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Breathe
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Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:15 am

Hopefully this research leads to some more environmentally friendly fuel.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-56408603

A new approach to making jet fuel from food waste has the potential to massively reduce carbon emissions from flying, scientists say.

Currently, most of the food scraps that are used for energy around the world are converted into methane gas.

But researchers in the US have found a way of turning this waste into a type of paraffin that works in jet engines.

The authors of the new study say the fuel cuts greenhouse gas emissions by 165% compared to fossil energy.

This figure comes from the reduction in carbon emitted from airplanes plus the emissions that are avoided when food waste is diverted from landfill.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:41 am

Be curious to see if there would be enough waste feedstock to 21 billion gallons of Jet A
 
MrBretz
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Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:45 am

And how does the cost compare to current jet fuel?
 
oldJoe
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Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:53 am

MrBretz wrote:
And how does the cost compare to current jet fuel?


Right now it is expensieve and can`t compete !
 
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Nomadd
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Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:42 am

Exactly how does "the fuel cuts greenhouse gas emissions by 165% compared to fossil energy." make sense?
 
WN732
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Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:45 am

Nomadd wrote:
Exactly how does "the fuel cuts greenhouse gas emissions by 165% compared to fossil energy." make sense?



My guess is that manufacture and transport are factored into that figure.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:16 am

No that's because the food left in landfills produces greenhouse gas (methane).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Tristarsteve
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Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:21 am

All the food waste in this part of Sweden is collected and turned into biogas to run the busses. There is none left for aircraft. Where are we going to get it from?
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:25 am

Tristarsteve wrote:
All the food waste in this part of Sweden is collected and turned into biogas to run the busses. There is none left for aircraft. Where are we going to get it from?


That is a really great argument. Good thing is, Sweden has a public transport system that runs on low emission fuel. In the US on the other side, the limited public transport does not. So if you even reduce Jet A by 20% because you substitute it with low emission fuel you do only good to the environment.

It is the same as mixing bio-fuel into normal diesel as it is done in Europe. Right now it is somewhere around 85% to 15% mixture. Every little thing helps.
 
Lrockeagle
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Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:37 pm

Tristarsteve wrote:
All the food waste in this part of Sweden is collected and turned into biogas to run the busses. There is none left for aircraft. Where are we going to get it from?

The landfill in my town fuels their waste collectors with the methane from the landfill. Definitely not enough supply to fuel aircraft
Lrockeagle
15 years ago

I got $20 says AA takes their 787's with GE powerplants. Just a hunch. Any takers?
 
Aliqiout
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Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:45 pm

Nomadd wrote:
Exactly how does "the fuel cuts greenhouse gas emissions by 165% compared to fossil energy." make sense?

Because it replaces the fossil fuel emissions (100%) and reduces the greenhouse effect of the rotting food (converting methane to CO2).
 
Aliqiout
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Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:46 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Be curious to see if there would be enough waste feedstock to 21 billion gallons of Jet A

No, but there will be enough to replace a bunch if it.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:49 pm

Lrockeagle wrote:
Tristarsteve wrote:
All the food waste in this part of Sweden is collected and turned into biogas to run the busses. There is none left for aircraft. Where are we going to get it from?

The landfill in my town fuels their waste collectors with the methane from the landfill. Definitely not enough supply to fuel aircraft

This obviously isn't a solution for where the food waste is already being used, but there is very little of this kind of activity in much of the world.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:50 pm

MrBretz wrote:
And how does the cost compare to current jet fuel?

I have no idea. It certainly will have a higher purchase cost now, but it is very hard to assign an accurate cost to burning fossil fuels, and if this becomes a thing the purchase price will plummet.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:43 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
Nomadd wrote:
Exactly how does "the fuel cuts greenhouse gas emissions by 165% compared to fossil energy." make sense?

Because it replaces the fossil fuel emissions (100%) and reduces the greenhouse effect of the rotting food (converting methane to CO2).



Had to look that one up -

From our friends at Google
Answer. It's just a misuse of percentages. It could be unknowingly, or deliberately, as you just said. A quantity can not decrease by more than 100% of itself.
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    GSPSPOT
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    Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

    Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:03 pm

    Similar to bio-diesel, but.... different?
    Great Lakes, great life.
     
    adam47150
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    Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

    Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:36 pm

    Imagine if they can convert sewage/wastewater using this same process (or a similar variant). The US alone produces about 220 billion gallons of sewage/wastewater a year.
     
    WayexTDI
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    Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

    Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:23 pm

    adam47150 wrote:
    Imagine if they can convert sewage/wastewater using this same process (or a similar variant). The US alone produces about 220 billion gallons of sewage/wastewater a year.

    Sewage/wastewater is treating and recycled into potable water; residues are mostly semi-solid (sludge) and not in big quantities compared to the "raw sewage" quantity.
    Treating this sludge could lead to some biofuel; but the overall quantity would be quite small compared to the raw sewage quantity.
     
    Aliqiout
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    Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

    Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:33 pm

    MohawkWeekend wrote:
    Aliqiout wrote:
    Nomadd wrote:
    Exactly how does "the fuel cuts greenhouse gas emissions by 165% compared to fossil energy." make sense?

    Because it replaces the fossil fuel emissions (100%) and reduces the greenhouse effect of the rotting food (converting methane to CO2).



    Had to look that one up -

    From our friends at Google
    Answer. It's just a misuse of percentages. It could be unknowingly, or deliberately, as you just said. A quantity can not decrease by more than 100% of itself.

    It is confusing, and I wouldn't use that figure, but I wouldn't call it misuse. The amount of greenhouse gas emissions will supposedly decrease by an amount equal to 165% of the greenhouse emissions produced by the amount of fuel replaced. In other words the entire emissions from the fossil fuel will be eliminated and 65% of that amount will also be reduced from the emissions caused by unprocessed food waste.
     
    peterinlisbon
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    Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

    Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:13 pm

    They could just ask passengers to eat less beans.
     
    nikeherc
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    Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

    Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:15 pm

    Does burning SAF not produce CO2? It probably also releases water vapor at high altitude. It’s not popular to include water vapor In greenhouse gas discussions, but it should be considered. As far as I can see the benefits of SAF result from the recycling aspect of the process and reducing landfill methane escape.
    DC6 to 777 and most things in between
     
    Seat0F
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    Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

    Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:16 pm

    nikeherc wrote:
    Does burning SAF not produce CO2? It probably also releases water vapor at high altitude. It’s not popular to include water vapor In greenhouse gas discussions, but it should be considered. As far as I can see the benefits of SAF result from the recycling aspect of the process and reducing landfill methane escape.



    Yes it does release CO2 but the point is that it is sustainable. The CO2 starts in the sky, but is sucked out of the air by plants and vegetables, the plants get eaten by humans, but some of that food goes to waste, that waste (and its carbon) goes into a fuel, goes into a jet engine and the CO2 is released into the atmosphere, back where it came from a few weeks ago. Its a complete circle, whereas taking carbon out of the ground (fossil fuels) is releasing carbon from millions of years ago and so is not sustainable.
     
    MohawkWeekend
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    Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

    Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:57 pm

    Noted lines at the end of the article -

    "Many environmental groups are sceptical about attempts to develop sustainable aviation fuels, believing that it amounts to green-washing. They argue that people should just fly less.
    "Sustainable aviation fuel is not a silver bullet," Derek Vardon says. "
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      MIflyer12
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      Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

      Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:29 pm

      Aliqiout wrote:
      MohawkWeekend wrote:
      Aliqiout wrote:
      Because it replaces the fossil fuel emissions (100%) and reduces the greenhouse effect of the rotting food (converting methane to CO2).



      Had to look that one up -

      From our friends at Google
      Answer. It's just a misuse of percentages. It could be unknowingly, or deliberately, as you just said. A quantity can not decrease by more than 100% of itself.

      It is confusing, and I wouldn't use that figure, but I wouldn't call it misuse. The amount of greenhouse gas emissions will supposedly decrease by an amount equal to 165% of the greenhouse emissions produced by the amount of fuel replaced. In other words the entire emissions from the fossil fuel will be eliminated and 65% of that amount will also be reduced from the emissions caused by unprocessed food waste.


      That is double-counting the methane capture, most likely. Modern landfills already capture methane. A scientist working at the U.S. National Renewable Energy Laboratory surely knows that.
       
      MohawkWeekend
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      Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

      Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:02 am

      Collecting food waste to make jet fuel would be almost impossible to scale up due to the problem with collecting it and then shipping it to a special refinery. As Mlflyer mentioned landfills already capture that.

      It's being tried now with diesel fuel in Minnesota (diesel being a similar product to jet fuel). Currently MN has a mandate for all diesel fuel to be blended with corn/soy/sunflower oils and waste fats from restaurants. My previous employer used this fuel. It goes from 20% additive in the summer to 5 % in the winter. The fuel has significant problems with combustion in cold temperatures. I believe that's why you aren't seeing it put into turbine aircraft engines.

      Do we really want to be using "virgin" food stocks to make fuel? We know how that works with our gasoline supply.

      That being said anything that would reduce the use of animal waste being sprayed on land and then causing algae blooms in our Lake Erie is a good thing
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        WayexTDI
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        Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

        Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:36 am

        MohawkWeekend wrote:
        Collecting food waste to make jet fuel would be almost impossible to scale up due to the problem with collecting it and then shipping it to a special refinery. As Mlflyer mentioned landfills already capture that.

        It's being tried now with diesel fuel in Minnesota (diesel being a similar product to jet fuel). Currently MN has a mandate for all diesel fuel to be blended with corn/soy/sunflower oils and waste fats from restaurants. My previous employer used this fuel. It goes from 20% additive in the summer to 5 % in the winter. The fuel has significant problems with combustion in cold temperatures. I believe that's why you aren't seeing it put into turbine aircraft engines.

        Do we really want to be using "virgin" food stocks to make fuel? We know how that works with our gasoline supply.

        That being said anything that would reduce the use of animal waste being sprayed on land and then causing algae blooms in our Lake Erie is a good thing

        It looks like the MN mandate decided to bypass the transesterification of oil; that might be a big mistake.
        Diesel engines can technically run on pure oil; the demonstrator engine from Rudolph Diesel ran on pure peanut oil. However, oil tends to thicken up with cold temperature, which leads to issues with proper running; so, engines must be modified.
        Biodiesel, on the other hand, is much more fluid at low temperature and is considered a drop-in biofuel; but, it requires transesterification of the oil, which is not a simple step at high volume and with consistency.

        But, the "beauty" of biodiesel (and, by extension, bio-jet fuel) is that it can be obtained from any fatty liquid, suitable or not for human or animal consumption; for example, chicken skin from a chicken packing plant can be transformed on site and used to fuel the delivery trucks.
         
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        lugie
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        Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

        Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:28 am

        MohawkWeekend wrote:
        Noted lines at the end of the article -

        "Many environmental groups are sceptical about attempts to develop sustainable aviation fuels, believing that it amounts to green-washing. They argue that people should just fly less.
        "Sustainable aviation fuel is not a silver bullet," Derek Vardon says. "


        Well who cares honestly... I'm all for taking steps to mitigate the effects of climate change but I also enjoy aviation - and there are millions like me (maybe not "enjoying aviation" to the degree that they sign up on a dedicated website but millions who, once Covid is under control, will want to return to the skies worldwide for any variety of reasons).

        While domestic flights within small European countries can, and quite frankly in some cases should, be replaced by high speed rail, aviation as such isn't going anywhere - nobody wants to cross the Atlantic by sailboat.
        And that's not even taking into account the massive emerging aviation markets in Asia, Latin America and eventually Africa.

        Climate Change can conceivably only be averted or mitigated through technological solutions as this one.

        A solution that boils down to total abstention from something that people have grown to enjoy might make you sound intellectual and woke in a grad school post-growth economics book club sort of filter bubble, but amounts to political suicide in real life.

        And since most of the countries that are currently responsible for the highest per-capita greenhouse gas emissions are democracies, proposals to slow and eventually stop further harmful emissions need to be able to gain majority approval.
        Thus, simply banning flights will (thankfully) never work even though it is the most ideologically pure and least "greenwashing" proposal, whereas a smart technological solution like this that can dramatically lower the carbon footprint of aviation, and maybe even make it (near-)carbon neutral in the mid- to long term, should be widely accepted by anyone other than maybe the fossil fuel lobby.
        But they, just like the super-radical environmentalists above, can get lost too.
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        TheSonntag
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        Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

        Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:33 am

        That is all insignificant green washing, totally unambitious. What we need is synthetic fuel and hydrogen planes, and BEV planes for short range.
         
        Aliqiout
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        Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

        Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:31 pm

        MIflyer12 wrote:
        Aliqiout wrote:
        MohawkWeekend wrote:


        Had to look that one up -

        From our friends at Google
        Answer. It's just a misuse of percentages. It could be unknowingly, or deliberately, as you just said. A quantity can not decrease by more than 100% of itself.

        It is confusing, and I wouldn't use that figure, but I wouldn't call it misuse. The amount of greenhouse gas emissions will supposedly decrease by an amount equal to 165% of the greenhouse emissions produced by the amount of fuel replaced. In other words the entire emissions from the fossil fuel will be eliminated and 65% of that amount will also be reduced from the emissions caused by unprocessed food waste.


        That is double-counting the methane capture, most likely. Modern landfills already capture methane. A scientist working at the U.S. National Renewable Energy Laboratory surely knows that.

        Only just under 700 landfills in the United States capture their methane. There are still over 160 million tons of methane released from American landfills evey year.

        If we used the currently captured methane the electricity currently created by the methane could be replaced by wind or solar. This would still result in a 165% reduction.
        Last edited by Aliqiout on Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
         
        Aliqiout
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        Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

        Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:34 pm

        MohawkWeekend wrote:
        Collecting food waste to make jet fuel would be almost impossible to scale up due to the problem with collecting it and then shipping it to a special refinery. As Mlflyer mentioned landfills already capture that.

        It's being tried now with diesel fuel in Minnesota (diesel being a similar product to jet fuel). Currently MN has a mandate for all diesel fuel to be blended with corn/soy/sunflower oils and waste fats from restaurants. My previous employer used this fuel. It goes from 20% additive in the summer to 5 % in the winter. The fuel has significant problems with combustion in cold temperatures. I believe that's why you aren't seeing it put into turbine aircraft engines.

        Do we really want to be using "virgin" food stocks to make fuel? We know how that works with our gasoline supply.

        That being said anything that would reduce the use of animal waste being sprayed on land and then causing algae blooms in our Lake Erie is a good thing

        The idea isn't to ship the food to the refinery, it is to capture the methane at the landfill. Only a little over half the landfills in the United States capture their methane.
         
        Aliqiout
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        Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

        Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:35 pm

        TheSonntag wrote:
        That is all insignificant green washing, totally unambitious. What we need is synthetic fuel and hydrogen planes, and BEV planes for short range.

        Maybe we can use the landfill methane for the energy to create the hydrogen fuel...
         
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        Aesma
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        Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

        Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:57 am

        Tristarsteve wrote:
        All the food waste in this part of Sweden is collected and turned into biogas to run the busses. There is none left for aircraft. Where are we going to get it from?


        You go to electric busses and keep the precious biofuels for applications where there is no alternative.
        New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
         
        WayexTDI
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        Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

        Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:31 am

        Aliqiout wrote:
        If we used the currently captured methane the electricity currently created by the methane could be replaced by wind or solar. This would still result in a 165% reduction.

        Care to explain that sentence???
         
        MohawkWeekend
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        Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

        Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:37 am

        The idea isn't to ship the food to the refinery, it is to capture the methane at the landfill. Only a little over half the landfills in the United States capture their methane.[/quote]

        I think the original premise of the thread was not methane to liquid fuel but waste to liquid fuel. That's done now on a large scale in Brazil and the United States in the Ethanol and bio diesel fuel market. These researchers believe they can make a jet fuel substitute with a process similar to the bio diesel refineries which currently exist. And that's the problem as I see it with the technology. Most bio diesel refineries are tiny maybe a couple hundred barrels per day. It's an expensive process and there isn't a lot of feed stock economically available. American oil refiners produce about 2 million barrels of jet a day at full capacity. And these refineries have access to feedtock (crude oil) that the world produces at over 100 million barrels a day.

        That being said, one of the easiest ways for the country to reduce greenhouse gases (methane being much worse than CO2 for global warming) is to retrofit every landfill with a gas capture system. It's proven technology and just needs the funding to have all the abandoned landfills fitted. Conversely, the technology of gas to liquids is so expensive, it's better to burn the gas to make electricity or put in to a natural gas pipeline.
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          WayexTDI
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          Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

          Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:38 am

          MohawkWeekend wrote:
          Aliqiout wrote:
          The idea isn't to ship the food to the refinery, it is to capture the methane at the landfill. Only a little over half the landfills in the United States capture their methane.


          I think the original premise of the thread was not methane to liquid fuel but waste to liquid fuel. That's done now on a large scale in Brazil and the United States in the Ethanol and bio diesel fuel market. These researchers believe they can make a jet fuel substitute with a process similar to the bio diesel refineries which currently exist. And that's the problem as I see it with the technology. Most bio diesel refineries are tiny maybe a couple hundred barrels per day. It's an expensive process and there isn't a lot of feed stock economically available. American oil refiners produce about 2 million barrels of jet a day at full capacity. And these refineries have access to feedtock (crude oil) that the world produces at over 100 million barrels a day.

          That being said, one of the easiest ways for the country to reduce greenhouse gases (methane being much worse than CO2 for global warming) is to retrofit every landfill with a gas capture system. It's proven technology and just needs the funding to have all the abandoned landfills fitted. Conversely, the technology of gas to liquids is so expensive, it's better to burn the gas to make electricity or put in to a natural gas pipeline.

          American Biodiesel Producers refined a total of 1.817 billion gallons in 2020, an average of 4.978 million gallons a day, or 118,500 barrels a day (source); average Jet Fuel consumption for US passenger flights was 1.2 million barrels a day before the pandemic hit (source). So, US biodiesel production is currently around 10% of Jet Fuel usage; not enough to replace 100% of petro-fuels, but already not a negligible level
           
          MohawkWeekend
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          Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

          Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:36 pm

          Thanks for the update. I didn't realize the bio diesel industry had grown so much. My experience was in the more urban mid west where waste cooking oils and fats from restaurants and food processing facilities were being rendered into diesel for buses and cars by small refineries. New technologies to further refine it to jet fuel standards are worth research.

          That being said its growth has been by using alot of food and huge subsidies The first quote was from your first source, the second from Google

          A total of 1.176 billion pounds of feedstock was used to produce biodiesel in December. Soybean oil remained the largest feedstock at 744 million pounds, followed by 147 million pounds of corn oil, 86 million pounds of yellow grease, 57 million pounds of white grease, 38 million pounds of tallow, 7 pounds of poultry fat, and 4 million pounds of other animal fats.

          The biodiesel credit was part of a broad legislative effort more than a decade ago to help farmers and reduce petroleum imports by supporting biofuels. At a cost of nearly $2 billion per year, it is among the most expensive U.S. energy subsidy programs.
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            Aesma
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            Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

            Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:12 pm

            Yeah using soybean and corn for that isn't great and is even unsustainable, I don't know where research on plants that wouldn't compete with food production is at, same with algae. The amount produced shows ramping up is possible though.

            Calling it a US energy subsidy is a bit of a stretch, looks like a farming subsidy to me. Especially if it helps farmers sell their production when prices are low which I'm sure is what happens.
            New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
             
            MohawkWeekend
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            Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

            Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:39 pm

            On a ExxonMobil employee blog site I follow, some employees (maybe disgruntled) didn't speak too highly of the possibility that algae will ever be a useful source. The fact that its been years since they had those ad's on TV and and you kinda don't hear about it any more.

            The Holy Grail for aviation fuels will be if someone could figure out how to make liquid hydrogen at room temperature.
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              Reddevil556
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              Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

              Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:29 pm

              MohawkWeekend wrote:
              Collecting food waste to make jet fuel would be almost impossible to scale up due to the problem with collecting it and then shipping it to a special refinery. As Mlflyer mentioned landfills already capture that.

              It's being tried now with diesel fuel in Minnesota (diesel being a similar product to jet fuel). Currently MN has a mandate for all diesel fuel to be blended with corn/soy/sunflower oils and waste fats from restaurants. My previous employer used this fuel. It goes from 20% additive in the summer to 5 % in the winter. The fuel has significant problems with combustion in cold temperatures. I believe that's why you aren't seeing it put into turbine aircraft engines.

              Do we really want to be using "virgin" food stocks to make fuel? We know how that works with our gasoline supply.

              That being said anything that would reduce the use of animal waste being sprayed on land and then causing algae blooms in our Lake Erie is a good thing


              I have a friend at the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency and he told me that the political drive to produce biofuels from row crops has dramatically increased nitrogen levels in our ground water. The ripple effect is exploding in the Gulf of Mexico where Mississippi empties. I remember from my days in college hearing about researchers at Purdue working on making biofuels from switchgrass...but that seems to have progressed little in the decade since I first heard about it. I had a diesel work truck in MN and I had to add fuel treatments during the really cold snaps in winter. Biofuels could be a more viable option in the future, they just don't outperform traditional fuels at the moment.
              Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2
               
              Aliqiout
              Posts: 448
              Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

              Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

              Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:25 am

              WayexTDI wrote:
              Aliqiout wrote:
              If we used the currently captured methane the electricity currently created by the methane could be replaced by wind or solar. This would still result in a 165% reduction.

              Care to explain that sentence???

              Even if we used the methane already being captured we could have a greater then 100% reduction in greenhouse emissions.
               
              MohawkWeekend
              Posts: 490
              Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

              Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

              Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:56 pm

              Further in the study, they talk about a max 70/30 blend with conventional oil based jet fuel. Even the 70% bio still releases CO2 and soot. Plus the 30 % of the oil based jet will still pump out it's normal amount of soot and CO2.

              They are also counting the methane as not being captured to get to the 165 percent reduction figures. Nor do they account for the energy used to collect this waste. We've seen similar in the debate on Ethenol.
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                CowAnon
                Posts: 174
                Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:03 am

                Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

                Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:41 pm

                Reddevil556 wrote:
                MohawkWeekend wrote:
                Collecting food waste to make jet fuel would be almost impossible to scale up due to the problem with collecting it and then shipping it to a special refinery. As Mlflyer mentioned landfills already capture that.

                It's being tried now with diesel fuel in Minnesota (diesel being a similar product to jet fuel). Currently MN has a mandate for all diesel fuel to be blended with corn/soy/sunflower oils and waste fats from restaurants. My previous employer used this fuel. It goes from 20% additive in the summer to 5 % in the winter. The fuel has significant problems with combustion in cold temperatures. I believe that's why you aren't seeing it put into turbine aircraft engines.

                Do we really want to be using "virgin" food stocks to make fuel? We know how that works with our gasoline supply.

                That being said anything that would reduce the use of animal waste being sprayed on land and then causing algae blooms in our Lake Erie is a good thing


                I have a friend at the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency and he told me that the political drive to produce biofuels from row crops has dramatically increased nitrogen levels in our ground water. The ripple effect is exploding in the Gulf of Mexico where Mississippi empties. I remember from my days in college hearing about researchers at Purdue working on making biofuels from switchgrass...but that seems to have progressed little in the decade since I first heard about it. I had a diesel work truck in MN and I had to add fuel treatments during the really cold snaps in winter. Biofuels could be a more viable option in the future, they just don't outperform traditional fuels at the moment.


                They might be able to greatly reduce the nitrogen fertilizer requirements in the future. It's been discovered that corn plants native to a mountainous part of Mexico have their own nitrogen fixation process. Brazil was able to develop its ethanol industry because sugarcane has an N-fixation mechanism.

                The Corn of the Future Is Hundreds of Years Old and Makes Its Own Mucus:
                This rare variety of corn has evolved a way to make its own nitrogen, which could revolutionize farming
                (Smithsonian Magazine, 8/10/2018)

                That won't help with pesticide runoff causing elevated cancer occurrences in Louisiana, but it might help with the dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico.
                 
                MohawkWeekend
                Posts: 490
                Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

                Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

                Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:34 pm

                Western Lake Erie has a serious problem with fertilizer (animal waste) runoff into the Maumee River causing severe algae blooms. A few summers ago, Toledo had to find a new source for drinking water until it cleared up. Animal manure would be a great source for aviation bio fuel (or nat gas) instead of being spread on fields.

                I will miss that smell of burning kerosene though.
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                  tsr22
                  Posts: 5
                  Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:15 pm

                  Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

                  Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:37 pm

                  As a longstanding aerospace 'junkie' seeing the current commercial aviation struggle confronting combined pandemic and carbon footprint challenges is tough, especially for people and businesses directly impacted. So whilst many of us are blissfully ignorant of what is actually going on to meet these challenges on the coal face I both enjoy the cut and thrust of much of this discussion knowing that were all in this together and genuinely looking for the holy grail!

                  A couple of things came up this week in UK which on the one hand puts the oft quoted negative carbon impact of commercial aerospace into perspective and a second which could save marginal aircraft weight in future designs

                  The Guardian newspaper had an article entitled 'Bottom trawling releases as much carbon as air travel, landmark study finds. Dragging heavy nets across seabed disturbs marine sediments, world’s largest carbon sink, scientists report. In short, the global practice of dragging weighted nets across the seabed to catch as much fish as possible is sending more carbon into the atmosphere annually than all commercial aviation emissions. It also kills off the sea bed similar to the Great Barrier Reef off Australia meaning no marine life or fish for a long time and terminates the ocean bed from future ongoing carbon capture the scale of which we are only just starting to become aware off so something of.

                  Then the following evening the BBC documentary 'The secret science of sewage' reported a number of breakthrough discoveries including using the pee from one chap's visit to a urinal poured into a small box which converted this into electricity which then charged his mobile phone in front of him. This might be used to boost on board electric power, if only in the event of an emergency with future electric engines power-outs!
                  Other discoveries included isolating bacteria from 'poo' that actually attacks and defeats the two most prevalent post surgery killer bacteria in NHS hospitals and several very different ways to use solid waste to fertilise soil commercially far more sustainably than current eventually soil destructive output or productivity boosters currently used. To which I thought, oh well if we don't believe in global warming and fail to act in a timely manner there might just be hope for a few human survivors out there with their potties on Mars!
                   
                  MohawkWeekend
                  Posts: 490
                  Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

                  Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

                  Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:40 pm

                  Glad to have you in the discussion tsr22!

                  The most immediate things aviation can due to reduce greenhouse gas emissions (IMO):

                  Convert all ground support vehicles to either electric or CNG.
                  Enhance ATC procedures to save on routing and delays. This may mean waiving anti-trust concerns regarding scheduling.
                  Significantly raise fuel taxes on general and corporate aviation :duck: Just cause you are rich doesn't mean you should get to ride in a G-V with 2 or 3 aids without some environmental cost.
                  We had noise standards (Stage 2, Stage 3, etc). Maybe time for efficiency standards e.g. 320neo, 350, 220, Max's, 787 are baseline. Every body else pays a sliding per hour fee.

                  Standing by for counter fire
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                    Reddevil556
                    Posts: 268
                    Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:09 pm

                    Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

                    Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:05 am

                    tsr22 wrote:
                    As a longstanding aerospace 'junkie' seeing the current commercial aviation struggle confronting combined pandemic and carbon footprint challenges is tough, especially for people and businesses directly impacted. So whilst many of us are blissfully ignorant of what is actually going on to meet these challenges on the coal face I both enjoy the cut and thrust of much of this discussion knowing that were all in this together and genuinely looking for the holy grail!

                    A couple of things came up this week in UK which on the one hand puts the oft quoted negative carbon impact of commercial aerospace into perspective and a second which could save marginal aircraft weight in future designs

                    The Guardian newspaper had an article entitled 'Bottom trawling releases as much carbon as air travel, landmark study finds. Dragging heavy nets across seabed disturbs marine sediments, world’s largest carbon sink, scientists report. In short, the global practice of dragging weighted nets across the seabed to catch as much fish as possible is sending more carbon into the atmosphere annually than all commercial aviation emissions. It also kills off the sea bed similar to the Great Barrier Reef off Australia meaning no marine life or fish for a long time and terminates the ocean bed from future ongoing carbon capture the scale of which we are only just starting to become aware off so something of.

                    Then the following evening the BBC documentary 'The secret science of sewage' reported a number of breakthrough discoveries including using the pee from one chap's visit to a urinal poured into a small box which converted this into electricity which then charged his mobile phone in front of him. This might be used to boost on board electric power, if only in the event of an emergency with future electric engines power-outs!
                    Other discoveries included isolating bacteria from 'poo' that actually attacks and defeats the two most prevalent post surgery killer bacteria in NHS hospitals and several very different ways to use solid waste to fertilise soil commercially far more sustainably than current eventually soil destructive output or productivity boosters currently used. To which I thought, oh well if we don't believe in global warming and fail to act in a timely manner there might just be hope for a few human survivors out there with their potties on Mars!


                    I cannot find the source, but I remember hearing a claim a year ago that wetlands (swamps and marshlands) can reduce nearly twice the amount of carbon dioxide as forests. Ironically the biggest savior of wetlands in my part of the country is the hunting community. Nearly all of the major wetlands restoration projects in my area have been funded through the hunting industry. It makes sense since the wildlife flourishes around wetlands and will naturally provide more opportunities for hunters.

                    Here is a helpful little piece on wetlands from Minnesota
                    http://bwsr.state.mn.us/carbon-sequestr ... of%20years.

                    I had also once heard about a biofuel being produced from algae, But haven't hear much in that area in a while. Imagine a commercial airliner running on aquatic vegetation?
                    Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2
                     
                    WayexTDI
                    Posts: 2160
                    Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

                    Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

                    Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:31 pm

                    MohawkWeekend wrote:
                    Glad to have you in the discussion tsr22!

                    The most immediate things aviation can due to reduce greenhouse gas emissions (IMO):

                    Convert all ground support vehicles to either electric or CNG.
                    Enhance ATC procedures to save on routing and delays. This may mean waiving anti-trust concerns regarding scheduling.
                    Significantly raise fuel taxes on general and corporate aviation :duck: Just cause you are rich doesn't mean you should get to ride in a G-V with 2 or 3 aids without some environmental cost.
                    We had noise standards (Stage 2, Stage 3, etc). Maybe time for efficiency standards e.g. 320neo, 350, 220, Max's, 787 are baseline. Every body else pays a sliding per hour fee.

                    Standing by for counter fire

                    Raising fuel taxes will do nothing to reduce greenhouse gas emission if the fuel consumption remains the same.
                    As far as converting GSE to CNG, burning CNG still produces a lot of greenhouse gases. Converting them to electric MIGHT decrease greenhouse gas emissions if the electricity is produced by renewable sources (hydro-electric dams, solar or wind) or nuclear power plants; if it's produced by CNG- or coal-burning plants, you're just displacing the greenhouse gas production.
                     
                    MohawkWeekend
                    Posts: 490
                    Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

                    Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

                    Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:41 pm

                    It won't be easy or cheap for aviation to reduce it's environmental footprint. My suggestions were what I thought were relatively benign compared to the wait for an alternative fuel. Good debate though!

                    Higher fuel taxes could have 2 positive impacts - 1) reduce demand but i admit only by a tiny fraction. It's pretty unbelievable what GA and Corporate aviation pays for fuel now. Rich people and CEO's could care less if the flight costs another $1000. That being said, if the fuel taxes were designated for CO2 off-sets say LED street lamps that would have a positive impact.

                    My suggestion of setting penalties. Geared to reward the use of the most efficient aircraft, it could make airlines reconsider operating older aircraft. Think of the old freighters flying around - 25 year old 757,767, MD-11, 747. They may be around for years to come.

                    Coal is only producing about 30% of our power and that may decline rapidly in the next 4 years.

                    CNG is a an improvement over diesel and gasoline. But it's not the final answer as you note. The following is from the Alternative Fuels Data Center -

                    "Argonne National Laboratory's GREET model estimates the life cycle petroleum use and GHG emissions of light-duty vehicles running on compressed natural gas (CNG) and liquefied natural gas (LNG). Based on this model, natural gas emits approximately 6% to 11% lower levels of GHGs than gasoline throughout the fuel life cycle. The GHG emissions impacting the CNG and LNG life cycle are predominately the result of production-phase fuel leakage.
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                      WayexTDI
                      Posts: 2160
                      Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

                      Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

                      Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:08 am

                      MohawkWeekend wrote:
                      It won't be easy or cheap for aviation to reduce it's environmental footprint. My suggestions were what I thought were relatively benign compared to the wait for an alternative fuel. Good debate though!

                      Higher fuel taxes could have 2 positive impacts - 1) reduce demand but i admit only by a tiny fraction. It's pretty unbelievable what GA and Corporate aviation pays for fuel now. Rich people and CEO's could care less if the flight costs another $1000. That being said, if the fuel taxes were designated for CO2 off-sets say LED street lamps that would have a positive impact.

                      My suggestion of setting penalties. Geared to reward the use of the most efficient aircraft, it could make airlines reconsider operating older aircraft. Think of the old freighters flying around - 25 year old 757,767, MD-11, 747. They may be around for years to come.

                      Coal is only producing about 30% of our power and that may decline rapidly in the next 4 years.

                      CNG is a an improvement over diesel and gasoline. But it's not the final answer as you note. The following is from the Alternative Fuels Data Center -

                      "Argonne National Laboratory's GREET model estimates the life cycle petroleum use and GHG emissions of light-duty vehicles running on compressed natural gas (CNG) and liquefied natural gas (LNG). Based on this model, natural gas emits approximately 6% to 11% lower levels of GHGs than gasoline throughout the fuel life cycle. The GHG emissions impacting the CNG and LNG life cycle are predominately the result of production-phase fuel leakage.

                      Primary benefit from CNG (or LNG) is cleaner burning (less CO, less unburnt HC, less to no soot); however, the level of CO2 emitted by a CNG engine itself is still 77% that of a gasoline engine. That's a good decrease, but still not 100%; and, it does not include (for neither fuel source) the CO2 used up to the pump (CNG requires a pressure pump, whereas gasoline does not require that much of a pressure).

                      That's an interesting debate, very hard to settle; but it leads to a lot of misinformation for those who want to believe CNG (or similar) is a non-polluting fuel.

                      Calculation: CNG is around 5.66 lbs per Gasoline Gallon Equivalent (source); 1 gallon of gasoline emits 8.78 kgCO2, while 5.66 lbs of CNG (123.6 scf) emits 6.73 kgCO2 (additional information).
                       
                      smithhaddon123
                      Posts: 18
                      Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:30 am

                      Re: Jet fuel from waste 'dramatically lowers' emissions

                      Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:06 am

                      peterinlisbon wrote:
                      They could just ask passengers to eat less beans.

                      More beans, and each be required to sit on a hosepipe during the flight. :yes: :butthead:

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