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JoergAtADN
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:20 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
RR's power by the hour.


This will not wor for RR, because some freight airlines use the plan around the clock and others only two times each night.

DHL, UPS and Fedex would be very happy to get subsidized engines, and pay only a few hours a day. The perfect short-haul widebody freighter for them.
 
texl1649
Posts: 1895
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:01 pm

JoergAtADN wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
RR's power by the hour.


This will not wor for RR, because some freight airlines use the plan around the clock and others only two times each night.

DHL, UPS and Fedex would be very happy to get subsidized engines, and pay only a few hours a day. The perfect short-haul widebody freighter for them.


That’s not how the plan works. It’s more like the very old now cell plans where the per minute rate was astronomical for 500 minutes a month, and very reasonable comparatively for 5,000. RR isn’t dumb, but their plans have never really fit the broad freighter market.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:00 am

texl1649 wrote:
JoergAtADN wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
RR's power by the hour.


This will not wor for RR, because some freight airlines use the plan around the clock and others only two times each night.

DHL, UPS and Fedex would be very happy to get subsidized engines, and pay only a few hours a day. The perfect short-haul widebody freighter for them.


That’s not how the plan works. It’s more like the very old now cell plans where the per minute rate was astronomical for 500 minutes a month, and very reasonable comparatively for 5,000. RR isn’t dumb, but their plans have never really fit the broad freighter market.


My original comment was:
The A350F would work well in fleets already flying the A350 due to the commonality for maintenance and pilot pools. For primarily freighter airlines adding the A350F means a totally new system - pilots, vendors, engine manufacturer's, RR's power by the hour, maintenance, a big amount of change like WN ordering the A220.


Right now, the freighter market seems to be GE territory with the new build 748F, 767 and 777F freighters being GE's. The new 77WP2F is also GE. Sure, there are lots of freighters with RR's but most predate any Power by the Hour programs. Plenty of PW's also. In the narrow bodies, it seems that CFM is the preferred engine for conversions. It is a brave firm that takes on the increased risk with adding both an engine model vendor to the program. New spare parts, new MRO selections, training, etc.

The broad freighter market has many 'hub' airports that are not big passenger hubs. Currently Boeing's / GE's dominance in the freighter market means a lot of these freight 'hubs' have a very light RR service presence comparatively and Airbus support for the still substantial A300 fleet. I concur that the freighter market likes the status quo.

I feel the most promising freighter for Airbus is the A321 with a coordinated new build NEO as well as CEO conversions. CFM engines, feed stock for conversions being available at reasonable cost, and a best in class performance. Can't do everything a 757 does, but more economical when it can with nearly all missions covered.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:20 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
JoergAtADN wrote:

This will not wor for RR, because some freight airlines use the plan around the clock and others only two times each night.

DHL, UPS and Fedex would be very happy to get subsidized engines, and pay only a few hours a day. The perfect short-haul widebody freighter for them.


That’s not how the plan works. It’s more like the very old now cell plans where the per minute rate was astronomical for 500 minutes a month, and very reasonable comparatively for 5,000. RR isn’t dumb, but their plans have never really fit the broad freighter market.


My original comment was:
The A350F would work well in fleets already flying the A350 due to the commonality for maintenance and pilot pools. For primarily freighter airlines adding the A350F means a totally new system - pilots, vendors, engine manufacturer's, RR's power by the hour, maintenance, a big amount of change like WN ordering the A220.


Right now, the freighter market seems to be GE territory with the new build 748F, 767 and 777F freighters being GE's. The new 77WP2F is also GE. Sure, there are lots of freighters with RR's but most predate any Power by the Hour programs. Plenty of PW's also. In the narrow bodies, it seems that CFM is the preferred engine for conversions. It is a brave firm that takes on the increased risk with adding both an engine model vendor to the program. New spare parts, new MRO selections, training, etc.

The broad freighter market has many 'hub' airports that are not big passenger hubs. Currently Boeing's / GE's dominance in the freighter market means a lot of these freight 'hubs' have a very light RR service presence comparatively and Airbus support for the still substantial A300 fleet. I concur that the freighter market likes the status quo.

I feel the most promising freighter for Airbus is the A321 with a coordinated new build NEO as well as CEO conversions. CFM engines, feed stock for conversions being available at reasonable cost, and a best in class performance. Can't do everything a 757 does, but more economical when it can with nearly all missions covered.


I think the engine choice issue is grossly oversimplified. Narrowbody aircraft have Pratt, CFM, RR and the A321F program has V2500 series. These are all in such widespread service worldwide that parts and service won’t be an issue for decades to come.

On the WB side, RR is in service on the 742, 744 and A330 freighter fleet. I’m not counting the A346 paxcargo fleet in there, but the freight market for them is not inconsequential. An A350F would certainly help at that, but the GE dominance won’t change overnight.
 
texl1649
Posts: 1895
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:16 am

Spacepope wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
texl1649 wrote:

That’s not how the plan works. It’s more like the very old now cell plans where the per minute rate was astronomical for 500 minutes a month, and very reasonable comparatively for 5,000. RR isn’t dumb, but their plans have never really fit the broad freighter market.


My original comment was:
The A350F would work well in fleets already flying the A350 due to the commonality for maintenance and pilot pools. For primarily freighter airlines adding the A350F means a totally new system - pilots, vendors, engine manufacturer's, RR's power by the hour, maintenance, a big amount of change like WN ordering the A220.


Right now, the freighter market seems to be GE territory with the new build 748F, 767 and 777F freighters being GE's. The new 77WP2F is also GE. Sure, there are lots of freighters with RR's but most predate any Power by the Hour programs. Plenty of PW's also. In the narrow bodies, it seems that CFM is the preferred engine for conversions. It is a brave firm that takes on the increased risk with adding both an engine model vendor to the program. New spare parts, new MRO selections, training, etc.

The broad freighter market has many 'hub' airports that are not big passenger hubs. Currently Boeing's / GE's dominance in the freighter market means a lot of these freight 'hubs' have a very light RR service presence comparatively and Airbus support for the still substantial A300 fleet. I concur that the freighter market likes the status quo.

I feel the most promising freighter for Airbus is the A321 with a coordinated new build NEO as well as CEO conversions. CFM engines, feed stock for conversions being available at reasonable cost, and a best in class performance. Can't do everything a 757 does, but more economical when it can with nearly all missions covered.


I think the engine choice issue is grossly oversimplified. Narrowbody aircraft have Pratt, CFM, RR and the A321F program has V2500 series. These are all in such widespread service worldwide that parts and service won’t be an issue for decades to come.

On the WB side, RR is in service on the 742, 744 and A330 freighter fleet. I’m not counting the A346 paxcargo fleet in there, but the freight market for them is not inconsequential. An A350F would certainly help at that, but the GE dominance won’t change overnight.


What’s missing in the analyses I think is that (a) the 742, 744, 767F, 748F and 77F are all going away (or have already), and that (b) if RR offers cargo airlines a low utilization price/contract it will…impact what they have to offer other carriers, including some going through downturns. It’s a typical ‘oversimplification’ imho of the commercial realities for a major vendor to ‘tweak’ a product price point where it could impact other significant contractual commitments. To boot, it’s also true that RR has been…under a lot of pressure from many of their biggest customers for the past 5 years.

The RR cargo market share is, and has been, functionally negligible for many reasons, in short.

Further, who would do maintenance on a large FX/UPS order? It would be a new supplier for them, I presume. It is all quite inter-related.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:24 am

texl1649 wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:

Further, who would do maintenance on a large FX/UPS order? It would be a new supplier for them, I presume. It is all quite inter-related.


Both of them already have the RB211 in their fleets. Adding another RR product isn’t the issue here, not as much as redesigning all of their hubs to accommodate the wide wingspan of the A350F
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:42 am

Opus99 wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-13/airbus-freighter-plans-gather-pace-as-ups-dhl-eye-new-planes
(....) Air France-KLM is looking at how to take advantage of a strong cargo market, potentially with an additional plane."

I assume the author means an additional aircraft type to their cargo fleet. If true, then it would be quite a shock, AF/KL looking to invest in their dedicated cargo fleet. AF cargo has a couple of 77F's, KL cargo has 3 744ERF (GE) and an oddball ex MP 744BCF (PW). Would really make sense to merge both operations into one, with just one type of aircraft. Lots of politics involved unfortunately though, and IMO it would be unwise to invest before both operations are synergized. Not sure an expensive new A350F would be the best solution, 777-300ERSF (in addition to the existing 77fF) would make more sense IMO.
 
morrisond
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:30 am

texl1649 wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:

My original comment was:


Right now, the freighter market seems to be GE territory with the new build 748F, 767 and 777F freighters being GE's. The new 77WP2F is also GE. Sure, there are lots of freighters with RR's but most predate any Power by the Hour programs. Plenty of PW's also. In the narrow bodies, it seems that CFM is the preferred engine for conversions. It is a brave firm that takes on the increased risk with adding both an engine model vendor to the program. New spare parts, new MRO selections, training, etc.

The broad freighter market has many 'hub' airports that are not big passenger hubs. Currently Boeing's / GE's dominance in the freighter market means a lot of these freight 'hubs' have a very light RR service presence comparatively and Airbus support for the still substantial A300 fleet. I concur that the freighter market likes the status quo.

I feel the most promising freighter for Airbus is the A321 with a coordinated new build NEO as well as CEO conversions. CFM engines, feed stock for conversions being available at reasonable cost, and a best in class performance. Can't do everything a 757 does, but more economical when it can with nearly all missions covered.


I think the engine choice issue is grossly oversimplified. Narrowbody aircraft have Pratt, CFM, RR and the A321F program has V2500 series. These are all in such widespread service worldwide that parts and service won’t be an issue for decades to come.

On the WB side, RR is in service on the 742, 744 and A330 freighter fleet. I’m not counting the A346 paxcargo fleet in there, but the freight market for them is not inconsequential. An A350F would certainly help at that, but the GE dominance won’t change overnight.


What’s missing in the analyses I think is that (a) the 742, 744, 767F, 748F and 77F are all going away (or have already), and that (b) if RR offers cargo airlines a low utilization price/contract it will…impact what they have to offer other carriers, including some going through downturns. It’s a typical ‘oversimplification’ imho of the commercial realities for a major vendor to ‘tweak’ a product price point where it could impact other significant contractual commitments. To boot, it’s also true that RR has been…under a lot of pressure from many of their biggest customers for the past 5 years.

The RR cargo market share is, and has been, functionally negligible for many reasons, in short.

Further, who would do maintenance on a large FX/UPS order? It would be a new supplier for them, I presume. It is all quite inter-related.


767F, 777F and 748F going away? Or going out of production? 767F and 777F should still be active on the production lines for another 7 years and quite a few have been built in the last decade - over 200 777F with at least another 50 to come, about 100 767F plus another 50 to come and about 108 748F have been delivered in the last decade as well - that is over 500 dedicated Freighters that are babies in terms of the average age of a freighter.

It will be a long time before an A350F at 10 per year will make a big dent in that market.
 
JonesNL
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:47 am

frigatebird wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-13/airbus-freighter-plans-gather-pace-as-ups-dhl-eye-new-planes
(....) Air France-KLM is looking at how to take advantage of a strong cargo market, potentially with an additional plane."

I assume the author means an additional aircraft type to their cargo fleet. If true, then it would be quite a shock, AF/KL looking to invest in their dedicated cargo fleet. AF cargo has a couple of 77F's, KL cargo has 3 744ERF (GE) and an oddball ex MP 744BCF (PW). Would really make sense to merge both operations into one, with just one type of aircraft. Lots of politics involved unfortunately though, and IMO it would be unwise to invest before both operations are synergized. Not sure an expensive new A350F would be the best solution, 777-300ERSF (in addition to the existing 77fF) would make more sense IMO.

Well, an 350f would benefit from paying a lot less for landing feest in AMS and CDG...
 
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flee
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:00 pm

morrisond wrote:
It will be a long time before an A350F at 10 per year will make a big dent in that market.

Airbus has a planned ramp up of the A350 line to at least 10 per month (110 p.a.). I think they should be able to boost A350F production if there is sufficient demand for it.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:53 pm

Spacepope wrote:
On the WB side, RR is in service on the 742, 744 and A330 freighter fleet. I’m not counting the A346 paxcargo fleet in there, but the freight market for them is not inconsequential. An A350F would certainly help at that, but the GE dominance won’t change overnight.

texl1649 wrote:
The RR cargo market share is, and has been, functionally negligible for many reasons, in short.

I love it, we find ourselves poised in the gap between not inconsequential and functionally negligible!

flee wrote:
morrisond wrote:
It will be a long time before an A350F at 10 per year will make a big dent in that market.

Airbus has a planned ramp up of the A350 line to at least 10 per month (110 p.a.). I think they should be able to boost A350F production if there is sufficient demand for it.

They also had plans for A380 at 48 p.a., which shows plans don't always come true.
 
texl1649
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:13 pm

If we look at new orders for in production types (moving forward, beyond ICAO rules), or the existing dedicated WB cargo fleet, both, the RR market share is yes somewhere between non-existent, negligible and inconsequential. I’m not real sure why, but I am certain it has to do with the RR (de facto) focus on Airbus and their power by the hour support structure.

I’m sure Airbus can ramp up A350 production if they wish (particularly as the A330NEO seems to be at risk anyway), and it makes sense to work on this segment. Will it work for cargo airlines though? FX has operated a lot of RR 757’s. Where were/are they serviced, and do the same shops handle Trent XWB engines? I don’t know.
 
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keesje
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:39 pm

It seems the public has become less understanding, forgiving towards aviation environmental impact. Airbus might be getting ready to provide new noise / emission compliant 25t, 60t and 90t+ freighters from 2027. I think A321NEO and A330NEO freighter are a question of when if new regulations are implemented.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:57 pm

It seems one can't know what the state of play will be in 2028, and predictions as usual fall on partisan lines.
 
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AECM
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:49 pm

keesje wrote:
It seems the public has become less understanding, forgiving towards aviation environmental impact. Airbus might be getting ready to provide new noise / emission compliant 25t, 60t and 90t+ freighters from 2027. I think A321NEO and A330NEO freighter are a question of when if new regulations are implemented.


This is the main point for me, Airbus currently has the base frame aircraft that are compliant with the noise / emissions and although Airbus it not currently the main player in this market segment it is in a much better position to cover a broad range of the cargo world.
 
morrisond
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:47 pm

AECM wrote:
keesje wrote:
It seems the public has become less understanding, forgiving towards aviation environmental impact. Airbus might be getting ready to provide new noise / emission compliant 25t, 60t and 90t+ freighters from 2027. I think A321NEO and A330NEO freighter are a question of when if new regulations are implemented.


This is the main point for me, Airbus currently has the base frame aircraft that are compliant with the noise / emissions and although Airbus it not currently the main player in this market segment it is in a much better position to cover a broad range of the cargo world.


Because Boeing can't make an 70ishT 788F or 115+T 778F? Or some sort of MAX Freighter?

Airbus has the ability to cover a very broad range - but a 95T A350F with low density is really missing something on the high end.

I don't know how you can say Airbus is in a better position.

Airbus could improve the abilities of the A350 - but that would necessitate investments to increase MTOW and Thrust and possibly a new engine (GE9X) - which I actually hope they do. But then they will be hampered with a comparatively small wing.
 
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AECM
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:57 pm

morrisond wrote:

I don't know how you can say Airbus is in a better position..


At this moment Airbus has the A321NEO / A330NEO / A350 that meet the emission and noise requirements. Both the A321 and the A330 have already CEO cargo versions and the A350 freighter is under development. Boeing at this moment has the B737MAX and the B787 compliant with emission and noise requirements and the B77X has the EIS delayed.

At this moment in time Airbus seems to be in a better position regarding availability vs development costs, just my two cents...
 
Daysleeper
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:09 pm

AECM wrote:
keesje wrote:
It seems the public has become less understanding, forgiving towards aviation environmental impact. Airbus might be getting ready to provide new noise / emission compliant 25t, 60t and 90t+ freighters from 2027. I think A321NEO and A330NEO freighter are a question of when if new regulations are implemented.


This is the main point for me, Airbus currently has the base frame aircraft that are compliant with the noise / emissions and although Airbus it not currently the main player in this market segment it is in a much better position to cover a broad range of the cargo world.


Absolutely, there is undoubtedly going to be a need for a new generation of freighter aircraft by the end of the decade and Airbus would be negligent ignoring it. I also don’t see what they have to lose by offering the A350F; With 200+ orders for the 777F in the last decade there is obviously going to be a market for a more efficient and regulation compliant version.
 
BHRN
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:11 pm

JoergAtADN wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
RR's power by the hour.


This will not wor for RR, because some freight airlines use the plan around the clock and others only two times each night.

DHL, UPS and Fedex would be very happy to get subsidized engines, and pay only a few hours a day. The perfect short-haul widebody freighter for them.


You might be right for their narrow body fleets but definitely not in the case for their long haul fleets. The likes of FedEx schedule their long haul fleet like there is no tomorrow.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:30 pm

trex8 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
trex8 wrote:
Hmm, lets see
SQ for half dozen
CI for up to two dozen
OZ/KE for up to a dozen
CX for some number
Any of the main 3 Chinese carriers for some number
thats just in the Far East

LH for some number

they don't even need QR

getting 50 orders from pax + freight operators who are installed base combination carriers is not going to be that difficult
they promise @100t @5000nm 20%+ less fuel burn than a 777F, all the above will be lining up

See how you’re just calling dozens everywhere like it’s a yard sale. These airlines have balance sheets to repair with no imminent need for freighters. Airbus has better luck with actual cargo operators.

I’m interested to see how Airbus will price these aircraft (if we ever will) they themselves admit the costing of the 350 gives the jet an uncompetitive edge


No imminent need of freighters? I guess it depends what imminent is, what happens after the pandemic etc. Quick look at Planespotters shows:

SQ had 7 744Fs till 3 years ago, maybe they wont be back in the freighter business, maybe they will
CI CEO just this year says they will have 18 744Fs and 6 777Fs when the last of the new ordered 777Fs are delivered in 2 years. Oldest 747Fs are 21 years old, newest 14 years. You cannot keep a 26 year old plane on the ROC register anymore (at least pax ones, dunno if the rule applies to cargo, but CI with its checkered safety history is not likely to keep those for 3 decades+. those are all ripe for replacement by end this decade and the 777fs potentally early/mid next decade if kept only a dozen years
OZ has 11 744F/BDSFs, maybe KE will sell them all off, they are all 20-30 years old, they are ripe for replacement if the new KE management wants to keep that number around in the new "KE"
CX has many new 747-8Fs, they still have 6 744Fs which are also relatively new but could be replaced by end of decade, of course CX may be a shadow of its former self by then to for all sorts of reasons, many beyond their control
CA has 3 744Fs ripe this decade for replacement (16-26 years old), their 777Fs are relatively new , oldest 8 years , but by end decade/early next may need replacing and any for expansion
CZ has 2 744F s which will need replacing- 19 years old, 14 777Fs , 6 of which are 10 years old already- see above re CA
CK (MU) has 2 744Fs 14-15 years old, 8 777Fs, 6 of which are 10-11 years old already- see above re CA

I could see VN getting into freighters eventually as well.

All of the above may get out of the freighter business, but given how the world economy is and how much stuff they export from "greater China" and Korea, I wouldn't bet a lot of money on it and a lot more money on someone, be it A or B, supplying them with new freighters in the next decade and half.


A few comments here:
SQ still has 7 747s
CZ is retiring their 2 747s
 
morrisond
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:32 pm

AECM wrote:
morrisond wrote:

I don't know how you can say Airbus is in a better position..


At this moment Airbus has the A321NEO / A330NEO / A350 that meet the emission and noise requirements. Both the A321 and the A330 have already CEO cargo versions and the A350 freighter is under development. Boeing at this moment has the B737MAX and the B787 compliant with emission and noise requirements and the B77X has the EIS delayed.

At this moment in time Airbus seems to be in a better position regarding availability vs development costs, just my two cents...


Because Boeing's production lines are full?

Unless Airbus invests a ton of money in A350F to improve its abilities I don't see it selling that much at all. It will have to compete with cheap end of line 777F and Boeing 777ERSF.

A330 NEO-F is not launched and may never see the light of day as 330 goes the way of the DODO.

Cargo doors exist (Boeing 737-800BCF) that can be easily be adapted to the MAX.

Why would Airbus have a development cost advantage on Freighters?
 
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AECM
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:48 pm

morrisond wrote:
AECM wrote:
morrisond wrote:

I don't know how you can say Airbus is in a better position..


At this moment Airbus has the A321NEO / A330NEO / A350 that meet the emission and noise requirements. Both the A321 and the A330 have already CEO cargo versions and the A350 freighter is under development. Boeing at this moment has the B737MAX and the B787 compliant with emission and noise requirements and the B77X has the EIS delayed.

At this moment in time Airbus seems to be in a better position regarding availability vs development costs, just my two cents...


Because Boeing's production lines are full?

Unless Airbus invests a ton of money in A350F to improve its abilities I don't see it selling that much at all. It will have to compete with cheap end of line 777F and Boeing 777ERSF.

A330 NEO-F is not launched and may never see the light of day as 330 goes the way of the DODO.

Cargo doors exist (Boeing 737-800BCF) that can be easily be adapted to the MAX.

Why would Airbus have a development cost advantage on Freighters?
I would say that certifying a possible A321NEO and A330NEO based on the correspondente CEO versions + the development of the A350F will cost less than the overall cost of Boeing B77X certification + cargo version + a possible B787F.

Regarding the possible capabilities of the A350F we need to wait and see what Airbus is working on.
 
morrisond
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:04 pm

AECM wrote:
morrisond wrote:
AECM wrote:

At this moment Airbus has the A321NEO / A330NEO / A350 that meet the emission and noise requirements. Both the A321 and the A330 have already CEO cargo versions and the A350 freighter is under development. Boeing at this moment has the B737MAX and the B787 compliant with emission and noise requirements and the B77X has the EIS delayed.

At this moment in time Airbus seems to be in a better position regarding availability vs development costs, just my two cents...


Because Boeing's production lines are full?

Unless Airbus invests a ton of money in A350F to improve its abilities I don't see it selling that much at all. It will have to compete with cheap end of line 777F and Boeing 777ERSF.

A330 NEO-F is not launched and may never see the light of day as 330 goes the way of the DODO.

Cargo doors exist (Boeing 737-800BCF) that can be easily be adapted to the MAX.

Why would Airbus have a development cost advantage on Freighters?
I would say that certifying a possible A321NEO and A330NEO based on the correspondente CEO versions + the development of the A350F will cost less than the overall cost of Boeing B77X certification + cargo version + a possible B787F.

Regarding the possible capabilities of the A350F we need to wait and see what Airbus is working on.


Yes - we will see what they come up with - Hopefully this time they put the effort into the A350F in order to dominate the market segment - which they could - but fuel economy is usually not the big thing in frieght.

Boeing has already written off 777X development costs and Boeing could always just re-engine the 767.
 
inkjet7
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:47 pm

frigatebird wrote:
Not sure an expensive new A350F would be the best solution, 777-300ERSF (in addition to the existing 77fF) would make more sense IMO.


I agree. Both AF and KL operate triple sevens (AF/KL is the second largest operator of the type) while only AF operates the A350. Some converted planes would definitely make the purchase or lease cost more achievable.
 
flipdewaf
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Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:54 pm

morrisond wrote:
AECM wrote:
keesje wrote:
It seems the public has become less understanding, forgiving towards aviation environmental impact. Airbus might be getting ready to provide new noise / emission compliant 25t, 60t and 90t+ freighters from 2027. I think A321NEO and A330NEO freighter are a question of when if new regulations are implemented.


This is the main point for me, Airbus currently has the base frame aircraft that are compliant with the noise / emissions and although Airbus it not currently the main player in this market segment it is in a much better position to cover a broad range of the cargo world.


Because Boeing can't make an 70ishT 788F or 115+T 778F? Or some sort of MAX Freighter?

Airbus has the ability to cover a very broad range - but a 95T A350F with low density is really missing something on the high end.

I don't know how you can say Airbus is in a better position.

Airbus could improve the abilities of the A350 - but that would necessitate investments to increase MTOW and Thrust and possibly a new engine (GE9X) - which I actually hope they do. But then they will be hampered with a comparatively small wing.

It’s worth noting that the 778F needs an uprated MTOW to out payload range a 319t A350. A 323t A350F has equal range at payload to a 360t 778F.

With a 117t payload and 351t MTOW the 778F isn’t TATL capable, at 360t it’s capable of summer TATL.

The airbus isn’t the only one that needs an upgrade.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Last edited by flipdewaf on Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:57 pm

morrisond wrote:
AECM wrote:
morrisond wrote:

Because Boeing's production lines are full?

Unless Airbus invests a ton of money in A350F to improve its abilities I don't see it selling that much at all. It will have to compete with cheap end of line 777F and Boeing 777ERSF.

A330 NEO-F is not launched and may never see the light of day as 330 goes the way of the DODO.

Cargo doors exist (Boeing 737-800BCF) that can be easily be adapted to the MAX.

Why would Airbus have a development cost advantage on Freighters?
I would say that certifying a possible A321NEO and A330NEO based on the correspondente CEO versions + the development of the A350F will cost less than the overall cost of Boeing B77X certification + cargo version + a possible B787F.

Regarding the possible capabilities of the A350F we need to wait and see what Airbus is working on.


Yes - we will see what they come up with - Hopefully this time they put the effort into the A350F in order to dominate the market segment - which they could - but fuel economy is usually not the big thing in frieght.

Boeing has already written off 777X development costs and Boeing could always just re-engine the 767.


The A350F's capabilities are in the same range of many of the other freighter choices 748F, 744F, 77xF, 77F, <A350F>, 77WP2F, and MD-11. That means it must shine bright to get a decent market share competing between a lot of existing frames as well as future orders for the 77xF. Personally, I feel the 77W P2F will be the market leader here, to the detriment of new build 777 freighters.

New engines on the 764 creates a new capability in what is now a gap with only the MD-11 of comparable size. The market for 763 freighters is likely getting saturated between the existing fleet and potential conversions. I feel the 764 freighter is the most promising in terms of capabilities.
 
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AECM
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:07 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
morrisond wrote:
AECM wrote:
I would say that certifying a possible A321NEO and A330NEO based on the correspondente CEO versions + the development of the A350F will cost less than the overall cost of Boeing B77X certification + cargo version + a possible B787F.

Regarding the possible capabilities of the A350F we need to wait and see what Airbus is working on.


Yes - we will see what they come up with - Hopefully this time they put the effort into the A350F in order to dominate the market segment - which they could - but fuel economy is usually not the big thing in frieght.

Boeing has already written off 777X development costs and Boeing could always just re-engine the 767.


The A350F's capabilities are in the same range of many of the other freighter choices 748F, 744F, 77xF, 77F, <A350F>, 77WP2F, and MD-11. That means it must shine bright to get a decent market share competing between a lot of existing frames as well as future orders for the 77xF. Personally, I feel the 77W P2F will be the market leader here, to the detriment of new build 777 freighters.

New engines on the 764 creates a new capability in what is now a gap with only the MD-11 of comparable size. The market for 763 freighters is likely getting saturated between the existing fleet and potential conversions. I feel the 764 freighter is the most promising in terms of capabilities.


I also think that if Boeing goes for a re-engine B767 it will be the 400 version but would a Genx or RR1000/7000 version work on the current B764 wing? Because if the wing changes and the span gets increase further then the ramp space advantage of the B767 familly falls in line with B787 and A330NEO.
 
morrisond
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:13 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
morrisond wrote:
AECM wrote:

This is the main point for me, Airbus currently has the base frame aircraft that are compliant with the noise / emissions and although Airbus it not currently the main player in this market segment it is in a much better position to cover a broad range of the cargo world.


Because Boeing can't make an 70ishT 788F or 115+T 778F? Or some sort of MAX Freighter?

Airbus has the ability to cover a very broad range - but a 95T A350F with low density is really missing something on the high end.

I don't know how you can say Airbus is in a better position.

Airbus could improve the abilities of the A350 - but that would necessitate investments to increase MTOW and Thrust and possibly a new engine (GE9X) - which I actually hope they do. But then they will be hampered with a comparatively small wing.

It’s worth noting that the 778F needs an uprated MTOW to out payload range a 319t A350. A 323t A350F has equal range at payload to a 360t 778F.

With a 117t payload and 351t MTOW the 778F isn’t TATL capable, at 360t it’s capable of summer TATL.

The airbus isn’t the only one that needs an upgrade.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


No - the Airbus isn't the only one that needs an upgrade - as you an I have discussed the 778F really will need the 360T if it has any hope. Otherwise just re-engine the 77F.

However at least the 778F might be able to lift 117T. As your numbers show the A350F might top out at 95T Trans- Channel - as in UK to France.
 
morrisond
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:24 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
morrisond wrote:
AECM wrote:
I would say that certifying a possible A321NEO and A330NEO based on the correspondente CEO versions + the development of the A350F will cost less than the overall cost of Boeing B77X certification + cargo version + a possible B787F.

Regarding the possible capabilities of the A350F we need to wait and see what Airbus is working on.


Yes - we will see what they come up with - Hopefully this time they put the effort into the A350F in order to dominate the market segment - which they could - but fuel economy is usually not the big thing in frieght.

Boeing has already written off 777X development costs and Boeing could always just re-engine the 767.


The A350F's capabilities are in the same range of many of the other freighter choices 748F, 744F, 77xF, 77F, <A350F>, 77WP2F, and MD-11. That means it must shine bright to get a decent market share competing between a lot of existing frames as well as future orders for the 77xF. Personally, I feel the 77W P2F will be the market leader here, to the detriment of new build 777 freighters.

New engines on the 764 creates a new capability in what is now a gap with only the MD-11 of comparable size. The market for 763 freighters is likely getting saturated between the existing fleet and potential conversions. I feel the 764 freighter is the most promising in terms of capabilities.


I wouldn't disagree with this - however I think where the A350F could really face competition (if they stick to 95T low density configuration) from new builds could be something based on the 787 which will come. If single pilot operations are a possibility in the future the 767 has no hope of being adapted. Boeing may be a lot wiser to invest in 787. At its line rates Boeing could price it very competitively.

With the 787-10 structure and whatever they have to do to take it to 260T MTOW as rumoured - it could be able to lift close to 80T at 788 lengths. At 789 lengths (same as 77F) more like 70T and not far from the density of an A350F - but at a much lower cost.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:41 pm

morrisond wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
morrisond wrote:

Because Boeing can't make an 70ishT 788F or 115+T 778F? Or some sort of MAX Freighter?

Airbus has the ability to cover a very broad range - but a 95T A350F with low density is really missing something on the high end.

I don't know how you can say Airbus is in a better position.

Airbus could improve the abilities of the A350 - but that would necessitate investments to increase MTOW and Thrust and possibly a new engine (GE9X) - which I actually hope they do. But then they will be hampered with a comparatively small wing.

It’s worth noting that the 778F needs an uprated MTOW to out payload range a 319t A350. A 323t A350F has equal range at payload to a 360t 778F.

With a 117t payload and 351t MTOW the 778F isn’t TATL capable, at 360t it’s capable of summer TATL.

The airbus isn’t the only one that needs an upgrade.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


No - the Airbus isn't the only one that needs an upgrade - as you an I have discussed the 778F really will need the 360T if it has any hope. Otherwise just re-engine the 77F.

However at least the 778F might be able to lift 117T. As your numbers show the A350F might top out at 95T Trans- Channel - as in UK to France.

Yep, 95t was just my guess, leeham had it as 107? Was it leeham where we get the 117t figure for the 778f from? As far as I can tell, the A350f is the better choice right up to its limit of payload (what ever that is. (cheaper, lighter, lower fuel burn) if you absolutely need the higher payload capability then the 778F is the one.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:44 pm

flee wrote:
morrisond wrote:
It will be a long time before an A350F at 10 per year will make a big dent in that market.

Airbus has a planned ramp up of the A350 line to at least 10 per month (110 p.a.). I think they should be able to boost A350F production if there is sufficient demand for it.


While I'm a fan of the A350 (and likewise 787)... 10 a month may be over ambitious.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:49 pm

morrisond wrote:
With the 787-10 structure and whatever they have to do to take it to 260T MTOW as rumoured - it could be able to lift close to 80T at 788 lengths. At 789 lengths (same as 77F) more like 70T and not far from the density of an A350F - but at a much lower cost.


The 78J and A359 are around the same size, the 78J on list prices is around 5% more expensive than a A359.
 
Opus99
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:26 pm

zeke wrote:
morrisond wrote:
With the 787-10 structure and whatever they have to do to take it to 260T MTOW as rumoured - it could be able to lift close to 80T at 788 lengths. At 789 lengths (same as 77F) more like 70T and not far from the density of an A350F - but at a much lower cost.


The 78J and A359 are around the same size, the 78J on list prices is around 5% more expensive than a A359.

From a volume perspective?
 
morrisond
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:03 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
morrisond wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
It’s worth noting that the 778F needs an uprated MTOW to out payload range a 319t A350. A 323t A350F has equal range at payload to a 360t 778F.

With a 117t payload and 351t MTOW the 778F isn’t TATL capable, at 360t it’s capable of summer TATL.

The airbus isn’t the only one that needs an upgrade.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


No - the Airbus isn't the only one that needs an upgrade - as you an I have discussed the 778F really will need the 360T if it has any hope. Otherwise just re-engine the 77F.

However at least the 778F might be able to lift 117T. As your numbers show the A350F might top out at 95T Trans- Channel - as in UK to France.

Yep, 95t was just my guess, leeham had it as 107? Was it leeham where we get the 117t figure for the 778f from? As far as I can tell, the A350f is the better choice right up to its limit of payload (what ever that is. (cheaper, lighter, lower fuel burn) if you absolutely need the higher payload capability then the 778F is the one.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I think it was Reuters - but I think they were assuming shorter than your A351 length which is maybe how they would get the 107T from it.
 
morrisond
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:06 pm

zeke wrote:
morrisond wrote:
With the 787-10 structure and whatever they have to do to take it to 260T MTOW as rumoured - it could be able to lift close to 80T at 788 lengths. At 789 lengths (same as 77F) more like 70T and not far from the density of an A350F - but at a much lower cost.


The 78J and A359 are around the same size, the 78J on list prices is around 5% more expensive than a A359.


Yes - but as Airbus no longer publishes list prices - hard to know. Hard to find data - but based on hints A350 transaction prices seem to be a lot higher.

Otherwise why is not selling 2:1 over 787 as it is a spectacular performer.
 
Daysleeper
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:33 am

morrisond wrote:
Because Boeing's production lines are full?

Unless Airbus invests a ton of money in A350F to improve its abilities I don't see it selling that much at all. It will have to compete with cheap end of line 777F and Boeing 777ERSF.

A330 NEO-F is not launched and may never see the light of day as 330 goes the way of the DODO.

Cargo doors exist (Boeing 737-800BCF) that can be easily be adapted to the MAX.

Why would Airbus have a development cost advantage on Freighters?


It’s not so much an advantage as it is an opportunity. As I posted a few pages ago the A350 became profitable to produce back in 2019 and with around 500 still to be delivered it’s going to make Airbus a lot of money with or without a freighter version. We also know a freighter variant was planned from the outset, so it’s safe to assume that it is going to require minimal effort; expense and time to put it into production.

There are also a few other factors which I believe only re-enforce what a great opportunity this is for Airbus, consider;

From the 200+ orders for the 777F over the last decade we know that there is going to be a demand for a modern, regulation compliant replacement and If they are able to get a 2025 EIS it's possible they would have the segment all to themselves for a good few years given the 777X’s delays.

The A350F also has the potential to pave the way for a future A330NEO/F to be a regulation compliant replacement for the 767, considering that the NEO is already flying and the 330F already exists this should not be an expensive or complicated task for Airbus. The common type rating could also help sell either type to a current operator of either.

Finally, it’s also worth mentioning its potential to really kick Boeing when it's down, it’s not pleasant a pleasant thought as an enthusiast but it also cannot be ignored. Irrespective of written off costs the 77X is in a precarious position at present with delays and the inevitable late payments Sir Tim will be demanding not to cancel 50% of its order book Boeing really need a successful freighter variant to make the whole project worthwhile. Airbus on the other hand don’t, the freighter is a low cost, low risk endeavour, but it has the potential to not only open up an entirely new market segment but also make it very difficult for the competition. Even if they only sell enough to break even, it will be a win for them.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:14 am

The real question will be who can produce the freighter profitable. This depends on the profitability of the actual passenger aircraft it is based on. Introducing a new subtype to a production line that is running a deficit will increase the cost of said line while not pushing profitability, rather doing the opposite and reducing profitability (or better increasing the losses) of the passenger variant further.

A stand alone freighter production (aka 767) can make a hefty profit as the production is slim, but producing 359/35K/35F at a rate of 5 on the same line could very well become deeply red. Same would be for 779/77xF at a rate of 2-3 per month. So who ever gets the volume on the base model high enough to be able to increase complexity without increasing production cost will have the winner.

Boeing is facing the most uphill battle here as the 77X line is very weak at the moment and without further sales it will be hard to push production higher to support a freighter because it will be not possible to sell it at a loss in the international market (dumping) and so an expensive production line due to low volumes will price the freighter out of the market.
 
Noshow
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:27 am

I see this whole A350 "launch" as a spoiler by Airbus to weaken the 777X business case at a time when the program is under pressure due to new delays. If there is competition the promising 777XF will not get the high pricing they might hope for. Visibly talking about it is enough for Airbus to spoil the 777XF for the moment.

NONE is launched yet. Still both program's freighter version might very well happen one day. This thread's headline is still wrong.

The strange thing is the claimed advertised fuselage length between the -900 and the -1000. This makes it sound like a phantasy because it would price any A350-950F out of the market. It would not be a cheap spin off anymore but a costly new type. This is why I consider this "launch" marketing ...
 
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:59 am

Airbus, having determined internally that a reasonable technical, industrial and business case may exist for an A350F, is now sounding out potential launch customers. Nothing less, nothing more. As already noted in this thread, an A350F was always seen as a possibility, one day. Its not about going after Boeing when they are struggling with various programs. It is about seeking to share a market that is thought to be big enough for two, with a competitive product at an industrially viable price that is acceptable in the marketplace. For sure, in so doing, seeking to deprive Boeing of the monopoly Freighter pricing that they have enjoyed for many many years. Straightforward commercial competition.

If and when a customer base emerges, it will be time for more informed, less speculative discussion
 
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:50 am

I have wondered myself, why 'lanch' an aircraft without a lanch customer. Just pure for advertisement, I do not think so. This is aimed at professionals, not at the general public. So floating an idea for them will not really work. Better just pick up a phone, or do one of those lunch meetings in Paris ;-), and ask them directly. So I am baffled what their intention actually is. I believe they will not float just any idea, so there must be a lot of homework done before this came to the public. And yet no launch customer.

We'll see what will happen, but given the problems with the 777X, a 777XF might be a long way out and might be not produced at all if the A350F is launched. But the timeframe might be limited for that and the window might be closing fast because Boeing has dealt with the 737MAX and can free up engineers to work on the 777X, including the proposed F variant.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts.
 
AngMoh
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:44 am

Dutchy wrote:
I have wondered myself, why 'lanch' an aircraft without a lanch customer. Just pure for advertisement, I do not think so. This is aimed at professionals, not at the general public. So floating an idea for them will not really work. Better just pick up a phone, or do one of those lunch meetings in Paris ;-), and ask them directly. So I am baffled what their intention actually is. I believe they will not float just any idea, so there must be a lot of homework done before this came to the public. And yet no launch customer.

We'll see what will happen, but given the problems with the 777X, a 777XF might be a long way out and might be not produced at all if the A350F is launched. But the timeframe might be limited for that and the window might be closing fast because Boeing has dealt with the 737MAX and can free up engineers to work on the 777X, including the proposed F variant.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts.


Airbus was very clear that it was an "authority to offer". That means configuration must be frozen, performance guarantees defined and costs and acceptable sales price ranges are defined. That means Airbus sales can go to an airline and create a deal and prepare a contract with costs, configuration and performance guarantees defined. It might be subject to a formal launch, but the go ahead for sales to start serious contract negotiations have been given. Every aircraft goes to the same steps, both Boeing and Airbus. Launch comes when the first contracts have been signed and there is a defined launch customer. Authority to offer is made public because it is stock market sensitive information and not just PR. It was not for the public nor professionals: it was for shareholders.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:09 am

AngMoh wrote:
Airbus was very clear that it was an "authority to offer". That means configuration must be frozen, performance guarantees defined and costs and acceptable sales price ranges are defined. That means Airbus sales can go to an airline and create a deal and prepare a contract with costs, configuration and performance guarantees defined. It might be subject to a formal launch, but the go ahead for sales to start serious contract negotiations have been given. Every aircraft goes to the same steps, both Boeing and Airbus. Launch comes when the first contracts have been signed and there is a defined launch customer. Authority to offer is made public because it is stock market sensitive information and not just PR. It was not for the public nor professionals: it was for shareholders.


Thanks for the input. How did it work with other launches? Let's say the A320NEO, was it first made public and then a launch customer with the official launch? In that respect can we conclude that Boeing is behind with the 777XF because they haven't made it official yet? Just curious about these details because it well make me understand just a bit better what is happening in the market. :D
 
Noshow
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:26 am

A launch is a formal announcement to start a program or a version development on a schedule not a pure headline like this. A launch means binding data and the readiness to sign orders. Most launches will have more than one customer under their belt when going public.
 
LX321
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:03 am

And yet the CEO stated that EIS will be in 2025. Is that not a launch?
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:17 am

Noshow wrote:
A launch is a formal announcement to start a program or a version development on a schedule not a pure headline like this. A launch means binding data and the readiness to sign orders. Most launches will have more than one customer under their belt when going public.


I wonder what language was being spoken when the word "launch" was used. Maybe a nuance or three got lost in translation?
 
RoyalBrunei757
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:27 am

Truth to be told, you don't really need a customer to launch/offer/fly whatever a product, didn't Airbus had some A300 built waiting for customer when they first rolled off the production line????
 
morrisond
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:35 am

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:
Truth to be told, you don't really need a customer to launch/offer/fly whatever a product, didn't Airbus had some A300 built waiting for customer when they first rolled off the production line????


That was a very different era when Airbus was basically a Government run entity and things like profit were not really a consideration. Kind of like the Chinese Aircraft industry these days.
 
morrisond
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:42 am

Noshow wrote:
I see this whole A350 "launch" as a spoiler by Airbus to weaken the 777X business case at a time when the program is under pressure due to new delays. If there is competition the promising 777XF will not get the high pricing they might hope for. Visibly talking about it is enough for Airbus to spoil the 777XF for the moment.

NONE is launched yet. Still both program's freighter version might very well happen one day. This thread's headline is still wrong.

The strange thing is the claimed advertised fuselage length between the -900 and the -1000. This makes it sound like a phantasy because it would price any A350-950F out of the market. It would not be a cheap spin off anymore but a costly new type. This is why I consider this "launch" marketing ...


Exactly. This will not be a cheap derivative.

When has someone built a custom length freighter that did not have a passenger equivalent?

A 777xF has always been baked into the program and I would assume the same for an 787F at some point. Those eventual versions would have been taken into consideration in the base designs, just like any manufacturer would.

The 777X will get past its issues and there is no reason an 777xF couldn't come by 2025/2026. However they don't really need it yet either. Even with higher fuel burn I'm sure Boeing will be able to price 777F keenly enough that 350F or 777xF won't garner many sales until customers have to buy them.

We can't forget Calhoun's comment either when he said that they may be able to produce the 777F past the new emissions target date. Boeing's big 77F customers may just be telling them that they would just prefer to keep taking 77F.
 
Noshow
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:08 pm

To be fair the Beluga XL is custom length.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:32 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I have wondered myself, why 'lanch' an aircraft without a lanch customer. Just pure for advertisement, I do not think so. This is aimed at professionals, not at the general public. So floating an idea for them will not really work. Better just pick up a phone, or do one of those lunch meetings in Paris ;-), and ask them directly. So I am baffled what their intention actually is. I believe they will not float just any idea, so there must be a lot of homework done before this came to the public. And yet no launch customer.

:checkmark:

You might want to read my earlier posts to this thread. I'd repeat some of my thoughts about the possibilities but they seem to generate some over-reactions. I'll just say I agree it is not the usual way things are done and the reason for doing it this way is debatable.

LX321 wrote:
And yet the CEO stated that EIS will be in 2025. Is that not a launch?

You can't have an entry in service without an airline, so unless Airbus announces it's starting its own airline or announces one ore more customers, it's not a launch.

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