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mig21uti
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:08 pm

They need to focus on 6 to 9 hour flights and market the east coast to have a chance. If they want to go further they are doomed. For secondary markets you need to think about the A321 XLR or LR in high dense config. Any other plane is not going to work.
 
Someone83
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:24 am

Of the 9 787s thay have signed leased for (power by the hour the first year and a 50:50 mix in year 2), there are 3 787-8 and 6 787-9
 
airsmiles
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:51 am

Here we go again. Another bottom feeder trying their luck. The chances of failure are high considering no one since Laker days has made a decent go of low cost long-haul. Meanwhile. more established airlines will respond, which will cause damage to those airlines, more pressure on employee contracts and working practices etc.

The simple fact is that long-haul services requires a certain level of income to be sustained in the long-term. The day Michael O’Leary tries it I might sit up and take notice though.
 
DartHerald
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:12 am

The real problem with low cost long haul is that when one actually looks into it they're not significantly cheaper, all things considered. I looked at a Norwegian flight from London to Denver a couple of years ago and found that much the same price could be had from a legacy carrier, by the time one had factored in various optional charges.
 
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NCAD95
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:01 pm

DartHerald wrote:
The real problem with low cost long haul is that when one actually looks into it they're not significantly cheaper, all things considered. I looked at a Norwegian flight from London to Denver a couple of years ago and found that much the same price could be had from a legacy carrier, by the time one had factored in various optional charges.


It depends on the market. There are many markets where a carrier like Norwegian can bring cost relief. These are the markets they need to be in where they can make a difference and not just compete.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:38 am

NCAD95 wrote:
DartHerald wrote:
The real problem with low cost long haul is that when one actually looks into it they're not significantly cheaper, all things considered. I looked at a Norwegian flight from London to Denver a couple of years ago and found that much the same price could be had from a legacy carrier, by the time one had factored in various optional charges.


It depends on the market. There are many markets where a carrier like Norwegian can bring cost relief. These are the markets they need to be in where they can make a difference and not just compete.


Very much true.

Another reason to fly a long haul LCC is when you don't need optional extras, you can save on the total ticket price by leaving out what you don't need. Legacy airlines don't offer that option. Indeed when you include everything the price difference is negligible, but the beauty of a long haul LCC is that you can leave things out.

A few years ago I flew Norwegian to Los Angeles. As I would only be there for a couple of days, I didn't need much luggage. I opted to travel with hand luggage only and thus not pay for checked luggage. I didn't care that legacy airlines offered checked luggage for free, I could be cheaper if I flew Norwegian without checked luggage. Norwegian also charged €35 for a meal on board, no way I was going to pay that! I could have a good hot meal at the airport prior to departure for around €10 and bring a few sandwiches with me in my hand luggage to eat on board. That was another €25 off the ticket price, another reason to pick Norwegian over a legacy airline.

Besides, the presence of an LCC on a certain route puts pressure on the legacy airlines to somewhat match the ticket price. Many routes where Norwegian flew were expensive before Norwegian entered the market. Norwegian caused legacy airlines to lower their ticket prices. After Norwegian pulled out, the legacy airlines raised their prices again. Therefor, even if you opt to fly a legacy airline, it's good for a route to have low-cost competition on it. All passengers benefit from that, not just the LCC passengers.
 
Seat0F
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:33 pm

Those low prices were unsustainable though, as proven by the collapse of Norweigian LH. The reality is the costs in LH travel are heavily towards the aircraft and fuel costs. Crew costs are less relevant to the total costs, and aircraft utilisation is no better than at the legacies. Thus the costs are broadly similar to the legacy carriers. The legacies also have cargo and (pre-covid) business class travellers who in effect subsidise the economy passengers. Plus legacy carries have wider reach through connecting networks and codeshares etc. That way they get the volume to offer routes with too small a P2P market.

The only way I can see lowcost longhaul working is if they target routes with heavy volumes of point to point traffic, e.g. VFR routes. From London places like JFK, MCO, ISB, DEL, YYZ etc. Paris to francophone destinations. The scandi markets are all far too small for daily flights to pretty much anywhere other than maybe Thailand in the winter months.

The thought of this entity flying to random small cities in the USA, that to be blunt no one outside of the USA has ever heard of, from Europe is laughable.
 
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scbriml
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:36 pm

Seat0F wrote:
Those low prices were unsustainable though, as proven by the collapse of Norweigian LH.


It's proven? Do you think a global pandemic that stopped nearly everyone from flying long haul might have had an impact as well?
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NCAD95
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:37 pm

Seat0F wrote:
Those low prices were unsustainable though, as proven by the collapse of Norweigian LH. The reality is the costs in LH travel are heavily towards the aircraft and fuel costs. Crew costs are less relevant to the total costs, and aircraft utilisation is no better than at the legacies. Thus the costs are broadly similar to the legacy carriers. The legacies also have cargo and (pre-covid) business class travellers who in effect subsidise the economy passengers. Plus legacy carries have wider reach through connecting networks and codeshares etc. That way they get the volume to offer routes with too small a P2P market.

The only way I can see lowcost longhaul working is if they target routes with heavy volumes of point to point traffic, e.g. VFR routes. From London places like JFK, MCO, ISB, DEL, YYZ etc. Paris to francophone destinations. The scandi markets are all far too small for daily flights to pretty much anywhere other than maybe Thailand in the winter months.

The thought of this entity flying to random small cities in the USA, that to be blunt no one outside of the USA has ever heard of, from Europe is laughable.


You can't say it doesn't work or is laughable until you try. The scenario you suggested has been tried over and over again with the same result. It's time for a new perspective.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:32 pm

Seat0F wrote:
Those low prices were unsustainable though, as proven by the collapse of Norweigian LH. The reality is the costs in LH travel are heavily towards the aircraft and fuel costs. Crew costs are less relevant to the total costs, and aircraft utilisation is no better than at the legacies. Thus the costs are broadly similar to the legacy carriers. The legacies also have cargo and (pre-covid) business class travellers who in effect subsidise the economy passengers. Plus legacy carries have wider reach through connecting networks and codeshares etc. That way they get the volume to offer routes with too small a P2P market.

The only way I can see lowcost longhaul working is if they target routes with heavy volumes of point to point traffic, e.g. VFR routes. From London places like JFK, MCO, ISB, DEL, YYZ etc. Paris to francophone destinations. The scandi markets are all far too small for daily flights to pretty much anywhere other than maybe Thailand in the winter months.


I don't fully agree with that.

It might be true that the cost of long haul aircraft leans heavily towards aircraft and fuel costs, but that doesn't mean you can't skid off some of the price by offering a lower service level with everything non-essential available as optional extra (for a fee). It just takes one airline to do that and be slightly cheaper than the legacies.

The legacies have a wider reach through connection networks, but who says the same can't be true for long haul low cost airlines? There are short haul low cost airlines everywhere, tie two flights together and you got yourself a connection. Point to point traffic helps of course, but even as a long haul low cost airline you don't have to entirely rely on it. You can capture connecting traffic as well, which is needed to achieve good load factors.

Norwegian long haul made a number of strategical mistakes. What really led to their collapse was that they held on to those mistakes as if they were doing it right when in reality they weren't. They grew too big and were therefor basically competing against themselves, they had a lot of individual flights but they didn't have a network. This can easily be done better, the mistakes Norwegian made are a good example of how not to run a long haul low cost airline.

Yes, your primary target might be VFR traffic but that doesn't have to mean point to point. Low cost passengers won't mind a connection if that saves them money, you can (and should) make use of that. It's important that you can congest the demand, limiting the amount of flights so you don't compete against yourself. Short haul LCCs are your feeders, they can get your passengers to your departure airports. As long as the two flights added up are cheaper than the legacies, you're good.
 
airsmiles
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:12 pm

scbriml wrote:
Seat0F wrote:
Those low prices were unsustainable though, as proven by the collapse of Norweigian LH.


It's proven? Do you think a global pandemic that stopped nearly everyone from flying long haul might have had an impact as well?


Yes, it’s been repeatedly proven. Not a single low-cost long haul airline has been successful in the long-term during the last 40 years.
 
Seat0F
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:36 pm

Exactly. Unless you can point me to the longhaul lowcost airline profitably flying daily 787s between Savannah and Naples that is!

The model some people are imagining in their heads does not exist. This airline, which will probably never get off the ground, will fail. Like literally ALL the others!
 
freakyrat
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Re: New Norwegian locost international airline announced

Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:00 pm

NCAD95 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
NCAD95 wrote:
It's time for BWI, CLE, DTW, PIT, YWG, MCI, STL, CVG 2 to 3 weekly and the like. Uncongested low traffic airports where turn arounds can be executed with minimal delay and optimal aircraft usage. Pick a city and make it your low coast hub and watch the profits grow. Good choice maybe HAM or GLA


Oh my god, just set bails of money on fire. HAM has struggled even to NYC. CLE, PIT, CVG -- you couldn't get 75 people to pay $500 each way, let alone fill a 787-8.

Among your U.S. origins only BWI and DTW even get service to LONDON. Second- and third-tier European destinations to 2nd and 3rd-tier North American destinations just won't cut it. Do yourself a favor: study NAS' TATL network failures.


Yes and all those failures have the same suspects BOS, NYC, ORD, LAX, SFO and Florida. WOW Air couldn't even make MIA work. The key is not the O/D numbers but the beyond connections that can be done. That why KEF works granted it is a tourist destination but offer people $500 roundtrips to Germany through HAM and they can access inexpensive train travel through Germany and the rest of central Europe. It's time for some out of the box thinking like G4 in the USA and they are making money flying out of smaller airports less than daily. All I'm saying is try something else I don't need an course in airline economics to know the current status quo isn't working. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.


For ORD you look at small airports around Chicago like MKE, SBN, and RFD. All 3 have US Customs. MKE and SBN have trains to Chicago. For SBN Notre Dame has business operations in Dublin so that could be a destination. As far as HAM goes I've flown the United flight to EWR and it was full. If you want to travel by rail in Germany you do have to take the S-Bahn into the main HBF from the HAM airport to connect to the ICE trains. FRA on the otherhand has an ICE train station at the airport.
 
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NCAD95
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:07 pm

Seat0F wrote:
Exactly. Unless you can point me to the longhaul lowcost airline profitably flying daily 787s between Savannah and Naples that is!

The model some people are imagining in their heads does not exist. This airline, which will probably never get off the ground, will fail. Like literally ALL the others!


And you know that's a ridicules example. First of all the 787 is not the right plane a 321LR is what you start with flying to BWI, CLE, PIT and the like not Savanah. If you have a scissor hub the O/D market is not that important when you use connections to places like LON, FRA, PAR, MUC and the like. Large market with NO low coast international service that are being raped by airfares. These LCCs need to be run with brains and not ego and then maybe they'd have a fighting chance.
 
Seat0F
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:14 am

How much demand is there from CLE to LON and PAR? Genuine question. The demand to CLE from those 2 European cities has to be extremely low. Apart from VFR and a small bit of business travel there will be approximately zero demand to visit CLE. Ask any European where CLE is and they’ll reply “is that the character in Family Guy?”

If this is to work it will be on bulk routes for leisure and VFR.
 
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NCAD95
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:56 am

Seat0F wrote:
How much demand is there from CLE to LON and PAR? Genuine question. The demand to CLE from those 2 European cities has to be extremely low. Apart from VFR and a small bit of business travel there will be approximately zero demand to visit CLE. Ask any European where CLE is and they’ll reply “is that the character in Family Guy?”

If this is to work it will be on bulk routes for leisure and VFR.



Ask your average American where Manchester, Oslo and Brussels are. There was a reason why both WOW Air and Icelandair chose CLE and while have both in the market might have been a bit to much one could have exsistaned quite comfortaly there in a city that had NO love fare service to Europe.
 
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NCAD95
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:57 am

Seat0F wrote:
How much demand is there from CLE to LON and PAR? Genuine question. The demand to CLE from those 2 European cities has to be extremely low. Apart from VFR and a small bit of business travel there will be approximately zero demand to visit CLE. Ask any European where CLE is and they’ll reply “is that the character in Family Guy?”

If this is to work it will be on bulk routes for leisure and VFR.


In my opinion the O/D on CLE-FRA, CDG, ORY, LGW and LHR justify a 3 weekly narrow body into a low coast hub some where in Europe is plenty to make it work.
 
Capricorn
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:58 am

Seat0F wrote:
How much demand is there from CLE to LON and PAR? Genuine question. The demand to CLE from those 2 European cities has to be extremely low. Apart from VFR and a small bit of business travel there will be approximately zero demand to visit CLE. Ask any European where CLE is and they’ll reply “is that the character in Family Guy?”

If this is to work it will be on bulk routes for leisure and VFR.


I think this is fundamentally true. One end needs to be a popular destination ppl actually want to travel to, or a large outbound market. I can see secondary Europe to popular US tourist destinations working (Florida, NY) but maybe not year round and with a rather low frequency like 3x weekly. Also secondary US to popular EU leisure destinations is a possibility. As I have little knowledge about US travel preferences I don't have good example but maybe Rom/Italy?

And I think some cooperation with a tour operator is essential for the model to succeed. Like Condor, TUI, NEOS (Does French Blue work together with a tour operator?). But even then margins are thin and low season remains a problem.

I can't see the model working when going head to head with legacies as they could comfortably use the tactic of destroyer pricing to fend off the competition. Also secondary city to secondary city I can't see as being successful.
 
skipness1E
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:09 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
There is a saying that goes "when you fall off, you just have to get back on the norse."

There's an old saying.
"You pay your debts".
and
"Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is insane."
 
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DLHAM
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:18 pm

Seat0F wrote:
How much demand is there from CLE to LON and PAR? Genuine question. The demand to CLE from those 2 European cities has to be extremely low. Apart from VFR and a small bit of business travel there will be approximately zero demand to visit CLE. Ask any European where CLE is and they’ll reply “is that the character in Family Guy?”

If this is to work it will be on bulk routes for leisure and VFR.


While CLE may not be New York, Miami or Los Angeles its still a sizeable down with a catchment area. While I dont know how rich this region is I know that for example from Cleveland to London there were 51,4 passengers daily each way -- before Corona. Thats not all too bad ... More than ORD-PRG, HAM-LAX, MUC-DFW, BOS-ATH or BER-MIA.
Based on these 51,4 passengers 3-4 weekly 787s would easily work operated by a LCC style airline. On a Legacy Airline connecting a hub offering connections I think even a daily flight on a 757 or A321 would work.

Also Cleveland is not too far from Detroit, means that I suspect quite some people living in the Cleveland area take the 2 hour trip by car to DTW and fly from there, these passengers do not even show up in Clevelands statistics (these 51,4 PDEW to London).
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NCAD95
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:14 pm

DLHAM wrote:
Seat0F wrote:
How much demand is there from CLE to LON and PAR? Genuine question. The demand to CLE from those 2 European cities has to be extremely low. Apart from VFR and a small bit of business travel there will be approximately zero demand to visit CLE. Ask any European where CLE is and they’ll reply “is that the character in Family Guy?”

If this is to work it will be on bulk routes for leisure and VFR.


While CLE may not be New York, Miami or Los Angeles its still a sizeable down with a catchment area. While I dont know how rich this region is I know that for example from Cleveland to London there were 51,4 passengers daily each way -- before Corona. Thats not all too bad ... More than ORD-PRG, HAM-LAX, MUC-DFW, BOS-ATH or BER-MIA.
Based on these 51,4 passengers 3-4 weekly 787s would easily work operated by a LCC style airline. On a Legacy Airline connecting a hub offering connections I think even a daily flight on a 757 or A321 would work.

Also Cleveland is not too far from Detroit, means that I suspect quite some people living in the Cleveland area take the 2 hour trip by car to DTW and fly from there, these passengers do not even show up in Clevelands statistics (these 51,4 PDEW to London).


Fares out of Detroit are not worth the drive as Delta charges a huge premium for their flights. Even budget minded Detroiters are driving to YYZ and to a lessor extent ORD to access affordable air travel to Europe.
 
Seat0F
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:27 pm

DLHAM wrote:
Seat0F wrote:
How much demand is there from CLE to LON and PAR? Genuine question. The demand to CLE from those 2 European cities has to be extremely low. Apart from VFR and a small bit of business travel there will be approximately zero demand to visit CLE. Ask any European where CLE is and they’ll reply “is that the character in Family Guy?”

If this is to work it will be on bulk routes for leisure and VFR.


While CLE may not be New York, Miami or Los Angeles its still a sizeable down with a catchment area. While I dont know how rich this region is I know that for example from Cleveland to London there were 51,4 passengers daily each way -- before Corona. Thats not all too bad ... More than ORD-PRG, HAM-LAX, MUC-DFW, BOS-ATH or BER-MIA.
Based on these 51,4 passengers 3-4 weekly 787s would easily work operated by a LCC style airline. On a Legacy Airline connecting a hub offering connections I think even a daily flight on a 757 or A321 would work.

Also Cleveland is not too far from Detroit, means that I suspect quite some people living in the Cleveland area take the 2 hour trip by car to DTW and fly from there, these passengers do not even show up in Clevelands statistics (these 51,4 PDEW to London).



I had no idea the numbers would be quite that low, thanks for sharing! There really is almost no market at all for direct flights. A direct flight wouldn’t get 100% share but at the same time it might stimulate the market. But at such tiny numbers to probably the biggest O/D market in Europe it shows how flawed the notion of lowcost 787s flying such a route is.

I’m not sure how to double-quote but the example of Wow Air and Icelandair flying to CLE proves my point. One of those airlines was bankrupted by flying such loss-making routes. The other doesn’t fly there anymore and is a legacy carrier concept anyway.

I’ll stand by my point. A 787 lowcost operation will have to fly on trunk P2P routes to have any chance of success with the cost structure they will need to have a USP on price. That means major cities at both ends.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:50 pm

Seat0F wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
Seat0F wrote:
How much demand is there from CLE to LON and PAR? Genuine question. The demand to CLE from those 2 European cities has to be extremely low. Apart from VFR and a small bit of business travel there will be approximately zero demand to visit CLE. Ask any European where CLE is and they’ll reply “is that the character in Family Guy?”

If this is to work it will be on bulk routes for leisure and VFR.


While CLE may not be New York, Miami or Los Angeles its still a sizeable down with a catchment area. While I dont know how rich this region is I know that for example from Cleveland to London there were 51,4 passengers daily each way -- before Corona. Thats not all too bad ... More than ORD-PRG, HAM-LAX, MUC-DFW, BOS-ATH or BER-MIA.
Based on these 51,4 passengers 3-4 weekly 787s would easily work operated by a LCC style airline. On a Legacy Airline connecting a hub offering connections I think even a daily flight on a 757 or A321 would work.

Also Cleveland is not too far from Detroit, means that I suspect quite some people living in the Cleveland area take the 2 hour trip by car to DTW and fly from there, these passengers do not even show up in Clevelands statistics (these 51,4 PDEW to London).



I had no idea the numbers would be quite that low, thanks for sharing! There really is almost no market at all for direct flights. A direct flight wouldn’t get 100% share but at the same time it might stimulate the market. But at such tiny numbers to probably the biggest O/D market in Europe it shows how flawed the notion of lowcost 787s flying such a route is.

I’m not sure how to double-quote but the example of Wow Air and Icelandair flying to CLE proves my point. One of those airlines was bankrupted by flying such loss-making routes. The other doesn’t fly there anymore and is a legacy carrier concept anyway.

I’ll stand by my point. A 787 lowcost operation will have to fly on trunk P2P routes to have any chance of success with the cost structure they will need to have a USP on price. That means major cities at both ends.


I think longhaul LCC does not have to have "major" cities at both ends, but at least at one end. Of course they would not get 100% share, in my example I calculated with a 50% share.

While 51 PDEW isnt the highest volume market its not a low number!
Some examples:

In July 2018 TXL-PHL had a PDEW of 8. One year later with the new AA flight it rose to 60 which is 633%.
In July 2005 DUS-ATL had a PDEW of 18. One year later with the then new DL flight it rose to 88, +378%
July 2004 HAM-EWR (EWR only) PDEW of 99. One year later with then new CO flight it was 171, +73%.
July 2012 TXL-ORD PDEW 59. One year later with AB flight 182, +209%.

Of course there has to be some business traffic, tourist traffic in at least one direction and more. But I think Cleveland is not hopeless at all, if the flight goes to a major city. Hasnt Continental had a flight to Gatwick in the past on the 757? Or/and even Paris as well?

Heres a list of the highest PDEW (oneway!) unserved routes between Europe and the US, but numbers are before COVID. For two routes I could not find numbers but I know they have high PDEW, also maybe I missed a few.
* means that there is no direct transatlantic flight at all from one of the two cities, italic written routes just had a new service announced/started.

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NCAD95
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:37 pm

DLHAM wrote:
Seat0F wrote:
DLHAM wrote:

While CLE may not be New York, Miami or Los Angeles its still a sizeable down with a catchment area. While I dont know how rich this region is I know that for example from Cleveland to London there were 51,4 passengers daily each way -- before Corona. Thats not all too bad ... More than ORD-PRG, HAM-LAX, MUC-DFW, BOS-ATH or BER-MIA.
Based on these 51,4 passengers 3-4 weekly 787s would easily work operated by a LCC style airline. On a Legacy Airline connecting a hub offering connections I think even a daily flight on a 757 or A321 would work.

Also Cleveland is not too far from Detroit, means that I suspect quite some people living in the Cleveland area take the 2 hour trip by car to DTW and fly from there, these passengers do not even show up in Clevelands statistics (these 51,4 PDEW to London).



I had no idea the numbers would be quite that low, thanks for sharing! There really is almost no market at all for direct flights. A direct flight wouldn’t get 100% share but at the same time it might stimulate the market. But at such tiny numbers to probably the biggest O/D market in Europe it shows how flawed the notion of lowcost 787s flying such a route is.

I’m not sure how to double-quote but the example of Wow Air and Icelandair flying to CLE proves my point. One of those airlines was bankrupted by flying such loss-making routes. The other doesn’t fly there anymore and is a legacy carrier concept anyway.

I’ll stand by my point. A 787 lowcost operation will have to fly on trunk P2P routes to have any chance of success with the cost structure they will need to have a USP on price. That means major cities at both ends.


I think longhaul LCC does not have to have "major" cities at both ends, but at least at one end. Of course they would not get 100% share, in my example I calculated with a 50% share.

While 51 PDEW isnt the highest volume market its not a low number!
Some examples:

In July 2018 TXL-PHL had a PDEW of 8. One year later with the new AA flight it rose to 60 which is 633%.
In July 2005 DUS-ATL had a PDEW of 18. One year later with the then new DL flight it rose to 88, +378%
July 2004 HAM-EWR (EWR only) PDEW of 99. One year later with then new CO flight it was 171, +73%.
July 2012 TXL-ORD PDEW 59. One year later with AB flight 182, +209%.

Of course there has to be some business traffic, tourist traffic in at least one direction and more. But I think Cleveland is not hopeless at all, if the flight goes to a major city. Hasnt Continental had a flight to Gatwick in the past on the 757? Or/and even Paris as well?

Heres a list of the highest PDEW (oneway!) unserved routes between Europe and the US, but numbers are before COVID. For two routes I could not find numbers but I know they have high PDEW, also maybe I missed a few.
* means that there is no direct transatlantic flight at all from one of the two cities, italic written routes just had a new service announced/started.

Image


I believe this is really really old. What is the PDEW on DTW-DUB and DTW-KEF when WOW Air was on the route. I'm really not a big fan of these potential PDEW because it doesn't take into account the potential of the route when operated or the people who use other alternatives when said service is not available. HAM is a really great example of this. How many termine at AMS and use ground transportation to go onward to HAM. I had a family friend who traveled to Northern Germany every yeay and always flew into AMS rather than her nearest airport BRE.
 
FGITD
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:47 pm

For some fascinating insight into long haul LCC operations, I highly recommend searching news articles and business journals.

The articles themselves are usually worthless, but what sticks out is that every example airline they use is no longer operating. Which of course speaks volumes more than the articles themselves.

It seems the purpose of the LH LCC is to shake things up, but not to exist long term.

The introduction of narrow bodies capable of long haul flights might mix that up a bit. But we’ve seen that in the past as well. And they failed too.
 
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:51 pm

NCAD95 wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
Seat0F wrote:


I had no idea the numbers would be quite that low, thanks for sharing! There really is almost no market at all for direct flights. A direct flight wouldn’t get 100% share but at the same time it might stimulate the market. But at such tiny numbers to probably the biggest O/D market in Europe it shows how flawed the notion of lowcost 787s flying such a route is.

I’m not sure how to double-quote but the example of Wow Air and Icelandair flying to CLE proves my point. One of those airlines was bankrupted by flying such loss-making routes. The other doesn’t fly there anymore and is a legacy carrier concept anyway.

I’ll stand by my point. A 787 lowcost operation will have to fly on trunk P2P routes to have any chance of success with the cost structure they will need to have a USP on price. That means major cities at both ends.


I think longhaul LCC does not have to have "major" cities at both ends, but at least at one end. Of course they would not get 100% share, in my example I calculated with a 50% share.

While 51 PDEW isnt the highest volume market its not a low number!
Some examples:

In July 2018 TXL-PHL had a PDEW of 8. One year later with the new AA flight it rose to 60 which is 633%.
In July 2005 DUS-ATL had a PDEW of 18. One year later with the then new DL flight it rose to 88, +378%
July 2004 HAM-EWR (EWR only) PDEW of 99. One year later with then new CO flight it was 171, +73%.
July 2012 TXL-ORD PDEW 59. One year later with AB flight 182, +209%.

Of course there has to be some business traffic, tourist traffic in at least one direction and more. But I think Cleveland is not hopeless at all, if the flight goes to a major city. Hasnt Continental had a flight to Gatwick in the past on the 757? Or/and even Paris as well?

Heres a list of the highest PDEW (oneway!) unserved routes between Europe and the US, but numbers are before COVID. For two routes I could not find numbers but I know they have high PDEW, also maybe I missed a few.
* means that there is no direct transatlantic flight at all from one of the two cities, italic written routes just had a new service announced/started.

Image


I believe this is really really old. What is the PDEW on DTW-DUB and DTW-KEF when WOW Air was on the route. I'm really not a big fan of these potential PDEW because it doesn't take into account the potential of the route when operated or the people who use other alternatives when said service is not available. HAM is a really great example of this. How many termine at AMS and use ground transportation to go onward to HAM. I had a family friend who traveled to Northern Germany every yeay and always flew into AMS rather than her nearest airport BRE.


This list is not too old, started it about a year ago and still look for more numbers/routes. Of course it does not take into account how many people fly from nearby airports. But it shows how much core demand there is -- and in many cases its more. From Hamburg quite a few people use the "Rail and Fly" option, a train ride on the ICE to Frankfurt that is included in the Flight Ticket, these people do not show up in the statistics of course. But in gereral there is almost no overlap to catchments of other big airports.
DUS for example is more complicating: many huge airports nearby that steal demand but also can deliver some demand.
Regarding DTWDUB and DTWKEF I have no numbers unfortunately, but the passengers traveling was very likely higher with these WOW flights.
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skipness1E
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:09 pm

The current best theory is that low cost long haul works only from minor city to minor city on a less than daily basis to protect the price point. Otherwise hubs will get you there at a cheaper fare more frequently.
 
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:33 pm

skipness1E wrote:
The current best theory is that low cost long haul works only from minor city to minor city on a less than daily basis to protect the price point. Otherwise hubs will get you there at a cheaper fare more frequently.


Hubs will not do that for you if you don't have an operation big enough the threaten the incumbent carrier. Of course in places like BOS, NYC, FLA, and CHI you're going to get attacked. But less than daily in other markets no one is going to bat an eye. Delta and Lufthansa never matched the WOW Air fares out of Detroit and everyone coexisted peacefully.
 
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:34 pm

DLHAM wrote:
Heres a list of the highest PDEW (oneway!) unserved routes between Europe and the US, but numbers are before COVID. For two routes I could not find numbers but I know they have high PDEW, also maybe I missed a few.
* means that there is no direct transatlantic flight at all from one of the two cities, italic written routes just had a new service announced/started.

Image


How would you decide on the PDEW LHR-MCO, is that simply based on the number of people flying LHR-XXX-MCO ? But presumably that is just because status/preferred airline/dirt cheap LHR-US city with connections to MCO rather than locals not actually willing to go to LGW to take the direct flight?
 
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:24 pm

JibberJim wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
Heres a list of the highest PDEW (oneway!) unserved routes between Europe and the US, but numbers are before COVID. For two routes I could not find numbers but I know they have high PDEW, also maybe I missed a few.
* means that there is no direct transatlantic flight at all from one of the two cities, italic written routes just had a new service announced/started.

Image


How would you decide on the PDEW LHR-MCO, is that simply based on the number of people flying LHR-XXX-MCO ? But presumably that is just because status/preferred airline/dirt cheap LHR-US city with connections to MCO rather than locals not actually willing to go to LGW to take the direct flight?


This number is passengers going from Heathrow via XX to MCO. Passengers taking the nonstop flights from Gatwick are not included. This is a very high number, especially given the fact that there also are some direct flights going from another London Airport (that of course partly has a different catchment). So London - Orlando in general is served of course, but Heathrow to Orlando not.
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:26 pm

scbriml wrote:
Seat0F wrote:
Those low prices were unsustainable though, as proven by the collapse of Norweigian LH.


It's proven? Do you think a global pandemic that stopped nearly everyone from flying long haul might have had an impact as well?


Well, it's not like Norwegian didn't have problems well before the pandemic, the pandemic was more like the final nails in the coffin.
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Seat0F
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:21 am

DLHAM wrote:
Seat0F wrote:
DLHAM wrote:

While CLE may not be New York, Miami or Los Angeles its still a sizeable down with a catchment area. While I dont know how rich this region is I know that for example from Cleveland to London there were 51,4 passengers daily each way -- before Corona. Thats not all too bad ... More than ORD-PRG, HAM-LAX, MUC-DFW, BOS-ATH or BER-MIA.
Based on these 51,4 passengers 3-4 weekly 787s would easily work operated by a LCC style airline. On a Legacy Airline connecting a hub offering connections I think even a daily flight on a 757 or A321 would work.

Also Cleveland is not too far from Detroit, means that I suspect quite some people living in the Cleveland area take the 2 hour trip by car to DTW and fly from there, these passengers do not even show up in Clevelands statistics (these 51,4 PDEW to London).



I had no idea the numbers would be quite that low, thanks for sharing! There really is almost no market at all for direct flights. A direct flight wouldn’t get 100% share but at the same time it might stimulate the market. But at such tiny numbers to probably the biggest O/D market in Europe it shows how flawed the notion of lowcost 787s flying such a route is.

I’m not sure how to double-quote but the example of Wow Air and Icelandair flying to CLE proves my point. One of those airlines was bankrupted by flying such loss-making routes. The other doesn’t fly there anymore and is a legacy carrier concept anyway.

I’ll stand by my point. A 787 lowcost operation will have to fly on trunk P2P routes to have any chance of success with the cost structure they will need to have a USP on price. That means major cities at both ends.


I think longhaul LCC does not have to have "major" cities at both ends, but at least at one end. Of course they would not get 100% share, in my example I calculated with a 50% share.

While 51 PDEW isnt the highest volume market its not a low number!
Some examples:

In July 2018 TXL-PHL had a PDEW of 8. One year later with the new AA flight it rose to 60 which is 633%.
In July 2005 DUS-ATL had a PDEW of 18. One year later with the then new DL flight it rose to 88, +378%
July 2004 HAM-EWR (EWR only) PDEW of 99. One year later with then new CO flight it was 171, +73%.
July 2012 TXL-ORD PDEW 59. One year later with AB flight 182, +209%.

Of course there has to be some business traffic, tourist traffic in at least one direction and more. But I think Cleveland is not hopeless at all, if the flight goes to a major city. Hasnt Continental had a flight to Gatwick in the past on the 757? Or/and even Paris as well?

Heres a list of the highest PDEW (oneway!) unserved routes between Europe and the US, but numbers are before COVID. For two routes I could not find numbers but I know they have high PDEW, also maybe I missed a few.
* means that there is no direct transatlantic flight at all from one of the two cities, italic written routes just had a new service announced/started.

Image



Market stimulation is much more significant than I thought then. Perhaps CLE could work once a day to somewhere like LON/PAR. Maybe on an A321XLR or 787-8 though. LON/PAR will be the “destination” though. Any market smaller would need feed, which adds to cost and complexity.
 
skipness1E
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:55 am

NCAD95 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
The current best theory is that low cost long haul works only from minor city to minor city on a less than daily basis to protect the price point. Otherwise hubs will get you there at a cheaper fare more frequently.


Hubs will not do that for you if you don't have an operation big enough the threaten the incumbent carrier. Of course in places like BOS, NYC, FLA, and CHI you're going to get attacked. But less than daily in other markets no one is going to bat an eye. Delta and Lufthansa never matched the WOW Air fares out of Detroit and everyone coexisted peacefully.


That's my point, a challenger can take market share by flying beneath the radar on P2P between secondary markets, I am not suggesting the challengers hubs, they're competing with the hub option.
 
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:10 pm

AerCap will lease six 787-9s and three 787-8s to Norse Atlantic. Deliveries begin this year.

https://www.aercap.com/media/news/aerca ... -aircraft/
 
Someone83
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:32 pm

That means the 3 -8 will be
LN153 ex LN-LND/EI-LND
LN178 ex LN-LNF/EI-LNF
LN183 ex LN-LNG//EI-LNG
 
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:53 pm

And the 6 -9 is probably:

LN593 - ex LN-LNR/G-CKNA
LN598 - ex LN-LNO/G-CJUL
LN662 - ex G-CKOF
LN675 - ex G-CKWB
LN691 - ex G-CKWD
LN698 - ex G-CKWE
 
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:16 am

Interview with Bjørn Tore Larsen, Norse's founder in Airline Weekly, emphasizing they are a new company and not just a copy or continuation of Norwegian

https://airlineweekly.com/norse-atlanti ... s-move-on/

Norse Atlantic Airways CEO Bjørn Tore Larsen brushed off comparisons to Norwegian Air and is confident the U.S. will approve the new airline in time for its planned transatlantic launch later this year or in the first quarter of next year.
 
airsmiles
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:39 am

Someone83 wrote:
Interview with Bjørn Tore Larsen, Norse's founder in Airline Weekly, emphasizing they are a new company and not just a copy or continuation of Norwegian

https://airlineweekly.com/norse-atlanti ... s-move-on/

Norse Atlantic Airways CEO Bjørn Tore Larsen brushed off comparisons to Norwegian Air and is confident the U.S. will approve the new airline in time for its planned transatlantic launch later this year or in the first quarter of next year.


Unfortunately that statement means absolutely nothing. He’s hardly likely to say he’s going to do exactly what Norwegian did and he’s pessimistic about US approval.

What seems to be true is that the ex-Norwegian boss is using ex-Norwegian aircraft between similar city pairs that Norwegian used to offer. How much of what the new airline is doing is really different?
 
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:51 am

airsmiles wrote:
What seems to be true is that the ex-Norwegian boss is using ex-Norwegian aircraft between similar city pairs that Norwegian used to offer. How much of what the new airline is doing is really different?


There is one error in this statement: The founder and CEO here has has never worked for Norwegian. He owns several companies within shipping and crew resources, but his only previous involvement with Norwegian was that he hired out crews to them

Bjørn Kjos, the former Norwegian CEO and founder, is just involved here as a minor investor
 
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:36 pm

Someone83 wrote:
airsmiles wrote:
What seems to be true is that the ex-Norwegian boss is using ex-Norwegian aircraft between similar city pairs that Norwegian used to offer. How much of what the new airline is doing is really different?


There is one error in this statement: The founder and CEO here has has never worked for Norwegian. He owns several companies within shipping and crew resources, but his only previous involvement with Norwegian was that he hired out crews to them

Bjørn Kjos, the former Norwegian CEO and founder, is just involved here as a minor investor


Thanks for that. My mistake.
 
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:23 pm

airsmiles wrote:
Thanks for that. My mistake.


It is easy to make that mistake. Especially since the start up plan to use former Norwegian aircraft and flying many of their former routes. That creates a lot of questions. And especially when certain persons out there, with their own agenda, tries to make Norse = Norwegian

While I still don't see how they can succeed and become profitable, they have at least got enough investors to believe in them, and provide funding.

They will be listed on the Oslo Stock Exchange, most likely this week, which means their largest shareholders will become public ;)
 
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:10 am

First trading day at the Oslo Stock Exchange as today, confirming the successful IPO. Starts trading up 3-4% from the initial offering
 
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:55 am

Someone83 wrote:
It is easy to make that mistake. Especially since the start up plan to use former Norwegian aircraft and flying many of their former routes. That creates a lot of questions. And especially when certain persons out there, with their own agenda, tries to make Norse = Norwegian

I think Norse = Norwegian, that's clearly the intention surely? The aircraft, certain markets, some people and even the branding is intentionally reminiscent of Norwegian? You don't need to have any agenda to see that, it's not been done accidentally.
 
Someone83
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:26 am

skipness1E wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
It is easy to make that mistake. Especially since the start up plan to use former Norwegian aircraft and flying many of their former routes. That creates a lot of questions. And especially when certain persons out there, with their own agenda, tries to make Norse = Norwegian

I think Norse = Norwegian, that's clearly the intention surely? The aircraft, certain markets, some people and even the branding is intentionally reminiscent of Norwegian? You don't need to have any agenda to see that, it's not been done accidentally.


The branding is yet to be presented
 
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lesfalls
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:37 pm

Someone83 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
It is easy to make that mistake. Especially since the start up plan to use former Norwegian aircraft and flying many of their former routes. That creates a lot of questions. And especially when certain persons out there, with their own agenda, tries to make Norse = Norwegian

I think Norse = Norwegian, that's clearly the intention surely? The aircraft, certain markets, some people and even the branding is intentionally reminiscent of Norwegian? You don't need to have any agenda to see that, it's not been done accidentally.


The branding is yet to be presented


On the contrary, the logo was presented at the listing at the Oslo Borse:

https://www.euronext.com/en/about/media ... ext-growth

Still, the paint scheme of the aircraft will require some time.
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bluefltspecial
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:52 pm

Someone83 wrote:
That means the 3 -8 will be
LN153 ex LN-LND/EI-LND
LN178 ex LN-LNF/EI-LNF
LN183 ex LN-LNG//EI-LNG


Someone83 wrote:
And the 6 -9 is probably:

LN593 - ex LN-LNR/G-CKNA
LN598 - ex LN-LNO/G-CJUL
LN662 - ex G-CKOF
LN675 - ex G-CKWB
LN691 - ex G-CKWD
LN698 - ex G-CKWE


I find it interesting that they are planning on operating aircraft with three different seating configs. Obvious the -8 is smaller, but two different -9 seating, one with a higher J config. This will cause problems and headaches when one aircraft goes tech, as was often the case with the previous operator.
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MAH4546
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:10 pm

DLHAM wrote:
Seat0F wrote:
DLHAM wrote:

While CLE may not be New York, Miami or Los Angeles its still a sizeable down with a catchment area. While I dont know how rich this region is I know that for example from Cleveland to London there were 51,4 passengers daily each way -- before Corona. Thats not all too bad ... More than ORD-PRG, HAM-LAX, MUC-DFW, BOS-ATH or BER-MIA.
Based on these 51,4 passengers 3-4 weekly 787s would easily work operated by a LCC style airline. On a Legacy Airline connecting a hub offering connections I think even a daily flight on a 757 or A321 would work.

Also Cleveland is not too far from Detroit, means that I suspect quite some people living in the Cleveland area take the 2 hour trip by car to DTW and fly from there, these passengers do not even show up in Clevelands statistics (these 51,4 PDEW to London).



I had no idea the numbers would be quite that low, thanks for sharing! There really is almost no market at all for direct flights. A direct flight wouldn’t get 100% share but at the same time it might stimulate the market. But at such tiny numbers to probably the biggest O/D market in Europe it shows how flawed the notion of lowcost 787s flying such a route is.

I’m not sure how to double-quote but the example of Wow Air and Icelandair flying to CLE proves my point. One of those airlines was bankrupted by flying such loss-making routes. The other doesn’t fly there anymore and is a legacy carrier concept anyway.

I’ll stand by my point. A 787 lowcost operation will have to fly on trunk P2P routes to have any chance of success with the cost structure they will need to have a USP on price. That means major cities at both ends.


I think longhaul LCC does not have to have "major" cities at both ends, but at least at one end. Of course they would not get 100% share, in my example I calculated with a 50% share.

While 51 PDEW isnt the highest volume market its not a low number!
Some examples:

In July 2018 TXL-PHL had a PDEW of 8. One year later with the new AA flight it rose to 60 which is 633%.
In July 2005 DUS-ATL had a PDEW of 18. One year later with the then new DL flight it rose to 88, +378%
July 2004 HAM-EWR (EWR only) PDEW of 99. One year later with then new CO flight it was 171, +73%.
July 2012 TXL-ORD PDEW 59. One year later with AB flight 182, +209%.

Of course there has to be some business traffic, tourist traffic in at least one direction and more. But I think Cleveland is not hopeless at all, if the flight goes to a major city. Hasnt Continental had a flight to Gatwick in the past on the 757? Or/and even Paris as well?

Heres a list of the highest PDEW (oneway!) unserved routes between Europe and the US, but numbers are before COVID. For two routes I could not find numbers but I know they have high PDEW, also maybe I missed a few.
* means that there is no direct transatlantic flight at all from one of the two cities, italic written routes just had a new service announced/started.

Image


Great list but definitely market, like Miami/LA/San Fran to Berlin/Venice/Budapest/Geneva/Nice (although LAXBUD there).
a.
 
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:54 pm

I feel like I've seen that list before, there was a lot of commotion about the fact that for most flights London was referred to as LON however the second route from above shows MCO-LHR. So in that case they were just referring to Heathrow, ignoring the fact that there were lots of flights from Gatwick to Orlando.

But of course you got to keep in mind, by far most of these routes are served one-stop. The fact that there's no non-stop service doesn't mean it's unserved and low-cost travelers won't mind a connection if that saves them money.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:05 pm

Success is relative and according to your own perspective. It's OPM (other people's money)... Failed airline might still be considered succesful to the group that talked allot of folks into giving them their money... provided they got while the getting was good. Hopefully this Norgwegian 2.0 doesn't follow the we will loose money operating flights but make it up in volume line of reasoning.....
learning never stops...

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IrishLessor
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Re: New Norwegian low-cost Norse Atlantic Airways announced

Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:21 am

evanb wrote:
The LCC business model is not a branding exercise but an actual business model. If one wants to attract passengers or grow the market through substantially lower fares, one also has to significantly reduce costs vis-a-vis competitors. Successful short-haul LCCs like Southwest, easyJet, Ryanair, etc found mechanisms to substantially lower their cost structure (permanently) through concepts like single fleeting, higher density layouts, higher fleet utilization, lower cost airports, etc. There were no single silver bullets, but a series of these.

These cost structure savings have not yet been translated to long haul flying with anywhere near the same magnitude. Until Norwegian or some other player can find some silver bullets they are not going to find sustainable success. I'm all ears for what these may be, but I'm yet to see a compelling argument how to substantially reduce costs. Norwegian had a streamlined fleet (that wasn't enough), they used innovative (and controversial) labor practices to lower labor costs (although that also increased the complexity of their operation running several AOCs in several countries), they had a good fleet utilization (but this isn't as valuable on TATL where most competitors have similarly good utilization), they tried secondary airports but that didn't seem to provide enough. What innovations in cost structure will we see this time?


This is the key point and very well articulated.
Cost advantages over legacy airlines on long haul low cost are not substanstantial enough. No point in contributors citing short haul low cost as examples/ comparators, totally different.

Citing secondary airports as being fast for turn arounds, these will do little to help the cost positioning for an airline that will see most of their fleet sit on the ground for possibly 10 hours per day, an uncontested airport is hardly going to be a key element in the cost mix.

Where are secondary airports working in long haul space?
Norwegian itself made every effort to move away from secondary airport strategy. Oakland, Stewart, Providence, Hartford... Etc etc. These are less well recognised airports and not obvious choices for European clients going to the US and are reliant on the local populations in the US (where the largest demand is). Icelandair and wow have done alot with less known airports from an international flying perspective eg Kansas, Edmondon. They were both canned. Aer Lingus have opened Hartford and it was suggested that this approach to less well known airports in the US coupled with its strong cost positioning would be a niche, but they've not opened additional secondary markets. Instead they've leaned towards big airports with big demand and importantly connectivity, eg PHL, SEA, EWR, LAX.

The name Norwegian or Norse Atlantic are as brands region specific in the minds of the client. I cannot think of many if any airlines who've succeeded outside of their home markets with brand names that refer to a specific place. When they launch flying to/ from markets other than their Nordic origins, they'll need to invest heavily to persuade the client to buy, in my opinion. An alternative name might have been better. Think easyJet, simple branding, easy to market what it stands for, they need a better brand.

Long haul flying needs corporate customers, hence frequency, it needs a business cabin, it needs a loyalty program, it needs connectivity into the US, not just rely on P2P, hence hub airports and interlining arrangements, it needs simply stated, but non geographic names / branding to resonate with the client and a strong marketing, and it needs to be well financed to be able to withstand the competitive pressure that the incumbents will provide.

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