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airbazar
Posts: 10529
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: US threatens to suspend CX flights

Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:16 pm

Shocking. The rules are in place. Everybody knows what they are. They violate the rules, get caught, and then go complaining to the government that the rules are unfair. Self entitlement much?
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: US threatens to suspend CX flights

Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:25 pm

airbazar wrote:
Shocking. The rules are in place. Everybody knows what they are. They violate the rules, get caught, and then go complaining to the government that the rules are unfair. Self entitlement much?


The point is that the ANC exemption is a slanted rule. That's what the complaint is about. Not the sideshow being offered up here as a distraction.

FX is asking why is ANC allowed but other places not?
 
Vicenza
Posts: 407
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: US threatens to suspend CX flights

Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:28 pm

Okcflyer wrote:

21+% of the USA population have received one or more doses of vaccine. More than 110 million doses. And vaccinating distribution is rapidly accelerating. Most Americans who will likely to travel, or work within the travel industry, should already have received one, or will be receiving one within the next couple of weeks. Depending on which of the 3 vaccines received, they would be considered "fully vaccinated' until 35 days after first dose (Pfizer), 28 days for J&J, and a long 56 days after first dose (Moderna). Im not aware of any other large country (20+MM) making such rapid progress toward effective vaccination.

EDITED: Link to source data https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... your-state


You would be wrong then. The United Kingdom is at 35% of the population vaccinated, and increasing.
 
sincx
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:01 pm

Re: US threatens to suspend CX flights

Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:30 pm

raylee67 wrote:
If US really bans CX from US completely, I can see that, given the current state of US/China relationship, Beijing will step in and force a suspension of the aviation agreement between Hong Kong and US, thereby ending all flights by all carriers, FedEx included. Economically it does not make sense to do this, but we are not talking about economics here. I don't think this is the result that FedEx wants to see when it launched its complaint to DoT but it could now be out of its control.

Actually, ever since the Hong Kong protests in 2019, the mainland government has viewed CX with suspicion, alleging that CX (or at least a significant fraction of CX employees) is anti-mainland (probably true) and in favor of Hong Kong independence (likely an exaggeration). The fact that CX is controlled by a London-based conglomerate who got rich during China's "century of humiliation" certainly doesn't help things. Mainland travelers with any sort of government or party connection have been "discouraged" from flying CX for quite some time, not withstanding CA's minority stake.

I doubt Beijing will go to bat for CX in this matter.
Last edited by sincx on Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: US threatens to suspend CX flights

Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:31 pm

Vicenza wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:

21+% of the USA population have received one or more doses of vaccine. More than 110 million doses. And vaccinating distribution is rapidly accelerating. Most Americans who will likely to travel, or work within the travel industry, should already have received one, or will be receiving one within the next couple of weeks. Depending on which of the 3 vaccines received, they would be considered "fully vaccinated' until 35 days after first dose (Pfizer), 28 days for J&J, and a long 56 days after first dose (Moderna). Im not aware of any other large country (20+MM) making such rapid progress toward effective vaccination.

EDITED: Link to source data https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... your-state


You would be wrong then. The United Kingdom is at 35% of the population vaccinated, and increasing.


The top 5 by percentage are
1. Israel
2. UAE
3. Chile
4. UK
5. USA

After that it's a steep drop off
 
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chunhimlai
Posts: 732
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:03 am

Re: US threatens to suspend CX flights

Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:32 pm

I think CX is actually happy with FX complain, which means the measurement could be relaxed
 
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usdcaguy
Posts: 1665
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:41 pm

Re: US threatens to suspend CX flights

Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:46 am

vedatil4 wrote:
As a possible plan B, CX could fly into TIJ then passengers would walk into the US across the CBX bridge. An international terminal with an "in-transit" area to avoid Mexico immigration is about 70% completed.

Yes, I know this won't be as lucrative as flying to LAX but it may be a workable, temporary option.


If you're traveling to anywhere but SAN, why bother? There are plenty of other carriers people can fly into LAX, even if they aren't nonstop. The economics of flying TIJ to the US aren't great. Most traffic from the US is to points much farther into Mexico that already have nonstop service from a number of US airports.
 
vedatil4
Posts: 277
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:38 pm

Re: US threatens to suspend CX flights

Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:53 am

usdcaguy wrote:
vedatil4 wrote:
As a possible plan B, CX could fly into TIJ then passengers would walk into the US across the CBX bridge. An international terminal with an "in-transit" area to avoid Mexico immigration is about 70% completed.

Yes, I know this won't be as lucrative as flying to LAX but it may be a workable, temporary option.


If you're traveling to anywhere but SAN, why bother? There are plenty of other carriers people can fly into LAX, even if they aren't nonstop. The economics of flying TIJ to the US aren't great. Most traffic from the US is to points much farther into Mexico that already have nonstop service from a number of US airports.


One of the selling points for the new terminal is that it's a less stressful experience getting through USA customs and immigration at the CBX bridge than at LAX. Also, there isn't as much traffic if someone was really heading to Riverside county or the eastern parts of LA.

Yes, the economics of flying to TIJ won't be as lucrative. But if an airline, someone from China, or someone else in any country in Asia doesn't want to get a US visa on their way to Cancun, let's say, it'll be a workable option. Maybe a flight or two a week someday in the future.

We'll find out which airlines show up early next year once the terminal is finished.

I think I can dig up info of back around the time when HK was handed back to China that Cathay Pacific considered a possible move to this side of the Pacific. Back then the terminal was going to be called "twinports". If I find something, I'll share it here. It was mostly rumor but I do remember finding info about it during the early ages of the internet. (go ahead and laugh).
 
vedatil4
Posts: 277
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:38 pm

Re: US threatens to suspend CX flights

Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:55 am

Cathay Pacific was mentioned in this wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... der_Xpress
and an article from 1990:
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html
 
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c933103
Posts: 5804
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: US threatens to suspend CX flights

Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:56 am

raylee67 wrote:
If US really bans CX from US completely, I can see that, given the current state of US/China relationship, Beijing will step in and force a suspension of the aviation agreement between Hong Kong and US, thereby ending all flights by all carriers, FedEx included. Economically it does not make sense to do this, but we are not talking about economics here. I don't think this is the result that FedEx wants to see when it launched its complaint to DoT but it could now be out of its control.

Chinese government didn't do this when they were themselves in dispute with the US in term of air service right
 
raylee67
Posts: 994
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: US threatens to suspend CX flights

Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:00 am

c933103 wrote:
Chinese government didn't do this when they were themselves in dispute with the US in term of air service right


The rhetoric about Hong Kong is different when it comes to China-US interaction.
 
raylee67
Posts: 994
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: US threatens to suspend CX flights

Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:06 am

Vicenza wrote:

You would be wrong then. The United Kingdom is at 35% of the population vaccinated, and increasing.


Slight correction here. UK has 35% of its population vaccinated with ONE DOSE. But the vaccine requires two doses. UK has elected to delay second dose to 12 weeks after 1st dose, and that's why they can get so many people vaccinated with one dose.

But coming April, that 12-week delay will come into play and most doses will need to be given to people with the first dose, instead of giving out as first dose for unvaccinated people. Thus, the number of vaccinated in UK will start to stagnate even the number of doses administered continues to rise.

The number people usually look at is "number of does administered per 100 people". Since most vaccines require two doses, a fully vaccinated country theoretically would have 200% of administration. But of course no one will reach 200% since people under 16 are not to be vaccinated and not all people above 16 will go get the vaccine. In any case, UK's number of 35/200 is still a long way from the goal.

Israel is the closest to the goal post with 109/200 right now.
 
patrickw421
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:49 pm

Re: US threatens to suspend CX flights

Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:44 am

chunhimlai wrote:
I think CX is actually happy with FX complain, which means the measurement could be relaxed


I don't think so. Most possible outcome would be hk government setting up some arrangement with FX (and other American carriers) for their crew to work similar to what CX has with its London and ANC routes and this whole thing is putting their usa routes at risk as bargaining chips. I won't be happy at all if I'm CX.

Don't expect a general relaxation of rules until much later, or I think they have better chance to negotiate relaxation for crew who are already vaccinated.
 
Some1Somewhere
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: US threatens to suspend CX flights

Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:21 pm

flyPIT wrote:
This is from the pilot involved:


"The pilot, who works for FedEx Express, was eventually “extracted” from the camp by U.S. officials after spending six days in solitary confinement in a small room.

The pilot spent New Year’s Eve in the quarantine camp after arriving in Hong Kong the day before for what should have been a routine overnight stay before operating a flight back to the United States. Instead, the pilot found himself locked up for six days while U.S. government officials worked to secure his release.

Although the pilot repeatedly tested negative for COVID-19, one of his colleagues had tested positive and he was therefore classed as a ‘close contact’. Under Hong Kong’s strict virus prevention rules, close contacts must spend 14-days in isolation in a government-approved camp.

Rather than being allowed to remain in quarantine in his hotel room, the pilot described officials dressed in ‘space suits’ turning up at his hotel and telling him in “raised voices” that he would be transferred to the notorious Penny Bay quarantine camp.

“I arrived at Penny’s Bat at about 1:00 am on December 31 to find a very large facility of two-story blocks of motel-style building, surrounded by high fencing with gates for vehicles, guard shacks, bright outdoor stadium-like lighting, and constant patrols along the perimeter by PPE-clad person, who I assumed were security personnel,” the pilot wrote in a written answer to the U.S. Department of Transportation.

“My small room included a one-person bed, about 5 feet long, made of two pieces of plywood and a thin mattress, a compact modular bathroom (all of which became a shower stall), a cement floor, and limited hot water, only enough for a daily 5-minute shower, and none at the sink tap.

“The room was drafty, but the heat supply was adequate. I had edible food for sustenance but poor to zero wi-fi,” the testimony continued.

The pilot described being served food through a window and staff who tried to force him to replace his mobile phone SIM card with one their own.

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2021 ... overnment/


Note he repeatedly tested negative but was still required to be incarcerated under draconian conditions by the HK authorities. To me the US gov't finally getting involved is about the safety and security of US crew members first, and any competitive disadvantage second. Me thinks that if HK would have simply let him stay in his hotel room like the rest of the world then the US gov't would not be involved.

The main issue with this:
Although the pilot repeatedly tested negative for COVID-19, one of his colleagues had tested positive and he was therefore classed as a ‘close contact’. Under Hong Kong’s strict virus prevention rules, close contacts must spend 14-days in isolation in a government-approved camp.

Negative tests mean little - people do not test positive until typically at least 48 hours after infection. Because of this, many countries require people to isolate for 10-14 daysafter close contact with a positive case regardless of test results or symptoms. In many countries, all close contacts are required to isolate - China/HK is unusual only in that it has to be in a government facility. Many places strongly encourage but don't require people to be isolated in a government facility.

NZ has had several cases of people who were exposed, went into isolation and tested negative repeatedly, then tested positive a few days later.

Even in the UK, isolation is legally required:
Anyone who tests positive for Covid-19, or has been told they have been in contact with someone who has, now has a legal duty to quarantine.
 
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janders
Moderator
Posts: 1237
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:27 pm

Re: US threatens to suspend CX flights

Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:43 pm

Despite warnings and near 30 deletions, this thread continues to veer off-topic into politics and flamebait comments.

Accordingly, it is hereby locked.

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