rows at 32" is 160". An extra 6" to use somewhere on the -7, like have the last row have extra pitch and recline.
175 seats minus five rows is 145 seats. Add in two missing exit row seats is 147.



Everything we've heard is it will seat 150 with 3 FA's. I don't think there's any requirement for the number of overwing exits per side, just the time to evacuate by whatever means.

Based on observation of the exit limits of the 737-300,-600,-700 at 149, and I think the 720 with one overwing at 149, I just assumed it was some type of prescriptive rule. Same with 179 or 189 for double over wing, 239 for a 757. Kind of a mystery to me as to where those numbers come from or why they were chosen.

The rule is in the aircraft certification requirements under FAR Part 25: https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?n ... .1.25_1807

(g) Type and number required. The maximum number of passenger seats permitted depends on the type and number of exits installed in each side of the fuselage. Except as further restricted in paragraphs (g)(1) through (g)(9) of this section, the maximum number of passenger seats permitted for each exit of a specific type installed in each side of the fuselage is as follows:

Type A 110
Type B 75
Type C 55
Type I 45
Type II 40
Type III 35
Type IV 9

With two pairs of Type A and one pair of Type III, you get a limit of 55+55+35=145 seats. A second pair of Type III exits then gives 180 seats (and actually that poses a question - where does 189 for the 737-800 come from?)

V/F
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:28 pm

Do not discuss other users
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ukoverlander
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:40 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/davidshepardson/status/1369757463768166402?s=21

And that’s how you get business done.



Let's be honest. The only way this would have been a big 'story' is if Southwest HADN'T bought 737's. It's about as predictable as apple trees producing apples.

If Boeing had lost this order it would have been an absolute disaster for them.
 
airzona11
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:55 pm

Looking forward to seeing those planes in WN colors flying around. This thread has been a reader, that is for sure. Southwest has for decades now operated the largest percentage of their fleet 73G size vs other airlines and 73Gs/A319s. And it worked great for them.

There is nothing different today vs 5-10 years ago that makes WN more vulnerable or exposed or handcuffed because of being all 737/lots of 150 seat planes.

A220 is a great plane, but it is not a miracle plane, those do not exist. WN seems to be focusing now on using their fleet to go after smaller/more leisure-oriented stations, while also chasing O/D at prime airports (ORD, IAH, etc). Adding a new type would be much more radical, and probably one that will take longer than a year of Covid to change.
 
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barney captain
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:19 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
barney captain wrote:


Everything we've heard is it will seat 150 with 3 FA's. I don't think there's any requirement for the number of overwing exits per side, just the time to evacuate by whatever means.

Based on observation of the exit limits of the 737-300,-600,-700 at 149, and I think the 720 with one overwing at 149, I just assumed it was some type of prescriptive rule. Same with 179 or 189 for double over wing, 239 for a 757. Kind of a mystery to me as to where those numbers come from or why they were chosen.

The rule is in the aircraft certification requirements under FAR Part 25: https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?n ... .1.25_1807

(g) Type and number required. The maximum number of passenger seats permitted depends on the type and number of exits installed in each side of the fuselage. Except as further restricted in paragraphs (g)(1) through (g)(9) of this section, the maximum number of passenger seats permitted for each exit of a specific type installed in each side of the fuselage is as follows:

Type A 110
Type B 75
Type C 55
Type I 45
Type II 40
Type III 35
Type IV 9

With two pairs of Type A and one pair of Type III, you get a limit of 55+55+35=145 seats. A second pair of Type III exits then gives 180 seats (and actually that poses a question - where does 189 for the 737-800 come from?)

V/F



Great info - thanks!
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Elementalism
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:11 pm

My opinion. If there was actually a competition between Airbus and Boeing at Southwest. It was between the Max-7\8 and A320 not the A220. A220 would be a dead-end sub fleet for them that would replace the -700s and -7. But they still want a -800 sized plane that wouldn't be available in the A220.

Does Southwest have any interest in the -9 or-10?
 
Antarius
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:19 pm

Elementalism wrote:
My opinion. If there was actually a competition between Airbus and Boeing at Southwest. It was between the Max-7\8 and A320 not the A220. A220 would be a dead-end sub fleet for them that would replace the -700s and -7. But they still want a -800 sized plane that wouldn't be available in the A220.

Does Southwest have any interest in the -9 or-10?


I disagree. By choosing the MAX 8, WN committed to the 737 series in the next 2 decades over the a320neo. If WN went with the a320, it would be part of a long term full fleet switchover, similar to what Easyjet did (albeit much much bigger).

If this had been before the MAX 8 was ordered, delivered and flying, then yes. But WN has had MAX 8s for 2+ years (with a large chunk of that grounded).
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Sooner787
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:33 pm

How many Max 7's are already built for WN and ready for delivery once they're certified ?
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:48 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
How many Max 7's are already built for WN and ready for delivery once they're certified ?

Not that many. Maybe about 5
 
Elementalism
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:49 pm

Antarius wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
My opinion. If there was actually a competition between Airbus and Boeing at Southwest. It was between the Max-7\8 and A320 not the A220. A220 would be a dead-end sub fleet for them that would replace the -700s and -7. But they still want a -800 sized plane that wouldn't be available in the A220.

Does Southwest have any interest in the -9 or-10?


I disagree. By choosing the MAX 8, WN committed to the 737 series in the next 2 decades over the a320neo. If WN went with the a320, it would be part of a long term full fleet switchover, similar to what Easyjet did (albeit much much bigger).

If this had been before the MAX 8 was ordered, delivered and flying, then yes. But WN has had MAX 8s for 2+ years (with a large chunk of that grounded).


I think we are agreeing here.
 
mga707
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:13 am

Antarius wrote:

If this had been before the MAX 8 was ordered, delivered and flying, then yes. But WN has had MAX 8s for 2+ years (with a large chunk of that grounded).


3 1/2 years. Entered service October 1, 2017, if my memory is correct. Flew on my first (and so far only) MAX in November '17, HOU-PHX.
 
LAXLHR
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Re: Southwest maybe considering an Airbus order

Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:52 am

Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/davidshepardson/status/1369757463768166402?s=21

And that’s how you get business done.


But isn't it beyond obvious that the order would be several billion dollars?
BA IB ET JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO WN NW DL UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR WY MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN LO OK OZ UL SQ LA KL

707 727 L10 732-NG 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 787 DC8 DC9 DC10 M80 M11 100 AB3 310 318 319 320 321 330s 340s 350 380
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:57 am

So it didn't happen? Or are they still negotiating?
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:31 am

Noshow wrote:
So it didn't happen? Or are they still negotiating?

Announcement should happen in the near future. Jon Ostrower who gave the insight in the first of place, confirmed that Boeing will get the deal

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 85793?s=21
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:26 am

Thanks but I wait for Southwest to "confirm" it. :D
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:27 am

Noshow wrote:
Thanks but I wait for Southwest to "confirm" it. :D

Of course. As you should
 
Bricktop
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:45 pm

Noshow wrote:
Thanks but I wait for Southwest to "confirm" it. :D

You read it on the Internet. It must be true. ;)
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:02 pm

Elementalism wrote:
My opinion. If there was actually a competition between Airbus and Boeing at Southwest. It was between the Max-7\8 and A320 not the A220. A220 would be a dead-end sub fleet for them that would replace the -700s and -7. But they still want a -800 sized plane that wouldn't be available in the A220.

Does Southwest have any interest in the -9 or-10?


They would be foolish I think not to get either Max 9/10 with 200 seats. I would expect anywhere from 30-50 planes to be put on their high-frequency routes. Bringing in a larger Max will cost only marginally more which be covered with a few seats over 175 and the rest would be a straight profit.

Sooner787 wrote:
How many Max 7's are already built for WN and ready for delivery once they're certified ?


2....N7206U, N7207Z.... Both haven't flown since 2019 I believe. I thought they would have been in service prior to Southwest pulling the trigger on more.
 
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:24 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
How many Max 7's are already built for WN and ready for delivery once they're certified ?

2....N7206U, N7207Z.... Both haven't flown since 2019 I believe. I thought they would have been in service prior to Southwest pulling the trigger on more.

Right, yet the MAX7 prototype has been doing some flying during the MCAS grounding and after.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N7201S suggests it hasn't flown for over four weeks though.
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DenverTed
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:30 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
My opinion. If there was actually a competition between Airbus and Boeing at Southwest. It was between the Max-7\8 and A320 not the A220. A220 would be a dead-end sub fleet for them that would replace the -700s and -7. But they still want a -800 sized plane that wouldn't be available in the A220.

Does Southwest have any interest in the -9 or-10?


They would be foolish I think not to get either Max 9/10 with 200 seats. I would expect anywhere from 30-50 planes to be put on their high-frequency routes. Bringing in a larger Max will cost only marginally more which be covered with a few seats over 175 and the rest would be a straight profit.

Sooner787 wrote:
How many Max 7's are already built for WN and ready for delivery once they're certified ?


2....N7206U, N7207Z.... Both haven't flown since 2019 I believe. I thought they would have been in service prior to Southwest pulling the trigger on more.

How many subfleets does WN run? I assume the Hawaii fleet is a dedicated fleet. I suppose they would do that with the 9/10.
When does the 7 get certified? Hopefully this year. Then we get to see what the 7 configuration looks like for Southwest, and if they open up a route like DEN to Oahu and Maui with the added range.
 
orlandocfi
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:43 pm

DenverTed wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
My opinion. If there was actually a competition between Airbus and Boeing at Southwest. It was between the Max-7\8 and A320 not the A220. A220 would be a dead-end sub fleet for them that would replace the -700s and -7. But they still want a -800 sized plane that wouldn't be available in the A220.

Does Southwest have any interest in the -9 or-10?


They would be foolish I think not to get either Max 9/10 with 200 seats. I would expect anywhere from 30-50 planes to be put on their high-frequency routes. Bringing in a larger Max will cost only marginally more which be covered with a few seats over 175 and the rest would be a straight profit.

Sooner787 wrote:
How many Max 7's are already built for WN and ready for delivery once they're certified ?


2....N7206U, N7207Z.... Both haven't flown since 2019 I believe. I thought they would have been in service prior to Southwest pulling the trigger on more.

How many subfleets does WN run? I assume the Hawaii fleet is a dedicated fleet. I suppose they would do that with the 9/10.
When does the 7 get certified? Hopefully this year. Then we get to see what the 7 configuration looks like for Southwest, and if they open up a route like DEN to Oahu and Maui with the added range.


There’s just twenty-something ETOPS -800s that do Hawaii. It’s also a separate pilot bid group. I assume all the -7s and -8s will eventually be ETOPS birds.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:59 pm

orlandocfi wrote:
There’s just twenty-something ETOPS -800s that do Hawaii. It’s also a separate pilot bid group. I assume all the -7s and -8s will eventually be ETOPS birds.


That would be a waste of money to have all the 7s and 8s as ETOPS airplanes. It is not needed.
 
XT6Wagon
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:11 am

Seems like many people here forget that wn makes good money running cargo, and the 737-7 has roughly 30% more cargo volume. So higher operating costs can be paid for with something they already do.
 
orlandocfi
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:19 am

INFINITI329 wrote:
orlandocfi wrote:
There’s just twenty-something ETOPS -800s that do Hawaii. It’s also a separate pilot bid group. I assume all the -7s and -8s will eventually be ETOPS birds.


That would be a waste of money to have all the 7s and 8s as ETOPS airplanes. It is not needed.


Tell that to United with their 350+ ETOPS 737 fleet. If swa intends to go big in Hawaii, there will need to be a big ETOPS fleet. Not saying the whole fleet has to be ETOPS, but the MAX fleet most likely will be.
 
SXDFC
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:06 am

"How many subfleets does WN have?"


737-700 Rafts
737-700 (Standard W/O Rafts)
737-800 ETOPS (83** tail numbers)
737-800(Standard W/O Rafts 85 & 86** tail numbers)
737-8MAX ETOPS (87** tail numbers)
737-8MAX (Standard W/O Rafts- 88** tail numbers)
737-7MAX (Likely to get ETOPS)

I am curious, is it possible to convert a plane into ETOPS standards?
 
United1
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:12 am

SXDFC wrote:
"How many subfleets does WN have?"


737-700 Rafts
737-700 (Standard W/O Rafts)
737-800 ETOPS (83** tail numbers)
737-800(Standard W/O Rafts 85 & 86** tail numbers)
737-8MAX ETOPS (87** tail numbers)
737-8MAX (Standard W/O Rafts- 88** tail numbers)
737-7MAX (Likely to get ETOPS)

I am curious, is it possible to convert a plane into ETOPS standards?


Yup...you can modify aircraft to ETOPS standards. UA did it with former CO 753s and the ex Copa 737-700s they took delivery of.
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Boiler905
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:51 am

CRJ900 wrote:
The MAX 7 has even more range than the B73G, will this come in handy for WN? Like Houston-Hawaii?


Per Boeing, the MAX-7 range is 3,850nm

With the 3,850nm range, not only is HOU-Hawaii in the picture (HOU-HNL is 3,398nm), but others could also potentially be:

MCI-HNL: 3,384nm
STL-HNL: 3,588nm
MSY-HNL: 3,654nm
MKE-HNL: 3,684nm
MDW-HNL: 3,695nm
IND-HNL: 3,772nm
BNA-HNL: 3,780nm

Not sure what kind of operating limits WN will have on the MAX-7 though so some of these markets could still be too far.

Additionally, not sure if such long haul is the best way to utilize MAX-7s on the WN network (in terms of profitability)
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FluidFlow
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:16 am

It might be important to note, that Southwest has no clue, no idea and no experience at incorporating a second fleet type. They never did it. It was already a big problem when they realised that the pilots can not hold a MAX,NG and Classic license at the same time, hence the retirement of all the Classics and why they do not come back. Of course it has partially to do with singe fleet benefits but with a fleet of almost 1000 aircraft, having two 500 sized fleets does give economy of scale for maintenance, pilot pool etc. But you need to build this and you can lose a lot of money if you do not build this efficiently.

Heck look at the problem DL had with the A220 incorporation when Covid hit. While the A220 is on paper the most economic mainline aircraft out there at the moment, if you have no crew because of seniority issues you are in trouble.

Imagine the hurdle for Southwest when the new pool has to be build and there will be bottlenecks at one point because not enough crew is at the right location. The transition period will be "chaos". So by taking the "inefficient" MAX-7 they at least have no inefficiencies in administrating all the other parts of the business.

On top of that, SW is not dumb, this MAX-7 were also dirt cheap, because otherwise the A220 would fly in blue now.
 
airplaneboy
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:47 am

FluidFlow wrote:
It might be important to note, that Southwest has no clue, no idea and no experience at incorporating a second fleet type. They never did it. It was already a big problem when they realised that the pilots can not hold a MAX,NG and Classic license at the same time, hence the retirement of all the Classics and why they do not come back. Of course it has partially to do with singe fleet benefits but with a fleet of almost 1000 aircraft, having two 500 sized fleets does give economy of scale for maintenance, pilot pool etc. But you need to build this and you can lose a lot of money if you do not build this efficiently.

Heck look at the problem DL had with the A220 incorporation when Covid hit. While the A220 is on paper the most economic mainline aircraft out there at the moment, if you have no crew because of seniority issues you are in trouble.

Imagine the hurdle for Southwest when the new pool has to be build and there will be bottlenecks at one point because not enough crew is at the right location. The transition period will be "chaos". So by taking the "inefficient" MAX-7 they at least have no inefficiencies in administrating all the other parts of the business.

On top of that, SW is not dumb, this MAX-7 were also dirt cheap, because otherwise the A220 would fly in blue now.


https://simpleflying.com/southwest-airl ... g-727/amp/

WN operated a small fleet of Boeing 727-200s during 1978-1985. But otherwise, your analysis of why the airline has remained dedicated to operating a single fleet type is accurate. The economic advantages of having all employee workgroups being qualified on one aircraft — as well as efficiencies gained from having a single pool of parts for maintenance, far outweighs the benefits of acquiring a second type that has marginally better operating economics.
 
Avgeek21
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:54 am

Boiler905 wrote:
CRJ900 wrote:
The MAX 7 has even more range than the B73G, will this come in handy for WN? Like Houston-Hawaii?


Per Boeing, the MAX-7 range is 3,850nm

With the 3,850nm range, not only is HOU-Hawaii in the picture (HOU-HNL is 3,398nm), but others could also potentially be:

MCI-HNL: 3,384nm
STL-HNL: 3,588nm
MSY-HNL: 3,654nm
MKE-HNL: 3,684nm
MDW-HNL: 3,695nm
IND-HNL: 3,772nm
BNA-HNL: 3,780nm

Not sure what kind of operating limits WN will have on the MAX-7 though so some of these markets could still be too far.

Additionally, not sure if such long haul is the best way to utilize MAX-7s on the WN network (in terms of profitability)


Those brochures range quotes are pretty much useless with a full payload. On the -800 and MAX 8&9 I’ve seen distances far less where you are limited by structural limits before the tanks are full enough to reach that duration. Real world figures vs brochures. No dig at Boeing as previous manufactures I flew had the same. The MAX is indeed a fantastic improvement over the -7&800.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:11 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
(g) Type and number required. The maximum number of passenger seats permitted depends on the type and number of exits installed in each side of the fuselage. Except as further restricted in paragraphs (g)(1) through (g)(9) of this section, the maximum number of passenger seats permitted for each exit of a specific type installed in each side of the fuselage is as follows:

Type A 110
Type B 75
Type C 55
Type I 45
Type II 40
Type III 35
Type IV 9

With two pairs of Type A and one pair of Type III, you get a limit of 55+55+35=145 seats. A second pair of Type III exits then gives 180 seats (and actually that poses a question - where does 189 for the 737-800 come from?)

V/F

2*110 = already 220
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:39 pm

Armadillo1 wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:
(g) Type and number required. The maximum number of passenger seats permitted depends on the type and number of exits installed in each side of the fuselage. Except as further restricted in paragraphs (g)(1) through (g)(9) of this section, the maximum number of passenger seats permitted for each exit of a specific type installed in each side of the fuselage is as follows:

Type A 110
Type B 75
Type C 55
Type I 45
Type II 40
Type III 35
Type IV 9

With two pairs of Type A and one pair of Type III, you get a limit of 55+55+35=145 seats. A second pair of Type III exits then gives 180 seats (and actually that poses a question - where does 189 for the 737-800 come from?)

V/F

2*110 = already 220

The 737 main exits are Type I. I’m not sure there is any narrow body with Type A exits, those are usually the main exits on wide bodies.
 
 
orlandocfi
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:51 pm

Boiler905 wrote:
CRJ900 wrote:
The MAX 7 has even more range than the B73G, will this come in handy for WN? Like Houston-Hawaii?


Per Boeing, the MAX-7 range is 3,850nm

With the 3,850nm range, not only is HOU-Hawaii in the picture (HOU-HNL is 3,398nm), but others could also potentially be:

MCI-HNL: 3,384nm
STL-HNL: 3,588nm
MSY-HNL: 3,654nm
MKE-HNL: 3,684nm
MDW-HNL: 3,695nm
IND-HNL: 3,772nm
BNA-HNL: 3,780nm

Not sure what kind of operating limits WN will have on the MAX-7 though so some of these markets could still be too far.

Additionally, not sure if such long haul is the best way to utilize MAX-7s on the WN network (in terms of profitability)


I don’t think we will be seeing the -7 operating Hawaii to anywhere east of the Rockies. Jumping time zones and night flying presents the need for relief pilots on long flights. I doubt swa will plan any flights more than 8 hours scheduled block time. That would be a painfully long time to be cooped up in a 737 flight deck.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:58 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
It might be important to note, that Southwest has no clue, no idea and no experience at incorporating a second fleet type.

How soon they forget: WN was operating the MD-95 / Boeing 717 as recently as 2015, but found it did not work for them and made the deal to get rid of them in 2012, basically paying DL to take them off their hands:

In a transaction first announced May 22, Southwest Airlines, Delta Air Lines and Boeing Capital Corp. said Monday they've wrapped up details of the plan to send Southwest's Boeing 717s to Delta.

These are the 88 airplanes that Southwest picked up when it acquired AirTran Airways on May 2, 2011. Southwest officials initially said the 717s would fit well into the Southwest fleet, but soon said Southwest would be better served if its fleet remained all Boeing 737s.

Southwest said it'll incur an extra $50 million in "total estimated AirTran acquisition and integration costs" as it says goodbye to the aircraft.

However, it expects its annual pre-tax results to improve by about $200 million after the 717s are replaced with flying down by 737s.

"Replacing 717 flying with 737s is expected to significantly benefit our financial results once the transition is complete, and better supports our strategic and financial goals," Southwest chairman, president and CEO Gary Kelly said in Southwest's press release.

Ref: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... -717-deal/
Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/southwest- ... 79.article
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N776AU
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:18 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Boeing couldn't afford to not win this order. It would have been game over for the Max if Boeing's best customer said no and went to Airbus.

Let’s be honest. There was a 0% chance Southwest went with Airbus. Boeing could have said unkind things about Gary Kelly’s mother and still won the order.
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:26 pm

N776AU wrote:
Let’s be honest. There was a 0% chance Southwest went with Airbus. Boeing could have said unkind things about Gary Kelly’s mother and still won the order.

I hope you were saying the same thing over the last two or so years as a major spin campaign was in progress here on a.net:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1429291
viewtopic.php?t=1453297
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1433763
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1421005
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:34 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
It might be important to note, that Southwest has no clue, no idea and no experience at incorporating a second fleet type. They never did it. It was already a big problem when they realised that the pilots can not hold a MAX,NG and Classic license at the same time, hence the retirement of all the Classics and why they do not come back. Of course it has partially to do with singe fleet benefits but with a fleet of almost 1000 aircraft, having two 500 sized fleets does give economy of scale for maintenance, pilot pool etc. But you need to build this and you can lose a lot of money if you do not build this efficiently.

Heck look at the problem DL had with the A220 incorporation when Covid hit. While the A220 is on paper the most economic mainline aircraft out there at the moment, if you have no crew because of seniority issues you are in trouble.

Imagine the hurdle for Southwest when the new pool has to be build and there will be bottlenecks at one point because not enough crew is at the right location. The transition period will be "chaos". So by taking the "inefficient" MAX-7 they at least have no inefficiencies in administrating all the other parts of the business.

On top of that, SW is not dumb, this MAX-7 were also dirt cheap, because otherwise the A220 would fly in blue now.


While the metaphors of 1) hub and spokes and of 2) web get overly stretched, I think they may apply to WN in this case, and single fleet types. I suspect WN's web system is probably computer driven, and operators have no idea of what particular plane will fly a particular leg more than a few days ahead of time. Shifting passenger booking, weather delays, unexpected maintenance requirements, crew availability, and keeping the load factor as high as possible, late booking seats available all require a large degree of flexibility.

I don't fly much but at least 2 or 3 of my trips on WN have had planes taken out of service for unexpected maintenance. They announce that a substitute will be available in less than 45 minutes, and the transfer to the second leg was observed in a timely manner. Individual passengers both before and after boarding were told to change flight plans and transfer at a different point. The hassle all seems to happen in the back office. Passengers did not have to do any of the rebookings.
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737tanker
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:48 pm

airplaneboy wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
It might be important to note, that Southwest has no clue, no idea and no experience at incorporating a second fleet type. They never did it. It was already a big problem when they realised that the pilots can not hold a MAX,NG and Classic license at the same time, hence the retirement of all the Classics and why they do not come back.

Twice in their history Southwest operated 727s and 737s. As for the retirement of the Classics they were going to be retired in any case within the next year as Southwest didn't want to do the AD that required the NGS be installed in all fuel tanks. The negotiations with the pilot union on how the separate pilot groups would be bid and paid was a convenient straw horse.
 
737max8
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:57 pm

Just read the whole thread

1. The supply chain going from the CL to the NG to the MAX is way easier than a new type entirely. The latter would require thousands and thousands of more parts, resources, suppliers, and probably hundreds of millions of cash...

2. We already know the WN configuration of the MAX 7, it's been built for years. 150 seats, 2 overwing exits, 3 lavs, plug the missing exit seat and add a row and you get 150.

3. 7 MAX 7s are built but they can't be delivered until Boeing gets the plane certified

4. There is no way all of the MAX will be ETOPS, that is an insane waste of money on equipment, increased MX, and carrying around extra weight (such as 4 rafts)
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:09 pm

Boiler905 wrote:
CRJ900 wrote:
The MAX 7 has even more range than the B73G, will this come in handy for WN? Like Houston-Hawaii?


Per Boeing, the MAX-7 range is 3,850nm

With the 3,850nm range, not only is HOU-Hawaii in the picture (HOU-HNL is 3,398nm), but others could also potentially be:

MCI-HNL: 3,384nm
STL-HNL: 3,588nm
MSY-HNL: 3,654nm
MKE-HNL: 3,684nm
MDW-HNL: 3,695nm
IND-HNL: 3,772nm
BNA-HNL: 3,780nm

Not sure what kind of operating limits WN will have on the MAX-7 though so some of these markets could still be too far.

Additionally, not sure if such long haul is the best way to utilize MAX-7s on the WN network (in terms of profitability)


WN probably will not go further than HNL-DEN with a ETOPS MAX7. Going West DEN-HNL gonna require good fuel reserves for the ETOPS mission.
With the MAX7 only holding 150 pax it should have the weight available to be successful for WN.
Hopefully WN will finally add Red eyes to make Hawaii connections with more of its network not only if they add DEN but if and when PHX and LAS happen also.

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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:26 pm

Polot wrote:
Armadillo1 wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:

With two pairs of Type A and one pair of Type III, you get a limit of 55+55+35=145 seats. A second pair of Type III exits then gives 180 seats (and actually that poses a question - where does 189 for the 737-800 come from?)

V/F

2*110 = already 220

The 737 main exits are Type I. I’m not sure there is any narrow body with Type A exits, those are usually the main exits on wide bodies.

D’oh! I meant to type Type C. But if they are Type I, I’m not sure how the numbers add up: 45+35+45=125 for a 737-300/700?

V/F
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kaneporta1
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:23 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
Polot wrote:
Armadillo1 wrote:
2*110 = already 220

The 737 main exits are Type I. I’m not sure there is any narrow body with Type A exits, those are usually the main exits on wide bodies.

D’oh! I meant to type Type C. But if they are Type I, I’m not sure how the numbers add up: 45+35+45=125 for a 737-300/700?

V/F


When the 737 and A320 were certified, type C exits did not exist. This is why they are Type I.

However, for many aircraft, these exits are designated as Overperforming Type I, and depending on the aircraft and exit, they have higher passenger allowances than the standard Type I.
Those allowances are determined by analysis and/or testing for each aircraft. So for a 737-700, the allowance is 149. For the -800 it is 189 instead of 175. For the A321Neo, it is up to 200 when door 3 is deactivated, instead of 175.

For these increased allowances to happen, many aspects of the aircraft and door design are evaluated, such as door opening and size, provision of dual slides, aisle and exit path width, etc.

(Also keep in mind that a dual Type III overwing exit has a limit of 65 pax, not 2 x 35 = 70 pax).

Revelation wrote:
How soon they forget: WN was operating the MD-95 / Boeing 717 as recently as 2015, but found it did not work for them and made the deal to get rid of them in 2012, basically paying DL to take them off their hands:


I think the 717 is not a good example. The 717 probably had similar or worse economics to the 737 while offering much more limited range, and hence flexibility within the network. On the other hand, the A220 can do pretty much everything the 737 can, for a lower cost (per seat and per trip). Having the 717 in the Southwest network was always going to be very hard to make it work. The A220 on the other hand, is a much more interesting proposition.
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sxf24
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:42 pm

Tammy Romo spoke at a conference today and said that while the A220 is a viable competitor to the MAX 7, Southwest continues to believe there are many advantages to having a single fleet type, including simplicity and efficiency, translating to lower costs.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing nears 737 MAX order from Southwest worth billions

Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:04 pm

sxf24 wrote:
Tammy Romo spoke at a conference today and said that while the A220 is a viable competitor to the MAX 7, Southwest continues to believe there are many advantages to having a single fleet type, including simplicity and efficiency, translating to lower costs.

So pretty much we are buying the MAX 7 and this is why

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