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LX321
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:03 pm

What has noe been discussed here yet is that perhaps one of the main drivers for Airbus to launche the 350F is to break Boeing´s monopoly in the WB freighter market. The market does not like a monopoly and for Airbus this is a win-win situation.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:04 pm

zeke wrote:
Chipmunk1973 wrote:
Just a couple or few general questions about cargo aircraft.

I understand the concept of containers such as the LD3. But what about pallets used in cargo planes? Is there a standard for sizes used and what would be the more common sizes?

Lastly, how are pallets loaded (and unloaded). I’ve seen LD3s loaded by conveyor as the belly is moderately close to the ground. I’d imagine with the main deck being somewhat higher, something like a scissor lift would be used?

Thanks in advance.


PMC are the more common pallets, they are 96 inches x 125 inches. Usually get around 6 tonnes per pallet. They are loaded the same way as LD3s, a loader takes them from the ground equipment to the door height with a scissor lift mechanism, then power rollers on the loader normally roll them into the aircraft, and then power rollers in the cargo hold normally move them within the cargo hold.

https://www.cathaypacificcargo.com/en-u ... allet.aspx


777s and 747s use powered cargo loading systems on the main deck. I don’t believe Airbus has ever put a powered main deck cargo loading system on their commercial freighters. A321s, A330s and A300s require people to physically push the pallets into their positions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1m5XFXjsGg
 
Daysleeper
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:33 pm

LX321 wrote:
What has noe been discussed here yet is that perhaps one of the main drivers for Airbus to launche the 350F is to break Boeing´s monopoly in the WB freighter market. The market does not like a monopoly and for Airbus this is a win-win situation.


On the contrary, many have pointed out the opportunity Airbus has in developing a larger freighter at this time. With the 77F not able to be delivered post 2028 and the 74F winding up production, then there is going to be an obvious gap in the market for a new large freighter.

Historically we would expect a future 77X variant to fill this gap, however with the program suffering significant delays and cost over runs then I no longer see this as a certainty, especially if Airbus manage to get some orders and meet the 2025 EIS date they could potentially have the market to themselves for a good couple of years. And given that there is a limited market for such a large freighter that I suspect Boeing would need all to justify the expense of developing a new freighter then should Airbus get there first, they may not even bother at all.

Finally, when you take into consideration the success of the current A350 program and the fact it has been profitable to produce since 2019 then you really have to wonder what Airbus would have to lose by offering the A350F. As has been discussed many times a freighter variant was always planned and as a result developing and putting it into production should be a relatively cheap and easy endeavour for them but has the potential to both open up an entirely new market and severely hamper its competition by ending their freighter monopoly.

Like you said, the way I see it is Win Win..
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:50 pm

It seems to me to be a big ask for RR to take demonstrator level technology and do all the further development, testing, production scale-up and certification work to enhance a product it already has an exclusive position on for the next decade, when the company at a whole is suffering greatly from the after-effect of the T1000 blade cracking issues and the pandemic cutting its power-by-the-hour revenue significantly. Maybe they'll take the risk, maybe not, time will tell.

Maybe this will be a situation where RLI comes into its own if they pitch this as a new engine rather than an enhancement. Up to half the cash up front, repayable at commercial rates in incremental amounts much later as each engine leaves the factory. Not much chance anyone will complain if the UK government throws a bone to RR in a time of need. Financial community sees the government has skin in the game, makes it easier for them to decide to join in.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:28 pm

Too late to edit, and *total speculation* on my part, but maybe RLI is the reason why we had a bunch of PR around authority to develop yet no customer commitments: *perhaps* both Airbus and RR are working on RLI deals behind the scenes and don't want to commit to the program by signing contracts until they have secured it.
 
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Heavierthanair
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:07 pm

G'day

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

777s and 747s use powered cargo loading systems on the main deck. I don’t believe Airbus has ever put a powered main deck cargo loading system on their commercial freighters. A321s, A330s and A300s require people to physically push the pallets into their positions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1m5XFXjsGg


No idea under what rock you have been hiding. All cargo Airbuses always have had powered main- and lower deck cargo handling systems, that's not really rocket science. Even the A320 series has powered systems to load baggage cans - for those that elected the can option. No way you can move around all those containers, pallets, cans whatever manually, there may be exceptions for odd sized cargo, animal boxes exotic cars etc.

Cheers

Peter
 
VV
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:09 pm

Is the targeted EIS date in 2025 realistic?
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:49 pm

VV wrote:
Is the targeted EIS date in 2025 realistic?

Depends on how much work needs to be done and how much has already been done. I don’t think anyone who knows is at liberty to say.

If the long lead items do not need changing then I’d say yes. A one year flight test should be ample to determine weights and balance of a new length seeing the experience of the existing models.

Fred


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VV
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:04 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
VV wrote:
Is the targeted EIS date in 2025 realistic?

Depends on how much work needs to be done and how much has already been done. I don’t think anyone who knows is at liberty to say.

If the long lead items do not need changing then I’d say yes. A one year flight test should be ample to determine weights and balance of a new length seeing the experience of the existing models.
...



Why should it be "it depends"?

Isn't the targeted EIS date defined for whatever work is needed?

Are you insinuating something else?
 
flipdewaf
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Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:27 pm

VV wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
VV wrote:
Is the targeted EIS date in 2025 realistic?

Depends on how much work needs to be done and how much has already been done. I don’t think anyone who knows is at liberty to say.

If the long lead items do not need changing then I’d say yes. A one year flight test should be ample to determine weights and balance of a new length seeing the experience of the existing models.
...



Why should it be "it depends"?

Because it is a project like any other that has limitations and focus’s and dependencies that are all fluid.
VV wrote:

Isn't the targeted EIS date defined for whatever work is needed?

Kind of but not really. Basically, whether project sponsors like it or not (they normally do not like it) you can pick two of three of: cost(to deliver)
Time(to deliver)
Quality( agreed output)

If (normally when) something goes wrong you need to decide which of these gets hit, normally in aerospace Quality is paramount and overall resource limitations (specialisms) mean time takes the hit.
VV wrote:

Are you insinuating something else?

No, just normal project management stuff. I.e. it’s complicated so stuff is unknown.

Nothing “world famous” to steal for a blog that’s for sure.

Fred


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HPRamper
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:39 pm

Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

777s and 747s use powered cargo loading systems on the main deck. I don’t believe Airbus has ever put a powered main deck cargo loading system on their commercial freighters. A321s, A330s and A300s require people to physically push the pallets into their positions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1m5XFXjsGg


No idea under what rock you have been hiding. All cargo Airbuses always have had powered main- and lower deck cargo handling systems, that's not really rocket science. Even the A320 series has powered systems to load baggage cans - for those that elected the can option. No way you can move around all those containers, pallets, cans whatever manually, there may be exceptions for odd sized cargo, animal boxes exotic cars etc.

Cheers

Peter

All cargo Airbuses? A300s certainly are manual-movement on the upper deck. And it's quite easy to move around containers and pallets by hand - that's what roller systems and ballmats are for. A quick Google image search also shows manual upper deck on the A330F as well.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:01 am

Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

777s and 747s use powered cargo loading systems on the main deck. I don’t believe Airbus has ever put a powered main deck cargo loading system on their commercial freighters. A321s, A330s and A300s require people to physically push the pallets into their positions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1m5XFXjsGg


No idea under what rock you have been hiding. All cargo Airbuses always have had powered main- and lower deck cargo handling systems, that's not really rocket science. Even the A320 series has powered systems to load baggage cans - for those that elected the can option. No way you can move around all those containers, pallets, cans whatever manually, there may be exceptions for odd sized cargo, animal boxes exotic cars etc.

Cheers

Peter


No I am not living under a rock and I have spent a lot of my career working on airplanes. Please find me a video or picture of a powered main deck cargo floor on an Airbus airplane. I copied a link from Airbus that shows them physically pushing the cargo since there is no powered cargo loading system on the main deck. I’m curious if Airbus will choose to put in a powered cargo loading system on the A350 or will they rely on human power like they do for the A330
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:23 am

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
No I am not living under a rock and I have spent a lot of my career working on airplanes. Please find me a video or picture of a powered main deck cargo floor on an Airbus airplane. I copied a link from Airbus that shows them physically pushing the cargo since there is no powered cargo loading system on the main deck. I’m curious if Airbus will choose to put in a powered cargo loading system on the A350 or will they rely on human power like they do for the A330


There is one major supplier for most cargo aircraft, that is Telair ( https://telair.com/ ) , the supply the systems that are installed on most new build Airbus snd Boeing production freighters, including the 748F. They are the STC holder for these systems.

How airlines want them configured is a customer option. Manual loading systems are cheaper, lighter, and require less maintenance.

I think the a330 P2F would need a powered system as the main deck is not level. Looking at the P2F STC https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... 190812.pdf it states “ Powered Cargo Loading System per EASA STC 10063797”.

Airbus does produce their own main deck loading systems. They supply that system for the A400 and also to IAI/Bedek for their 747 P2F. https://www.airbusds-airborne.com/wp-co ... stomer.pdf

Best of my knowledge Boeing does not produce main deck loading systems.

I suspect the A350F will have the Airbus main deck system by default, Telair as an option.
 
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Heavierthanair
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:41 pm

G'day

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
No I am not living under a rock and I have spent a lot of my career working on airplanes. Please find me a video or picture of a powered main deck cargo floor on an Airbus airplane. I copied a link from Airbus that shows them physically pushing the cargo since there is no powered cargo loading system on the main deck. I’m curious if Airbus will choose to put in a powered cargo loading system on the A350 or will they rely on human power like they do for the A330


Well I apologize, I was not aware that cargo loading systems including powered versions are customer options. Most of the loading unloading operations I observed with powered systems were in Europe, where that option appears more popular, such as the use of cans by most European airlines (excl. LCC's) on the A 320 series with its related powered systems. Following videos of A330/A340 LD3 Container Loading and Unloading Operations and Telair's product range, including the powered option

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2Eeap54OAQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In6pBp4jjBE

Telair also developed the original cargo loading system for the B767 freighter, including a powered option

https://telair.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Telair_infosheet_196100_B767.pdf

The A330 P2F will use the powered system, since the fuselage is inclined, the A 330F does not need powered systems since this has a modified nose wheel and thus a horizontal fuselage. But I guess even for tha A330F an optional powered system is available.

Cheers

Peter
 
CRJockey
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:54 am

Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:11 pm

Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
No I am not living under a rock and I have spent a lot of my career working on airplanes. Please find me a video or picture of a powered main deck cargo floor on an Airbus airplane. I copied a link from Airbus that shows them physically pushing the cargo since there is no powered cargo loading system on the main deck. I’m curious if Airbus will choose to put in a powered cargo loading system on the A350 or will they rely on human power like they do for the A330


Well I apologize, I was not aware that cargo loading systems including powered versions are customer options. Most of the loading unloading operations I observed with powered systems were in Europe, where that option appears more popular, such as the use of cans by most European airlines (excl. LCC's) on the A 320 series with its related powered systems. Following videos of A330/A340 LD3 Container Loading and Unloading Operations and Telair's product range, including the powered option

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2Eeap54OAQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In6pBp4jjBE

Telair also developed the original cargo loading system for the B767 freighter, including a powered option

https://telair.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Telair_infosheet_196100_B767.pdf

The A330 P2F will use the powered system, since the fuselage is inclined, the A 330F does not need powered systems since this has a modified nose wheel and thus a horizontal fuselage. But I guess even for tha A330F an optional powered system is available.

Cheers

Peter


Just to add to your useful information, Peter:

What seems to elude many here is that the cargo loading system (CLS) is usually not anymore "Airbus" or "Boeing" than the engines or the gear. They are provided by Goodrich, Telair, you name them. There is no reason to believe that the CLS, powered or not, will be any kind of high risk item or otherwise disadvantageous vs. the competition for any sort of A350 freighter variant.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:45 am

CRJockey wrote:
Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
No I am not living under a rock and I have spent a lot of my career working on airplanes. Please find me a video or picture of a powered main deck cargo floor on an Airbus airplane. I copied a link from Airbus that shows them physically pushing the cargo since there is no powered cargo loading system on the main deck. I’m curious if Airbus will choose to put in a powered cargo loading system on the A350 or will they rely on human power like they do for the A330


Well I apologize, I was not aware that cargo loading systems including powered versions are customer options. Most of the loading unloading operations I observed with powered systems were in Europe, where that option appears more popular, such as the use of cans by most European airlines (excl. LCC's) on the A 320 series with its related powered systems. Following videos of A330/A340 LD3 Container Loading and Unloading Operations and Telair's product range, including the powered option

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2Eeap54OAQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In6pBp4jjBE

Telair also developed the original cargo loading system for the B767 freighter, including a powered option

https://telair.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Telair_infosheet_196100_B767.pdf

The A330 P2F will use the powered system, since the fuselage is inclined, the A 330F does not need powered systems since this has a modified nose wheel and thus a horizontal fuselage. But I guess even for tha A330F an optional powered system is available.

Cheers

Peter


Just to add to your useful information, Peter:

What seems to elude many here is that the cargo loading system (CLS) is usually not anymore "Airbus" or "Boeing" than the engines or the gear. They are provided by Goodrich, Telair, you name them. There is no reason to believe that the CLS, powered or not, will be any kind of high risk item or otherwise disadvantageous vs. the competition for any sort of A350 freighter variant.


The cargo loading system likely will impact the decision of some airlines to buy the airplane or not. An express freighter operation carrying mostly small packages can likely do just fine without a powered cargo handling system. An airline carrying heavy and odd size freight may need a cargo loading system that is powered. The 747 is the king of odd size cargo, so if Airbus wants to maximize the potential for replacing older 747s, they will need to maximize flexibility with their configuration. That’s easier to do with a new build freighter than a conversion since designing 9G / 16G rigid cargo barriers, powered loading systems, clearance between the cargo door and pitot static system & antennas is all easier when starting from scratch.
 
Gremlinzzzz
Posts: 361
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:11 am

flipdewaf wrote:
Gremlinzzzz wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Except that the 26m is for an 18 year old example and then the 26+ 35m is written off over 4years to be comparative. Meaning that it’s ~15m/year in financing costs.

A new example of a 77W is around 100m (as seen by UA and BA). So the difference on a like for like basis is closer to 35m in costs. A lower cost example would always have a lower residual value.

If you are worried about financing costs then I’d suggest a non manufacturer approved mod isn’t the way forward.

If you want quick lift then it might be the route forward but I’m not sure what rate the ERSF would be available or when or how long you asset stands idle being modified whilst losing value.

Fred

Sounds reasonable to amortise 2bn over 50 or so frames. Current A350 is amortising ~20bn over 900.

The use of existing components allows economies of scale to be applied particularly to the more niche A35k for which the A35F will share many structural parts it seems. If the A35F can double the expected use over the model life time 300->600 then you would reasonably expect 3-4m reductions in build costs. (Off the top of my head as I don’t have my build cost spreadsheet on me).

Like most mature manufacturing industries, the key is rate and uptime. Boeing did a fantastic job at this and upping their rate to ~13/14pm.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
$15.2 Billion on 900 frames.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airshow-airbus-sb-idUKTRE55F1Y720090616


Yes, 15.2bn in 2009, about 19.5bn in 2021 dollars.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What they need to pay back is what they used to develop this thing.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:07 am

Heavierthanair wrote:

Well I apologize, I was not aware that cargo loading systems including powered versions are customer options.


Think of the loading system like the passenger configuration, it’s entirely up to the airline how they want to configure it.

On the A320P2F for example there is no cargo loading system as part of the conversion STC. Most passenger aircraft are certified without seats or a cabin configuration, it requires a specific change.

This is not the end of the world for the A350 freighter. Airbus has the capability in-house to deliver as shown onnthe A400M and 747BCDF they apply systems for.
 
CRJockey
Posts: 354
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:02 am

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
CRJockey wrote:
Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day



Well I apologize, I was not aware that cargo loading systems including powered versions are customer options. Most of the loading unloading operations I observed with powered systems were in Europe, where that option appears more popular, such as the use of cans by most European airlines (excl. LCC's) on the A 320 series with its related powered systems. Following videos of A330/A340 LD3 Container Loading and Unloading Operations and Telair's product range, including the powered option

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2Eeap54OAQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In6pBp4jjBE

Telair also developed the original cargo loading system for the B767 freighter, including a powered option

https://telair.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Telair_infosheet_196100_B767.pdf

The A330 P2F will use the powered system, since the fuselage is inclined, the A 330F does not need powered systems since this has a modified nose wheel and thus a horizontal fuselage. But I guess even for tha A330F an optional powered system is available.

Cheers

Peter


Just to add to your useful information, Peter:

What seems to elude many here is that the cargo loading system (CLS) is usually not anymore "Airbus" or "Boeing" than the engines or the gear. They are provided by Goodrich, Telair, you name them. There is no reason to believe that the CLS, powered or not, will be any kind of high risk item or otherwise disadvantageous vs. the competition for any sort of A350 freighter variant.


The cargo loading system likely will impact the decision of some airlines to buy the airplane or not. An express freighter operation carrying mostly small packages can likely do just fine without a powered cargo handling system. An airline carrying heavy and odd size freight may need a cargo loading system that is powered. The 747 is the king of odd size cargo, so if Airbus wants to maximize the potential for replacing older 747s, they will need to maximize flexibility with their configuration. That’s easier to do with a new build freighter than a conversion since designing 9G / 16G rigid cargo barriers, powered loading systems, clearance between the cargo door and pitot static system & antennas is all easier when starting from scratch.


The A350 will have a powered system at least as an option. As such, no, the CLS is the least of all concerns while picking the 350, or not.

Airbus is not stupid. Airbus is talking to customers. The CLS will be what the potential customers want it to be.
 
texl1649
Posts: 1898
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:55 am

zeke wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
No I am not living under a rock and I have spent a lot of my career working on airplanes. Please find me a video or picture of a powered main deck cargo floor on an Airbus airplane. I copied a link from Airbus that shows them physically pushing the cargo since there is no powered cargo loading system on the main deck. I’m curious if Airbus will choose to put in a powered cargo loading system on the A350 or will they rely on human power like they do for the A330


There is one major supplier for most cargo aircraft, that is Telair ( https://telair.com/ ) , the supply the systems that are installed on most new build Airbus snd Boeing production freighters, including the 748F. They are the STC holder for these systems.

How airlines want them configured is a customer option. Manual loading systems are cheaper, lighter, and require less maintenance.

I think the a330 P2F would need a powered system as the main deck is not level. Looking at the P2F STC https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... 190812.pdf it states “ Powered Cargo Loading System per EASA STC 10063797”.

Airbus does produce their own main deck loading systems. They supply that system for the A400 and also to IAI/Bedek for their 747 P2F. https://www.airbusds-airborne.com/wp-co ... stomer.pdf

Best of my knowledge Boeing does not produce main deck loading systems.

I suspect the A350F will have the Airbus main deck system by default, Telair as an option.


I could be wrong zeke but doesn’t the A330F, and most A330 p2F’s get the extended nose gear to make the whole main floor level? Maybe this is an option to delete in favor of a powered loading system on the P2F, of course.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:16 pm

CRJockey wrote:

The A350 will have a powered system at least as an option. As such, no, the CLS is the least of all concerns while picking the 350, or not.

Airbus is not stupid. Airbus is talking to customers. The CLS will be what the potential customers want it to be.


I respectfully disagree. If airlines choose the A350 to replace 747-400s, they are buying an airplane that is less capable. The floor loading, pallet configuration, pallet locks (will it be able to carry US military pallets), odd size cargo dimensions, loading speed, system reliability, maintenance costs etc all matter. The cargo loading system is certainly not the least of all concerns since it is directly connected to what type of cargo the airplane can carry. Sure acquisition price and payload are more important factors in the ultimate decision, but I believe the specifics of the cargo handling system and what it can carry matter. A powered system that can load and unload an airplane in under 60 minutes with just three people will be attractive for some.
 
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Polot
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:53 pm

texl1649 wrote:
zeke wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
No I am not living under a rock and I have spent a lot of my career working on airplanes. Please find me a video or picture of a powered main deck cargo floor on an Airbus airplane. I copied a link from Airbus that shows them physically pushing the cargo since there is no powered cargo loading system on the main deck. I’m curious if Airbus will choose to put in a powered cargo loading system on the A350 or will they rely on human power like they do for the A330


There is one major supplier for most cargo aircraft, that is Telair ( https://telair.com/ ) , the supply the systems that are installed on most new build Airbus snd Boeing production freighters, including the 748F. They are the STC holder for these systems.

How airlines want them configured is a customer option. Manual loading systems are cheaper, lighter, and require less maintenance.

I think the a330 P2F would need a powered system as the main deck is not level. Looking at the P2F STC https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... 190812.pdf it states “ Powered Cargo Loading System per EASA STC 10063797”.

Airbus does produce their own main deck loading systems. They supply that system for the A400 and also to IAI/Bedek for their 747 P2F. https://www.airbusds-airborne.com/wp-co ... stomer.pdf

Best of my knowledge Boeing does not produce main deck loading systems.

I suspect the A350F will have the Airbus main deck system by default, Telair as an option.


I could be wrong zeke but doesn’t the A330F, and most A330 p2F’s get the extended nose gear to make the whole main floor level? Maybe this is an option to delete in favor of a powered loading system on the P2F, of course.

The A330F has the nose gear change (it’s actually the same length as pax version, just mounted lower) to make the floor level. The P2F retains the A330pax nose gear as extending or remounting it would have been too expensive to make conversions worthwhile.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:19 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
CRJockey wrote:

The A350 will have a powered system at least as an option. As such, no, the CLS is the least of all concerns while picking the 350, or not.

Airbus is not stupid. Airbus is talking to customers. The CLS will be what the potential customers want it to be.


I respectfully disagree. If airlines choose the A350 to replace 747-400s, they are buying an airplane that is less capable. The floor loading, pallet configuration, pallet locks (will it be able to carry US military pallets), odd size cargo dimensions, loading speed, system reliability, maintenance costs etc all matter. The cargo loading system is certainly not the least of all concerns since it is directly connected to what type of cargo the airplane can carry. Sure acquisition price and payload are more important factors in the ultimate decision, but I believe the specifics of the cargo handling system and what it can carry matter. A powered system that can load and unload an airplane in under 60 minutes with just three people will be attractive for some.

Er, what didnt you understand about the earlier posts about Airbus freighters equipped with third-party powered cargo systems, both upstairs and down? Are you crying for the B747? Well get into business, and build your alternative that satisfies all these needs out there that an A350 cant, and Boeing seemingly was unable to supply (or wasn't asked to supply)!
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:13 pm

sassiciai wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
CRJockey wrote:

The A350 will have a powered system at least as an option. As such, no, the CLS is the least of all concerns while picking the 350, or not.

Airbus is not stupid. Airbus is talking to customers. The CLS will be what the potential customers want it to be.


I respectfully disagree. If airlines choose the A350 to replace 747-400s, they are buying an airplane that is less capable. The floor loading, pallet configuration, pallet locks (will it be able to carry US military pallets), odd size cargo dimensions, loading speed, system reliability, maintenance costs etc all matter. The cargo loading system is certainly not the least of all concerns since it is directly connected to what type of cargo the airplane can carry. Sure acquisition price and payload are more important factors in the ultimate decision, but I believe the specifics of the cargo handling system and what it can carry matter. A powered system that can load and unload an airplane in under 60 minutes with just three people will be attractive for some.

Er, what didnt you understand about the earlier posts about Airbus freighters equipped with third-party powered cargo systems, both upstairs and down? Are you crying for the B747? Well get into business, and build your alternative that satisfies all these needs out there that an A350 cant, and Boeing seemingly was unable to supply (or wasn't asked to supply)!


I’m not crying. I’m saying that the design of the cargo handling system matters when airlines are evaluating different freighter types.
 
CRJockey
Posts: 354
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:07 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
sassiciai wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

I respectfully disagree. If airlines choose the A350 to replace 747-400s, they are buying an airplane that is less capable. The floor loading, pallet configuration, pallet locks (will it be able to carry US military pallets), odd size cargo dimensions, loading speed, system reliability, maintenance costs etc all matter. The cargo loading system is certainly not the least of all concerns since it is directly connected to what type of cargo the airplane can carry. Sure acquisition price and payload are more important factors in the ultimate decision, but I believe the specifics of the cargo handling system and what it can carry matter. A powered system that can load and unload an airplane in under 60 minutes with just three people will be attractive for some.

Er, what didnt you understand about the earlier posts about Airbus freighters equipped with third-party powered cargo systems, both upstairs and down? Are you crying for the B747? Well get into business, and build your alternative that satisfies all these needs out there that an A350 cant, and Boeing seemingly was unable to supply (or wasn't asked to supply)!


I’m not crying. I’m saying that the design of the cargo handling system matters when airlines are evaluating different freighter types.


It doesn't. Been there, done that. CLS are not as different as you suggest. They all basically take the same cans or pallets by locking them down with lugs. They do so in aircraft the size of a small narrow body all the way up to the 747. Powered or not is simply calculating if it is cheaper to maintain the powered parts of the CLS (CLS refurbishment is no cheap endeavour and not even infrequent) and employ a guy or two who can use it properly. Or if it is cheaper to employ a guy or twelve to push the crap down the plane. Seen both, both works. And minimum the powered version, but probably both will be available on any new build freighter of the size of a 350.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:26 pm

flee wrote:
Revelation wrote:
While this doesn't eliminate either as customers for new build freighters, IMO it suggests to me there is a bigger appetite for converting SUVs to pickups than was earlier suggested. Also, the investment isn't just coming from leasing firms like GECAS, it's also coming from airlines that already own 77Ws and think they can do well by converting them to 77WF. Make one wonder if even more airlines with a lot of aging 77Ws and access to good MRO facilities will work with IAI to set up more conversion lines. It might be the most profitable way to unwind their 77W fleets as they age out.

IMO this makes the A350 business case a bit more challenging, same for 77XF. That doesn't mean either will drop the idea, both have enough money or can borrow it to kick off programs whenever they want. It just means they're going to have to work harder to convince themselves it's worth doing, and suggests to me at least the rewards of doing so will be less than before this news came out. We may end up in a 'mutually assured destruction' scenario where we have two new build programs and one conversion program (with three lines already committed and perhaps more in the future) competing for the niche that only generated 261 sales ( ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_B ... deliveries ) in the previous generation.

I think airlines don't like the depressed resale value of relatively young used jets. They have worked out that it is better to convert the aircraft themselves than let others make a profit off them.

I think the A350F market is a little different - it is the established cargo airlines with pretty well laid out plans for their business well into the future that are the ones who are likely to be interested in it. Converted freighters are a better bet for startups and also for those airlines that need immediate capacity expansion.


Something just sprung to mind: Could Boeing (together with GE) make offers to airlines with 77W fleets for new 777-9 in combination with an interestingly low price freighter conversion for their 77W? Killing three birds with one stone: Making the 777X a more interesting proposition, and taking the wind off the sails of the A350F without having to develop a 777XF :scratchchin:
 
jagraham
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:55 pm

morrisond wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
morrisond wrote:

77F has Engines Derated to 110K and Ge9x has 110K at takeoff. It should not be much of an issue.

That passed me by to be honest. I thought it was still at 105klb.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


110K at takeoff, 103.5K Continuous vs XWB-97 97K at Takeoff, 83.1K Continuous - Albeit at a difference in weight of 9,630Kg vs 7,550KG which makes more sense when you see the continuous thrust difference. 27.5% more weight for 24.5% more thrust. An Ge90-115 is 8,762KG - so an 777X gains about 1,736 KG from the new Engines.

https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... %20XWB.pdf

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guid ... N_Rev0.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_GE90


The 77F burns about 7 tons / hr. The 2 tons extra weight would equate to 17 minutes of flight.

But the 77F carries a lot of fuel. Full fuel is about 145 tons. But most flights are closer to full payload and the fuel load is about 70t, or 10 hr; 5500 mi, 4800 nmi. Before the PIPs. If this is improved by 10%, it should be about 68t at 6.3 t / hr (approx), for about 10.8 hr (5300 nmi) of flight. Adding in the non engine PIPs would reduce fuel burn by about 0.1 t / hr.

Or of course, just pocket the 10% fuel savings. If the GE9X makes its numbers.

The question remains, would the 10% fuel savings and 5300 nmi range for 110t payload be enough versus a A350F?
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:12 am

The 777XF is an unannounced product that will be based upon an as yet uncertified product.

This thread is about the A350F, which has been given authority to offer and is based on an airframe enjoying certified revenue flights.
At the end of this decade, we will have A350s that have been in service for nearly 15 years... might some of them be candidates for a future A350P2F program too?

Would their be any benefit to carriers operating new build A350-950F freighters and a few A350-900P2F conversions? Might the entire A350 platform prove to be flexible for both? It is not the responsibility of Airbus to help it's competitor maintain their monopoly on the large freighter market.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:28 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
777s and 747s use powered cargo loading systems on the main deck. I don’t believe Airbus has ever put a powered main deck cargo loading system on their commercial freighters. A321s, A330s and A300s require people to physically push the pallets into their positions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1m5XFXjsGg


Found a short clip of the powered CLS on the A330F https://youtu.be/Dnyqx7iJ0nw also the A330 conversion process https://youtu.be/-i1sStSo1Zc

I think it would be fair to say that the steps shown in the A330 conversion video would be equally valid for the A350 freighter process,
Reinforced fuselage and frame shell - requires modified composite panels
Reinforced floor - different floor beams
Cargo door frame - different panel
Cargo door - new item probably composite
Window plugs - just do not cut out windows from panels
New fire detection system - requires sensors, wiring, and software modifications, and hopefully a fire-suppression system
Modified hydraulic system - requires sensors, wiring, hydraulic pipes, and software modifications
Modified drainage system - mainly plumbing
Modified oxygen system - mainly plumbing
Modified air conditioning system - plumbing and sensors
Modified electric system
New floor panels
New powered loaded system
Ball mat area
Loading bridge
Crash barrier and smoke curtain
Cargo lining
Courier module
 
morrisond
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:11 pm

zeke wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
777s and 747s use powered cargo loading systems on the main deck. I don’t believe Airbus has ever put a powered main deck cargo loading system on their commercial freighters. A321s, A330s and A300s require people to physically push the pallets into their positions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1m5XFXjsGg


Found a short clip of the powered CLS on the A330F https://youtu.be/Dnyqx7iJ0nw also the A330 conversion process https://youtu.be/-i1sStSo1Zc

I think it would be fair to say that the steps shown in the A330 conversion video would be equally valid for the A350 freighter process,
Reinforced fuselage and frame shell - requires modified composite panels
Reinforced floor - different floor beams
Cargo door frame - different panel
Cargo door - new item probably composite
Window plugs - just do not cut out windows from panels
New fire detection system - requires sensors, wiring, and software modifications, and hopefully a fire-suppression system
Modified hydraulic system - requires sensors, wiring, hydraulic pipes, and software modifications
Modified drainage system - mainly plumbing
Modified oxygen system - mainly plumbing
Modified air conditioning system - plumbing and sensors
Modified electric system
New floor panels
New powered loaded system
Ball mat area
Loading bridge
Crash barrier and smoke curtain
Cargo lining
Courier module


Yeh - No problem - they can make 2025 EIS......
 
Daysleeper
Posts: 631
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:33 pm

Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:43 pm

morrisond wrote:
zeke wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
777s and 747s use powered cargo loading systems on the main deck. I don’t believe Airbus has ever put a powered main deck cargo loading system on their commercial freighters. A321s, A330s and A300s require people to physically push the pallets into their positions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1m5XFXjsGg


Found a short clip of the powered CLS on the A330F https://youtu.be/Dnyqx7iJ0nw also the A330 conversion process https://youtu.be/-i1sStSo1Zc

I think it would be fair to say that the steps shown in the A330 conversion video would be equally valid for the A350 freighter process,
Reinforced fuselage and frame shell - requires modified composite panels
Reinforced floor - different floor beams
Cargo door frame - different panel
Cargo door - new item probably composite
Window plugs - just do not cut out windows from panels
New fire detection system - requires sensors, wiring, and software modifications, and hopefully a fire-suppression system
Modified hydraulic system - requires sensors, wiring, hydraulic pipes, and software modifications
Modified drainage system - mainly plumbing
Modified oxygen system - mainly plumbing
Modified air conditioning system - plumbing and sensors
Modified electric system
New floor panels
New powered loaded system
Ball mat area
Loading bridge
Crash barrier and smoke curtain
Cargo lining
Courier module


Yeh - No problem - they can make 2025 EIS......


Not sure if you're trying to be funny, but considering it took Airbus only 8 years to from announcing the A350 as a clean sheet design to it being certified. I'd say 4 years to introduce a pre-planned variant is being more than generous.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:31 pm

Daysleeper wrote:
Not sure if you're trying to be funny, but considering it took Airbus only 8 years to from announcing the A350 as a clean sheet design to it being certified. I'd say 4 years to introduce a pre-planned variant is being more than generous.


I also think the timeframe is achievable, looking at the A330F it was announced in Jan 2007 (https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... ahead.html) with EIS 44 months later in Aug 2010 (https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... rways.html)

The planned A350F of 2025 would give them around 48 months (assume mid 2025) which is slightly longer than the A330F. Both A330/A350 programs being done in house with OEM data (ie CAD model of the aircraft and systems and stress calculations) available as a starting point, and access to modify the software, manuals, and TCDS, which is needed for the modified hydraulic, electric, air conditioning, cabin, drainage, and fire protection systems I outlined above.

In contrast the 77WP2F is considered to be fully achievable without question in 36 months (launch Oct 2019 EIS 2022) with no access to OEM data, so the need to reverse engineer the structure from the first aircraft into a CAD model, perform stress calculations, electronically map and modify/remove systems, and no access to the AIMS software to modify the monitoring and operation of systems and emergency procedures.
 
Opus99
Topic Author
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:03 pm

https://twitter.com/rschuur_aero/status ... 43466?s=21

CCO unwilling to specify when launch will happen but says the jet is selling
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:52 pm

Meanwhile we see EK has signed up for five 77W P2F conversions from IAI:

https://twitter.com/LeehamNews/status/1 ... 6368473089

Airbus better get moving on A350F, the SUVs converted to pickups are being bought by blue chip airlines.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:48 pm

Well they have a massive 77W fleet, so I imagine they are providing the raw stock... It's Bring Your Own Boeing
 
2175301
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:14 am

Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/rschuur_aero/status/1440405309021843466?s=21

CCO unwilling to specify when launch will happen but says the jet is selling


I hope so. But, if this is true they could announce an actual order.

In reality, it just sounds like they are in talks and perhaps have some kind of verbal agreement - if things work out.

I'll not break out the popcorn on such sketchy news.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:42 am

Revelation wrote:
Meanwhile we see EK has signed up for five 77W P2F conversions from IAI:

https://twitter.com/LeehamNews/status/1 ... 6368473089

Airbus better get moving on A350F, the SUVs converted to pickups are being bought by blue chip airlines.


For a lot of 77W operators the only way to get a decent value on their older aircraft is to convert, as the passenger valuations are quite low these days. Converting may allow the airline to not realize the loss in value, helping with the balance sheet even though the loss is real.

The 77W P2F's are not perfect, requiring lower density on the main floor as well as overall. The heavier pallets will need to be below deck, and the users will need to shift only the lower density to it, with the higher density cargo elsewhere. But at least half if not 2/3 of the cargo out there does work in it. With its lighter density it might need to quote lower rates by weight, but it has a lot more volume.

Over 20 years these 77W P2F's could be 25% of the market, possibly more.
 
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flee
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:17 am

2175301 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/rschuur_aero/status/1440405309021843466?s=21

CCO unwilling to specify when launch will happen but says the jet is selling

I hope so. But, if this is true they could announce an actual order.

In reality, it just sounds like they are in talks and perhaps have some kind of verbal agreement - if things work out.

I'll not break out the popcorn on such sketchy news.

Sounds to me that there are interested customers but Airbus are not able to find a spec for ALL the interested parties. That is why they are not able to close the orders and are still working on a spec that will appeal to more customers. I would also not discount that the price tag is still to be to everyone's satisfaction.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:32 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Meanwhile we see EK has signed up for five 77W P2F conversions from IAI:

https://twitter.com/LeehamNews/status/1 ... 6368473089

Airbus better get moving on A350F, the SUVs converted to pickups are being bought by blue chip airlines.


For a lot of 77W operators the only way to get a decent value on their older aircraft is to convert, as the passenger valuations are quite low these days. .


There is also little in the way of alternative at all. Every single cargo aircraft you can buy new is the same or older generation the 77W is, and the only other P2F conversion on the market is the A330P2F. And if you order that one today, you´ll get it in 2025 since the conversion line is sold out. You might even have your A350F on the tarmac before you get your hands on a A330P2F.

best regards
Thomas
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:05 am

[photoid][/photoid]
Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/rschuur_aero/status/1440405309021843466?s=21

CCO unwilling to specify when launch will happen but says the jet is selling


Hmm this Airbus CCO Christian Scherer has a loud mouth like John Leahy yet I'm not so sure he has Leahy's salesman skills. The A350F is selling but no orders announcement? And I thought launch of the A350F had already happened, hence the thread title? Schrerer in an earlier interview said "I could sell them (A32x aircraft) with my eyes closed right now, I just don’t have to". https://airinsight.com/in-conversation- ... n-scherer/ But they did sell aircraft to Jet2, great win for Airbus, but I can't believe Jet2 is the airline which would pay premium prices for new aircraft. So I'll take mr. Scherer's words with a grain of salt...

Meanwhile EK orders 777-300ERSF while also having A359 on order, undoubtedly a setback for the A350F.

I'm sure the A350F can be a great success and will gain orders from blue chip customers, I just don't like these announcements that they're selling aircraft and it's a great success yet aren't announcing orders.
 
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Wildlander
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:11 am

Highly doubtful that the EK announcement has any impact on A350F prospects. Lessors/Financiers must be falling over each other offering sweet deals on the 300ERs coming off lease in the coming years. Long before the A350F becomes available. No contest.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:28 am

Wildlander wrote:
Highly doubtful that the EK announcement has any impact on A350F prospects. Lessors/Financiers must be falling over each other offering sweet deals on the 300ERs coming off lease in the coming years. Long before the A350F becomes available. No contest.


And its a bit like claiming used A346 where serious competition for new 77W. And the fuel burn per payload difference between those to probably wasn´t as wide it is between a 77W and an A359.

best regards
Thomas
 
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crimsonchin
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:38 am

"Selling" in this instance is sounding like those times Boeing was on the cusp of multiple orders for the -8i that somehow never happened.
 
MUCFan
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:07 pm

crimsonchin wrote:
"Selling" in this instance is sounding like those times Boeing was on the cusp of multiple orders for the -8i that somehow never happened.


That is beyond an apples to oranges comparison. One type is in demand and the other one is no longer in production.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:46 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Meanwhile we see EK has signed up for five 77W P2F conversions from IAI:

https://twitter.com/LeehamNews/status/1 ... 6368473089

Airbus better get moving on A350F, the SUVs converted to pickups are being bought by blue chip airlines.

For a lot of 77W operators the only way to get a decent value on their older aircraft is to convert, as the passenger valuations are quite low these days. Converting may allow the airline to not realize the loss in value, helping with the balance sheet even though the loss is real.

The 77W P2F's are not perfect, requiring lower density on the main floor as well as overall. The heavier pallets will need to be below deck, and the users will need to shift only the lower density to it, with the higher density cargo elsewhere. But at least half if not 2/3 of the cargo out there does work in it. With its lighter density it might need to quote lower rates by weight, but it has a lot more volume.

Over 20 years these 77W P2F's could be 25% of the market, possibly more.

It seems the industry kinda is already adapting to this model with pfreighters, heavy stuff below decks and boxes on the main deck with chairs temporarily or permanently removed. Seems they can make money with this, so P2F with an actual cargo door and cargo handling system like rollers should be just fine for many use cases.

tommy1808 wrote:
There is also little in the way of alternative at all. Every single cargo aircraft you can buy new is the same or older generation the 77W is, and the only other P2F conversion on the market is the A330P2F. And if you order that one today, you´ll get it in 2025 since the conversion line is sold out. You might even have your A350F on the tarmac before you get your hands on a A330P2F.

best regards
Thomas

True dat, if you read our cargo thread you see even DC8s and 742s are getting some flights in these days. IMO the pandemic has really accelerated the shift to e-commerce and we're seeing a new normal.

frigatebird wrote:
I'm sure the A350F can be a great success and will gain orders from blue chip customers, I just don't like these announcements that they're selling aircraft and it's a great success yet aren't announcing orders.

I was saying that dozens of posts ago, got lots of pushback.

tommy1808 wrote:
And its a bit like claiming used A346 where serious competition for new 77W. And the fuel burn per payload difference between those to probably wasn´t as wide it is between a 77W and an A359.

Not really, the pax market is so competitive that one needs state of the art economic performance to be in the game, which is not the case for lots of freighter use cases.

777 economics are still acceptable, customers are still ordering new 77Fs after all. 777WF takes a hit on performance, but for far lower aquisition cost, so the economics pencil out quite well.
 
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reidar76
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:56 pm

Reuters reports: "Airbus formally began marketing the proposed freight variant in July, taking aim at Boeing’s grip on the global cargo market."

“We are in a number of very encouraging discussions,” Chief Commercial Officer Christian Scherer told reporters in Toulouse. “It is available for sale and is selling,” he added.

Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-09-21/
 
2175301
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:08 pm

reidar76 wrote:
Reuters reports: "Airbus formally began marketing the proposed freight variant in July, taking aim at Boeing’s grip on the global cargo market."

“We are in a number of very encouraging discussions,” Chief Commercial Officer Christian Scherer told reporters in Toulouse. “It is available for sale and is selling,” he added.

Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 021-09-21/


Your a day late with that news. That's what the recent discussion has been about.

I'll celebrate that its selling only after there is formal announcement of an order. At this point it just seems that they are talking to potential clients about it... and there are as of yet no announced specs on it nor announced orders.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:15 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Meanwhile we see EK has signed up for five 77W P2F conversions from IAI:

https://twitter.com/LeehamNews/status/1 ... 6368473089

Airbus better get moving on A350F, the SUVs converted to pickups are being bought by blue chip airlines.


For a lot of 77W operators the only way to get a decent value on their older aircraft is to convert, as the passenger valuations are quite low these days. .


There is also little in the way of alternative at all. Every single cargo aircraft you can buy new is the same or older generation the 77W is, and the only other P2F conversion on the market is the A330P2F. And if you order that one today, you´ll get it in 2025 since the conversion line is sold out. You might even have your A350F on the tarmac before you get your hands on a A330P2F.

best regards
Thomas


The various generations are as follows:
Latest - both engine and air frame:
A359 and A35X - only passenger - A new build freighter version is being considered but no orders on the books yet.
B788, B789, and B78X - only passenger - no announcements that Boeing is considering a freighter here.
B77X - only passenger but new build freighter is anticipated. I placed here as both new engine, new size, new wing.

Major upgraded- latest gen engines on older air frame:
B737 MAX - basically only passenger, unaware of any orders for a freighter either new or conversion.
A320neo and A321neo - basically only passenger, unaware of any orders for a freighter either new or conversion.
A338neo and A339neo - basically only passenger, unaware of any orders for a freighter either new or conversion.
B748F and B748i - The 748i is only passenger as new build, too small of fleet for major conversion program. The 748F had its last call for orders, 748F sales were less than anticipated - production ending.

A generation back - engine and air frame
B77W - best performance of this group - only passenger currently, several P2F conversion programs going thru certification. Probably hottest conversion prospect.
B77F - best performance of new build freighter but a sunset of the order stream is apparent.
A380 - unlikely to have a conversion program.
A330F - lackluster orders for new build.
A330 P2F - Covid changes economics, now a promising conversion candidate but very few converted so far.
A340 - some conversions I recall, but no significant conversion programs.
A320ceo - conversion programs beginning, not sure how significant.
B737ng - conversion programs in place, conversions occurring with pace building.

Slightly more than a generation back:
B747-400 Passenger - many converted in the past, no new conversions in a decade.
B747-400 F - no new orders (obviously) - nearly entire fleet in service.
B767 freighter - steady order book at this time but a sunset of the order stream is apparent.
B767 P2F - the -300ER models, in particular the GE ones are the most popular conversion feed stock currently. The -200 and non ER -300's have low conversion prospects.
B777 - not 300ER or 200LR - too many different variants and difficulty with converting due to the floor beams. Low conversion prospects.

Several generations back:
B757 - former high demand for conversions, limited feed stock left to convert.
A300, A310 - no new conversions in over a decade, fleet is in the retirement phase.
MD's - no new conversions in over a decade, fleet is in the retirement phase.
B747's before the -400 - fleet is in the retirement phase.
and many other older freighter frames.

I will use a proxy for efficiency and economics, the current orders and activity. Those invested in the performance select the aircraft that will be the most profitable, and drop the least profitable. So trends in utilization tell a lot about the relative economics.

The hot models in the market right now is the 77W P2F conversion, and the 767-300ER conversion. The NB 738ng and A321ceo P2F are both building programs. A building but slower A330 P2F demand.

New build freighter orders have been OK, but not great. The initial cost is too high, reducing the economics to below other choices.
---
If the economics of the latest generation new build freighters looked good, there would already be a lot of B77xF and A350F orders in place, but not so far. With each upswing in fuel prices the latest new builds improve, with each drop in fuel as well as valuations the older model conversions improve.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14663
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:43 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
A building but slower A330 P2F demand.


Slow demand? It's sold out till 2025 @ rate 30 in 2024 and 2025. That is 109 orders already. That is a higher rate than the 777F ever had and more than half the 767F deliveries over the last 25 years in just five.
That is more than the average total annual WB conversions of all types combined for the last 1.5 decades.
I'd call that pretty hot selling.

A320ceo - conversion programs beginning, not sure how significant.


Sold out till 2025, mostly A321P2F. Rates going up to 31 in 2025. That is 119 orders.

By 2025 there will be be plenty Airbus rated cargo pilots around to fly A350Fs.

Best regards
Thomas

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