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fcogafa
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Re: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:46 pm

A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030
https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transp ... 51.article

Rolls-Royce has secured an exclusive position on the Airbus A350-900 for the remainder of the decade, ruling out any immediate prospect of a rival engine manufacturer entering the market for twinjet.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:23 pm

fcogafa wrote:
A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030
https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transp ... 51.article

Rolls-Royce has secured an exclusive position on the Airbus A350-900 for the remainder of the decade, ruling out any immediate prospect of a rival engine manufacturer entering the market for twinjet.

Interesting to see... but was there ever any realistic threat of that happening even without a formalized exclusivity?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Re: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:43 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030
https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transp ... 51.article

Rolls-Royce has secured an exclusive position on the Airbus A350-900 for the remainder of the decade, ruling out any immediate prospect of a rival engine manufacturer entering the market for twinjet.

Interesting to see... but was there ever any realistic threat of that happening even without a formalized exclusivity?


Also why A350-900s in particular? Why does it not include the A350-1000?
 
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Re: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:06 am

ikolkyo wrote:
Also why A350-900s in particular? Why does it not include the A350-1000?

A35K already had formalized exclusivity with RR.

A359 only had it by default. Until now, GE/PW could've theoretically proposed a competing platform, if one existed.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Re: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:24 am

LAX772LR wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Also why A350-900s in particular? Why does it not include the A350-1000?

A35K already had formalized exclusivity with RR.

A359 only had it by default. Until now, GE/PW could've theoretically proposed a competing platform, if one existed.


So odd that it was done on a airframe basis instead of the whole family of aircraft
 
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Re: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:32 am

ikolkyo wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Also why A350-900s in particular? Why does it not include the A350-1000?

A35K already had formalized exclusivity with RR.

A359 only had it by default. Until now, GE/PW could've theoretically proposed a competing platform, if one existed.


So odd that it was done on a airframe basis instead of the whole family of aircraft

RR required it in agreement to beef up the TXWB for the -1000 when the variant was revamped (re:made more capable) in 2011ish.
 
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Re: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:49 am

ikolkyo wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Also why A350-900s in particular? Why does it not include the A350-1000?

A35K already had formalized exclusivity with RR.

A359 only had it by default. Until now, GE/PW could've theoretically proposed a competing platform, if one existed.

So odd that it was done on a airframe basis instead of the whole family of aircraft

How's it all that different than the 777s though?

77A, 77E, 773 open to all three engine OEMs, but both PW and GE wanted exclusivity for an engine on the 77L/77Ws. Only RR was open to competition.
As we know: GE won, and got exclusivity; whereas the other 777s were produced for a decade beyond that decision.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Re: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:00 am

LAX772LR wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
A35K already had formalized exclusivity with RR.

A359 only had it by default. Until now, GE/PW could've theoretically proposed a competing platform, if one existed.

So odd that it was done on a airframe basis instead of the whole family of aircraft

How's it all that different than the 777s though?

77A, 77E, 773 open to all three engine OEMs, but both PW and GE wanted exclusivity for an engine on the 77L/77Ws. Only RR was open to competition.
As we know: GE won, and got exclusivity; whereas the other 777s were produced for a decade beyond that decision.


The "classic" 777s and the 77W/L had different wings and obviously different engines. I honestly consider them to be 2 different generations to an extent as they also didn't co-exist for very long production wise once the newer 777s were all set.

I just found the A350 situation to be odd since it's a brand new aircraft family with multiple variants developed at the same time with the possibility of the shorter variant having multiple powerplant options while the stretch wouldn't. Something like that would just kill off one of the powerplant options which is most likely why we never saw GE actually go through with an engine offer.
 
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Re: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:14 am

ikolkyo wrote:
The "classic" 777s and the 77W/L had different wings

No they didn't....
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Re: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:09 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
LAX772LR wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
The "classic" 777s and the 77W/L had different wings

No they didn't....


Could have sworn the wing was widened a little bit for increase fuel capacity in addition to raked wingtips. Regardless the rest of my point still stands, and the newer 777s are rated much heavier weight aircraft than the initial aircraft. It’s honestly very similar to A321-200 to the A321XLR. New engines, modifications to the wing, increased weight and etc.
 
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Re: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:21 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Could have sworn the wing was widened a little bit for increase fuel capacity in addition to raked wingtips.


The span was slightly wider due to the raked wingtips and it was strengthened to handle the significantly higher operating weights and increased useable internal fuel volume, but it was still fundamentally the same wing as the original models.
 
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Re: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:26 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
The "classic" 777s and the 77W/L had different wings

No they didn't....


Could have sworn the wing was widened a little bit for increase fuel capacity in addition to raked wingtips.

Nope. Same wing, just with interior strengthening, slightly outboard-extended main fuel tank capacity, and rakes added to the tips.

You're probably confusing it with the A340-500/600, which had a "geometrical wedge" added to the extant A330/A340 wing.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:59 pm

Please keep this thread on topic.
 
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:21 pm

So no A350neo before 2030 then?
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:30 pm

I think Airbus will open it up after 2030
 
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:31 pm

frigatebird wrote:
So no A350neo before 2030 then?


Not necessarily. They could certainly neo it with a new Trent model.

That said, with the widebody market in the gutter, I doubt Airbus will be looking to launch a a350neo any time soon.
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:32 pm

Opus99 wrote:
I think Airbus will open it up after 2030


Why?

I'm sure they'll look around, but if they're happy with RR and RR comes up with a new engine that is on par or better than the competition, they'd stay.
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:40 pm

Antarius wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
I think Airbus will open it up after 2030


Why?

I'm sure they'll look around, but if they're happy with RR and RR comes up with a new engine that is on par or better than the competition, they'd stay.

I think just to give customer’s choice might help bring in more business. RR will remain the mainstay I think. But GE might have to bring their match to the ultrafan
 
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:44 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
I think Airbus will open it up after 2030


Why?

I'm sure they'll look around, but if they're happy with RR and RR comes up with a new engine that is on par or better than the competition, they'd stay.

I think just to give customer’s choice might help bring in more business. RR will remain the mainstay I think. But GE might have to bring their match to the ultrafan


It could, but at the same time having exclusivity means you can push for more development as the engine maker has better revenue guarantees for their expenditure. The 77W was a huge success with GE exclusivity, for example.
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:48 pm

Antarius wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Why?

I'm sure they'll look around, but if they're happy with RR and RR comes up with a new engine that is on par or better than the competition, they'd stay.

I think just to give customer’s choice might help bring in more business. RR will remain the mainstay I think. But GE might have to bring their match to the ultrafan


It could, but at the same time having exclusivity means you can push for more development as the engine maker has better revenue guarantees for their expenditure. The 77W was a huge success with GE exclusivity, for example.

Good point, Single source is probably the most likely outcome, especially ultrafan will be on the horizon at that point
 
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:40 pm

frigatebird wrote:
So no A350neo before 2030 then?

That's Reuters's take on it:

The decision effectively postpones any re-engining of the A350 to next decade while giving Rolls more clarity as it tackles the costly UltraFan development, industry sources said.

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-roll ... SKBN2B32A5

Putting the puzzle pieces together, Airbus giving RR exclusive rights through 2030 means there will be no competitive pressure to force RR to have to fund UltraFan production till 2030.

This is all a reaction to a 2019 report ( https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/ ... al-a350neo ) that Airbus and GE were talking about engines for A350.

Reuters also provides some important context:

Thursday’s deal - disclosed as Rolls plunged to a record 4 billion pound ($5.6 billion) 2020 loss - throws backing to the troubled engine maker and counters speculation that GE could enter the programme any time soon.

FG wrote:

Rolls-Royce chief executive Warren East, speaking during a full-year briefing on 11 March, said there had been a “huge amount of speculation” about a year ago centred on whether General Electric might offer an engine for the A350.

“We’re delighted to put that speculation to bed for the remainder of this decade,” he says.

IMO RR was incredibly worried about GE potentially encroaching on its turf, and also would struggle to fund the required reaction of putting Ultrafan into production. Airbus threw them a bone, IMO.
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Re: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:43 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Interesting to see... but was there ever any realistic threat of that happening even without a formalized exclusivity?


I don't really think there was, but perhaps customers interested in operating fleets with the A359 and 777X had been talking to Airbus and GE about putting a GE9X derivative on the A359?

We know GE and Airbus couldn't come to an agreement which would put the GEnx on the A350 once it was upsized into the XWB, particularly the -1000. That's basically why RR ended up with the monopoly by default, but Airbus probably would have liked to offer a choice of engines as the 787 does.
 
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:14 am

Revelation wrote:
IMO RR was incredibly worried about GE potentially encroaching on its turf, and also would struggle to fund the required reaction of putting Ultrafan into production. Airbus threw them a bone, IMO.

Or Airbus was more worried their engine partner might not exist. Covid has delayed the logical step of Airbus SE acquiring part or all of the RR engine aerospace business. By 2030 it should have happened. This announcement buys some time.
 
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:20 am

smartplane wrote:
Revelation wrote:
IMO RR was incredibly worried about GE potentially encroaching on its turf, and also would struggle to fund the required reaction of putting Ultrafan into production. Airbus threw them a bone, IMO.

Or Airbus was more worried their engine partner might not exist. Covid has delayed the logical step of Airbus SE acquiring part or all of the RR engine aerospace business. By 2030 it should have happened. This announcement buys some time.


Why would Airbus want to buy RR which has additional High development cost that airbus would have to cover. It could affect their ability to do A220/A320/A330/A350 upgrades due to cash flow.
 
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:24 am

My theoretical question is, would this exclusivity cause concern of corruption and investigation on back room deals in near future by US, British or European authorities?
 
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:23 pm

rbavfan wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Revelation wrote:
IMO RR was incredibly worried about GE potentially encroaching on its turf, and also would struggle to fund the required reaction of putting Ultrafan into production. Airbus threw them a bone, IMO.

Or Airbus was more worried their engine partner might not exist. Covid has delayed the logical step of Airbus SE acquiring part or all of the RR engine aerospace business. By 2030 it should have happened. This announcement buys some time.

Why would Airbus want to buy RR which has additional High development cost that airbus would have to cover. It could affect their ability to do A220/A320/A330/A350 upgrades due to cash flow.

It'd be a gamble, but all investments involve risk. Given the mantra to buy low and sell high, RR surely is at a low point, yet if they truly have turned the tide on their T1000 problems and we see a reasonably quick covid recovery they could be in for a strong run of form. RR has closed a lot of facilities and have shed a lot of employees so their costs are on the low side. Also they say they have UltraFan ready to go into a test campaign which eventually could create a lot of future revenue for the company.

Like it or not, the widebody market has been a de-facto duopoly between RR and GE since PW stepped all over their dingus on the 777 program.

I'm sure someone at Airbus is doing their sums to see if it would make sense to acquire RR.

I'm not so sure the politics would work out well though.
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:29 pm

Revelation wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Or Airbus was more worried their engine partner might not exist. Covid has delayed the logical step of Airbus SE acquiring part or all of the RR engine aerospace business. By 2030 it should have happened. This announcement buys some time.

Why would Airbus want to buy RR which has additional High development cost that airbus would have to cover. It could affect their ability to do A220/A320/A330/A350 upgrades due to cash flow.

It'd be a gamble, but all investments involve risk. Given the mantra to buy low and sell high, RR surely is at a low point, yet if they truly have turned the tide on their T1000 problems and we see a reasonably quick covid recovery they could be in for a strong run of form. RR has closed a lot of facilities and have shed a lot of employees so their costs are on the low side. Also they say they have UltraFan ready to go into a test campaign which eventually could create a lot of future revenue for the company.

Like it or not, the widebody market has been a de-facto duopoly between RR and GE since PW stepped all over their dingus on the 777 program.

I'm sure someone at Airbus is doing their sums to see if it would make sense to acquire RR.

I'm not so sure the politics would work out well though.

There is also the question of how happy PW and GE would be about it. RR may essentially be the sole suppliers for Airbus’s wide bodies but they have nothing on the narrow bodies. Airbus may suddenly find it harder to get improvements/rate increases etc as PW/GE wouldn’t want Airbus to profit and fund a direct future competitor.
 
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:35 pm

chonetsao wrote:
My theoretical question is, would this exclusivity cause concern of corruption and investigation on back room deals in near future by US, British or European authorities?

I would think the level of concern should be similar to existing arrangements where RR and GE/CFM engines have been exclusive to A350 and B737/777 models.
Last edited by flee on Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:35 pm

Polot wrote:
There is also the question of how happy PW and GE would be about it. RR may essentially be the sole suppliers for Airbus’s wide bodies but they have nothing on the narrow bodies. Airbus may suddenly find it harder to get improvements/rate increases etc as PW/GE wouldn’t want Airbus to profit and fund a direct future competitor.

Overall I think all of the big 3 are pretty happy to sit back and try to recoup their investment on their current set of products.

RR and GE are struggling financially, and Pratt just did a big layoff.

I also agree that Airbus is largely getting what they want from RR so it's not too likely they would decide to buy them.

As above, there may have been a genuine concern they would go under, but I would think RR would fall into the UK's "too big to fail" category.

IMO it'd take an odd set of circumstances all colliding for Airbus to decide to buy RR.
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:39 pm

Revelation wrote:
Overall I think all of the big 3 are pretty happy to sit back and try to recoup their investment on their current set of products.

RR and GE are struggling financially, and Pratt just did a big layoff.

I also agree that Airbus is largely getting what they want from RR so it's not too likely they would decide to buy them.

As above, there may have been a genuine concern they would go under, but I would think RR would fall into the UK's "too big to fail" category.

IMO it'd take an odd set of circumstances all colliding for Airbus to decide to buy RR.

You are right - Airbus would be reluctant to take on more risks in these current uncertain times. I would think the only circumstance where Airbus would seriously consider taking over RR is if they got into serious financial decline that their very existence is threatened.
 
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:50 pm

flee wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
My theoretical question is, would this exclusivity cause concern of corruption and investigation on back room deals in near future by US, British or European authorities?

I would think the level of concern should be similar to existing arrangements where RR and GE/CFM engines have been exclusive to A350 and B737/777 models.


Or the thousands to millions of inter company exclusive partnerships worldwide.

Standard stuff.
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:58 pm

Antarius wrote:
flee wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
My theoretical question is, would this exclusivity cause concern of corruption and investigation on back room deals in near future by US, British or European authorities?

I would think the level of concern should be similar to existing arrangements where RR and GE/CFM engines have been exclusive to A350 and B737/777 models.


Or the thousands to millions of inter company exclusive partnerships worldwide.

Standard stuff.


No, it's not standard stuff. Jet engines is a business with very high barriers to entry (both technical and financial). Commitment to an engine family is a very high $ ticket. Jets and engines are long-lived assets. This isn't Costco deciding to sell Jell-O brand exclusively.

We don't have to look far - east or west - to find corruption in the aircraft industry because the stakes are so high. Ask AC, Garuda, or Airbus.
 
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:01 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
flee wrote:
I would think the level of concern should be similar to existing arrangements where RR and GE/CFM engines have been exclusive to A350 and B737/777 models.


Or the thousands to millions of inter company exclusive partnerships worldwide.

Standard stuff.


No, it's not standard stuff. Jet engines is a business with very high barriers to entry (both technical and financial). Commitment to an engine family is a very high $ ticket. Jets and engines are long-lived assets. This isn't Costco deciding to sell Jell-O brand exclusively.


It's not the only high value exclusive agreement that exists on earth.

Regardless, my point is there is no cause for corruption or investigation due to exclusivity alone. The technical aspects are between the parties as is the financial ramifications, but there is nothing odd about such an arrangement.
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:18 pm

Revelation wrote:
Overall I think all of the big 3 are pretty happy to sit back and try to recoup their investment on their current set of products.

Sounds like that. But then what will happen to engineers who normally design engines? Please come back in six years?
Also Airbus can't risk RR to go bust. The Chinese relied on Western engine makers to supply engines to whatever plane they develop. And what if politics changes its mind?
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Re: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:23 pm

ScottB wrote:
We know GE and Airbus couldn't come to an agreement which would put the GEnx on the A350 once it was upsized into the XWB, particularly the -1000. That's basically why RR ended up with the monopoly by default, but Airbus probably would have liked to offer a choice of engines as the 787 does.


Can you cite a single example of a lost sale due to lack of engine choice on any frame? My personal view is that engine choice is overplayed by some and that a lack of choice hasn’t cost any frame sales.
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:58 pm

flee wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Overall I think all of the big 3 are pretty happy to sit back and try to recoup their investment on their current set of products.

RR and GE are struggling financially, and Pratt just did a big layoff.

I also agree that Airbus is largely getting what they want from RR so it's not too likely they would decide to buy them.

As above, there may have been a genuine concern they would go under, but I would think RR would fall into the UK's "too big to fail" category.

IMO it'd take an odd set of circumstances all colliding for Airbus to decide to buy RR.

You are right - Airbus would be reluctant to take on more risks in these current uncertain times. I would think the only circumstance where Airbus would seriously consider taking over RR is if they got into serious financial decline that their very existence is threatened.

Now throw this in....

When RR was privatised, the Government retained a Golden Share. Sale of the company would be impossible unless that Share came with the deal as it's there to ensure the Company was protected as a strategic/defence asset.

The terms of this Share will be in the Company documents but as RR also has substantial nuclear assets it's very difficult to see a takeover by literally anyone.
 
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:22 pm

Polot wrote:
Revelation wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
Why would Airbus want to buy RR which has additional High development cost that airbus would have to cover. It could affect their ability to do A220/A320/A330/A350 upgrades due to cash flow.

It'd be a gamble, but all investments involve risk. Given the mantra to buy low and sell high, RR surely is at a low point, yet if they truly have turned the tide on their T1000 problems and we see a reasonably quick covid recovery they could be in for a strong run of form. RR has closed a lot of facilities and have shed a lot of employees so their costs are on the low side. Also they say they have UltraFan ready to go into a test campaign which eventually could create a lot of future revenue for the company.

Like it or not, the widebody market has been a de-facto duopoly between RR and GE since PW stepped all over their dingus on the 777 program.

I'm sure someone at Airbus is doing their sums to see if it would make sense to acquire RR.

I'm not so sure the politics would work out well though.

There is also the question of how happy PW and GE would be about it. RR may essentially be the sole suppliers for Airbus’s wide bodies but they have nothing on the narrow bodies. Airbus may suddenly find it harder to get improvements/rate increases etc as PW/GE wouldn’t want Airbus to profit and fund a direct future competitor.

Quite the opposite. GE/PW would re-double their efforts and sharpen prices to keep RR out of the NB business.

And don't underestimate how much these three already work together at arms length (and with mirrors), or the dialogue on using RR ultrafan in smaller applications.
 
smartplane
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:23 pm

Channex757 wrote:
flee wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Overall I think all of the big 3 are pretty happy to sit back and try to recoup their investment on their current set of products.

RR and GE are struggling financially, and Pratt just did a big layoff.

I also agree that Airbus is largely getting what they want from RR so it's not too likely they would decide to buy them.

As above, there may have been a genuine concern they would go under, but I would think RR would fall into the UK's "too big to fail" category.

IMO it'd take an odd set of circumstances all colliding for Airbus to decide to buy RR.

You are right - Airbus would be reluctant to take on more risks in these current uncertain times. I would think the only circumstance where Airbus would seriously consider taking over RR is if they got into serious financial decline that their very existence is threatened.

Now throw this in....

When RR was privatised, the Government retained a Golden Share. Sale of the company would be impossible unless that Share came with the deal as it's there to ensure the Company was protected as a strategic/defence asset.

The terms of this Share will be in the Company documents but as RR also has substantial nuclear assets it's very difficult to see a takeover by literally anyone.

The sale of the commercial aviation engine business would likely no longer be considered a strategic sale. The golden share would remain with the balance of the business.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:25 pm

smartplane wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Now throw this in....

When RR was privatised, the Government retained a Golden Share. Sale of the company would be impossible unless that Share came with the deal as it's there to ensure the Company was protected as a strategic/defence asset.

The terms of this Share will be in the Company documents but as RR also has substantial nuclear assets it's very difficult to see a takeover by literally anyone.

The sale of the commercial aviation engine business would likely no longer be considered a strategic sale. The golden share would remain with the balance of the business.

Yeah, even taking a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force#Aircraft you don't see a tremendous dependence on RR jets.

You could easily see a split that keeps the nuclear and military assets in one corporation and the commercial assets spun off into another, especially if it were the commercial assets that were hindering the survival of the nuclear/military side.

I think it'd be an unfortunate thing if it came to pass.

l hope RR can recover and be a strong independent player in the market.
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ScottB
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Re: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:00 pm

scbriml wrote:
Can you cite a single example of a lost sale due to lack of engine choice on any frame? My personal view is that engine choice is overplayed by some and that a lack of choice hasn’t cost any frame sales.


Nice move of the goalposts. Here's a bit of reading for you from back when the A350 became the A350 XWB after a lengthy series of Airbus missteps:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/a ... 50-engine/

A brief quote from the article (emphasis added):

Airlines try to avoid buying planes with only one engine supplier because it leaves them with little leverage to negotiate on price and ongoing maintenance costs. Airbus acknowledged earlier this week that the lack of alternatives was holding up sales.


I think that engine choice is less important when a particular airframe-engine combination is especially compelling -- like the 77W or A359 -- but it helps the sales campaign.
 
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ntehrani
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:02 pm

I'm sure there's something in the fine print to revent something like this, but it's funny to imagine: Airbus develops an 'A350-950' that *just happens* to be the same length as the -900 and with no changes other than the engines.
 
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armagnac2010
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:22 pm

The real contractual issue with Rolls-Royce engines is the nearly mandatory total care package they come with. Most airlines like it; some don't, typically those which are running MROs (AF or DLH, for instance). This has been addressed and it is now more flexible than it used to be.

Technically, while it was a disaster on the 787, the Trent is working fine on the A350. Some RR engineers blame the Trent 1000 debacle on the pressure to compete with the GENx, pushing to cut margins everywhere. Not convinced myself, hopefully the guys in Derby learned their lessons.

Beside that, single engine source is the norm, double the exception. We are unlikely to see anymore 3 options, as on the A330 or 777. Interestingly in both cases, one of the options took the lead, RR or GE, gradually winning the biggest market share on the basic aircraft to become the sole source on the derivative product.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:22 am

armagnac2010 wrote:


Beside that, single engine source is the norm, double the exception. We are unlikely to see anymore 3 options, as on the A330 or 777. Interestingly in both cases, one of the options took the lead, RR or GE, gradually winning the biggest market share on the basic aircraft to become the sole source on the derivative product.

RR won the 3-horse races on both the 330 and 777. GE became dominant on the 777 after exclusivity on the W/L.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus A350 Production/Delivery Thread - 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:29 am

ScottB wrote:
Nice move of the goalposts.


Except there are no goal posts to be moved. :wink2:

Still waiting for a confirmed example of a lost sale because an engine choice wasn't available. Any frame. If it was the big deal some are making it to be, how do they explain the OEMs ever going with exclusivity deals?
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Bricktop
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:10 pm

Revelation wrote:
As above, there may have been a genuine concern they would go under, but I would think RR would fall into the UK's "too big to fail" category.

Not even "too big". A Crown Jewel British name been sold off to the bloody Euros right after Brexit? I'll take that bet.


Yes, I know about the car division, but that was then.
 
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armagnac2010
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:01 pm

Not even "too big". A Crown Jewel British name been sold off to the bloody Euros right after Brexit? I'll take that bet.


It is already done. All Rolls-Royce type certificates have been transferred to the continent. From an ICAO perspective (Annex 13 etc.), the State of Design for all Trent engines is Germany, with some immediate consequences, for instance BFU Braunschweig is in charge of accident investigation, no longer AAIB Farnborough. Same applies to all commercial engines from Derby, now a subcontracting site.
 
Aircellist
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:44 pm

I am surprised that not quite a century after the United everything in aviation dismemberment, there could be thoughts of uniting an airframe OEM with a motorist…
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:56 pm

Aircellist wrote:
I am surprised that not quite a century after the United everything in aviation dismemberment, there could be thoughts of uniting an airframe OEM with a motorist…

Why not? It would allow for perfect integration and for perfect cooperation.
The United Aircraft and Transport Corporation added a 3rd component, which was the main issue: the airline/air carrier. At the time (not sure if it still applies), new antitrust laws were passed forbidding airframe or engine manufacturers from having interests in airlines; nothing was mentioned about airframe and engine manufacturers having interests in each other.
 
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Taxi645
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:09 pm

Postponing ultrafan is also beneficial to Airbus in the sense that it can postpone the extra investment of stretching the A350 to make any sensible use of the SFC gain of ultrafan. Payload range is already so good on the A350 that improving it further instead of stretching and improving CASM would not make much sense.
Innovation is seeing opportunity before obstacle.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Airbus A350-900s to remain exclusively Trent-powered until at least 2030

Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:29 pm

Aircellist wrote:
I am surprised that not quite a century after the United everything in aviation dismemberment, there could be thoughts of uniting an airframe OEM with a motorist…

It would be back to the future in another way too. The first jet-powered airliner was the De Havilland Comet, powered by the De Havilland Ghost (the intended Rolls-Royce Avon not being ready in time).

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