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sassiciai
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:10 pm

Revelation wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Of course they can, they did so with the A380F.


Of course not.

Airbus launched the 338 program with only the Hawaiian order, I recall it was for 8. Later, they cancelled and ordered the 787. So it is possible, but I think not prudent, for Airbus to go from this ATO, Authority to Offer, to an actual program launch. Typically, a launch is coupled with announcement of the initial orders.

Airbus projections of possible orders may affect the actual freighter configuration, if lower quantities anticipated it pretty much dictates a freighter the same size as either the 359 or 35X, shrinking the 35X to a new length would add substantial certification time over a program that does not affect the wetted surface. It's a dilemma, as it would be best to optimize the freighter, but adds millions to the price for all of the added certification work. The market size is good but not huge, the 777F has slightly more than 200 in service, 45 in backlog, so 20 per year production.

A lot of my answer was based on context, and some times that is missed.

When asked if Airbus can cancel a program even after "launching" it, of course Airbus can cancel programs (even ones with firm orders), they've done it before. Presumably any order they sign will have termination clauses, and usually orders taken before EIS are easier to cancel than ones for a going concern, for obvious reasons.

When asked if we thought Airbus would launch a program with no commitments at all, of course I think they won't, yet they are a rich corporation and we have no way of knowing how important the program is to their leadership. We have some enthusiastic comments to the media but we're all adults and know there is this thing known as dissembling.

If asked if I think Airbus will launch the program, my answer is as before, I don't know. It's clear they feel the market is supportive of freighters, their A350 is a great baseline model and its production line has more slack in it than desired, and Boeing clearly is in a weakened state. It's still not clear who needs new freighters in the A350F size category any time soon in large enough volume to support a new market entrant, especially if that new market entrant is going to spend a lot to get into the market. Yet Airbus leadership may feel it is a "strategic imperative" to launch a freighter regardless of how strong or weak the business case is. Perhaps this is kind of thinking that led to A330F?

It's interesting to see Boeing's Calhoun publicly warm to the idea of a 777XF. Presumably this is a reaction to the QR statements and the Airbus moves, as well as IMO his reluctance to commit Boeing to a clean sheet airplane program any time soon. He can use the freighter concept as something for the engineers to do after 779, fill some future production slots, and take the heat off him to develop a clean sheet.

Seems we have a risk of a "mutually assured destruction" scenario where both companies launch products because they don't want to yield market to the other and they split the market with neither making enough business to make either program a success. In theory the reason why corporate executives get fat pay packages is because they have the wisdom to see such a scenario emerging in advance and avoid it. That is the theory at least.


Good post! I might still dispute the degree to which this event merits "launch" or not, but let's put that down as semantics with no value!

I am not an aeronautical engineer, just a retired software man who has followed this thread from the start and read - sometimes not understanding some - every post. It seems quite evident seen through my lenses that 2 aircraft competing to do a more-or-less similar task of flying 90+tons of freight circa5000km should be largely similar. But if one is already 20 or 30tons heavier than the other when empty, how is this even a competition? If this premise is close to correct, then this Airbus launch surely cuts the 777F off at its knees!

All the big fleets of A300/B767/B747/MD-11/20-year old P2F will time out/cycle out in a future where the current A350/B777X are just becoming mature, and the competition will become much sharper as there will be limited alternative choice. Will the 20-30ton advantage work in Airbus' favour?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:00 pm

sassiciai wrote:
I am not an aeronautical engineer, just a retired software man who has followed this thread from the start and read - sometimes not understanding some - every post. It seems quite evident seen through my lenses that 2 aircraft competing to do a more-or-less similar task of flying 90+tons of freight circa5000km should be largely similar. But if one is already 20 or 30tons heavier than the other when empty, how is this even a competition? If this premise is close to correct, then this Airbus launch surely cuts the 777F off at its knees!

All the big fleets of A300/B767/B747/MD-11/20-year old P2F will time out/cycle out in a future where the current A350/B777X are just becoming mature, and the competition will become much sharper as there will be limited alternative choice. Will the 20-30ton advantage work in Airbus' favour?

I guess we'll need to see the actual operational specifications, but will say there are cost/benefit tradeoffs for weight, it's not as simple as lighter is better.

Pretty much every new generation of engines weighs more. That's because internal heat and pressure are higher on newer more efficient engines, and short of breakthroughs on cooling or materials the result is more material for more strength and thus more weight. Also the fan is usually bigger, so that means the fan weighs more (again short of a breakthrough on materials), you need to absorb more energy in your containment structures so it needs to be bigger/stronger, pylon has more weight hanging off it so it needs to be stronger, etc. Did GE9X make the right cost/benefit tradeoffs? I guess time will tell. In general the additional weight has paid out over time, but who knows, GE9X may have hit a point of diminishing returns.

Similar thing is true for wings: longer thinner wings are better in cruise but need more structural strength and make fuel storage a bit more of a challenge, more exact airfoils produce better aerodynamics also at some cost in structures, folding wing tips add weight but also add span and thus better cruise performance.

I guess it is encouraging Calhoun speaks of 778F with a lot of confidence since they must have more than enough data by now to tell them what they can expect for performance from the platform. I think he'd be a bit more circumspect if the platform was a non-starter as some here suggest, yet he too could be dissembling.

Any dissembling won't last for too long when we have actual market competition. That's why orders matter, it means the customer has looked all the options in detail and is willing to tie up a lot of their money for a long time in order to get the product. For instance I was a big fan of A330neo and thought it would do well but we see it is not getting the big blue chip orders outside of Delta's. Personally I expected it to do a lot better as it was a proven platform with a proven engine (small delta on T1000/TXWB family) and could be produced relatively cheaply and with relatively quick turn around time, yet we see customers willing to wait longer and pay more for A359/B789. The market took a good look at what was on offer and voted with their wallets. It'll be interesting to see if A350F vs 77XF ends up happening then ends up with one product dominating over the other.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:36 pm

sassiciai wrote:
All the big fleets of A300/B767/B747/MD-11/20-year old P2F will time out/cycle out in a future


Be over 600 freighter aircraft in that category

Revelation wrote:
Pretty much every new generation of engines weighs more.


The Trent XWB-97 is 1200 kg lighter than the GE90-110/115 and 2000 kg lighter than a GE9X.

Refer to relevant engine TCDS for source data.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:31 pm

zeke wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Pretty much every new generation of engines weighs more.

The Trent XWB-97 is 1200 kg lighter than the GE90-110/115 and 2000 kg lighter than a GE9X.

Fair enough, I should have wrote something like "Within a product family, pretty much every new generation of engines weighs more.". Jumping from RR's triple spool to GE's dual spool changes things.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:44 pm

I don't get the "desperation attempt" comments on this.

1. Airbus has everything to WIN in doing this.
2. A future freighter variant was always part of the development process of the A350.
3. The freighter variant can be produced on the same production line as the other A350s.
4. The freighter can be produced with a mix of already existing hardware (A350-1000 wings, wingbox and gear)
5. This is the right time to focus on a freighter version as existing freighters are coming of age, and the competition (777X Freighter) will be delayed.

If anything, it makes common sense.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
It's interesting to see Boeing's Calhoun publicly warm to the idea of a 777XF. Presumably this is a reaction to the QR statements and the Airbus moves, as well as IMO his reluctance to commit Boeing to a clean sheet airplane program any time soon. He can use the freighter concept as something for the engineers to do after 779, fill some future production slots, and take the heat off him to develop a clean sheet.


agree. he will prioritize dividends by not committing to any clean sheet programs. but this allows him to avoid giving the impression that he's content to do nothing, that is to give the impression that he's a 'maintain the status quo until retirement' CEO, even though in fact he's a 'maintain the status quo until he retires' CEO (oh, how I'd love to be wrong on that).

Overall the 77XF freighter is a more expensive proposition than the A350. Airbus is starting from a place of fewer unknowns in terms of building the frame. Airbus will find itself with the A350 pax version supporting the volume that allows the A350 freighter version. However, they are in a riskier space in terms of marketing the frame, where Boeing is the encumbant in the segment.

I don't know that it's a M.A.D. plan, provided that both manufacturers are prepared for slow and steady orders over many years, not relying on those orders to be the primary drivers of the production lines, but rather augmentors.
 
morrisond
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:36 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It's interesting to see Boeing's Calhoun publicly warm to the idea of a 777XF. Presumably this is a reaction to the QR statements and the Airbus moves, as well as IMO his reluctance to commit Boeing to a clean sheet airplane program any time soon. He can use the freighter concept as something for the engineers to do after 779, fill some future production slots, and take the heat off him to develop a clean sheet.


agree. he will prioritize dividends by not committing to any clean sheet programs. but this allows him to avoid giving the impression that he's content to do nothing, that is to give the impression that he's a 'maintain the status quo until retirement' CEO, even though in fact he's a 'maintain the status quo until he retires' CEO (oh, how I'd love to be wrong on that).

Overall the 77XF freighter is a more expensive proposition than the A350. Airbus is starting from a place of fewer unknowns in terms of building the frame. Airbus will find itself with the A350 pax version supporting the volume that allows the A350 freighter version. However, they are in a riskier space in terms of marketing the frame, where Boeing is the encumbant in the segment.

I don't know that it's a M.A.D. plan, provided that both manufacturers are prepared for slow and steady orders over many years, not relying on those orders to be the primary drivers of the production lines, but rather augmentors.


The 777XF is more expensive as it's more expensive to buy - or to develop? One would have to guess that it would be easier as the Engineers are very familiar with it as they just finished it and it has always been part of the plan. It's been what 4-5 years since they did major work on A351?
 
JonesNL
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:36 am

morrisond wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It's interesting to see Boeing's Calhoun publicly warm to the idea of a 777XF. Presumably this is a reaction to the QR statements and the Airbus moves, as well as IMO his reluctance to commit Boeing to a clean sheet airplane program any time soon. He can use the freighter concept as something for the engineers to do after 779, fill some future production slots, and take the heat off him to develop a clean sheet.


agree. he will prioritize dividends by not committing to any clean sheet programs. but this allows him to avoid giving the impression that he's content to do nothing, that is to give the impression that he's a 'maintain the status quo until retirement' CEO, even though in fact he's a 'maintain the status quo until he retires' CEO (oh, how I'd love to be wrong on that).

Overall the 77XF freighter is a more expensive proposition than the A350. Airbus is starting from a place of fewer unknowns in terms of building the frame. Airbus will find itself with the A350 pax version supporting the volume that allows the A350 freighter version. However, they are in a riskier space in terms of marketing the frame, where Boeing is the encumbant in the segment.

I don't know that it's a M.A.D. plan, provided that both manufacturers are prepared for slow and steady orders over many years, not relying on those orders to be the primary drivers of the production lines, but rather augmentors.


The 777XF is more expensive as it's more expensive to buy - or to develop? One would have to guess that it would be easier as the Engineers are very familiar with it as they just finished it and it has always been part of the plan. It's been what 4-5 years since they did major work on A351?


More expensive to develop per frame and more expensive to buy. Lower scale, lack of final baseline and lower production data. Nobody knows the long term durability of those Ge9X engines. The TXWB engines have been flying around quite a lot so reliability is known and fixes are implemented, big PIP already on the horizon before EIS A350F. From that perspective the A350 is the boring choice, while in normal industries the boring choice always prevails in the airliners industry exciting and risky sometimes catches orders; A380
 
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:06 am

Both manufacturers might want to wait until late this decade to come up with the latest engine variant for the new standards then?
 
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:15 am

Noshow wrote:
Both manufacturers might want to wait until late this decade to come up with the latest engine variant for the new standards then?

If the market is left without a viable product, customers will be left searching for products that are sub optimised. Just look at those airlines that are waiting for a new version of the B757 and not having something 100% suitable to buy. If Airbus and Boeing offered the A350F/B778F, customers will have something suitable for their operations. Although sales may initially be slow, there should be steady orders over the years since there is a big fleet of old freighters that need to be replaced.
 
texl1649
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:08 am

Noshow wrote:
Both manufacturers might want to wait until late this decade to come up with the latest engine variant for the new standards then?


Freighters tend to operate a long time (and even get built/ordered) with an older generation of engines, it’s not really driven directly by cost per seat mile a la pax, so much. See: still-flying MD-11F’s, 76F’s, A300F, etc.

What hasn’t happened, in a long time anyway, are a lot of new build freighters with RR engines under the wings. Some variant of a GE9X would be fascinating on an A350F, as has been discussed here and elsewhere. GE is certainly looking to/motivated get it on another type (just speculation, but we had reports of this 6+ months ago). A new (generation) engine, on a new freighter would be intriguing.
 
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:58 am

GE on the A350? Now that would be interesting for the passenger version as well. But what would it mean for RR and their close partnership with Airbus?
 
RB211trent
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:18 am

Noshow wrote:
GE on the A350? Now that would be interesting for the passenger version as well. But what would it mean for RR and their close partnership with Airbus?

RR has exclusivity on all A350 variants including the freighter
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:38 am

RB211trent wrote:
Noshow wrote:
GE on the A350? Now that would be interesting for the passenger version as well. But what would it mean for RR and their close partnership with Airbus?

RR has exclusivity on all A350 variants including the freighter


Certainly on the -1000 which seems to be the base of the Freighter
 
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:13 am

JerseyFlyer wrote:
RB211trent wrote:
Noshow wrote:
GE on the A350? Now that would be interesting for the passenger version as well. But what would it mean for RR and their close partnership with Airbus?

RR has exclusivity on all A350 variants including the freighter


Certainly on the -1000 which seems to be the base of the Freighter

RR also signed an exclusivity agreement earlier this year covering the -900 that lasts until 2030.

Even if the freighter is not covered GE is not going to go through the expense of developing an XWB engine that can’t be used on the passenger variants. If the A350F is a -1000 shrink (which it is looking like) then a passenger version’s appeal will be niche.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:23 am

Opus99 wrote:
As usual if a random person were to read A.net they will think it’s only A350s that airlines buy. It’s like a cult, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that aircraft, perfect for everything and all things but the market says otherwise.


I don't think thats quite true. What is true is that airlines have a preference for capable, fuel-efficient aircraft with low maintenance costs, they want a decent amount of floor space for premium products, but not so much floor space that they end up with too many economy seats. Equally they want reliable transatlantic or trans pacific range, but too much range is associated with cost/efficiency penalties. Airplanes like the A380 and 747 don't meet those requirement for many airlines and even the 777-9 strays into that territory. Every 779 customer, bar CX has operated the A380 and all customers have operated either the 747 or A380. the 77x family clearly does not have the wide appeal the 77E and 77W enjoyed.

For most passenger airlines the 787-9 with 886 orders and the A350-900 with 747 orders are the large wide bodies of choice. I think the question on the thread is what does the 77XF offer to customers that the A350F does not? Does the additional weight, marginally newer engines and wing translate into a viable proposition? The order book of the 77X suggests that hasn't been desirable for passenger airlines outside premium-heavy hubs. Might the 77XF be more attractive to 'traditional', dense cargo operators while the A350F appeals to lower density, higher volume package and e-commerce shipments?
 
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:23 am

Please keep the thread on topic. I'll remind users that sources are necessary when making specific claims — otherwise it needs to be stated as an opinion.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
texl1649
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:50 am

Polot wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
RB211trent wrote:
RR has exclusivity on all A350 variants including the freighter


Certainly on the -1000 which seems to be the base of the Freighter

RR also signed an exclusivity agreement earlier this year covering the -900 that lasts until 2030.

Even if the freighter is not covered GE is not going to go through the expense of developing an XWB engine that can’t be used on the passenger variants. If the A350F is a -1000 shrink (which it is looking like) then a passenger version’s appeal will be niche.


I think the triggering effect of a GeNx v2.0 with GE9X tech is that it could help GE get more business on NMA/787 etc. I am mainly basing this on some news/comments we’ve seen over the past 7 months;

https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-deve ... ing-777xf/

Selection of a GE engine for the A350 freighter would trigger no small domino effect, stretching across Boeing and Airbus civil and defense products. Given its exclusivity agreement with Boeing, GE is prohibited from offering the GE9X directly to the A350. Such a power plant would be a larger second-generation GEnx engine, derived from elements of the GE9X and would effectively spark a re-engining on both the A350 and the 787-9 and -10, according to a person familiar with GE’s long-term engine strategy planning. The 787 would benefit, not necessarily from the greater thrust, but the significantly improved fuel economy.


Now, going back thru the thread that was discussed prior to the March 2021 RR Airbus exclusivity arrangement, yet that only covers the 900 and 1000, I believe;

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/rolls-s ... 2021-03-11

Rolls has obviously bought time I think thru 2030 on present versions, but a ‘tweener’ 950 I am not sure would qualify (and any pax version(s) wouldn’t be rolled out/certified/sold until after 2030 anyway;

Rolls already had a formal exclusive agreement to provide Trent XWB-family engines on the larger A350-1000 wide-body jet, and held what industry sources have described as "de facto" exclusivity on the stronger-selling A350-900 until 2025.

Thursday's deal - disclosed as Rolls plunged to a record 4 billion pound ($5.6 billion) 2020 loss - throws backing to the troubled engine maker and counters speculation that GE could enter the programme any time soon.

"We're already exclusive on the A350-1000, and extending our position on the -900 variant, that accounts for the bulk of the A350 fleet, out to 2030 is in line with the development timeline for our next generation UltraFan engine programme," Rolls-Royce Chief Executive Warren East told reporters.


GE, like Airbus, isn’t really developing anything new right now, are they? An engineering staff with resources to throw at an integration/upgrade like this might make a lot of sense, still, from a dominos/relationship/platform risk mitigation perspective with Airbus.
 
gsoflyer
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:56 am

leoben wrote:
zeke wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
But major cargo hubs like MEM and SDF do.


I don't know enough about SDF to comment on that, the majority of stands at MEM do not have direct terminal access, and I would think wherever the A300/MD11/777 park now would be able to accommodate an A330/A350. Again I think this is a red herring, they went from 108 ft on the 727 to 160+ ft for the 763F without the world stopping.


Regardless of how one defines"gate", (and all of FX's operation is completely separated from the passenger terminal by over a mile) - when I ask the bus driver in MEM to take us to "gate XYZ", there is no confusion.

At FX, and specifically at MEM, the A300, 767 and MD10/11's are mixed into the ramps w/o much discrimination (there are areas which only take 757s), but the 777s are relegated to just 5 "gates" with direct access to Victor taxiway. The other 7 are over on the ramp south of 9/27. That is for an operation with around 200 "gates" At no time do the 777s mix with the general population. B767F has a wingspan of 156', MD11 is 170' vs B777 and A350 are 212'. 777s cannot even maneuver into or out of most ramp areas. The talk about ramp space issues at the sorts is not hyperbole, it is very much a consideration. IND and EWR and OAK each have a handful of 777 capable "gates" - some of which require tow-in and are rarely utilized, AFW and GSO do not have any. As one would expect, ANC is setup to accommodate the 777s fairly effectively, 1/2 of the dozen or so "gates" are capable and there are a few overflow spots available. And while there are a small number of flights that do not touch the sorts, they are very small minority. Anything larger than the MD-11 is an issue. Other than as a replacement for what are effectively new 777s, or as a small specialized subfleet; A350F's at FX is implausible based on current system form. The particulars at 5X or DHL may be different but I believe the fundamentals are the same.

FX and 5X together operate 700+ mainline aircraft- 500+ of which are widebodies. How many WB freighters are there total in the world? Quick google search brought up a CargoFacts report from early 2018 - 1035 total . With a couple of intervening years of retirements, deliveries and conversions, lets call it 1200. Add DHL and AMZN contractors, and you have more than half of the total worldwide fleet. Yes, it is very US-centric to focus so much on FX/5X, but they are the 500lb gorillas. Seems fairly reasonable that integrating into Express operations would be somewhere on the list of considerations.

If one subtracts the number of operators who cannot or would not purchase a new large widebody aircraft, how many potential sales does that leave? Is there enough demand from the "straight" cargo operators for new tech and incremental efficiency improvements to make this viable? The A350F sounds like a desirable aircraft with great capabilities. But does the market exist for it to sell into - based on existing industry trends and realities? Maybe so - Airbus management sounds optimistic and they would know, but even with a low target for sales (as a derivative on main A350 production) it seems like a relatively tight window of opportunity.


GSO does have 777 capable gates, just not on the current FedEx ramp. Keep in mind, the old freight ramp area (only used by UPS, DHL, and Asia Pacific/Aloha/iAero) can handle it and it is right next to the FedEx ramp.
 
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:44 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
I don't get the "desperation attempt" comments on this.

1. Airbus has everything to WIN in doing this.
2. A future freighter variant was always part of the development process of the A350.
3. The freighter variant can be produced on the same production line as the other A350s.
4. The freighter can be produced with a mix of already existing hardware (A350-1000 wings, wingbox and gear)
5. This is the right time to focus on a freighter version as existing freighters are coming of age, and the competition (777X Freighter) will be delayed.

If anything, it makes common sense.

You seem to be saying it will take neither desperation nor courage to launch the A350F.

Personally I think it'll take a bit of both, but I don't know what the decision makers know.

If they're sitting on a bag of orders, great, do it and spare us the fanfare.

The fanfare suggests they aren't sitting on a bag of orders.

Time will tell.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:59 pm

Revelation wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
I don't get the "desperation attempt" comments on this.

1. Airbus has everything to WIN in doing this.
2. A future freighter variant was always part of the development process of the A350.
3. The freighter variant can be produced on the same production line as the other A350s.
4. The freighter can be produced with a mix of already existing hardware (A350-1000 wings, wingbox and gear)
5. This is the right time to focus on a freighter version as existing freighters are coming of age, and the competition (777X Freighter) will be delayed.

If anything, it makes common sense.

You seem to be saying it will take neither desperation nor courage to launch the A350F.

Personally I think it'll take a bit of both, but I don't know what the decision makers know.

If they're sitting on a bag of orders, great, do it and spare us the fanfare.

The fanfare suggests they aren't sitting on a bag of orders.

Time will tell.


There's always risk and there's always some courage involved in these things. But desperation, I don't think so.

This is not a moon shot project by any metric. It's an opportunity to get their foot in the door in a lucrative market for the next few decades.

In my opinion it would be silly not to attempt it. Even with no firm orders as per today.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:23 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
There's always risk and there's always some courage involved in these things. But desperation, I don't think so.

This is not a moon shot project by any metric. It's an opportunity to get their foot in the door in a lucrative market for the next few decades.

In my opinion it would be silly not to attempt it. Even with no firm orders as per today.

Fair comments, well stated. I see a degree of desperation because I don't think they'd be doing this at this point in time if we didn't have all the cancellations and deferments due to the pandemic and them needing to lean on the A350 more as A330neo has trailed expectations regardless of the pandemic, IMO. It's OK if our opinions aren't 100% aligned.

I'll give a bit of pushback on the word "lucrative". Seems the a.net narrative when Boeing sells freighters is they are just filling up slots in a production line, probably losing money on each, just doing it to keep the line ticking over because they can't sell passenger aircraft. Will we see the narrative change should Airbus improve its stature in the freighter business? Do we think A350F can be lucrative needing to recoup its initial investment then having 772F, 77XF, 77WF holding down its pricing power?
 
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flee
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:27 pm

Although it is an interesting prospect, doesn't having a GE engined A350 freighter mean that it will cost more as GE has to design and certify an adaptation for its Boeing exclusive engine? The RR Trent XWB engine is ready to go without additional work needed.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:05 pm

Revelation wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
There's always risk and there's always some courage involved in these things. But desperation, I don't think so.

This is not a moon shot project by any metric. It's an opportunity to get their foot in the door in a lucrative market for the next few decades.

In my opinion it would be silly not to attempt it. Even with no firm orders as per today.

Fair comments, well stated. I see a degree of desperation because I don't think they'd be doing this at this point in time if we didn't have all the cancellations and deferments due to the pandemic and them needing to lean on the A350 more as A330neo has trailed expectations regardless of the pandemic, IMO. It's OK if our opinions aren't 100% aligned.

I'll give a bit of pushback on the word "lucrative". Seems the a.net narrative when Boeing sells freighters is they are just filling up slots in a production line, probably losing money on each, just doing it to keep the line ticking over because they can't sell passenger aircraft. Will we see the narrative change should Airbus improve its stature in the freighter business? Do we think A350F can be lucrative needing to recoup its initial investment then having 772F, 77XF, 77WF holding down its pricing power?


Well, like everything else in aviation it's a risk vs reward project. If the risk is low - which I think it is - the reward doesn't necessarily have to be as large. The domestic passenger market is growing back almost to pre-pandemic levels, but international long haul is very slow for the time being. Maybe it won't bounce back as fast or as high as before the pandemic. Some of the changes we're seeing could be more or less permanent. If that's the case, the freighter market will be lucrative in the long term.

My point being that the risk is low, but the reward might be high. And even if it ends up a total failure, they haven't spent that many resources on it. It would be R&D that could be applied to future aircraft as well.

Airbus is throwing chum in the water. It's a fishing expedition at this point, and I think it's a good idea.

When it comes to a.net narrative on Boeing freighters, I haven't paid much attention to that.
 
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Heavierthanair
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:38 pm

G'day

I take it a go-ahead is a matter of weeks maybe months and launch customers will be announced. Some of those orders may or may not come from carriers such as Fedex or UPS that some folks believe represent the center of the universe or carriers from the middle east that made noises about buying new generation freighters. Lots of Asian and European airlines operate freighters and may well add the A350F version to the passenger A350's they already operate, commonality always helps. Airbus has been working on the Qantas Sunrise project to improve range, payload to make the A350 more capable, all of which come in handy to design an even more capable freighter version. So I guess it is a matter of when and not if that the 350F will be formally launched. I guess with its panel composite design it is easy to integrate a large freight door without compromising performance, minimizing any potential risk. Powered by the proven Rolls XWB engine means further reducing risk and providing commonality with the passenger version. Besides I believe both the Rolls XWB and the GE9X have exclusivity with the relevant manufacturers.

Cheers

Peter
 
Rekoff
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:52 pm

Revelation wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
There's always risk and there's always some courage involved in these things. But desperation, I don't think so.

This is not a moon shot project by any metric. It's an opportunity to get their foot in the door in a lucrative market for the next few decades.

In my opinion it would be silly not to attempt it. Even with no firm orders as per today.

Fair comments, well stated. I see a degree of desperation because I don't think they'd be doing this at this point in time if we didn't have all the cancellations and deferments due to the pandemic and them needing to lean on the A350 more as A330neo has trailed expectations regardless of the pandemic, IMO. It's OK if our opinions aren't 100% aligned.

I'll give a bit of pushback on the word "lucrative". Seems the a.net narrative when Boeing sells freighters is they are just filling up slots in a production line, probably losing money on each, just doing it to keep the line ticking over because they can't sell passenger aircraft. Will we see the narrative change should Airbus improve its stature in the freighter business? Do we think A350F can be lucrative needing to recoup its initial investment then having 772F, 77XF, 77WF holding down its pricing power?


I think you (and others) are grasping at straws here. Airbus is very well positioned financially and technologically ATM. With A320 making the vast majority of money, everything else is just extra. Even when we focus on the A350 series; if the freighter program really "launches" that will be a very limited sunk cost. If it launches but doesnt find much tracking it will weight the program a bit down, but the program isnt in such a deep money pit as the 787 or 777X programs currently are. If it launches and does find tracking it will add a bit to the bottom line, but it's not a make or break for the A350 program as a whole.

OTOH for Boeing, the succes of the 777X freighter might very well mean make or break for the program as a whole. Airbus, with this 'ATO' is moving the puck again where it hurts most for Boeing, and when Boeing responds a few years later (with the 777XF), Airbus will already be skating to the next place where the puck will be, most likely (and yes I'm aware of their recent comments) the A322.

There's a lot of sour grapes here TBH.
 
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:35 am

Any chance this could launch with Ultrafans, and help speed up that development?
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:06 am

Heavierthanair wrote:
I guess with its panel composite design it is easy to integrate a large freight door without compromising performance, minimizing any potential risk.


That is my understanding, the side panels change to remove passenger doors and windows for a freighter configuration.

Rekoff wrote:
If it launches and does find tracking it will add a bit to the bottom line, but it's not a make or break for the A350 program as a whole.


I think the roadmap Airbus has is to position the A350 everywhere the 77X is to hurt the 77X business case with customer airlines.

The freighter is in my view just one part of that strategy, they have also broadcast the intention to market a longer aircraft the so called A350-1100 or A350-2000 which has been discussed on a.net numerous times. I think this is exactly the strategy Boeing used against Airbus with the A380.

Rekoff wrote:

There's a lot of sour grapes here TBH.


I agree esp the comment about cancellations and deferments without a source. The sunrise decision by QF I think really hurt the 777-8 business case with other airlines.

Slug71 wrote:
Any chance this could launch with Ultrafans, and help speed up that development?


I would see the next step will be to incorporate Advance3 technology into the XWB similar to what RR did with the Perl 10x engine for the Falcon 10X.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:24 am

The freighter will surely not get different engines than the pax version, because then it does no longer fit easily into the existing production set-up and certification would become expensive.
 
LX321
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:23 am

Slug71 wrote:
Any chance this could launch with Ultrafans, and help speed up that development?


Faury stated that EIS is in 2025 so I doubt that.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:31 am

I think we will see some A350F orders by the end of this year, OR a "pause" in development work.

I do wonder if groups like IAG will be reviewing their "belly only" freight strategies in the light of growth in global airfreight, which may provide earlier initial purchase opportunities for a new efficient freighter than the established freight players.
 
Scotron12
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:22 am

JerseyFlyer wrote:
I think we will see some A350F orders by the end of this year, OR a "pause" in development work.

I do wonder if groups like IAG will be reviewing their "belly only" freight strategies in the light of growth in global airfreight, which may provide earlier initial purchase opportunities for a new efficient freighter than the established freight players.


AFAIK BA, or IB, have never had a dedicated freighter fleet, apart from 3 x B748s painted in BA livery on a wet lease from Atlas a few years back.

I think IAG have an arrangement with QR for freight, I could be wrong.
 
Opus99
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:53 am

Scotron12 wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
I think we will see some A350F orders by the end of this year, OR a "pause" in development work.

I do wonder if groups like IAG will be reviewing their "belly only" freight strategies in the light of growth in global airfreight, which may provide earlier initial purchase opportunities for a new efficient freighter than the established freight players.


AFAIK BA, or IB, have never had a dedicated freighter fleet, apart from 3 x B748s painted in BA livery on a wet lease from Atlas a few years back.

I think IAG have an arrangement with QR for freight, I could be wrong.

No you’re right. They do
 
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:56 am

They are co owned by Qatar.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:16 am

seahawk wrote:
The freighter will surely not get different engines than the pax version, because then it does no longer fit easily into the existing production set-up and certification would become expensive.


I would see something like what was done on the 744, the RB211-524 had an upgrade to include the hot section from the A330 engine, the engine was called the RB211-524G/H-T. If they were to include the tested and flown Advance3 technology (eg the 70:1 core upgrade) into the Trent XWB, it could still remain a Trent XWB derivative, I see no reason the engines could not be used on passenger or freighter aircraft.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:40 pm

Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

I take it a go-ahead is a matter of weeks maybe months and launch customers will be announced. Some of those orders may or may not come from carriers such as Fedex or UPS that some folks believe represent the center of the universe or carriers from the middle east that made noises about buying new generation freighters. Lots of Asian and European airlines operate freighters and may well add the A350F version to the passenger A350's they already operate, commonality always helps. Airbus has been working on the Qantas Sunrise project to improve range, payload to make the A350 more capable, all of which come in handy to design an even more capable freighter version. So I guess it is a matter of when and not if that the 350F will be formally launched. I guess with its panel composite design it is easy to integrate a large freight door without compromising performance, minimizing any potential risk. Powered by the proven Rolls XWB engine means further reducing risk and providing commonality with the passenger version. Besides I believe both the Rolls XWB and the GE9X have exclusivity with the relevant manufacturers.

Cheers

Peter

Exaggeration for effect?

FX and 5X matter not because of prestige but because of money. They they buy freighters in these size categories in quantities far greater than anyone else. This lets you establish a production volume that gains you more efficiency so you have room to discount further orders or choose to harvest more profit. It also adds credibility to the product so financiers and lessors feel they can invest in deals for the product with other carriers and if things go bad with the deal they may be able to sell it on to FX or 5X and get back some of their money. Selling to lots of small operators incurs non-recoverable engineering tasks for each and adds risk that the small operator may change its mind, lose key business or even go bankrupt before the plane gets delivered. QR is not quite as big but they are owned by their nation's sovereign wealth fund, you won't have to worry about them going bankrupt.

I've written several times now that I think A350 is a fine product and A350F will also be a fine product if one gets built. The only real questions I have are if they will line enough business to launch the product and to eventually make money on it.
 
Daysleeper
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:15 pm

Revelation wrote:

You seem to be saying it will take neither desperation nor courage to launch the A350F.

Personally I think it'll take a bit of both, but I don't know what the decision makers know.

If they're sitting on a bag of orders, great, do it and spare us the fanfare.

The fanfare suggests they aren't sitting on a bag of orders.

Time will tell.


I am a little confused of the logic behind the opinions you have expressed in this thread. The A350 has around 900 orders and managed to go cash positive in 2018, with around 500 still left to be delivered it will undoubtedly be a very profitable enterprise for Airbus and given the low cost of developing a freighter I don’t see that changing – So how you deduce that it represents courage or desperation is beyond me.

Counter that with Boeing’s current position; The 77X is likely to be 3 to 4 years late into service which not only is going to increase the program cost but also reduce any potential profit on each frame due to compensation for late delivery. In fact, given Tim Clarks recent antics it may possibly be worse, the program may have slipped so much as to allow order cancellations without any real penalty, not that I think EK will do that, but Sir Tim has Boeing by the balls and he knows it. So its going to cost Boeing big.


Revelation wrote:

I've written several times now that I think A350 is a fine product and A350F will also be a fine product if one gets built. The only real questions I have are if they will line enough business to launch the product and to eventually make money on it.


Given you acknowledge the potential of the product Airbus will be able to offer, I again do not see how you can call launching it as being either desperate or courageous. Given the program's current position and that it is likely to be in production for another decade allowing them ample time to find follow up freighter orders – they have nothing lose. Boeing on the other hand maybe depending on a future XF to give the program any chance of being profitable….
 
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:00 pm

Daysleeper wrote:
Given you acknowledge the potential of the product Airbus will be able to offer, I again do not see how you can call launching it as being either desperate or courageous.

Potential is just that, potential. Airbus thought A330F had potential, it fizzled.

The comment on desperation vs courage was a reaction to an earlier post, and I wrote it takes a bit of each. Note: just a bit. Some seem to be reacting to the words.

Desperation: Pandemic means they have A350s and A330neos not taken up or deferred, A350 production rate slower than planned. perhaps they want to change perceptions after the A330F fizzled.

Courage: No clear launch customers at least up to this point in time, most potential launch customers have already bought 777F/748F heavily, 77WF conversions are going to be entering the market.

It's just my point of view, you don't have to agree with it, but I think I've explained it pretty clearly.

I'm not sure why the comments about just using the A350 production line for the A350F are significant, pretty much every freighter of the jet age has done it that way.

I'm not sure why people want to emphasize the A vs B stuff any more than it already is, it's something forum rules warn us about and there are other threads to talk about Boeing's situation in general and the 777X in particular if you want to do that.
 
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:14 pm

Leehamnews.com have a podcast about the A350F and impact on Boeing: https://leehamnews.com/2021/08/03/podca ... on-boeing/

In the podcast, Leeham news claims 787F not an option for Boeing, and suggests Boeing could have a new 777X freighter ready years after EIS of the A350F.

Note that Leeham again writes that the A350F has been launched: "Airbus last week launched the A350 freighter program.".

Concerning a potential 77XF things are way more uncertain. According to FlightGlobal, Calhoun said: “I am confident that might be the next of our programmes,” while stressing that “he is not suggesting Boeing has already launched [an ICAO-compliant 777X freighter] or that ‘we have one planned’.” In other words, Boeing is not even ready to admit they have plans for an ICAO-compliant freighter. Leeham suggests Boeing might try to circumvent ICAO-regulations by going via Boeings leasing arm.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 18.article
 
Daysleeper
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
Potential is just that, potential. Airbus thought A330F had potential, it fizzled. .

I honestly do not know enough about the A330F to really comment, but I believe its development was tied in with the MRTT so the risk was relatively low.

Revelation wrote:
The comment on desperation vs courage was a reaction to an earlier post, and I wrote it takes a bit of each. Note: just a bit. Some seem to be reacting to the words.

Desperation: Pandemic means they have A350s and A330neos not taken up or deferred, A350 production rate slower than planned. perhaps they want to change perceptions after the A330F fizzled.

Courage: No clear launch customers at least up to this point in time, most potential launch customers have already bought 777F/748F heavily, 77WF conversions are going to be entering the market.

Perhaps it’s just the language you have used; desperation to me implies taking any risk to achieve your goal as failure is not an option. I just don’t see how this applies to the A350 program, even with deferred or cancelled orders and a slow in production. The A350 program is going to make money, freighter version or not.
,
As for courage; well as has been pointed out by many including yourself earlier in the thread this is an ATO rather than a launch. Low risk, I mean I assume they don’t fire and hire their engineers on a per project basis so means they are paying them anyway, they may as well do something usefull.
.
Revelation wrote:
I'm not sure why people want to emphasize the A vs B stuff any more than it already is, it's something forum rules warn us about and there are other threads to talk about Boeing's situation in general and the 777X in particular if you want to do that.

I had no intention of sparking an A vs B debate and I apologise if it came over that way, I just wanted to emphasize the point that Airbus is in a good position with A350 program and clearly does not need to act out of desperation
 
trex8
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:54 pm

Revelation wrote:
[
Potential is just that, potential. Airbus thought A330F had potential, it fizzled.


Things can always change but Airbus launched the A332F with 32 orders and at EIS had 66 orders. Many did fizzle for sure. A350F has a market niche I think many will agree is larger than the A330s
https://www.flightglobal.com/airbuss-ge ... 31.article
 
Rekoff
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:00 pm

Revelation wrote:

The comment on desperation vs courage was a reaction to an earlier post, and I wrote it takes a bit of each. Note: just a bit. Some seem to be reacting to the words.

Desperation: Pandemic means they have A350s and A330neos not taken up or deferred, A350 production rate slower than planned. perhaps they want to change perceptions after the A330F fizzled.

Courage: No clear launch customers at least up to this point in time, most potential launch customers have already bought 777F/748F heavily, 77WF conversions are going to be entering the market.

It's just my point of view, you don't have to agree with it, but I think I've explained it pretty clearly.


it just doesn't work that way. You can't just use a word with a very specifc, extreme meaning and then with your point of view come nowhere near the definition of the word.

Here's the definition of desperation by Webster:

1: loss of hope and surrender to despair
2: a state of hopelessness leading to rashness (Webster) / recklessness (Farlex)

It means you are willing to go all in, lose all or pull defeat from the jaws of victory. This just isnt the case with the A350 program. Words have a meaning and we can't just redefine them to our own predeliction.

I guess you will stick to your words but this has to be refuted or words have no objective, common agreed meaning at all.
Last edited by Rekoff on Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Opus99
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:15 pm

reidar76 wrote:
Leehamnews.com have a podcast about the A350F and impact on Boeing: https://leehamnews.com/2021/08/03/podca ... on-boeing/

In the podcast, Leeham news claims 787F not an option for Boeing, and suggests Boeing could have a new 777X freighter ready years after EIS of the A350F.

Note that Leeham again writes that the A350F has been launched: "Airbus last week launched the A350 freighter program.".

Concerning a potential 77XF things are way more uncertain. According to FlightGlobal, Calhoun said: “I am confident that might be the next of our programmes,” while stressing that “he is not suggesting Boeing has already launched [an ICAO-compliant 777X freighter] or that ‘we have one planned’.” In other words, Boeing is not even ready to admit they have plans for an ICAO-compliant freighter. Leeham suggests Boeing might try to circumvent ICAO-regulations by going via Boeings leasing arm.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 18.article

They might circumvent for the 767F. If you’re going to say something please complete it. Leeham also spoke about when the 777XF might be offered and when they think it will come into service.
 
Noshow
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:18 pm

So where exactly has Airbus stated that they have launched it?
 
Rekoff
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:28 pm

Opus99 wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
Leehamnews.com have a podcast about the A350F and impact on Boeing: https://leehamnews.com/2021/08/03/podca ... on-boeing/

In the podcast, Leeham news claims 787F not an option for Boeing, and suggests Boeing could have a new 777X freighter ready years after EIS of the A350F.

Note that Leeham again writes that the A350F has been launched: "Airbus last week launched the A350 freighter program.".

Concerning a potential 77XF things are way more uncertain. According to FlightGlobal, Calhoun said: “I am confident that might be the next of our programmes,” while stressing that “he is not suggesting Boeing has already launched [an ICAO-compliant 777X freighter] or that ‘we have one planned’.” In other words, Boeing is not even ready to admit they have plans for an ICAO-compliant freighter. Leeham suggests Boeing might try to circumvent ICAO-regulations by going via Boeings leasing arm.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 18.article

They might circumvent for the 767F. If you’re going to say something please complete it. Leeham also spoke about when the 777XF might be offered and when they think it will come into service.


Scott Hamilton must have completely misunderstood his anonymous source because the ICAO is very clear about the standard and how it applies to various planes: https://www.icao.int/Newsroom/Pages/ICA ... craft.aspx

They are very clear that the standard is applicable to:
“Individual non-CO2-certified subsonic jet aeroplanes of greater than 5 700 kg maximum certificated take-off mass for which a certificate of airworthiness was first issued on or after 1 January 2028;”

So this is a very hard stop to actual production of these type of planes after jan 1st 2028, irrespective if someone ordered before or after that cutoff date. What is possible: Boeing Capital orders, and Boeing Commercial produces a few extra before the cutoff date. They have experience with large inventories nowadays so a dozen extra 767s would be hardly noticed…but that’s *not* what was claimed in the podcast.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:58 pm

Rekoff wrote:
Revelation wrote:
The comment on desperation vs courage was a reaction to an earlier post, and I wrote it takes a bit of each. Note: just a bit. Some seem to be reacting to the words.

it just doesn't work that way. You can't just use a word with a very specifc, extreme meaning and then with your point of view come nowhere near the definition of the word.

Thing is, I used the word in a very specific context, and you and others have removed it from that context and are making yourselves upset by the result of doing that.

Again, keep in mind the context, it was written earlier in this thread that "Entering the large freighter market is courageous" and my response was:

Revelation wrote:
There's a line from a Bruce Springsteen song that seems applicable to me, it is along the lines of "I can't tell my courage from my desperation". I'm not saying it's either/or, I'm saying it's probably some of each.

It's strange to me that you react strongly to the word 'desperation' yet not to 'courage'.

Here's the definition of 'courage' via dictionary.com: "the quality of mind or spirit that enables a person to face difficulty, danger, pain, etc., without fear; bravery."

Bravery is just as strong as despair, yet you aren't railing about that.

Desperation is just the antonym of courage, and that's the context I used it in.

I'm still OK with my choice of words, and still surprised people are reacting the way they are, and in some cases distorting what I wrote.
 
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:09 pm

trex8 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
[
Potential is just that, potential. Airbus thought A330F had potential, it fizzled.


Things can always change but Airbus launched the A332F with 32 orders and at EIS had 66 orders. Many did fizzle for sure. A350F has a market niche I think many will agree is larger than the A330s
https://www.flightglobal.com/airbuss-ge ... 31.article


Many lessors converted 330F orders to pax to meet unexpected demand for capacity due to the initial 787 delays. The surprise for me was that they did not then backfill with replacement F orders.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:15 pm

Noshow wrote:
So where exactly has Airbus stated that they have launched it?

https://www.aviationtoday.com/2021/07/3 ... freighter/ gives a pretty good rendition of what Airbus CEO Faury said and did not say regarding the A350F.

“It is our ambition to continuously adapt and evolve our product in line with customer needs, as an example we did it with the A321XLR back in 2019. In that period and following positive customer feedback we obtained the board of directors approval for the freighter derivative of our well-established A350 platform,” Faury said. “Based on the efficiency of the A350, the freighter version is planned to deliver lower fuel burn compared to freighter versions of that size, for example around 20 percent less fuel burn compared to twins, 20 percent less compared to tri-jets, and 40 percent less compared to quads, four-engine planes.”

Faury said the A350 freighter will be compliant with the International Civil Aviation Organization’s (ICAO) CO2 design certification emissions standard when it becomes effective in 2028. No other major design or performance details were released by Airbus about the A350 freighter during the call.

According to Faury, Airbus is still assessing market demand for the new A350 variant and has not yet arrived at a set production rate but will build its development into existing A350 assembly lines.

Since people like to parse words, I think it's interesting that he's just now telling us that the Airbus board granted approval to start working on a freighter back in 2019, and that he never used the word 'launch'.
 
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:29 pm

Revelation wrote:
Noshow wrote:
So where exactly has Airbus stated that they have launched it?

https://www.aviationtoday.com/2021/07/3 ... freighter/ gives a pretty good rendition of what Airbus CEO Faury said and did not say regarding the A350F.

“It is our ambition to continuously adapt and evolve our product in line with customer needs, as an example we did it with the A321XLR back in 2019. In that period and following positive customer feedback we obtained the board of directors approval for the freighter derivative of our well-established A350 platform,” Faury said. “Based on the efficiency of the A350, the freighter version is planned to deliver lower fuel burn compared to freighter versions of that size, for example around 20 percent less fuel burn compared to twins, 20 percent less compared to tri-jets, and 40 percent less compared to quads, four-engine planes.”

Faury said the A350 freighter will be compliant with the International Civil Aviation Organization’s (ICAO) CO2 design certification emissions standard when it becomes effective in 2028. No other major design or performance details were released by Airbus about the A350 freighter during the call.

According to Faury, Airbus is still assessing market demand for the new A350 variant and has not yet arrived at a set production rate but will build its development into existing A350 assembly lines.

Since people like to parse words, I think it's interesting that he's just now telling us that the Airbus board granted approval to start working on a freighter back in 2019, and that he never used the word 'launch'.


Yes generally when you launch some of those important things like payload at range might be one fo those things you announce. This is just advanced market research. As in "If we were to build an A350F - what would you like to see it be able to do?"
 
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reidar76
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:02 pm

Noshow wrote:
So where exactly has Airbus stated that they have launched it?


Interview with Airbus CEO:
https://youtu.be/6mdSicAyapU

I interpret his statement as Airbus have definitvly launched the A350F. EIS in 2025. He makes no reservations.

Quotes:
"We have the -900 and the -1000, and now we are very happy to bring a freighter to market" ... "EIS of the freighter version in 2025"

I expect a press conference in the September-Desember time frame with more details about the A350F, including disclosure of launch customers. Some may call that the actual launch, but make no mistake, the A350F is coming into service in 2025.
Last edited by reidar76 on Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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