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zeke
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:28 pm

jagraham wrote:
actually 61t per https://aircraft.airbus.com/en/aircraft ... /a330-200f

but yes, more than 46t; first source was off


That link you provided under the large bold "Performance and Efficiency" title states

"The A330-200F flies 20% further and has a cost per tonne that is 13% lower than its direct competitor. It is capable of carrying 65-to-70 tonnes of payload, with a range that stretches from 3,200 nm up to 4,000 nm."
 
Cardude2
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:47 pm

HPRamper wrote:
Cardude2 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:

Like passenger aircraft, there doesn't have to be a direct replacement. I think we will see a lot of 738 freighters replacing 757s. Moreover, there aren't many DC-10 and MD-11 left outside of UPS and FedEx and many of those are being replaced by 767s and 777s. In fact, LH just finished replacing their MD-11s with 777Fs. So, no, Boeing doesn't look to be losing that market share.


Partially incorrect statement, the only DC-10s left in freighter operations are 10 MD-10’s at fedex which are being replaced by new built 767’s. The only other freighter MD 10 left is one at TAB cargo. As for MD-11’s it’s just FedEx, UPS, and western global. And FedEx and ups are considering replacing there entire MD-11’s with either the 777xf or A350F, hence why you see them both in talks with airbus for this aircraft.

FX has 12 active MD-10-30s left, all 10-10s have been sent to VCV. 57 active MD-11 but I don't believe that number includes the ex-LH birds recently pulled out of the desert. The 11s will be in the fleet for many more years, and the retirement of the 10s has been put on hold (again) because of lift needs.


forgot the Asterix on the statement of MD-10 retirement, my guess is 3 more years
 
Cardude2
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:57 pm

Revelation wrote:
Cardude2 wrote:
As for MD-11’s it’s just FedEx, UPS, and western global. And FedEx and ups are considering replacing there entire MD-11’s with either the 777xf or A350F, hence why you see them both in talks with airbus for this aircraft.

I don't know that we will see entire fleets replaced. From what I've learned over the years FX has drawn the MD-11s closer to home since it's hard to get MX on MD-11s worldwide. This means some probably are under-utilized, so replacement with 777XF/A350F would be expensive over-kill. You might see a smaller number of large wide bodies ordered along with 767s to really replace the MD-11s in the domestic role. Perhaps some load-juggling between hubs and various destinations would be used to re-balance the fleet. It's pretty clear that 77XF/A350F will be much more expensive than 767F or conversions so the customers will only want to use them where they can really be justified.


ok, but what about the FedEx frames it already said it was retiring with its recent order of 777f's and 767f's, but gave a temporary lease on life due to demand, they will need to go within the coming years. What are those going to get replaced by? And also what about UPS, to my knowledge that's why both are talking to Airbus and Boeing about these aircraft.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:21 pm

Passenger aircraft have been available in different lengths for a while; has there ever been factory cargo planes with different lengths produced at the same time?
 
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reidar76
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:48 pm

Flightglobal.com reports that EASA says extended single-pilot operations could be implemented from 2025. That's the same year the A350F will enter service. Coincidence?

Extended minimum-crew operations (EMCO), whereby flight times are increased by allowing single-pilot periods during cruise, supplemented by advanced cockpit support, enabling crew rest on long haul. No need for relief pilots, and thereby costs saved. This will be an important differentiator from a potential 777XF.

EASA points out that its air operations regulations regarding flightcrew composition already lay out conditions which might permit single-pilot operations. It is EMCOs that is now under study.

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/eas ... 23.article
 
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452QX
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:06 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Passenger aircraft have been available in different lengths for a while; has there ever been factory cargo planes with different lengths produced at the same time?


The closest I can think is the A300F and A310F, but if we’re including 3rd party conversions then you can add a number of Boeing aircraft, especially different 737s
 
tomcat
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:47 pm

452QX wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Passenger aircraft have been available in different lengths for a while; has there ever been factory cargo planes with different lengths produced at the same time?


The closest I can think is the A300F and A310F, but if we’re including 3rd party conversions then you can add a number of Boeing aircraft, especially different 737s


While not civilian, the C-130J comes in 2 lengths.

For conversions, both the ATR-42 and 72 have conversion kits.

Finally, while not exactly a different fuselage length, the upper decks of the 744/8F were shorter than the upper decks of the 744/8.
 
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keesje
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:41 am

reidar76 wrote:
Flightglobal.com reports that EASA says extended single-pilot operations could be implemented from 2025. That's the same year the A350F will enter service. Coincidence?

Extended minimum-crew operations (EMCO), whereby flight times are increased by allowing single-pilot periods during cruise, supplemented by advanced cockpit support, enabling crew rest on long haul. No need for relief pilots, and thereby costs saved. This will be an important differentiator from a potential 777XF.

EASA points out that its air operations regulations regarding flightcrew composition already lay out conditions which might permit single-pilot operations. It is EMCOs that is now under study.

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/eas ... 23.article


From the article extensive cockpit, pilot monitoring requirements are studied. No doubt direct cockpit access from the crew rest is also in the requirements..
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:35 pm

452QX wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Passenger aircraft have been available in different lengths for a while; has there ever been factory cargo planes with different lengths produced at the same time?


The closest I can think is the A300F and A310F, but if we’re including 3rd party conversions then you can add a number of Boeing aircraft, especially different 737s

Airbus did not produce a single factory-fresh A310F; they were all conversion.
And I was talking factory cargo planes, not conversion.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:44 pm

tomcat wrote:
452QX wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Passenger aircraft have been available in different lengths for a while; has there ever been factory cargo planes with different lengths produced at the same time?


The closest I can think is the A300F and A310F, but if we’re including 3rd party conversions then you can add a number of Boeing aircraft, especially different 737s


While not civilian, the C-130J comes in 2 lengths.

For conversions, both the ATR-42 and 72 have conversion kits.

Finally, while not exactly a different fuselage length, the upper decks of the 744/8F were shorter than the upper decks of the 744/8.

All 747Fs from Boeing had the shorter upper deck; I'm not sure cargo operators use it for cargo, rather for supernumeraries.
Only the ATR72 was offered from the factory as cargo.

So, bottom line, no (civilian) cargo aircraft was offered from the factory in multiple length at the same time; the 747-8F has a longer length than the previous 747Fs, but there was a lapse of time in deliveries when they switched from the -400 to the -8 (2009 to 2011)
 
UPS Pilot
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:43 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Would the 767 final assembly line be ready to cover serious freighter demand (say Amazon) on top of the low rate tanker plus the odd -300F? IIRC it has been moved to a smaller hall and optimized for military production needs?


The 767 and A350 don’t really compete since the 767 does regional/domestic flying well (a few operators use it transatlantic and transpacific with ANC stopovers). The A350 is best suited for long haul freight.

With that said, there is plenty of space in Everett to increase production rate on 767 if Boeing wants to make the investment.


UPS launched the 767 Freighter back in the early 1990’s. It’s been flying international since and has been a work horse for international flying for UPS. They would still compete with the A350. The 767 competed with the MD-11 when UPS launched the 767 Freighter. UPS almost bought MD-11 new builds instead of the 767 then.
 
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keesje
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:54 am

reidar76 wrote:
Flightglobal.com reports that EASA says extended single-pilot operations could be implemented from 2025. That's the same year the A350F will enter service. Coincidence?

Extended minimum-crew operations (EMCO), whereby flight times are increased by allowing single-pilot periods during cruise, supplemented by advanced cockpit support, enabling crew rest on long haul. No need for relief pilots, and thereby costs saved. This will be an important differentiator from a potential 777XF.

EASA points out that its air operations regulations regarding flightcrew composition already lay out conditions which might permit single-pilot operations. It is EMCOs that is now under study.

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/eas ... 23.article


The A350 was launched in 2006, 15 years ago. It seems a lot of evolutionary developments have progressed, including reduced crew, ULH and now the freighter. I guess all this will result in an enhanced A350 base version in the second half of this decade.

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keesje
 
iridescent
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:40 pm

keesje wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
Flightglobal.com reports that EASA says extended single-pilot operations could be implemented from 2025. That's the same year the A350F will enter service. Coincidence?

Extended minimum-crew operations (EMCO), whereby flight times are increased by allowing single-pilot periods during cruise, supplemented by advanced cockpit support, enabling crew rest on long haul. No need for relief pilots, and thereby costs saved. This will be an important differentiator from a potential 777XF.

EASA points out that its air operations regulations regarding flightcrew composition already lay out conditions which might permit single-pilot operations. It is EMCOs that is now under study.

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/eas ... 23.article


From the article extensive cockpit, pilot monitoring requirements are studied. No doubt direct cockpit access from the crew rest is also in the requirements..


A350 is capable of direct cockpit access for flight crew rest. A revised cockpit door is installed further aft in the cockpit passageway.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:54 am

Cardude2 wrote:
ok, but what about the FedEx frames it already said it was retiring with its recent order of 777f's and 767f's, but gave a temporary lease on life due to demand, they will need to go within the coming years. What are those going to get replaced by? And also what about UPS, to my knowledge that's why both are talking to Airbus and Boeing about these aircraft.

:scratchchin: My last post here disappeared for some reason...it seems people didn't appreciate differing views. Anyway, the A350F could truly be over-specified for other carriers' requirements. But I suppose these features could easily be integrated onto an A338F without too much expense so they can have a midway option.....

Image
https://aircraft.airbus.com/sites/g/fil ... k=4WdhIkDW


Image
https://www.airbus.com/sites/g/files/jl ... k=82VofH6X


reidar76 wrote:
Flightglobal.com reports that EASA says extended single-pilot operations could be implemented from 2025. That's the same year the A350F will enter service. Coincidence?

No reason why it couldn't be adopted for an A338F as well if Airbus launched the variant now -- that would even be a bigger differentiator. And while they're at it, they could study lopping the sharklets off the A338 and test-fly same for those against the 64m cargo ramp wingspan (but seemingly okay with it for the A339). To make it a one-time developmental effort for really loaded freight operators who could not be bothered with second-hand, converted frames! :idea:
 
TriniA340
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:24 pm

Maybe Airbus will go all out and announce a triple-threat at the DAS (wishful thinking) :D
A350F, A330neoF, A321neoF ;)
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:32 pm

A350 specs detailed:

• Based on 319t A350-1000, but shorted five frames, all ahead of the wing
• 6.9m longer than 777F which lets it have 10% greater volume (695 m3 vs 633 m3)
• Payload of 109t is 4.5% more than 777F
• Payload density 9.8 lb/ft3 vs 10.2 ft/3 for 777F

Very nice specs, should make for an interesting product!

Some verbiage about why they think A332F failed and A350F won't:

Scherer said that the A350 with its structure, in particular the A350-1000 version, “which is the world’s longest-range airplane, has a structural capability that previous Airbus airplanes did not have to receive the density of heavy cargo and not just packaged freight.”

Airbus’ previous freighters fell short on structure. “The A300 is a very good package freighter. It’s not a heavy-duty freighter,” Scherer said. “The mistake Airbus made [with the A330-200F] was to say, ‘Look, we don’t have an airplane that is really capable of that having density, but we want that range.’ We developed the 330 freighter on the basis of the -200, and that was the mistake. We should have done it on the -300, because the 200, even though it’s got a little better structural capability than the -300 still doesn’t have the structural capability for the heavy freight. We should’ve gone for volumetric payload, as opposed to trying to compromise between structural payload and volume. We’re not making that same mistake [with the A350] because we’re starting with the bigger module.”

Also, a projection that 77XF won't see EIS till 2029, which IMO sounds implausible.

Ref: https://leehamnews.com/2021/11/11/airbu ... more-37783
 
Opus99
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:34 pm

Revelation wrote:
A350 specs detailed:

• Based on 319t A350-1000, but shorted five frames, all ahead of the wing
• 6.9m longer than 777F which lets it have 10% greater volume (695 m3 vs 633 m3)
• Payload of 109t is 4.5% more than 777F
• Payload density 9.8 lb/ft3 vs 10.2 ft/3 for 777F

Very nice specs, should make for an interesting product!

Some verbiage about why they think A332F failed and A350F won't:

Scherer said that the A350 with its structure, in particular the A350-1000 version, “which is the world’s longest-range airplane, has a structural capability that previous Airbus airplanes did not have to receive the density of heavy cargo and not just packaged freight.”

Airbus’ previous freighters fell short on structure. “The A300 is a very good package freighter. It’s not a heavy-duty freighter,” Scherer said. “The mistake Airbus made [with the A330-200F] was to say, ‘Look, we don’t have an airplane that is really capable of that having density, but we want that range.’ We developed the 330 freighter on the basis of the -200, and that was the mistake. We should have done it on the -300, because the 200, even though it’s got a little better structural capability than the -300 still doesn’t have the structural capability for the heavy freight. We should’ve gone for volumetric payload, as opposed to trying to compromise between structural payload and volume. We’re not making that same mistake [with the A350] because we’re starting with the bigger module.”

Also, a projection that 77XF won't see EIS till 2029, which IMO sounds implausible.

Ref: https://leehamnews.com/2021/11/11/airbu ... more-37783

Especially if they launch in the next few weeks/months. I wonder who his sources are? Or what market intelligence they are using.

Secondly, a lot of info, no potential customers? Will they launch at Dubai? Question reminds unanswered.

Bloomberg has the 350F being available 2 years before XF. So I’m not sure of this 2029 he speaks of.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:51 pm

Revelation wrote:
A350 specs detailed:

• Based on 319t A350-1000, but shorted five frames, all ahead of the wing
• 6.9m longer than 777F which lets it have 10% greater volume (695 m3 vs 633 m3)
• Payload of 109t is 4.5% more than 777F
• Payload density 9.8 lb/ft3 vs 10.2 ft/3 for 777F

Very nice specs, should make for an interesting product!

Some verbiage about why they think A332F failed and A350F won't:

Scherer said that the A350 with its structure, in particular the A350-1000 version, “which is the world’s longest-range airplane, has a structural capability that previous Airbus airplanes did not have to receive the density of heavy cargo and not just packaged freight.”

Airbus’ previous freighters fell short on structure. “The A300 is a very good package freighter. It’s not a heavy-duty freighter,” Scherer said. “The mistake Airbus made [with the A330-200F] was to say, ‘Look, we don’t have an airplane that is really capable of that having density, but we want that range.’ We developed the 330 freighter on the basis of the -200, and that was the mistake. We should have done it on the -300, because the 200, even though it’s got a little better structural capability than the -300 still doesn’t have the structural capability for the heavy freight. We should’ve gone for volumetric payload, as opposed to trying to compromise between structural payload and volume. We’re not making that same mistake [with the A350] because we’re starting with the bigger module.”

Also, a projection that 77XF won't see EIS till 2029, which IMO sounds implausible.

Ref: https://leehamnews.com/2021/11/11/airbu ... more-37783


Interesting article (has numbers so I'm happy).

Based on my estimates this gives the A35F an empty weight of ~125t :shock: a 234t MZFW and a MZFW range of ~5300nm.
I calculated the length as 70.6m approximately.
I think there was some confusion in the article about the payloads of the current A350 as it stated 63t for the A35k and I would expect that from the A359.

Fred
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:15 pm

Revelation wrote:
"Airbus’ previous freighters fell short on structure. 'The A300 is a very good package freighter. It’s not a heavy-duty freighter,' Scherer said. 'The mistake Airbus made (with the A330-200F) was to say, ‘Look, we don’t have an airplane that is really capable of that having density, but we want that range'."

Which presumably is an error Airbus would not make with a structurally robust and longer-ranged A338F! :weightlifter:
 
tomcat
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:34 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Revelation wrote:
A350 specs detailed:

• Based on 319t A350-1000, but shorted five frames, all ahead of the wing
• 6.9m longer than 777F which lets it have 10% greater volume (695 m3 vs 633 m3)
• Payload of 109t is 4.5% more than 777F
• Payload density 9.8 lb/ft3 vs 10.2 ft/3 for 777F

Very nice specs, should make for an interesting product!

Some verbiage about why they think A332F failed and A350F won't:

Scherer said that the A350 with its structure, in particular the A350-1000 version, “which is the world’s longest-range airplane, has a structural capability that previous Airbus airplanes did not have to receive the density of heavy cargo and not just packaged freight.”

Airbus’ previous freighters fell short on structure. “The A300 is a very good package freighter. It’s not a heavy-duty freighter,” Scherer said. “The mistake Airbus made [with the A330-200F] was to say, ‘Look, we don’t have an airplane that is really capable of that having density, but we want that range.’ We developed the 330 freighter on the basis of the -200, and that was the mistake. We should have done it on the -300, because the 200, even though it’s got a little better structural capability than the -300 still doesn’t have the structural capability for the heavy freight. We should’ve gone for volumetric payload, as opposed to trying to compromise between structural payload and volume. We’re not making that same mistake [with the A350] because we’re starting with the bigger module.”

Also, a projection that 77XF won't see EIS till 2029, which IMO sounds implausible.

Ref: https://leehamnews.com/2021/11/11/airbu ... more-37783


Interesting article (has numbers so I'm happy).

Based on my estimates this gives the A35F an empty weight of ~125t :shock: a 234t MZFW and a MZFW range of ~5300nm.
I calculated the length as 70.6m approximately.
I think there was some confusion in the article about the payloads of the current A350 as it stated 63t for the A35k and I would expect that from the A359.

Fred


The empty weight seems really low. LNA announces it 30t lighter than the A351 and 20t lighter than the 777F (which is smaller than the A350F but is sized for a higher MTOW though). Also, per Wikipedia, the 777F has a 22.7t lower empty weight than the 77W while being 10m (of aluminum tube) shorter than the latter. The 30t weight saving of the A350F from an initially lighter structure is mind boggling. I guess the cabin furniture of the A350 are really heavy.

Cargofacts provides a direct statement from Airbus about the payload/range:
The Toulouse-based planemaker confirmed to Cargo Facts that the A350F will have a maximum structural capacity of 109 tonnes at 4,700 nautical miles


https://cargofacts.com/allposts/business/strategy/airbus-enters-large-widebody-freighter-arena-with-109t-a350f/amp/
 
JonesNL
Posts: 665
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:35 am

tomcat wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Revelation wrote:
A350 specs detailed:

• Based on 319t A350-1000, but shorted five frames, all ahead of the wing
• 6.9m longer than 777F which lets it have 10% greater volume (695 m3 vs 633 m3)
• Payload of 109t is 4.5% more than 777F
• Payload density 9.8 lb/ft3 vs 10.2 ft/3 for 777F

Very nice specs, should make for an interesting product!

Some verbiage about why they think A332F failed and A350F won't:


Also, a projection that 77XF won't see EIS till 2029, which IMO sounds implausible.

Ref: https://leehamnews.com/2021/11/11/airbu ... more-37783


Interesting article (has numbers so I'm happy).

Based on my estimates this gives the A35F an empty weight of ~125t :shock: a 234t MZFW and a MZFW range of ~5300nm.
I calculated the length as 70.6m approximately.
I think there was some confusion in the article about the payloads of the current A350 as it stated 63t for the A35k and I would expect that from the A359.

Fred


The empty weight seems really low. LNA announces it 30t lighter than the A351 and 20t lighter than the 777F (which is smaller than the A350F but is sized for a higher MTOW though). Also, per Wikipedia, the 777F has a 22.7t lower empty weight than the 77W while being 10m (of aluminum tube) shorter than the latter. The 30t weight saving of the A350F from an initially lighter structure is mind boggling. I guess the cabin furniture of the A350 are really heavy.

Cargofacts provides a direct statement from Airbus about the payload/range:
The Toulouse-based planemaker confirmed to Cargo Facts that the A350F will have a maximum structural capacity of 109 tonnes at 4,700 nautical miles


https://cargofacts.com/allposts/business/strategy/airbus-enters-large-widebody-freighter-arena-with-109t-a350f/amp/


We can assume the 777xf to be heavier than the 777f. As such the OEW delta will be even bigger than 20t. I wonder if the newer engines of the 777xf can compensate for all that extra weight…
 
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Taxi645
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:11 am

Could someone knowledgeable expand on the fact that the airframe is only shortened in front of the wings "so the centre of gravity is kept in an optimal place for the freighter". How is this different from a passenger model where it would be shortened for and aft? Is it to do with the weight of doors or lack of weighty equipment of the passenger model in certain places?
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4496
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:37 am

JonesNL wrote:
tomcat wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:

Interesting article (has numbers so I'm happy).

Based on my estimates this gives the A35F an empty weight of ~125t :shock: a 234t MZFW and a MZFW range of ~5300nm.
I calculated the length as 70.6m approximately.
I think there was some confusion in the article about the payloads of the current A350 as it stated 63t for the A35k and I would expect that from the A359.

Fred


The empty weight seems really low. LNA announces it 30t lighter than the A351 and 20t lighter than the 777F (which is smaller than the A350F but is sized for a higher MTOW though). Also, per Wikipedia, the 777F has a 22.7t lower empty weight than the 77W while being 10m (of aluminum tube) shorter than the latter. The 30t weight saving of the A350F from an initially lighter structure is mind boggling. I guess the cabin furniture of the A350 are really heavy.

Cargofacts provides a direct statement from Airbus about the payload/range:
The Toulouse-based planemaker confirmed to Cargo Facts that the A350F will have a maximum structural capacity of 109 tonnes at 4,700 nautical miles


https://cargofacts.com/allposts/business/strategy/airbus-enters-large-widebody-freighter-arena-with-109t-a350f/amp/


We can assume the 777xf to be heavier than the 777f. As such the OEW delta will be even bigger than 20t. I wonder if the newer engines of the 777xf can compensate for all that extra weight…


What I find interesting is that we would expect a significant weight saving (all those seats and galleys and window holes weigh more than cargo handling system) but that doesn't appear to be the case on the 777F. We know that there is certain limitations on the floor of the pax 777s in terms of maximum density and is the A350 light or is 777F actually heavy (it appears not to lose weight compared to the 77L?). Boeing may be able to get similar weight savings on the 777XF as Airbus have on the A350F.

in terms of the cargo facts article (no way I'm paying for a subscription) but I would wager that if, what the article says is true then it is most likely that the weight estimate or statement from Leeham is wrong. It is not really possible to have the external geometry identical to the A35k then shrink the fuselage and end up with a worse specific range, it could only be empty weight assumptions making that difference.

Taxi645 wrote:
Could someone knowledgeable expand on the fact that the airframe is only shortened in front of the wings "so the centre of gravity is kept in an optimal place for the freighter". How is this different from a passenger model where it would be shortened for and aft? Is it to do with the weight of doors or lack of weighty equipment of the passenger model in certain places?


When a plane flies it needs the centre of pressure behind the centre of gravity so that it is statically stable (if it deviates from its vertical path the tendency is to self correct, this is why an arrow or dart has big flights at the back), this is normally a requirement of certification. When the centre of gravity is in front of the centre of pressure however then without intervention the aircraft will tend to nose over (the aicraft will effectivly pivot around the centre of gravity and the resulting aerodynamic forces are greater behind meaning not balanced. To have both the centre of pressure behind the centre of gravity and the overall moment around the centre of gravity being net 0 then there must be a downward force acting (this is what the horizontal tail produces in flight). When the horizontal tail produces this downward 'lift' then it creates an induced drag in the same way as the wing does. If one can minimise the resulting moment by the centre of lift around the centre of gravity then the drag caused by the tail lift is reduced. Two ways of doing this is by moving the centre of gravity and moving the centre of pressure, in this case the centre of pressure will move slightly but when loaded the centre of gravity will move significantly, especially when loaded.

It is more fuel efficient to have the two centres close to each other and in the freighter I would wager that the centre of gravity is much easier to control as the variation on what is going to be in there then on Pax versions (a freighter is a blank canvas every time whereas the PAX version can have all sorts of seating arrangements that remain static). If you are out of GoG limits on the freighter version you can pack it differently, its much more difficult to do that on a pax plane.

Fred
 
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Taxi645
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:37 pm

flipdewaf wrote:

Taxi645 wrote:
Could someone knowledgeable expand on the fact that the airframe is only shortened in front of the wings "so the centre of gravity is kept in an optimal place for the freighter". How is this different from a passenger model where it would be shortened for and aft? Is it to do with the weight of doors or lack of weighty equipment of the passenger model in certain places?


When a plane flies it needs the centre of pressure behind the centre of gravity so that it is statically stable (if it deviates from its vertical path the tendency is to self correct, this is why an arrow or dart has big flights at the back), this is normally a requirement of certification. When the centre of gravity is in front of the centre of pressure however then without intervention the aircraft will tend to nose over (the aicraft will effectivly pivot around the centre of gravity and the resulting aerodynamic forces are greater behind meaning not balanced. To have both the centre of pressure behind the centre of gravity and the overall moment around the centre of gravity being net 0 then there must be a downward force acting (this is what the horizontal tail produces in flight). When the horizontal tail produces this downward 'lift' then it creates an induced drag in the same way as the wing does. If one can minimise the resulting moment by the centre of lift around the centre of gravity then the drag caused by the tail lift is reduced. Two ways of doing this is by moving the centre of gravity and moving the centre of pressure, in this case the centre of pressure will move slightly but when loaded the centre of gravity will move significantly, especially when loaded.

It is more fuel efficient to have the two centres close to each other and in the freighter I would wager that the centre of gravity is much easier to control as the variation on what is going to be in there then on Pax versions (a freighter is a blank canvas every time whereas the PAX version can have all sorts of seating arrangements that remain static). If you are out of GoG limits on the freighter version you can pack it differently, its much more difficult to do that on a pax plane.

Fred


Thank you once again, very clear and understandable. :thumbsup:
 
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william
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:19 pm

Image

Figure 2. The A350F (violet) compared with the 777F (yellow). Source: Leeham Co.

https://leehamnews.com/2021/11/11/airbu ... /#comments
 
tomcat
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:11 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
tomcat wrote:

The empty weight seems really low. LNA announces it 30t lighter than the A351 and 20t lighter than the 777F (which is smaller than the A350F but is sized for a higher MTOW though). Also, per Wikipedia, the 777F has a 22.7t lower empty weight than the 77W while being 10m (of aluminum tube) shorter than the latter. The 30t weight saving of the A350F from an initially lighter structure is mind boggling. I guess the cabin furniture of the A350 are really heavy.

Cargofacts provides a direct statement from Airbus about the payload/range:


https://cargofacts.com/allposts/business/strategy/airbus-enters-large-widebody-freighter-arena-with-109t-a350f/amp/


We can assume the 777xf to be heavier than the 777f. As such the OEW delta will be even bigger than 20t. I wonder if the newer engines of the 777xf can compensate for all that extra weight…


What I find interesting is that we would expect a significant weight saving (all those seats and galleys and window holes weigh more than cargo handling system) but that doesn't appear to be the case on the 777F. We know that there is certain limitations on the floor of the pax 777s in terms of maximum density and is the A350 light or is 777F actually heavy (it appears not to lose weight compared to the 77L?). Boeing may be able to get similar weight savings on the 777XF as Airbus have on the A350F.

in terms of the cargo facts article (no way I'm paying for a subscription) but I would wager that if, what the article says is true then it is most likely that the weight estimate or statement from Leeham is wrong. It is not really possible to have the external geometry identical to the A35k then shrink the fuselage and end up with a worse specific range, it could only be empty weight assumptions making that difference.
Fred


According to Wiki, the A351 MEW is 129 tonnes. To get from that weight to the OEW of the A359F, we need to remove weight to take into account the 5 frames shorter fuselage and the weight saved from cancelling most of the passenger windows and some passenger doors then add weight to cover (at least) the addition of the extra large cargo door, the reinforcement of the main deck floor, the cargo equipment on the main deck and any other structural reinforcement which may be required. Provided that the Wiki figures are correct, it looks challenging to me achieve an OEW of 125 tonnes for the A350F. Circa 130t would appear more realistic to me and maybe more indeed based on the 109t/4700nm report from Cargo Facts (that part of the article is accessible for free by the way).
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:48 pm

tomcat wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
JonesNL wrote:

We can assume the 777xf to be heavier than the 777f. As such the OEW delta will be even bigger than 20t. I wonder if the newer engines of the 777xf can compensate for all that extra weight…


What I find interesting is that we would expect a significant weight saving (all those seats and galleys and window holes weigh more than cargo handling system) but that doesn't appear to be the case on the 777F. We know that there is certain limitations on the floor of the pax 777s in terms of maximum density and is the A350 light or is 777F actually heavy (it appears not to lose weight compared to the 77L?). Boeing may be able to get similar weight savings on the 777XF as Airbus have on the A350F.

in terms of the cargo facts article (no way I'm paying for a subscription) but I would wager that if, what the article says is true then it is most likely that the weight estimate or statement from Leeham is wrong. It is not really possible to have the external geometry identical to the A35k then shrink the fuselage and end up with a worse specific range, it could only be empty weight assumptions making that difference.
Fred


According to Wiki, the A351 MEW is 129 tonnes. To get from that weight to the OEW of the A359F, we need to remove weight to take into account the 5 frames shorter fuselage and the weight saved from cancelling most of the passenger windows and some passenger doors then add weight to cover (at least) the addition of the extra large cargo door, the reinforcement of the main deck floor, the cargo equipment on the main deck and any other structural reinforcement which may be required. Provided that the Wiki figures are correct, it looks challenging to me achieve an OEW of 125 tonnes for the A350F. Circa 130t would appear more realistic to me and maybe more indeed based on the 109t/4700nm report from Cargo Facts (that part of the article is accessible for free by the way).


My gut is to agree with you, my estimates put the weight at 124.6t but this is with all op items and furnishings removed and I would expect there to be some cargo handling hardware to be added to this so 130 feels reasonable.

Fred
 
JoergAtADN
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:02 pm

The product page for the A350F is online, with some of the data reported by Leeham already: https://aircraft.airbus.com/en/aircraft ... ters/a350f
And with pictures of this aircraft.
 
Opus99
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:06 pm

JoergAtADN wrote:
The product page for the A350F is online, with some of the data reported by Leeham already: https://aircraft.airbus.com/en/aircraft ... ters/a350f
And with pictures of this aircraft.

If says +3 tonnes of the 777F and the 777F is 13 tonnes heavier
 
tomcat
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:38 pm

Opus99 wrote:
JoergAtADN wrote:
The product page for the A350F is online, with some of the data reported by Leeham already: https://aircraft.airbus.com/en/aircraft ... ters/a350f
And with pictures of this aircraft.

If says +3 tonnes of the 777F and the 777F is 13 tonnes heavier


So it appears that LNA has compared the MEW of the A350F with the OEW of the 777F when stating that the A350F was 20t lighter than the 777F. Or they got the wrong information. Or they are just making up numbers.

Regarding the Airbus page for the A350F, they mention +3t payload vs the 777F but avoid stating at which range this max payload is valid. They just state "the A350F delivers more payload, more range and more volume compared to the 777F".
 
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keesje
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:21 pm

It seems Airbus campaign is aimed at 777F operators..

Image
airbus.com
 
texl1649
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:38 pm

Well if they are pitching it vs. the 77F isn’t that…a tad myopic? Sure, Boeing will happily sell more 77F’s for a few years, but that is not really the yard stick future campaigns will be using. The first 77F was delivered in 2009 I believe, using engines from…about a decade earlier.

I’d hope an aircraft launched in, err, 2006 (delivered in 2014?) would be able to offer lower fuel burn.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:48 pm

I continue to fail to see why any responsible company would pay for new A350s when hundreds of A330s and 777s are available for conversion at probably 1/4th the price per plane. The fuel savings will never come close to making up the difference
 
tomcat
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:08 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Well if they are pitching it vs. the 77F isn’t that…a tad myopic? Sure, Boeing will happily sell more 77F’s for a few years, but that is not really the yard stick future campaigns will be using. The first 77F was delivered in 2009 I believe, using engines from…about a decade earlier.

I’d hope an aircraft launched in, err, 2006 (delivered in 2014?) would be able to offer lower fuel burn.


In absence of a newer competitor at Boeing, what else could Airbus do?
 
texl1649
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:32 pm

tomcat wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
Well if they are pitching it vs. the 77F isn’t that…a tad myopic? Sure, Boeing will happily sell more 77F’s for a few years, but that is not really the yard stick future campaigns will be using. The first 77F was delivered in 2009 I believe, using engines from…about a decade earlier.

I’d hope an aircraft launched in, err, 2006 (delivered in 2014?) would be able to offer lower fuel burn.


In absence of a newer competitor at Boeing, what else could Airbus do?


It didn’t work real well for the A350mk1, A346, etc., but maybe they have a plan. It did work for the A320NEO, after all, timing being everything. However, they don’t face any near term threat of an all new 777 replacement aircraft. But, really, PowerPoint slides in the public domain don’t actually sell large commercial aircraft, nor do they constitute a cohesive long term product strategy, any more than armchair analysts do.
 
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:51 pm

SteelChair wrote:
I continue to fail to see why any responsible company would pay for new A350s when hundreds of A330s and 777s are available for conversion at probably 1/4th the price per plane. The fuel savings will never come close to making up the difference


Yet responsible companies are still buying new-build 777Fs - 38 so far this year. Are they mad?
 
SteelChair
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:49 am

scbriml wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I continue to fail to see why any responsible company would pay for new A350s when hundreds of A330s and 777s are available for conversion at probably 1/4th the price per plane. The fuel savings will never come close to making up the difference


Yet responsible companies are still buying new-build 777Fs - 38 so far this year. Are they mad?


Wiki shows 22 777F deliveries in 2020 (a massive year for air cargo given C19) and only 14 delivered this year. Given the booming demand, one would think that many more orders would have been forthcoming this year but that doesn't appear to have happened.

The 777 began production the early 90s, production costs are now well amortized. Only the 200 is available as a new build from Boeing, and the 772 is 10 feet shorter than an A359. We don't know prices, but isn't it safe to assume that the smaller, older, airplane would be much cheaper than a larger, newer, one? Not a single 300F has ever been offered or bought. Not a single 777X (a much more appropriate comparison to the A350) has been ordered. If Boeing as the established cargo builder can't sell 777XF's, what makes anyone think the cargo laggard Airbus can sell A350F's in any meaningful number?

So no, I wouldn't say cargo carriers are "mad" to take a small number of smaller, cheaper, airplanes from a hot production line than the larger, newer, paper A350F in a time of unprecedented demand.

My guess is that an A350 would be close to twice as expensive as a 777F. The fuel savings would probably never come close to making up the price difference. Mho - my back of the napkin math shows that an A350F would save $3.5M* a year vis a vis a 777F.....chump change compared to an extra $100M purchase price. And you have to pay the extra price up front, the fuel savings take years to accumulate. Time value of money. Slam dunk to 777 or A330 cargo conversions going forward.

The cargo carriers seem much more disciplined than the passenger carriers with regard to aircraft purchases, much less susceptible to shiny jet syndrome.

*Math: ((3,000 lbs/hr x 4,000 hr)/yr/6.7) x $2/gal = $3.582M/yr
 
majano
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:18 am

tomcat wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
JoergAtADN wrote:
The product page for the A350F is online, with some of the data reported by Leeham already: https://aircraft.airbus.com/en/aircraft ... ters/a350f
And with pictures of this aircraft.

If says +3 tonnes of the 777F and the 777F is 13 tonnes heavier


So it appears that LNA has compared the MEW of the A350F with the OEW of the 777F when stating that the A350F was 20t lighter than the 777F. Or they got the wrong information. Or they are just making up numbers.

Regarding the Airbus page for the A350F, they mention +3t payload vs the 777F but avoid stating at which range this max payload is valid. They just state "the A350F delivers more payload, more range and more volume compared to the 777F".

The saving of 28T relates to TOW. OEW saving is referred to as 13T. All in the Airbus press release.
 
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Taxi645
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:37 am

SteelChair wrote:
scbriml wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I continue to fail to see why any responsible company would pay for new A350s when hundreds of A330s and 777s are available for conversion at probably 1/4th the price per plane. The fuel savings will never come close to making up the difference


Yet responsible companies are still buying new-build 777Fs - 38 so far this year. Are they mad?


Wiki shows 22 777F deliveries in 2020 (a massive year for air cargo given C19) and only 14 delivered this year. Given the booming demand, one would think that many more orders would have been forthcoming this year but that doesn't appear to have happened.

The 777 began production the early 90s, production costs are now well amortized. Only the 200 is available as a new build from Boeing, and the 772 is 10 feet shorter than an A359. We don't know prices, but isn't it safe to assume that the smaller, older, airplane would be much cheaper than a larger, newer, one? Not a single 300F has ever been offered or bought. Not a single 777X (a much more appropriate comparison to the A350) has been ordered. If Boeing as the established cargo builder can't sell 777XF's, what makes anyone think the cargo laggard Airbus can sell A350F's in any meaningful number?

So no, I wouldn't say cargo carriers are "mad" to take a small number of smaller, cheaper, airplanes from a hot production line than the larger, newer, paper A350F in a time of unprecedented demand.

My guess is that an A350 would be close to twice as expensive as a 777F. The fuel savings would probably never come close to making up the price difference. Mho - my back of the napkin math shows that an A350F would save $3.5M* a year vis a vis a 777F.....chump change compared to an extra $100M purchase price. And you have to pay the extra price up front, the fuel savings take years to accumulate. Time value of money. Slam dunk to 777 or A330 cargo conversions going forward.

The cargo carriers seem much more disciplined than the passenger carriers with regard to aircraft purchases, much less susceptible to shiny jet syndrome.

*Math: ((3,000 lbs/hr x 4,000 hr)/yr/6.7) x $2/gal = $3.582M/yr


Well the answer to that probably is that Airbus is willing to accept only a limited number of sales till 2028, with the prospect of accelerated sales from 2028 where the alternatives you mention are no longer viable as new sales. This way they will try to cut the ground from under the 777XF's feet by having a modern in service freigther already in place.

I see it as an opportunistic move by Airbus.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:34 am

SteelChair wrote:
I continue to fail to see why any responsible company would pay for new A350s when hundreds of A330s and 777s are available for conversion at probably 1/4th the price per plane. The fuel savings will never come close to making up the difference
available life in the airframe, lower fuel burn, long term availability of maintenance expertise and systems, environmental constraints. If you buy a second hand jet and convert you have to amortise not only the cost of the airframe but also the conversion over a shorter expected life.

Why were 787s being sold when 777 were going to scrappers? Why would anyone pay for any new jets when old ones are always going to the scrappers?


SteelChair wrote:
scbriml wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I continue to fail to see why any responsible company would pay for new A350s when hundreds of A330s and 777s are available for conversion at probably 1/4th the price per plane. The fuel savings will never come close to making up the difference


Yet responsible companies are still buying new-build 777Fs - 38 so far this year. Are they mad?


Wiki shows 22 777F deliveries in 2020 (a massive year for air cargo given C19) and only 14 delivered this year. Given the booming demand, one would think that many more orders would have been forthcoming this year but that doesn't appear to have happened.

The 777 began production the early 90s, production costs are now well amortized. Only the 200 is available as a new build from Boeing, and the 772 is 10 feet shorter than an A359. We don't know prices, but isn't it safe to assume that the smaller, older, airplane would be much cheaper than a larger, newer, one? Not a single 300F has ever been offered or bought. Not a single 777X (a much more appropriate comparison to the A350) has been ordered. If Boeing as the established cargo builder can't sell 777XF's, what makes anyone think the cargo laggard Airbus can sell A350F's in any meaningful number?

Cargo laggard? Your choice of derogatory words betrays your intentions.

I would say there is a good chance Boeing could offer the 777F cheaper in the past but to assume is a very silly thing to do.

SteelChair wrote:

So no, I wouldn't say cargo carriers are "mad" to take a small number of smaller, cheaper, airplanes from a hot production line than the larger, newer, paper A350F in a time of unprecedented demand.

Hot production line? What rates is this hot production line going at? What’s the a350 at? And why is the fact that it’s larger a problem? The 77F is heavier, that’s a much more expensive operational problem.

SteelChair wrote:

My guess is that an A350 would be close to twice as expensive as a 777F.

Why would you assume half the price? Evidence of recent sales suggests the A35K sold for about 170m and the end of line77W for 100m. One of the limitations of the A35k is the relatively low volume production of the aircraft specific parts, the fact that the A35F shares many parts with the A35k would reduce the costs.

SteelChair wrote:
The fuel savings would probably never come close to making up the price difference. Mho - my back of the napkin math shows that an A350F would save $3.5M* a year vis a vis a 777F.....chump change compared to an extra $100M purchase price. And you have to pay the extra price up front, the fuel savings take years to accumulate. Time value of money. Slam dunk to 777 or A330 cargo conversions going forward.

I don’t know, What’s the residual value of a150m A35F in 12 years vs a 100m ERSF in 12 years? The time value of time of course being that you have a jet with high fuel burn depreciating in value faster.

My calcs put it closer to 5m/yr difference 3800lbshr^-1

SteelChair wrote:

The cargo carriers seem much more disciplined than the passenger carriers with regard to aircraft purchases, much less susceptible to shiny jet syndrome.

*Math: ((3,000 lbs/hr x 4,000 hr)/yr/6.7) x $2/gal = $3.582M/yr


Shiny jet syndrome? Is the maths of increased utilisation favouring higher price and lower fuel burn (as demonstrated by passenger carrying operations as opposed to cargo) too hard to figure? It’s even evident in the LCC vs legacy business models. ‘Shiny jet sydrome’ = actually modelling DOCs

Fred


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tomcat
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:39 am

majano wrote:
tomcat wrote:

So it appears that LNA has compared the MEW of the A350F with the OEW of the 777F when stating that the A350F was 20t lighter than the 777F. Or they got the wrong information. Or they are just making up numbers.

Regarding the Airbus page for the A350F, they mention +3t payload vs the 777F but avoid stating at which range this max payload is valid. They just state "the A350F delivers more payload, more range and more volume compared to the 777F".

The saving of 28T relates to TOW. OEW saving is referred to as 13T. All in the Airbus press release.


Sure but I was referring to the LNA article published just a day before and stating that the A350F was 20t lighter than the 777F. It appears that the OEW delta is actually not 20t but only 13t.
 
BHRN
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:35 pm

Revelation wrote:
From what I've learned over the years FX has drawn the MD-11s closer to home since it's hard to get MX on MD-11s worldwide. This means some probably are under-utilized, so replacement with 777XF/A350F would be expensive over-kill.


That might have been the original plan but FX has significantly increased intercontinental flying with MD11s over the last year and a lot of these new routes are pushing the payload-range limits.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:51 pm

flipdewaf wrote:


SteelChair wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Yet responsible companies are still buying new-build 777Fs - 38 so far this year. Are they mad?


Wiki shows 22 777F deliveries in 2020 (a massive year for air cargo given C19) and only 14 delivered this year. Given the booming demand, one would think that many more orders would have been forthcoming this year but that doesn't appear to have happened.

The 777 began production the early 90s, production costs are now well amortized. Only the 200 is available as a new build from Boeing, and the 772 is 10 feet shorter than an A359. We don't know prices, but isn't it safe to assume that the smaller, older, airplane would be much cheaper than a larger, newer, one? Not a single 300F has ever been offered or bought. Not a single 777X (a much more appropriate comparison to the A350) has been ordered. If Boeing as the established cargo builder can't sell 777XF's, what makes anyone think the cargo laggard Airbus can sell A350F's in any meaningful number?

Cargo laggard? Your choice of derogatory words betrays your intentions.



You're completely wrong. I've posted many times that Boeing is floundering and Airbus is the preeminent commercial aircraft builder. But the one area where Airbus lags is in freighters
 
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LoganTheBogan
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:31 am

Air Lease expected to be announced as one of or the launch customer(s) for the A350F:

https://twitter.com/theaircurrent/statu ... 52522?s=20
 
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keesje
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:35 pm

Korean and Etihad are also mentioned as potential A350F customers.

For airliners it's the usual a trade-off.

Launching discounts & first to have the latest, greatest or wait a bit to avoid risks.

In the current market airlines also don't want to end up behind everybody else..

Did they do there own review of 777XF opportunity & risk ? Of course..
 
DCA350
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:57 pm

keesje wrote:
Korean and Etihad are also mentioned as potential A350F customers.

For airliners it's the usual a trade-off.

Launching discounts & first to have the latest, greatest or wait a bit to avoid risks.

In the current market airlines also don't want to end up behind everybody else..

Did they do there own review of 777XF opportunity & risk ? Of course..


Korean would be huge.. I don't think they have any WBs with RR engines.. An A350F would give AB an excellent chance at placing A350 pax versions.. Their 777 should be coming up on retirement, I believe Korean law states pax planes can't be older than 20 years or something like that, unless it's been changed..
 
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PM
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:01 pm

DCA350 wrote:
Korean would be huge.. I don't think they have any WBs with RR engines..

They will when they complete the take-over of Asiana.
 
tomcat
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Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:22 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
tomcat wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:

What I find interesting is that we would expect a significant weight saving (all those seats and galleys and window holes weigh more than cargo handling system) but that doesn't appear to be the case on the 777F. We know that there is certain limitations on the floor of the pax 777s in terms of maximum density and is the A350 light or is 777F actually heavy (it appears not to lose weight compared to the 77L?). Boeing may be able to get similar weight savings on the 777XF as Airbus have on the A350F.

in terms of the cargo facts article (no way I'm paying for a subscription) but I would wager that if, what the article says is true then it is most likely that the weight estimate or statement from Leeham is wrong. It is not really possible to have the external geometry identical to the A35k then shrink the fuselage and end up with a worse specific range, it could only be empty weight assumptions making that difference.
Fred


According to Wiki, the A351 MEW is 129 tonnes. To get from that weight to the OEW of the A359F, we need to remove weight to take into account the 5 frames shorter fuselage and the weight saved from cancelling most of the passenger windows and some passenger doors then add weight to cover (at least) the addition of the extra large cargo door, the reinforcement of the main deck floor, the cargo equipment on the main deck and any other structural reinforcement which may be required. Provided that the Wiki figures are correct, it looks challenging to me achieve an OEW of 125 tonnes for the A350F. Circa 130t would appear more realistic to me and maybe more indeed based on the 109t/4700nm report from Cargo Facts (that part of the article is accessible for free by the way).


My gut is to agree with you, my estimates put the weight at 124.6t but this is with all op items and furnishings removed and I would expect there to be some cargo handling hardware to be added to this so 130 feels reasonable.

Fred


Now that Airbus has clarified the figures, we can estimate the A350F MZFW to be circa 240t. This is 17t higher than the highest MZFW (223t) available for the A351. I'd say this 240t MZFW offers a very good basis for a stretch from the A351.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 27445
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:49 pm

JoergAtADN wrote:
The product page for the A350F is online, with some of the data reported by Leeham already: https://aircraft.airbus.com/en/aircraft ... ters/a350f
And with pictures of this aircraft.

Hurrah, it only took four months after "launch" to be able to give some numbers for the plane and produce a photoshop drawing of it and put together a web page.

SteelChair wrote:
I continue to fail to see why any responsible company would pay for new A350s when hundreds of A330s and 777s are available for conversion at probably 1/4th the price per plane. The fuel savings will never come close to making up the difference

This has been mentioned several times over the 30+ pages of this thread.

Also, on page 1 of this thread it was mentioned that the program would need 50 orders to be viable, yet here we are months later, with maybe an order from one leasing firm, presumably not for 50 airframes.

LoganTheBogan wrote:
Air Lease expected to be announced as one of or the launch customer(s) for the A350F:

https://twitter.com/theaircurrent/statu ... 52522?s=20

Yes, their order is "teed up" and "nearing an announcement".

keesje wrote:
Korean and Etihad are also mentioned as potential A350F customers.

Did they do there own review of 777XF opportunity & risk ? Of course..

They did, potentially...

Funny we don't mention that potential EY and KE orders are said to involve conversions of orders of other Airbus models (EY converting A320neo, KE converting A350), yet this gets mentioned early and often for 77XF potential orders.
 
Opus99
Topic Author
Posts: 3178
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Updated: Reuters: Airbus launches A350 freighter

Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:52 pm

Revelation wrote:
JoergAtADN wrote:
The product page for the A350F is online, with some of the data reported by Leeham already: https://aircraft.airbus.com/en/aircraft ... ters/a350f
And with pictures of this aircraft.

Hurrah, it only took four months after "launch" to be able to give some numbers for the plane and produce a photoshop drawing of it and put together a web page.

SteelChair wrote:
I continue to fail to see why any responsible company would pay for new A350s when hundreds of A330s and 777s are available for conversion at probably 1/4th the price per plane. The fuel savings will never come close to making up the difference

This has been mentioned several times over the 30+ pages of this thread.

Also, on page 1 of this thread it was mentioned that the program would need 50 orders to be viable, yet here we are months later, with maybe an order from one leasing firm, presumably not for 50 airframes.

LoganTheBogan wrote:
Air Lease expected to be announced as one of or the launch customer(s) for the A350F:

https://twitter.com/theaircurrent/statu ... 52522?s=20

Yes, their order is "teed up" and "nearing an announcement".

keesje wrote:
Korean and Etihad are also mentioned as potential A350F customers.

Did they do there own review of 777XF opportunity & risk ? Of course..

They did, potentially...

Funny we don't mention that potential EY and KE orders are said to involve conversions of orders of other Airbus models (EY converting A320neo, KE converting A350), yet this gets mentioned early and often for 77XF potential orders.

EY is likely it seems. KE is potentially, no where near certain. They are talking. As Boeing is also talking

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