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Scotron12
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B737MAX Still considered for IAGs future fleet

Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:30 am

While not confirning any active negotiations with Boeing on their LOI for 200 signed by WW in 2019, CEO Luis Gallago said that the B737MAX was a "very good aircraft" and one that had to be "considered for the future".

Doesn't seem as eager as WW was on the B737MAX. Depends on recovery. IAG are hoping around 2023 for pax numbers to rebound to pre-covid levels.

IAG are looking to replace 225 SH aircraft 2023-2027.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... et-renewal
 
Opus99
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Re: B737MAX Still considered for IAGs future fleet

Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:38 am

I think the difference between WW and Luis is that he’ll allow Airbus bid. WW did not want to. But This is the first time Boeing has been invited to bid since the 737 classics at BA. They will be ruthless
 
BrianDromey
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Re: B737MAX Still considered for IAGs future fleet

Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:18 am

Opus99 wrote:
I think the difference between WW and Luis is that he’ll allow Airbus bid. WW did not want to. But This is the first time Boeing has been invited to bid since the 737 classics at BA. They will be ruthless


Worth remembering that IAG will operate the 737NG and 737MAX when they integrate AirEuropa into the group. This is a significant barrier to the 737 being removed from the group and IAG will have real-world data of how the 737 works in their operations and route networks. It will be a fascinating competition with the MAX and NEO already in the fleet, both CFM and PW power options also.
Replacing 200+ narrow bodies they could split the orders, could there even be a role for the A220? Will there really be a need for the sizeable A319 fleet to grow to A320/1 size?
 
FluidFlow
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Re: B737MAX Still considered for IAGs future fleet

Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:23 am

Opus99 wrote:
I think the difference between WW and Luis is that he’ll allow Airbus bid. WW did not want to. But This is the first time Boeing has been invited to bid since the 737 classics at BA. They will be ruthless


It is important to note BA!=IAG.

Just because of the operations out of LHR and the group strategy BA and IB will stay Airbus while the other entities will partially be equipped with 737s. Depending on how the group goes forward with all the brands, the low cost brand could be equipped with 737-8200s as they are perfect for the European market. For the "full service" carriers with main operations out of MAD and LHR, I see no chance forward for the 737 just because the bulk loading has massive operational disadvantages especially for T5 at LHR.
 
Opus99
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Re: B737MAX Still considered for IAGs future fleet

Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:26 am

FluidFlow wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
I think the difference between WW and Luis is that he’ll allow Airbus bid. WW did not want to. But This is the first time Boeing has been invited to bid since the 737 classics at BA. They will be ruthless


It is important to note BA!=IAG.

Just because of the operations out of LHR and the group strategy BA and IB will stay Airbus while the other entities will partially be equipped with 737s. Depending on how the group goes forward with all the brands, the low cost brand could be equipped with 737-8200s as they are perfect for the European market. For the "full service" carriers with main operations out of MAD and LHR, I see no chance forward for the 737 just because the bulk loading has massive operational disadvantages especially for T5 at LHR.

The MAX was slated for LGW at BA though, not LHR. They also wanted them for vueling expansion and replacement. I used BA because that was the last time they were involved or any of the airlines did that matter were involved with a 737
 
FluidFlow
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Re: B737MAX Still considered for IAGs future fleet

Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:30 am

Opus99 wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
I think the difference between WW and Luis is that he’ll allow Airbus bid. WW did not want to. But This is the first time Boeing has been invited to bid since the 737 classics at BA. They will be ruthless


It is important to note BA!=IAG.

Just because of the operations out of LHR and the group strategy BA and IB will stay Airbus while the other entities will partially be equipped with 737s. Depending on how the group goes forward with all the brands, the low cost brand could be equipped with 737-8200s as they are perfect for the European market. For the "full service" carriers with main operations out of MAD and LHR, I see no chance forward for the 737 just because the bulk loading has massive operational disadvantages especially for T5 at LHR.

The MAX was slated for LGW at BA though, not LHR. They also wanted them for vueling expansion and replacement. I used BA because that was the last time they were involved or any of the airlines did that matter were involved with a 737


The problem at the moment is, we have no Idea what the LGW operation for BA will look like in the future. We might even see a full retreat of the short haul offer. Maybe with all economy 737-8200s BA could compete but do they really want to tarnish their own brand with LGW operations. It would be more sensible to actually "outsource" LGW short haul through another IAG brand and keep BA out of it. So as I can see the 737 count growing in the group over the next years it seems a long shot to see it in BA colours, even less at IB as they are full Airbus at the moment and I haven't seen any indication that this could change soon.
 
Opus99
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Re: B737MAX Still considered for IAGs future fleet

Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:38 am

FluidFlow wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

It is important to note BA!=IAG.

Just because of the operations out of LHR and the group strategy BA and IB will stay Airbus while the other entities will partially be equipped with 737s. Depending on how the group goes forward with all the brands, the low cost brand could be equipped with 737-8200s as they are perfect for the European market. For the "full service" carriers with main operations out of MAD and LHR, I see no chance forward for the 737 just because the bulk loading has massive operational disadvantages especially for T5 at LHR.

The MAX was slated for LGW at BA though, not LHR. They also wanted them for vueling expansion and replacement. I used BA because that was the last time they were involved or any of the airlines did that matter were involved with a 737


The problem at the moment is, we have no Idea what the LGW operation for BA will look like in the future. We might even see a full retreat of the short haul offer. Maybe with all economy 737-8200s BA could compete but do they really want to tarnish their own brand with LGW operations. It would be more sensible to actually "outsource" LGW short haul through another IAG brand and keep BA out of it. So as I can see the 737 count growing in the group over the next years it seems a long shot to see it in BA colours, even less at IB as they are full Airbus at the moment and I haven't seen any indication that this could change soon.

We could very well not see the the jet in BA colours no doubt but BA seems determined to remain there. There are still flights operating out of Gatwick daily albeit long haul. I’m not sure the future of gatwick but I don’t disagree with you anyway. But I’ve always questioned how a 21st century terminal like T5 cannot handle un containerised baggage? I’m assuming other terminals at LHR can
 
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seahawk
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Re: B737MAX Still considered for IAGs future fleet

Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:38 am

Why should they not switch all IAG single aisle ops to the MAX?
 
Opus99
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Re: B737MAX Still considered for IAGs future fleet

Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:42 am

seahawk wrote:
Why should they not switch all IAG single aisle ops to the MAX?

As much as that would be interesting to see. I don’t think it’s operationally efficient. I think the MAX will play a big role in IAGs fleet mix in the future but not completely but WW had said back in Jan 2019 that one of this biggest regrets as CEO was not doing business with Boeing on the short haul operations.

IAG has also allowed 50 options on the 320 family to expire at BA
 
guillermohs
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Re: B737MAX Still considered for IAGs future fleet

Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:49 am

seahawk wrote:
Why should they not switch all IAG single aisle ops to the MAX?


The group has been receiving brand new A320N and A321NX for the last three years, there's no way they are switching all single aisle operations to the MAX in the foreseeable future.

I'm sure IAG is seriously evaluating the MAX for LGW and BCN operations, however, transaction costs are high and VY does not have such a large fleet to justify a mixed operation.
 
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Polot
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Re: B737MAX Still considered for IAGs future fleet

Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:07 am

guillermohs wrote:

I'm sure IAG is seriously evaluating the MAX for LGW and BCN operations, however, transaction costs are high and VY does not have such a large fleet to justify a mixed operation.

VY’s fleet isn’t much smaller than BA’s narrow body fleet. In terms of fleet size they are the second largest IAG airline after BA.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: B737MAX Still considered for IAGs future fleet

Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:32 am

Opus99 wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
The MAX was slated for LGW at BA though, not LHR. They also wanted them for vueling expansion and replacement. I used BA because that was the last time they were involved or any of the airlines did that matter were involved with a 737


The problem at the moment is, we have no Idea what the LGW operation for BA will look like in the future. We might even see a full retreat of the short haul offer. Maybe with all economy 737-8200s BA could compete but do they really want to tarnish their own brand with LGW operations. It would be more sensible to actually "outsource" LGW short haul through another IAG brand and keep BA out of it. So as I can see the 737 count growing in the group over the next years it seems a long shot to see it in BA colours, even less at IB as they are full Airbus at the moment and I haven't seen any indication that this could change soon.

We could very well not see the the jet in BA colours no doubt but BA seems determined to remain there. There are still flights operating out of Gatwick daily albeit long haul. I’m not sure the future of gatwick but I don’t disagree with you anyway. But I’ve always questioned how a 21st century terminal like T5 cannot handle un containerised baggage? I’m assuming other terminals at LHR can


They can at T5 but it is inefficient because the terminal was built around containerised operation. Southwest could also have a second fleet type but it would be inefficient. If you optimised your system towards a special operation it will make everything else inefficient. This has benefits and drawbacks.

For LGW: BA long haul will stay, I just doubt short haul will come back the way it was, if it even comes back.
 
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seahawk
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Re: B737MAX Still considered for IAGs future fleet

Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:16 pm

guillermohs wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Why should they not switch all IAG single aisle ops to the MAX?


The group has been receiving brand new A320N and A321NX for the last three years, there's no way they are switching all single aisle operations to the MAX in the foreseeable future.

I'm sure IAG is seriously evaluating the MAX for LGW and BCN operations, however, transaction costs are high and VY does not have such a large fleet to justify a mixed operation.


200 frames seems a bit excessive for just Vueling and LGW.
 
RexBanner
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Re: B737MAX Still considered for IAGs future fleet

Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:23 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
The problem at the moment is, we have no Idea what the LGW operation for BA will look like in the future. We might even see a full retreat of the short haul offer. Maybe with all economy 737-8200s BA could compete but do they really want to tarnish their own brand with LGW operations. It would be more sensible to actually "outsource" LGW short haul through another IAG brand and keep BA out of it. So as I can see the 737 count growing in the group over the next years it seems a long shot to see it in BA colours, even less at IB as they are full Airbus at the moment and I haven't seen any indication that this could change soon.


Just a point of order, the slots at LGW are specifically BA slots, they’re not IAG slots.
 
guillermohs
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Re: B737MAX Still considered for IAGs future fleet

Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:58 pm

seahawk wrote:
guillermohs wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Why should they not switch all IAG single aisle ops to the MAX?


The group has been receiving brand new A320N and A321NX for the last three years, there's no way they are switching all single aisle operations to the MAX in the foreseeable future.

I'm sure IAG is seriously evaluating the MAX for LGW and BCN operations, however, transaction costs are high and VY does not have such a large fleet to justify a mixed operation.


200 frames seems a bit excessive for just Vueling and LGW.


The LOI was signed pre-pandemic, when IAG had big plans for LEVEL as well. Now that LEVEL is set to remain a marginal low-cost long haul airline from BCN the 200 MAX seem excessive just for BA and VY.
 
Antarius
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Re: B737MAX Still considered for IAGs future fleet

Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:05 pm

seahawk wrote:
guillermohs wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Why should they not switch all IAG single aisle ops to the MAX?


The group has been receiving brand new A320N and A321NX for the last three years, there's no way they are switching all single aisle operations to the MAX in the foreseeable future.

I'm sure IAG is seriously evaluating the MAX for LGW and BCN operations, however, transaction costs are high and VY does not have such a large fleet to justify a mixed operation.


200 frames seems a bit excessive for just Vueling and LGW.


It does now after COVID. Back in 2019, being delivered over several years, the order made sense for expansion plans.
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
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Crosswind
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Re: B737MAX Still considered for IAGs future fleet

Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:31 pm

The answer is, nobody really knows.

The LOI will have an expiry date, and its never been revealed in public when that is.

But there were several reasons for signing the LOI at the time;

(1) It was opportunistic, Boeing were reeling from the grounding. A blue chip customer signing up was a welcome bit of positive news.

(2) IAG didn’t want to end up like Ryanair or Southwest. They were pretty much a sole-supplier short haul fleet. The Airbus NEO backlog was huge. How do you seriously negotiate your next order when you basically have no other option but to stick with the incumbent supplier. You have no leverage on price or to secure good delivery slots. IAG had realised that across the group with BA/Iberia/Vueling/Aer Lings/Level there was room for 2 suppliers - same as at other airlines such as American and Delta.

It seems many think that the Max LOI was for extra capacity, but most of it would replace existing capacity. And the overreaching considerations were an amazing price, and avoiding ending up beholden to Airbus for the A320 family.

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