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PM
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:15 pm

Opus99 wrote:
PM wrote:
Opus99 wrote:



Jon Ostrower revealed that cargo operators were pushing Airbus to have GE engines on the 350F.


Why would they do that?

I don’t think they would but it’s what they apparently want

No, I mean why would the operators want a GE engine? Competition drives down costs, I suppose, but don't they rate the Trent XWB?
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:18 pm

PM wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
PM wrote:
Why would they do that?

I don’t think they would but it’s what they apparently want

No, I mean why would the operators want a GE engine? Competition drives down costs, I suppose, but don't they rate the Trent XWB?

Oh I guess for commonality purposes. Let me link the article below. It’s locked though so here’s a tweet with it

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 76128?s=21
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:28 pm

Opus99 wrote:
PM wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
I don’t think they would but it’s what they apparently want

No, I mean why would the operators want a GE engine? Competition drives down costs, I suppose, but don't they rate the Trent XWB?

Oh I guess for commonality purposes. Let me link the article below. It’s locked though so here’s a tweet with it

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 76128?s=21

Interesting. Thanks.

Unless it has changed, RR only have guaranteed exclusivity on the -1000. (ie not on the -900.) With the proposed -F being largely based on the -1000, I wonder if RR have exculsivity there?
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:28 pm

Good news, but I was hoping they would launch with a "family", this plus a "low hanging fruit" A330-800F, to provide broad market coverage.
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:37 pm

PM wrote:
Opus99 wrote:



Jon Ostrower revealed that cargo operators were pushing Airbus to have GE engines on the 350F.


Why would they do that?

I suppose because many of the current freighters are already GE powered (777F, 748F, a significant part of the 744F fleet). Should make the transition somewhat easier.

zeke wrote:

frigatebird wrote:
I hope Boeing will not wait too long granting authority to offer the 777XF now that Airbus launched the A350F. We could see some interesting competitions.


Will be a significant difference in empty weights between the two.


Will be interesting to see what QR and SQ will do. Both have the pax 777X and A350 on order/in their fleet. Their decision for a new generation freighter should give us a clue. If a large dedicated cargo operator defects from the 777F to the A350F, Boeing may be advised to have a second look at their freighter portfolio.
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:39 pm

PM wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
PM wrote:
No, I mean why would the operators want a GE engine? Competition drives down costs, I suppose, but don't they rate the Trent XWB?

Oh I guess for commonality purposes. Let me link the article below. It’s locked though so here’s a tweet with it

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 76128?s=21

Interesting. Thanks.

Unless it has changed, RR only have guaranteed exclusivity on the -1000. (ie not on the -900.) With the proposed -F being largely based on the -1000, I wonder if RR have exculsivity there?

I don't think it's guaranteed, but would GE want to invest in an engine solely available for the freighter version of the A350?
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:10 pm

frigatebird wrote:
PM wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Oh I guess for commonality purposes. Let me link the article below. It’s locked though so here’s a tweet with it

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 76128?s=21

Interesting. Thanks.

Unless it has changed, RR only have guaranteed exclusivity on the -1000. (ie not on the -900.) With the proposed -F being largely based on the -1000, I wonder if RR have exculsivity there?

I don't think it's guaranteed, but would GE want to invest in an engine solely available for the freighter version of the A350?


Anyone suggesting that the A350F /-1000 could also be offered with GE9X engines? There would definitely not be time or a business case to develop a new engine, and the GE9X is the one engine GE has that is powerful enough, and comparable to the XWB97 engine.
Last edited by reidar76 on Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
JonesNL
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:11 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/airbus-launches-a350-freighter-2021-07-29/

“Industry sources said the A350 freighter would carry 109 tonnes compared with the projected 115-117 tonne capacity of the 777X version, though Boeing has yet to finalise any plans.“


So, on the high end we are talking about 8 tonnes difference. The OEW difference is much higher if my memory serves me correctly. That would put the 777x in an disadvantage...
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:17 pm

JonesNL wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/airbus-launches-a350-freighter-2021-07-29/

“Industry sources said the A350 freighter would carry 109 tonnes compared with the projected 115-117 tonne capacity of the 777X version, though Boeing has yet to finalise any plans.“


So, on the high end we are talking about 8 tonnes difference. The OEW difference is much higher if my memory serves me correctly. That would put the 777x in an disadvantage...

I don’t know what the OEW difference is. But I don’t think it does. It’s the story of the whole family vs the 350. You’re counting on newer engines to push you just over. So not necessarily a “disadvantage”. It might also have more volume than the 350F. So just a larger aircraft all through. We might have to see
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:28 pm

Maybe re-engining the 777-200F with a suitable noise compliant engine (new or regulations compliant version of an existing engine) is cheaper then shrink and convert to cargo (deck, door) of the delayed 777-9. Certainly now that the market has to be shared with a new, lighter competitor.
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:28 pm

JonesNL wrote:
So, on the high end we are talking about 8 tonnes difference. The OEW difference is much higher if my memory serves me correctly. That would put the 777x in an disadvantage...


Dont have any source to link, hearing rumors' that the 77X may have the product differentiation in that it will be able to carry oversize cargo that a 77F/A350F could not carry as a 747F replacement. So it will not just be payload/range, it will also depend on the intended role.
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:33 pm

reidar76 wrote:
Anyone suggesting that the A350F /-1000 could also be offered with GE9X engines? There would definitely not be time or a business case to develop a new engine, and the GE9X is the one engine GE has that is powerful enough, and comparable to the XWB97 engine.


I think a pair of GE9X would be around 5 tonnes heavier than a pair of Trent XWBs, i.e. around 5% less payload. Could a pair of Trent XWBs be put on a 77X to gain 5 tonnes of payload ?
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:49 pm

Opus99 wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/airbus-launches-a350-freighter-2021-07-29/

“Industry sources said the A350 freighter would carry 109 tonnes compared with the projected 115-117 tonne capacity of the 777X version, though Boeing has yet to finalise any plans.“


So, on the high end we are talking about 8 tonnes difference. The OEW difference is much higher if my memory serves me correctly. That would put the 777x in an disadvantage...

I don’t know what the OEW difference is. But I don’t think it does. It’s the story of the whole family vs the 350. You’re counting on newer engines to push you just over. So not necessarily a “disadvantage”. It might also have more volume than the 350F. So just a larger aircraft all through. We might have to see


Apologies, I should have written more clearly. I meant it puts the 777XF in an disadvantage based on payload weight, payload volume will be much better for the 777XF So, the question would be which corner of the market will be ordering most planes; Volume based e-commerce movers or heavy lifters...

In this I am assuming that the market of the replacement of 747 oversize cargo is small. Also another point: Boeing predicted 943 newly build freighters for the next 20 years. I think that should be enough to support both an 777XF and an A350F, especially if one is focused on weight and the other one on volume...
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:57 pm

zeke wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
Anyone suggesting that the A350F /-1000 could also be offered with GE9X engines? There would definitely not be time or a business case to develop a new engine, and the GE9X is the one engine GE has that is powerful enough, and comparable to the XWB97 engine.


I think a pair of GE9X would be around 5 tonnes heavier than a pair of Trent XWBs, i.e. around 5% less payload. Could a pair of Trent XWBs be put on a 77X to gain 5 tonnes of payload ?

The Trent-XWB is far from maxed out at 97k thrust, I believe. So I don't think thrust would be the limiting factor. But how much additional fuel would needed for the T-XWB vs the GE9X? Depends on the stage length of course.

On the other hand, we're hearing about trends that more and more often freighters max out on volume instead of weight.
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:59 pm

JonesNL wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
JonesNL wrote:

So, on the high end we are talking about 8 tonnes difference. The OEW difference is much higher if my memory serves me correctly. That would put the 777x in an disadvantage...

I don’t know what the OEW difference is. But I don’t think it does. It’s the story of the whole family vs the 350. You’re counting on newer engines to push you just over. So not necessarily a “disadvantage”. It might also have more volume than the 350F. So just a larger aircraft all through. We might have to see


Apologies, I should have written more clearly. I meant it puts the 777XF in an disadvantage based on payload weight, payload volume will be much better for the 777XF So, the question would be which corner of the market will be ordering most planes; Volume based e-commerce movers or heavy lifters...

In this I am assuming that the market of the replacement of 747 oversize cargo is small. Also another point: Boeing predicted 943 newly build freighters for the next 20 years. I think that should be enough to support both an 777XF and an A350F, especially if one is focused on weight and the other one on volume...

There's a place for both IMO. it will be very nasty competition but thats what makes it fun
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:01 pm

Mr Ostrower just tweeted that they've taken the paywall off the Air Current article. Still there for me though, but might be worth a try. I'm curious what the "sizable" PIP is on the passenger model.
https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 68065?s=19
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:12 pm

BaconButty wrote:
Mr Ostrower just tweeted that they've taken the paywall off the Air Current article. Still there for me though, but might be worth a try. I'm curious what the "sizable" PIP is on the passenger model.
https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 68065?s=19

2% PIP on XWB
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:30 pm

Opus99 wrote:
BaconButty wrote:
Mr Ostrower just tweeted that they've taken the paywall off the Air Current article. Still there for me though, but might be worth a try. I'm curious what the "sizable" PIP is on the passenger model.
https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 68065?s=19

2% PIP on XWB


Thanks. I had hoped for a weight reduction program or aerodynamic cleanup, perhaps related to project Sunrise. Or even the active laminar flow device on the vertical stab they tested.
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:35 pm

chiad wrote:
Airbus launches A350 freighter
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSP6N2CH015

Opus99 wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-29/airbus-lifts-profit-and-cash-targets-as-jet-demand-storms-back

Okay. Airbus hasn’t quite lined up launch customers but I’m sure that shouldn’t be a problem if they’ve launched the aircraft right?

“The pandemic has accelerated a shift to online shopping, prompting renewed demand for dedicated cargo planes. The company gets “closer every day” to lining up launch customers, Faury said.“

Not sure I'd call it a 'launch' with no launch orders.

Feels more like ATO, ability to offer.

Yet of course hype is the rule of the day, so people go with 'launch'.

https://www.flightglobal.com/aerospace/ ... 24.article calls it 'board approval to develop'.

Maybe Airbus hasn't ironed out the commercial aspects of the program just yet?

Seems like the tech side is advanced enough to have a general idea of what 'A350 building blocks' will be used, and modeling is advanced enough to describe payload-range, but maybe they don't know what it will cost to build, or what they will ask customers to pay, or what customers will be willing to pay.

PM wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Jon Ostrower revealed that cargo operators were pushing Airbus to have GE engines on the 350F.

Why would they do that?

If you are UPS, having an engine that is common with your 748F is a good thing, no?

BaconButty wrote:
Mr Ostrower just tweeted that they've taken the paywall off the Air Current article. Still there for me though, but might be worth a try. I'm curious what the "sizable" PIP is on the passenger model.
https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 68065?s=19

It asks if you want to buy the article, then it displays it anyway.

It says:

Airbus is planning a 624,000-lb (283 metric ton) variant of the A350-900 (up from 280t), in the works for around 2024 that also includes a 2% improvement in fuel burn on Rolls-Royce’s Trent XWB engine. A takeoff weight bump is also expected on the A350-1000.

He also dishes on the 787-IGW:

The Air Current reported in May 2019 about a series of payload and range improvements for the 787-9 and -10, upping the jet’s maximum takeoff weight to 572,000 lbs. (260 metric tons). Prior to the pandemic, Boeing planned to introduce the improved 787 — the 787IGW (increased gross weight) as it is known internally to Boeing — with Air New Zealand in late 2022. The IGW is understood to be a structural stepping stone for an eventual re-engined 787, should it come to pass. Given changes in production rates and customer deferrals the timing of the IGW is no longer clear.

He goes on to say that since GE can't offer GE9X directly due to agreements with Boeing, it'd have to cook up a new engine for A350 with GE9X parts in a smaller size suitable for A350 and 787, which in turn would trigger RR to do a new A350/787 power plant presumably with UltraFan internals. More details in the article.

Yet that may be "much ado about nothing". Customers may ask for GE on A350F but Airbus is more likely than not to point to their exclusivity with RR and the cost of adding a 2nd engine and demur.

The pessimism expressed in this thread about the longevity of current 77F and future 77WF conversions is not expressed in the Air Current's article. The article treats young 77F and 77W conversions as significant threats to the success of A350F and 77XF.
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:41 pm

PM wrote:
No, I mean why would the operators want a GE engine? Competition drives down costs, I suppose, but don't they rate the Trent XWB?


Can't speak for the veracity of the claim, but there is a huge installed base of GE engines in the freighter world: CF-6 on MD-11, 747, 767, A300 and A330; GE90 on 777F and; GEnx on 748F.

RR engines, on the contrary, are largely restricted to the 757 (RB211) and A330 (Trent).
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:49 pm

zeke wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
Anyone suggesting that the A350F /-1000 could also be offered with GE9X engines? There would definitely not be time or a business case to develop a new engine, and the GE9X is the one engine GE has that is powerful enough, and comparable to the XWB97 engine.


I think a pair of GE9X would be around 5 tonnes heavier than a pair of Trent XWBs, i.e. around 5% less payload. Could a pair of Trent XWBs be put on a 77X to gain 5 tonnes of payload ?


Does a weight delta on the engines automatically translates into a payload delta when the engines are installed under the wings (rather than attached to the fuselage)?
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:02 pm

Who launched it? Airbus didn't announce customers, according to a rueters article, but I wonder, who actually needs the 350F right now?

I would assume UPS would want it to supplement its MD-11s, but I don't know about that, since they are still expanding their MD-11/747 fleet, so I have no idea where the 350F would fit in with the D-11, 747-400, and 747-8.
Maybe Fedex? But they seem to be pretty hooked on to the 777F for now and probably plan to keep the MD-11s for the near future, so I'm assuming it's probably a no from them.
Probably not Atlas/Cargolux because they both operate huge fleets of the 747Fs, so I assume they probably do not want to sacrifice cockpit commonality.

The 350F cannot replace the 747s because it cannot carry outsize cargo, nor does it have the nose hinge, so that's a no.
I wonder, how does the 350 compare to the 777/MD-11s? I assume that is probably the size range that it'll compete in, but I'm sure to think that converting a used 77W or getting 777Fs may be cheaper? Though the 350 is obviously more efficient.
What will Boeing do? Will they go forward with a 777X-F? Will they even launch the long rumoured 767-400XF from last year? It's anybody's guess, but I was just wondering, who launched it? Obviously Airbus needs at least a FEW orders to make it worth launching, and eventually, building...
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:03 pm

tomcat wrote:
Does a weight delta on the engines automatically translates into a payload delta when the engines are installed under the wings (rather than attached to the fuselage)?


Would 5 tonnes of extra fuel in the wing or centre tanks change the amount of payload - yes.
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:33 pm

If the A350F can indeed lift around 90 tons, that won't be too far off what a 777XF will be able to lift, given its higher OEW and lower TOW compared to the 777F. If that turns out to hold true, Boeing will have a hard time given that the 777XF will be around 30 tons heavier than an A350F.

Boeing757100 wrote:
The 350F cannot replace the 747s because it cannot carry outsize cargo, nor does it have the nose hinge, so that's a no.


Loading outsized cargo on an A350 will, just as it is on the 777F, be a function of how large the main-deck cargo door is. There is a reason the door on the 777F is the largest in the business, as it is specifically designed to allow for loading of outsized cargo. The 777F can easily load 20ft pallets, either side-by-side or as centre load. It can even load 20ft pallets with overhang, and it's the only aircraft able to load an assembled RR Trent or GE90 - that's not possible on the 747F as the door is not big enough.

So you're totally wrong in that statement, and the value of the nose-door is highly debatable; some airlines hardly ever use that feature and others only very rarely.

For really, true, outsized cargo the options shall remain limited to carriage by Antonov.
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:39 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
Who launched it? Airbus didn't announce customers, according to a rueters article, but I wonder, who actually needs the 350F right now?

As above, FlightGlobal termed this 'board approval to develop' which IMO is different than 'launch'.

I suppose 'develop' refers to refining the concept they currently have into an actual aircraft design that they can build. To me this means we aren't any further along than NMA was when it got canceled. They have a concept with some basic modeling of key parameters, they've shown it to customers, they now have board level approval to nail down more specifics like exactly what will be build, what sub-contractors will be engaged, what the detailed schedule and budget will be, how to price it, etc. Boeing was at this phase when NMA got canceled. IMO the A350F program still has not passed 'the point of no return' where we can be fairly certain a plane will be built. That only becomes likely when customers sign contracts with penalties for non-performance. Since that hasn't happened yet, Airbus can cancel without facing serious damages.
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:06 pm

Revelation wrote:

I suppose 'develop' refers to refining the concept they currently have into an actual aircraft design that they can build. To me this means we aren't any further along than NMA was when it got canceled.


There's no way we can compare a clean sheet design to a derivative that's main challenge is deciding how big door will be cut on the side.
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:20 pm

G'day

Boeing757100 wrote:
The 350F cannot replace the 747s because it cannot carry outsize cargo, nor does it have the nose hinge, so that's a no.


A lowered cockpit Airbus Beluga style would solve that problem. I doubt there is a market large enough to pay for such a variant though :stirthepot:

Cheers

Peter
 
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:22 pm

Public statement by Faury. Plane will EIS in 2025.
https://youtu.be/6mdSicAyapU
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:24 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Revelation wrote:

I suppose 'develop' refers to refining the concept they currently have into an actual aircraft design that they can build. To me this means we aren't any further along than NMA was when it got canceled.


There's no way we can compare a clean sheet design to a derivative that's main challenge is deciding how big door will be cut on the side.

Is that really the main challenge?
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:38 pm

Revelation wrote:
Not sure I'd call it a 'launch' with no launch orders.

Feels more like ATO, ability to offer.

Yet of course hype is the rule of the day, so people go with 'launch'.

For comparison the 777X timeline:
Late 2012: Public rumors about a 777X, "decision expected next year"
2013-03-15: Boeing selects GE as partner on 777X
2013-05-02: Board announces 777X authority to offer <--- this is where the A350F is right now
2013-09-19: Boeing announces LH as first customer of the 777-9X
2013-11-17: Boeing officially launches the 777X at the Dubai Airshow

If Airbus manages to find the customers they need, we should expect the A350F launch by end of this year. Otherwise, it could end up shelved like Boeing's NMA.
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:02 pm

VV wrote:
According to that schedule the A350F should enter into service about two or three years before 777-8F does.
That's interesting.


It is. Airbus developing a freighter version of it's newest clean sheet aircraft (A350) that was launched after Boeing's newest clean sheet aircraft (787). They will also beat Boeing's nex-gen freighter to market as well (77X-F). So much for the worn out rhetoric that Airbus always follows Boeing. Building it closer in size to the 1000 instead of the 900 is interesting as well. They are even taking the courageous 'build it and they will come' approach as they have not announced firm orders.

I think we better understand why the 77X-F might be sized somewhere between the 8 and the 9 now (provided rumors are true)... a capabilities differentiator..

Interesting times in an otherwise rather pedestrian market segment...
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:07 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I suppose 'develop' refers to refining the concept they currently have into an actual aircraft design that they can build. To me this means we aren't any further along than NMA was when it got canceled.

There's no way we can compare a clean sheet design to a derivative that's main challenge is deciding how big door will be cut on the side.

If it was that simple then it'd be done already.

Airbus still has a significant risk/reward decision to make.

The risk isn't of the same magnitude as the NMA, but neither is the reward.
 
majano
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:14 pm

Revelation wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I suppose 'develop' refers to refining the concept they currently have into an actual aircraft design that they can build. To me this means we aren't any further along than NMA was when it got canceled.

There's no way we can compare a clean sheet design to a derivative that's main challenge is deciding how big door will be cut on the side.

If it was that simple then it'd be done already.

Airbus still has a significant risk/reward decision to make.

The risk isn't of the same magnitude as the NMA, but neither is the reward.

Why are people talking about the NMA here? Did the Boeing BoD ever grant authority to offer on that supposed programme?
 
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:26 pm

I'm sure Airbus already has various commitments and positive feedback, hence they are going forward.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
 
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:31 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Yet of course hype is the rule of the day, so people go with 'launch'.

For comparison the 777X timeline:
Late 2012: Public rumors about a 777X, "decision expected next year"
2013-03-15: Boeing selects GE as partner on 777X
2013-05-02: Board announces 777X authority to offer <--- this is where the A350F is right now
2013-09-19: Boeing announces LH as first customer of the 777-9X
2013-11-17: Boeing officially launches the 777X at the Dubai Airshow

If Airbus manages to find the customers they need, we should expect the A350F launch by end of this year. Otherwise, it could end up shelved like Boeing's NMA.[/quote]

Ok, thanks for the insight. Most sources I saw said in big words in the title 'launch' but I guess hype factor does play into it.
 
Airlinerdude
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:59 pm

Revelation wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
Who launched it? Airbus didn't announce customers, according to a rueters article, but I wonder, who actually needs the 350F right now?

As above, FlightGlobal termed this 'board approval to develop' which IMO is different than 'launch'.

I suppose 'develop' refers to refining the concept they currently have into an actual aircraft design that they can build. To me this means we aren't any further along than NMA was when it got canceled. They have a concept with some basic modeling of key parameters, they've shown it to customers, they now have board level approval to nail down more specifics like exactly what will be build, what sub-contractors will be engaged, what the detailed schedule and budget will be, how to price it, etc.


Just speculation on my part since I don't have any involvement with aircraft manufacturers, but I would imagine that this needed distinction might allow Airbus to capitalize development costs (to an asset) spent on the A350F program instead of showing it as an expense (on the income statement). From what you noted above, it sounds like all the criteria under IFRS to do so would have been met. A subtle, but useful distinction since it usually looks better on the financial statements.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:15 pm

oschkosch wrote:
I'm sure Airbus already has various commitments and positive feedback, hence they are going forward.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk


This was my thought exactly. They're not operating in a vacuum. No way, imho, that they would take this step without having had very serious advanced discussions with serious potential customers. If they steal this march on Boeing after being a laggard in the cargo segment for so long, wow, that would be an achievement.
 
B777LRF
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:17 pm

Revelation wrote:
As above, FlightGlobal termed this 'board approval to develop' which IMO is different than 'launch'.

I suppose 'develop' refers to refining the concept they currently have into an actual aircraft design that they can build. To me this means we aren't any further along than NMA was when it got canceled. They have a concept with some basic modeling of key parameters, they've shown it to customers, they now have board level approval to nail down more specifics like exactly what will be build, what sub-contractors will be engaged, what the detailed schedule and budget will be, how to price it, etc. Boeing was at this phase when NMA got canceled. IMO the A350F program still has not passed 'the point of no return' where we can be fairly certain a plane will be built. That only becomes likely when customers sign contracts with penalties for non-performance. Since that hasn't happened yet, Airbus can cancel without facing serious damages.


Guillaume Faury was quite clear in his message: Airbus is going to develop the A350F. You may wish to parse those words to infinity and beyond, debating whether it should be called a launch or not, but it is what it is.

What it certainly doesn't, is bear any resemblance to the often re-defined (without ever being firmly defined) NMA, which was a fluent proposition in an ever disappearing market dominated by the competitor. This is an entry into a growing market with a superior product, a product which the competition won't have a compliant answer to in 6 short years. The next offering by Boeing will be several years late and will (in it's present -8F state) not be competitive (too heavy, no payload advantage, largely irrelevant range advantage).
Last edited by B777LRF on Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Opus99
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:17 pm

SteelChair wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
I'm sure Airbus already has various commitments and positive feedback, hence they are going forward.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk


This was my thought exactly. They're not operating in a vacuum. No way, imho, that they would take this step without having had very serious advanced discussions with serious potential customers. If they steal this march on Boeing after being a laggard in the cargo segment for so long, wow, that would be an achievement.

One would argue they did for their last attempts. But honestly, i think they do
 
Opus99
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:19 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Revelation wrote:
As above, FlightGlobal termed this 'board approval to develop' which IMO is different than 'launch'.

I suppose 'develop' refers to refining the concept they currently have into an actual aircraft design that they can build. To me this means we aren't any further along than NMA was when it got canceled. They have a concept with some basic modeling of key parameters, they've shown it to customers, they now have board level approval to nail down more specifics like exactly what will be build, what sub-contractors will be engaged, what the detailed schedule and budget will be, how to price it, etc. Boeing was at this phase when NMA got canceled. IMO the A350F program still has not passed 'the point of no return' where we can be fairly certain a plane will be built. That only becomes likely when customers sign contracts with penalties for non-performance. Since that hasn't happened yet, Airbus can cancel without facing serious damages.


Guillaume Faury was quite clear in his message: Airbus is going to develop the A350F. You may wish to parse those words to infinity and beyond, debating whether it should be called a launch or not, but it is what it is.

What it certainly doesn't, is bear any resemblance to the often re-defined (without ever being firmly defined) NMA, which was a fluent proposition in an ever disappearing market dominated by the competitor. This is an entry into a growing market with a superior product, a product which the competition don't have an answer to in 6 short years. The next offering by Boeing will be several years late and will (in it's present -8F state) not be competitive (too heavy, no payload advantage, largely irrelevant range advantage).

And who are you to judge whether it will not be competitive or not, do you want to give us details?

QR is willing to order either/or and they have seen both. please speak with sense
 
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zeke
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:34 pm

B777LRF wrote:
So you're totally wrong in that statement, and the value of the nose-door is highly debatable; some airlines hardly ever use that feature and others only very rarely.

For really, true, outsized cargo the options shall remain limited to carriage by Antonov.


The nose loading on the 747 has a limit on the height of the cargo being carried by the cockpit floor. The A330-700 is available for genuine oversize, Antonov is more needed when it’s a question of excess weight like a transformer, something oversize like a racing yacht or an artwork is generally voluminous than dense.

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
They are even taking the courageous 'build it and they will come' approach as they have not announced firm orders.


As I have mentioned previously on this thread a number of times, and as stated above in the public statement by Faury, new emissions standards are putting a line in the sand with current production freighters. Industry will have to buy more modern aircraft.
 
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reidar76
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:38 pm

DE339N wrote:
Public statement by Faury. Plane will EIS in 2025.
https://youtu.be/6mdSicAyapU


Thanks for the link to the interview with the Airbus CEO.

I interpret his statement as Airbus have definitvly launched the A350F. The freighter will be in service in only 4 years time. He makes no reservations in his statement. This is game on.
 
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Revelation
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:44 pm

majano wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
There's no way we can compare a clean sheet design to a derivative that's main challenge is deciding how big door will be cut on the side.

If it was that simple then it'd be done already.

Airbus still has a significant risk/reward decision to make.

The risk isn't of the same magnitude as the NMA, but neither is the reward.

Why are people talking about the NMA here? Did the Boeing BoD ever grant authority to offer on that supposed programme?

No, but IMO they came close.

SteelChair wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
I'm sure Airbus already has various commitments and positive feedback, hence they are going forward.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk


This was my thought exactly. They're not operating in a vacuum. No way, imho, that they would take this step without having had very serious advanced discussions with serious potential customers. If they steal this march on Boeing after being a laggard in the cargo segment for so long, wow, that would be an achievement.

Yes, they are not operating in a vaccum. They have had very serious advanced discussions with serious potential customers. Just like A330F, which had that plus what 39 or so signed contracts but no stolen marches.

B777LRF wrote:
Guillaume Faury was quite clear in his message: Airbus is going to develop the A350F. You may wish to parse those words to infinity and beyond, debating whether it should be called a launch or not, but it is what it is.

What it certainly doesn't, is bear any resemblance to the often re-defined (without ever being firmly defined) NMA, which was a fluent proposition in an ever disappearing market dominated by the competitor. This is an entry into a growing market with a superior product, a product which the competition won't have a compliant answer to in 6 short years. The next offering by Boeing will be several years late and will (in it's present -8F state) not be competitive (too heavy, no payload advantage, largely irrelevant range advantage).

That's your opinion. My opinion is that A350F is at concept stage now with ability to offer, but detailed specifications are probably in flux since they have not been published. I've read the FG article and I don't see anything beyond high level payload/range specifications which is about what we had for NMA when it was canceled. In my opinion, they are more similar than they are different.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:46 pm

oschkosch wrote:
I'm sure Airbus already has various commitments and positive feedback, hence they are going forward.

Informal positive feedback, most certainly. No firm orders though. Those are only possible after today's decision. And if Airbus finds that airlines are unwilling to put their money where their mouth is within the next few months, they can still delay, freeze or cancel the program at relatively little cost.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:55 pm

mxaxai wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
I'm sure Airbus already has various commitments and positive feedback, hence they are going forward.

Informal positive feedback, most certainly. No firm orders though. Those are only possible after today's decision. And if Airbus finds that airlines are unwilling to put their money where their mouth is within the next few months, they can still delay, freeze or cancel the program at relatively little cost.

In other words we're really not in that much different a place than we were four months ago when this thread was started. It seems Airbus has iterated their concept and the related design models a bunch of times and presumably are getting positive feedback from potential customers which is a step forward, but no contracts signed thus no actual commitment to build an airplane.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:23 pm

zeke wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
They are even taking the courageous 'build it and they will come' approach as they have not announced firm orders.

As I have mentioned previously on this thread a number of times, and as stated above in the public statement by Faury, new emissions standards are putting a line in the sand with current production freighters. Industry will have to buy more modern aircraft.


I agree with your assessment. I find it refreshing and courageous for a manufacturer to be so forward thinking, leading the way even before customers commit!
 
mxaxai
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:28 pm

Revelation wrote:
In other words we're really not in that much different a place than we were four months ago when this thread was started. It seems Airbus has iterated their concept and the related design models a bunch of times and presumably are getting positive feedback from potential customers which is a step forward, but no contracts signed thus no actual commitment to build an airplane.

Not quite. The announcement today means that Airbus fixed certain key performance parameters (and the BoD signed off on it, which is an important formality). They're finished with conceptual design and are moving on to preliminary design.

For example, there was a lot of speculation whether the A350F would be based on the -900, the -1000, or a new length inbetween. Even Airbus themselves were running the numbers on multiple configurations. Today, Airbus officially decided on a specific length that they want to sell to airlines.

But Airbus still has the option to cancel at low cost as long as no (or only few) contracts have been signed. Compare the 777-200LR, for example, which was on the verge of cancellation in the early 2000s due to a lack of customers. Or the A350-800, which never got built despite having several orders.
 
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Revelation
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Re: A350F. Airbus looking to launch: Looking for customers

Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:34 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
I agree with your assessment. I find it refreshing and courageous for a manufacturer to be so forward thinking, leading the way even before customers commit!

I think they express forward thinking sentiments when on the public stage, whereas when holding conferences with policy makers their words are inline with what Reuters reports:

Most airliners will rely on traditional jet engines until at least 2050, Airbus (AIR.PA) told European Union officials in a briefing released on Thursday on its research into creating zero-emissions hydrogen fuelled planes.

The planemaker says it plans to develop the world's first zero-emission commercial aircraft by 2035, but has not publicly said whether the technology will be ready for the replacement for the medium-haul A320, due to be rolled out in the 2030s.

February's briefing to EU officials appeared to rule this out.

"Zero-emission hydrogen aircraft will be primarily focused on regional and shorter-range aircraft from 2035. Which means that current and future iterations of highly efficient gas turbines will still be required as we move towards 2050, especially for long-haul operations," the presentation said.

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-06-10/

I don't even think regional aircraft will fall into the hydrogen bucket since these are no longer short ranged.

Then we get to the minor detail that no one has a carbon neutral process to make hydrogen.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:27 pm

Revelation wrote:
In other words we're really not in that much different a place than we were four months ago when this thread was started. It seems Airbus has iterated their concept and the related design models a bunch of times and presumably are getting positive feedback from potential customers which is a step forward, but no contracts signed thus no actual commitment to build an airplane.


Has there ever been a case where Airbus or Boeing had ATO from the board for a model and it didn't get built?

You seem intent on portraying this as something of a "hail mary", when I imagine it's way more significant than that. The board doesn't agree to ATO a project on a whim.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:28 am

scbriml wrote:
Has there ever been a case where Airbus or Boeing had ATO from the board for a model and it didn't get built?


A380F (Both UPS and Fedex assigned customers), A350-800, original A350 (based off A330).

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