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Woodreau
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:10 pm

There’s only one commercial operator currently flying into ASE. All of the United, American and former Delta flights are operated by Skywest.

Republic (Q400s) and Envoy (CRJ-700) used to operate into ASE, but no longer do.

Unless something changes, once the CRJ-700 goes away there will be no commercial airline service to ASE.

The airport will remain open providing service to private aircraft which constitutes the majority of air service today anyway.

The issue is multi faceted with multiple issues that need to be solved.

The airport itself
Aircraft with sufficient performance to operate out of ASE
A 121 operator willing to spend the money to get FAA approval to operate out of ASE, since the only 121 operator that has FAA approval is Skywest.

During certain conditions even the CRJ-700 is performance limited in ASE. There were several times during certain conditions, we had to bump 60 pax because all we could take into ASE was 5 pax. So instead we took all 65, and flew to ASE, but never intended to land at ASE and diverted to GJT where busses would take the pax to ASE. Then we’d wait for the busses from ASE driving the pax to GJT.

Looks like the future of commercial service relies on 175E2. Since Skywest can just add that onto their approved aircraft list to operate into ASE once they demonstrate they can do it to the FAAs satisfaction. Then the airport would need to do whatever construction project they need to do to get the 175E2 to work.

The a220 doesn’t have a future because mainline scope prevents Skywest from flying the a220. So any a220 operator will have to spend resources to get FAA approval.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
RJNUT
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:34 pm

If, as Woodreau says , commercial operations will evaporate once CR7 sunsets, then i would think DL WOULD spend the resources to certify the a220 as to have a monopoly in the market with good yields, no?
 
fcogafa
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:37 pm

RJNUT wrote:
If, as Woodreau says , commercial operations will evaporate once CR7 sunsets, then i would think DL WOULD spend the resources to certify the a220 as to have a monopoly in the market with good yields, no?


But would they pay for the runway relocation that goes with it though....
 
flight152
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:39 pm

Woodreau wrote:
There’s only one commercial operator currently flying into ASE. All of the United, American and former Delta flights are operated by Skywest.

Republic (Q400s) and Envoy (CRJ-700) used to operate into ASE, but no longer do.

Unless something changes, once the CRJ-700 goes away there will be no commercial airline service to ASE.

The airport will remain open providing service to private aircraft which constitutes the majority of air service today anyway.

The issue is multi faceted with multiple issues that need to be solved.

The airport itself
Aircraft with sufficient performance to operate out of ASE
A 121 operator willing to spend the money to get FAA approval to operate out of ASE, since the only 121 operator that has FAA approval is Skywest.

During certain conditions even the CRJ-700 is performance limited in ASE. There were several times during certain conditions, we had to bump 60 pax because all we could take into ASE was 5 pax. So instead we took all 65, and flew to ASE, but never intended to land at ASE and diverted to GJT where busses would take the pax to ASE. Then we’d wait for the busses from ASE driving the pax to GJT.

Looks like the future of commercial service relies on 175E2. Since Skywest can just add that onto their approved aircraft list to operate into ASE once they demonstrate they can do it to the FAAs satisfaction. Then the airport would need to do whatever construction project they need to do to get the 175E2 to work.

The a220 doesn’t have a future because mainline scope prevents Skywest from flying the a220. So any a220 operator will have to spend resources to get FAA approval.

Skywest can add any aircraft they want to their certificate, but it’s not going to do any good if it doesn’t comply with mainline scope clauses- which it doesn’t (E2)
 
Woodreau
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:50 pm

Then in that case, it looks like some mainline operator will need to either:
Expand/relax scope to allow Skywest to operate a larger aircraft or
Take delivery of an aircraft that can operate into ASE and get FAA approval to operate it into ASE.

So looks like maybe not Skywest then, but Delta willing to devote resources to get FAA approval for Delta to operate its 220s to ASE and ASE doing the airfield improvements to accommodate the 220.
Or a mainline operator taking delivery of the 175E2 and doing the same thing Delta has to do for its 220s.

Lots of moving parts have to come together. in any scenario.

It took Envoy about a year to get FAA approval to operate into ASE in 2012.
Last edited by Woodreau on Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
RJNUT
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:58 pm

the most detrimental moving part is the public input which is nothing more than a "we dont want this, we dont want that,etc." with ZERO basis in operational constraints of differing A/C, scope clauses, market trends! NIMBYism at its worst and the airport director does very little to educate those folks and gives undo weight and credence to their "uneducated" opinions
 
Woodreau
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:06 pm

From what I understand while working during the Envoy approval process, the FAA FSDO responsible for the mountain region would rather not have commercial operations at ASE and “wished the airport didn’t exist,” due to the performance requirements.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
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Polot
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:21 pm

RJNUT wrote:
the most detrimental moving part is the public input which is nothing more than a "we dont want this, we dont want that,etc." with ZERO basis in operational constraints of differing A/C, scope clauses, market trends! NIMBYism at its worst and the airport director does very little to educate those folks and gives undo weight and credence to their "uneducated" opinions

NIMBYism is generally based on noise and traffic. They don’t (and really shouldn’t) care about things like market trends and scope clauses. Usually NIMBYism is because they don’t like the current market trend and scope clauses is an entirely operator created issue.
 
TigerFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:27 pm

The new CRJ550s that United is taking are basically CRJ700s with a few seats removed and a paperwork change to stay within scope. So, UA will have no problem maintaining ASE service indefinitely. You can be sure that other airlines won't cede a monopoly to UA.
 
NLINK
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:47 pm

TigerFlyer wrote:
The new CRJ550s that United is taking are basically CRJ700s with a few seats removed and a paperwork change to stay within scope. So, UA will have no problem maintaining ASE service indefinitely. You can be sure that other airlines won't cede a monopoly to UA.


That is presuming Skywest wil operate the CRJ550 which they have said they are not interested due the low rates UA pays. I also think GoJet with the history of the company will be unable to get certified with the 550 as it is very tough to gain.
 
RJNUT
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:50 pm

i thought the CRJ 550 had artificial range and payload constraints that would limit the route flexibility of the 700?
 
VSMUT
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:55 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Citrus1492 wrote:
Sounds like a mission for the dash 7.
Any other turboprops with better engine out climb?


No need to climb out directly. You can just circle inside the valley until you can get out.


Not sure I’d try that in IMC.


It's standard stuff for turboprops in mountainous areas. You'll typically find an IFR procedure in your performance charts based on available navigation aids. I'm more surprised you didn't know about it.
 
mhockey31091
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:08 pm

The 175 will be going there at some point.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:06 pm

VSMUT wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

No need to climb out directly. You can just circle inside the valley until you can get out.


Not sure I’d try that in IMC.


It's standard stuff for turboprops in mountainous areas. You'll typically find an IFR procedure in your performance charts based on available navigation aids. I'm more surprised you didn't know about it.


Didn’t a turboprop or commercial service into KASE. But, lots of corporate in there, place is a headache. Have you operated there? It’s a pretty tight bowl and I can’t imagine a circling departure knowing the navaids and established EOSIDs.
 
codc10
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:37 pm

mhockey31091 wrote:
The 175 will be going there at some point.


SkyWest has done 175 trials at ASE in the past. Not in commercial service, but flew various approach profiles, missed approaches, extraction procedure, etc.

It technically fits within the gross weight/span envelope at ASE, but for operational reasons it only makes sense for SkyWest to have one fleet certified for ASE on its opspec.

The biggest concern, as far as I can tell, is that 175 *marginally* noisier than the CR7. We are talking like 3db. But replacing one airplane with a noisier type is anathema to Aspen residents and will no doubt be met with strong opposition.
 
TigerFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:54 pm

codc10 wrote:
mhockey31091 wrote:
The 175 will be going there at some point.


SkyWest has done 175 trials at ASE in the past. Not in commercial service, but flew various approach profiles, missed approaches, extraction procedure, etc.

It technically fits within the gross weight/span envelope at ASE, but for operational reasons it only makes sense for SkyWest to have one fleet certified for ASE on its opspec.

The biggest concern, as far as I can tell, is that 175 *marginally* noisier than the CR7. We are talking like 3db. But replacing one airplane with a noisier type is anathema to Aspen residents and will no doubt be met with strong opposition.


The saving grace to the noise crazies is that Aspen residents need to come and go from there too. So, if the alternative is a two hour drive from Grand Forks, I think they will find a way to make peace with the available and capable types that can serve ASE. A 175 would be a nice upgrade in service quality.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:48 pm

Sounds like the perfect DC-3 airport. :lol:
 
rbavfan
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:55 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
The issue has been going on for years - the airport has tried to call for expanding/extending the runway, even to 737 capability... but the locals aren’t sold. My guess is the CR7 has 10ish years left before it’s gone for good and ASE will be a huge reason why it lasts that long. By then I’m guessing some construction will at least enable another 76 seater to get in and out

The locals that matter can still get in to ASE in their G-V's and TBM's, so it doesn't really matter to them. And reducing the number of smelly plebes visiting the area is a bonus to those who own the mountainside chalets.


What is the term TBM stand for. Does not come up on web search that tell what it stands for? Seems it stands for single engine turboprops. Except for the small jet using the tmb in it's name.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:06 pm

Polot wrote:
RJNUT wrote:
the most detrimental moving part is the public input which is nothing more than a "we dont want this, we dont want that,etc." with ZERO basis in operational constraints of differing A/C, scope clauses, market trends! NIMBYism at its worst and the airport director does very little to educate those folks and gives undo weight and credence to their "uneducated" opinions

NIMBYism is generally based on noise and traffic. They don’t (and really shouldn’t) care about things like market trends and scope clauses. Usually NIMBYism is because they don’t like the current market trend and scope clauses is an entirely operator created issue.


We'll see the resorts pitted against the NIMBYs. I'll put money on the resorts, and money (public money, most surely) will be found to make airport improvements to keep commercial passenger ops at ASE.
 
rbavfan
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:16 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
The issue has been going on for years - the airport has tried to call for expanding/extending the runway, even to 737 capability... but the locals aren’t sold. My guess is the CR7 has 10ish years left before it’s gone for good and ASE will be a huge reason why it lasts that long. By then I’m guessing some construction will at least enable another 76 seater to get in and out

The locals that matter can still get in to ASE in their G-V's and TBM's, so it doesn't really matter to them. And reducing the number of smelly plebes visiting the area is a bonus to those who own the mountainside chalets.


Wow. I know quite a number of those people and they don't refer to people as Smelly or Plebes. Extremely rude to put in a comment.
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:44 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Polot wrote:
RJNUT wrote:
the most detrimental moving part is the public input which is nothing more than a "we dont want this, we dont want that,etc." with ZERO basis in operational constraints of differing A/C, scope clauses, market trends! NIMBYism at its worst and the airport director does very little to educate those folks and gives undo weight and credence to their "uneducated" opinions

NIMBYism is generally based on noise and traffic. They don’t (and really shouldn’t) care about things like market trends and scope clauses. Usually NIMBYism is because they don’t like the current market trend and scope clauses is an entirely operator created issue.


We'll see the resorts pitted against the NIMBYs. I'll put money on the resorts, and money (public money, most surely) will be found to make airport improvements to keep commercial passenger ops at ASE.



Exactly, similar issue happened in HHH in 2016-2018. American Airlines (the only commercial airline at HHH at the time) told the community that they would be retiring the DHC-8, and once the Dash was retired there would be no aircraft in AAs fleet that could operate from a 4300 foot runway. When HHH realized AA was serious, they found the will to add 700 feet of runway and cut the trees cut to allow adequate performance. Now the field receives jet service to NYC by AA, DL, and UA- and has non stops as far west as ORD.

So yeah the NIMBYs were right, by keeping the airport small, it limited the noise impact- but the NIMBYs could not stomach the drive to the next best thing.

When push comes to shove, the Aspen Ski Resort and city will make sure a commercial airline can have viable service to ASE, otherwise the ski resort and city will have to compete with all the other resorts that are a 2+ hour drive from the nearest airport in the US Rockies.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:52 pm

There are photos in the database of Q200s and Q400s at Aspen, so presumably these work:




V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:57 pm

rbavfan wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
The issue has been going on for years - the airport has tried to call for expanding/extending the runway, even to 737 capability... but the locals aren’t sold. My guess is the CR7 has 10ish years left before it’s gone for good and ASE will be a huge reason why it lasts that long. By then I’m guessing some construction will at least enable another 76 seater to get in and out

The locals that matter can still get in to ASE in their G-V's and TBM's, so it doesn't really matter to them. And reducing the number of smelly plebes visiting the area is a bonus to those who own the mountainside chalets.


What is the term TBM stand for. Does not come up on web search that tell what it stands for? Seems it stands for single engine turboprops. Except for the small jet using the tmb in it's name.


Daher TBM single turboprop, the Bonanza doctor killer for the 21st century.
 
N415XJ
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:24 pm

rbavfan wrote:

What is the term TBM stand for. Does not come up on web search that tell what it stands for? Seems it stands for single engine turboprops. Except for the small jet using the tmb in it's name.


The TBM is a family of single-engine executive turboprops made by SOCATA/Daher. It was originally a collaboration with Mooney- the TB stands for Tarbes, France, where SOCATA is based, and M for Mooney.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:32 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
There are photos in the database of Q200s and Q400s at Aspen, so presumably these work:




V/F


No one except QX flies those in the US, and even then they may be on the way out there as well.

UA, DL, and AA will find a way to get OO E175s in there, but that is several years away from needing any kind of effort. Right now bigger fish to fry.

Funny that this thread was started minutes after I was talking to somebody about this very topic on the train at DEN. Eavesdropping?
 
bigb
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:47 am

DenverTed wrote:
Alaska Airlines lists the E175 as a wingspan with winglets of 94'-2". Does the CR7 have better engine out performance since the engine is closer to centerline? Sounds like this has to do with climb and terrain rather than airfield constraints for the E175.


Negative, it’s all about power to weight ratio.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:03 am

bigb wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
Alaska Airlines lists the E175 as a wingspan with winglets of 94'-2". Does the CR7 have better engine out performance since the engine is closer to centerline? Sounds like this has to do with climb and terrain rather than airfield constraints for the E175.


Negative, it’s all about power to weight ratio.


Actually, it depends, thrust to weight, yes; aerodynamic efficiency of the wing (span loading, with loading, high lift devices drag); thrust lapse rate with altitude (7,800’), how the specific airline EOSID is designed, is RNP available for the type. That’s a beginning. Engine position is probably not a factor UNLESS either type has a high Vmcg which makes runway length possibly a factor. If the EOSID has speed constraints to make the track good, Vmca might be a factor.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:51 am

ihmcallister wrote:

In the late 1980s Continental Express used ATR-42s there, but they weren't great on one engine. They re-hired some Convair 580s, which United Express also had. Now that was a machine that had single engine turboprop power that bettered the original pair of Wrights working together!


As I recall, CO Express (Rocky Mountain Airways or RMA) leased one CV580 from Sierra Pacific for use between DEN and JAC. I don't remember it operating to ASE, but it may have. RMA's Dash 7s had lower approach minimums than the VOR/DME approach the ATR-42s had to use.

CO-Ex tried Rifle one winter season ('92-'93?), but the service was problematic at best. This service was for the days when the ASE weather was too low.

Around 1993, CO-Ex acquired 2 ATR-72s for use from DEN to ASE. These aircraft were equipped with GPS/FMS and flew GPS approaches into ASE that winter, which I believe made them the first US Part 121 carrier to get such approval (please correct me if I'm in error).

The wing span of the CV580 is 105 feet, slightly greater than the wingspan of the E-175.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I presume, despite MTOGW over 86,000#, the E175 is scope compliant for SKW mainline partners.


The E-175-E1 is Scope compliant for the US carriers, the -E2 is too heavy, IIRC.
Last edited by FlyHossD on Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
bigb
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:00 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
bigb wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
Alaska Airlines lists the E175 as a wingspan with winglets of 94'-2". Does the CR7 have better engine out performance since the engine is closer to centerline? Sounds like this has to do with climb and terrain rather than airfield constraints for the E175.


Negative, it’s all about power to weight ratio.


Actually, it depends, thrust to weight, yes; aerodynamic efficiency of the wing (span loading, with loading, high lift devices drag); thrust lapse rate with altitude (7,800’), how the specific airline EOSID is designed, is RNP available for the type. That’s a beginning. Engine position is probably not a factor UNLESS either type has a high Vmcg which makes runway length possibly a factor. If the EOSID has speed constraints to make the track good, Vmca might be a factor.


Yes, I am trying to keep in simple in layman’s term. The CRJ-700 wing is a efficient and its engines are the same as as those on the CRJ-900s, with just a slight derate. Speaking from experience of flying the CRJ-200/700/900, the engine out performance for the CRJ-700 is mainly a power to weight ordeal. Especially when the average takeoff weights for I’ve normally seen are in the 60k.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:14 am

I looked up the APG on the G6500, lots of thrust, low Vmcg and efficient wing. Using a Special DP, it is field length limited, but obstacle limited w/o the EOSID. 86,000# at 5c, enough to just make HNL. If they lift the wingspan limits, the 7500 can do about 12 hours out of there at .85.
 
Sypho839
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:25 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I don't think there is much commercial demand to ASE. If there was we would have already seen the airport expand facilities to accommodate larger aircraft. We would also see wingtip to wingtip CR7 flights. That just isn't the case. There's seven flights to DEN and 1-2x to the remaining cities and even some of them are seasonal. The majority visiting into ASE do not fly commercial. And that's not a problem.


The new development (whatever it ends up being) will include additional parking stands so the demand is or will be at that level. The terminal itself is also expanding, including an additional 1-2 floors and more shops/restaurants. During peak days, it can get busy. The local economy will suffer without commercial service.
 
Sypho839
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:34 am

Polot wrote:
RJNUT wrote:
the most detrimental moving part is the public input which is nothing more than a "we dont want this, we dont want that,etc." with ZERO basis in operational constraints of differing A/C, scope clauses, market trends! NIMBYism at its worst and the airport director does very little to educate those folks and gives undo weight and credence to their "uneducated" opinions

NIMBYism is generally based on noise and traffic. They don’t (and really shouldn’t) care about things like market trends and scope clauses. Usually NIMBYism is because they don’t like the current market trend and scope clauses is an entirely operator created issue.


The residents also don't want Aspen to become Vail. They have even mentioned that they don't want ASE to become a "hub" so they are very worried when they hear the word "expansion". The BOCC is working hard to explain the terms used on this forum but the town will lose out on economic growth if it does not make the necessary expansions to accommodate ADG III aircraft size. Additional agreements will involve the use of SAFs and alternative power sources for ground equipment to gain resident support - addressing climate concerns.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:35 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Polot wrote:
RJNUT wrote:
the most detrimental moving part is the public input which is nothing more than a "we dont want this, we dont want that,etc." with ZERO basis in operational constraints of differing A/C, scope clauses, market trends! NIMBYism at its worst and the airport director does very little to educate those folks and gives undo weight and credence to their "uneducated" opinions

NIMBYism is generally based on noise and traffic. They don’t (and really shouldn’t) care about things like market trends and scope clauses. Usually NIMBYism is because they don’t like the current market trend and scope clauses is an entirely operator created issue.


We'll see the resorts pitted against the NIMBYs. I'll put money on the resorts, and money (public money, most surely) will be found to make airport improvements to keep commercial passenger ops at ASE.


100% agree with you in every resort market not ASE. In ASE the NIMBYs have more money then the resort. They have kept the airport right sized on purpose demand has been there for a long time to expand. The airport can handle more service in winter and summer. Its a very seasonal demand. The locals want some service so they can fly in/out easily, its a huge selling point to alot of people to move there, but don't want larger planes and too many masses flying in. Its a tricky situation to balance. Yes they want the service, but don't want to be overrun like Vail.
 
VSMUT
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:06 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Not sure I’d try that in IMC.


It's standard stuff for turboprops in mountainous areas. You'll typically find an IFR procedure in your performance charts based on available navigation aids. I'm more surprised you didn't know about it.


Didn’t a turboprop or commercial service into KASE. But, lots of corporate in there, place is a headache. Have you operated there? It’s a pretty tight bowl and I can’t imagine a circling departure knowing the navaids and established EOSIDs.


No, but I do have the plates in my EFB and have seen the videos on youtube. The place is a challenge, but by no means unique. There are other places around the world that pose a bigger challenge (taller mountains closer to the runway), and I've been to several of those. And as somebody wrote further up, Continental served Aspen with asthmatic old ATR 42-300s in the past.
 
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Matt6461
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:58 pm

I flew on a 757 into ASE ten years ago.
 
amcnd
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:16 pm

mhockey31091 wrote:
The 175 will be going there at some point.



Ive also heard this... but sooner then most think i bet..
 
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Spacepope
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:20 pm

Matt6461 wrote:
I flew on a 757 into ASE ten years ago.


On Air Force 2?

The first 737 didn’t make it to Aspen till 2018 evidently.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
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Matt6461
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:41 pm

Spacepope wrote:
Matt6461 wrote:
I flew on a 757 into ASE ten years ago.


On Air Force 2?

The first 737 didn’t make it to Aspen till 2018 evidently.


757 has good shortfield performance if light for a short flight - connected from Denver.
 
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T18
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:49 pm

RJNUT wrote:
i thought the CRJ 550 had artificial range and payload constraints that would limit the route flexibility of the 700?


I was curious when the 550 would come up in this thread.
To answer that, um sort of, it has a artificial payload/MTOW limit due to scope, the range itself is the same as a 700 but the useful range with pax is shortened, that said I think DEN-ASE would be of little issue even if fueled for the round trip, excluding any extra procedures enacted for the terrain and such.
That said, I have not heard any rumblings that UAL wants G7 or the 550s flying out of DEN at this time.
“Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting.” ― Steve McQueen (Le Mans) 1971
 
alasizon
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:47 pm

Matt6461 wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
Matt6461 wrote:
I flew on a 757 into ASE ten years ago.


On Air Force 2?

The first 737 didn’t make it to Aspen till 2018 evidently.


757 has good shortfield performance if light for a short flight - connected from Denver.


Pretty sure you are thinking of EGE, there isn't room for a 757 in ASE, particularly not as a scheduled flight.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:43 pm

rbavfan wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
The issue has been going on for years - the airport has tried to call for expanding/extending the runway, even to 737 capability... but the locals aren’t sold. My guess is the CR7 has 10ish years left before it’s gone for good and ASE will be a huge reason why it lasts that long. By then I’m guessing some construction will at least enable another 76 seater to get in and out

The locals that matter can still get in to ASE in their G-V's and TBM's, so it doesn't really matter to them. And reducing the number of smelly plebes visiting the area is a bonus to those who own the mountainside chalets.


What is the term TBM stand for. Does not come up on web search that tell what it stands for? Seems it stands for single engine turboprops. Except for the small jet using the tmb in it's name.

Socata TBM, popular turboprop known for its short field and mountain performance. Same for the Pilatus, especially the new PC-24.
 
32andBelow
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:14 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
The locals that matter can still get in to ASE in their G-V's and TBM's, so it doesn't really matter to them. And reducing the number of smelly plebes visiting the area is a bonus to those who own the mountainside chalets.


What is the term TBM stand for. Does not come up on web search that tell what it stands for? Seems it stands for single engine turboprops. Except for the small jet using the tmb in it's name.

Socata TBM, popular turboprop known for its short field and mountain performance. Same for the Pilatus, especially the new PC-24.

The pc24 is a jet
 
dfwjim1
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:36 am

Slightly off topic but has there been any proposals to close ASE and build a new airport in the valley near Basalt? I visited Aspen for the first time last year and it seemed like the area near Basalt could handle a new airport that would be safer and larger than ASE.

Probably a pipe dream though.
 
dstblj52
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:29 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I presume, despite MTOGW over 86,000#, the E175 is scope compliant for SKW mainline partners.

E175 skywest operates has a paper reduced mtow to 86K
 
dstblj52
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:31 am

Woodreau wrote:
There’s only one commercial operator currently flying into ASE. All of the United, American and former Delta flights are operated by Skywest.

Republic (Q400s) and Envoy (CRJ-700) used to operate into ASE, but no longer do.

Unless something changes, once the CRJ-700 goes away there will be no commercial airline service to ASE.

The airport will remain open providing service to private aircraft which constitutes the majority of air service today anyway.

The issue is multi faceted with multiple issues that need to be solved.

The airport itself
Aircraft with sufficient performance to operate out of ASE
A 121 operator willing to spend the money to get FAA approval to operate out of ASE, since the only 121 operator that has FAA approval is Skywest.

During certain conditions even the CRJ-700 is performance limited in ASE. There were several times during certain conditions, we had to bump 60 pax because all we could take into ASE was 5 pax. So instead we took all 65, and flew to ASE, but never intended to land at ASE and diverted to GJT where busses would take the pax to ASE. Then we’d wait for the busses from ASE driving the pax to GJT.

Looks like the future of commercial service relies on 175E2. Since Skywest can just add that onto their approved aircraft list to operate into ASE once they demonstrate they can do it to the FAAs satisfaction. Then the airport would need to do whatever construction project they need to do to get the 175E2 to work.

The a220 doesn’t have a future because mainline scope prevents Skywest from flying the a220. So any a220 operator will have to spend resources to get FAA approval.

E175E2 is also out of scope too heavy or has no range
 
twaconnie
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:54 am

There's still some CV-580's for sale.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:52 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Polot wrote:
NIMBYism is generally based on noise and traffic. They don’t (and really shouldn’t) care about things like market trends and scope clauses. Usually NIMBYism is because they don’t like the current market trend and scope clauses is an entirely operator created issue.


We'll see the resorts pitted against the NIMBYs. I'll put money on the resorts, and money (public money, most surely) will be found to make airport improvements to keep commercial passenger ops at ASE.


100% agree with you in every resort market not ASE. In ASE the NIMBYs have more money then the resort. They have kept the airport right sized on purpose demand has been there for a long time to expand. The airport can handle more service in winter and summer. Its a very seasonal demand. The locals want some service so they can fly in/out easily, its a huge selling point to alot of people to move there, but don't want larger planes and too many masses flying in. Its a tricky situation to balance. Yes they want the service, but don't want to be overrun like Vail.


See post #71.

Not everybody in Aspen - the catchment, not the town - has a $10 million third home. If you kill the resort - and making people drive 2+ hours will kill the resort - you kill tons of service jobs, too, and then the rich homeowners have nobody to make their lattes or give them massages. Suggestions to use Grand Junction or Rifle as alternates completely miss the point. The city, the state, and corporate money will not allow ASE passenger service to end.

If the very well heeled Aspen residents were omnipotent and irredeemably opposed to scheduled aviation, we wouldn't see CR7s there.
 
DenverTed
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:00 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
bigb wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
Alaska Airlines lists the E175 as a wingspan with winglets of 94'-2". Does the CR7 have better engine out performance since the engine is closer to centerline? Sounds like this has to do with climb and terrain rather than airfield constraints for the E175.


Negative, it’s all about power to weight ratio.


Actually, it depends, thrust to weight, yes; aerodynamic efficiency of the wing (span loading, with loading, high lift devices drag); thrust lapse rate with altitude (7,800’), how the specific airline EOSID is designed, is RNP available for the type. That’s a beginning. Engine position is probably not a factor UNLESS either type has a high Vmcg which makes runway length possibly a factor. If the EOSID has speed constraints to make the track good, Vmca might be a factor.

I would think that yawing moment would have some effect. Wouldn't there be more drag force on the rudder of the E175 to keep it flying straight than on the CR7?
 
DenverTed
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:30 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
Slightly off topic but has there been any proposals to close ASE and build a new airport in the valley near Basalt? I visited Aspen for the first time last year and it seemed like the area near Basalt could handle a new airport that would be safer and larger than ASE.

Probably a pipe dream though.

With Aspen emplanements at 300,000 per year, or 800 per day, it seems like they need a bigger airport. Something nice and new like Paine Field, with some glass jetways and other things befitting of the general built infrastructure found around Aspen.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What Will Happen to ASE as the CRJ-700 Sunsets?

Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:32 pm

DenverTed wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
bigb wrote:

Negative, it’s all about power to weight ratio.


Actually, it depends, thrust to weight, yes; aerodynamic efficiency of the wing (span loading, with loading, high lift devices drag); thrust lapse rate with altitude (7,800’), how the specific airline EOSID is designed, is RNP available for the type. That’s a beginning. Engine position is probably not a factor UNLESS either type has a high Vmcg which makes runway length possibly a factor. If the EOSID has speed constraints to make the track good, Vmca might be a factor.

I would think that yawing moment would have some effect. Wouldn't there be more drag force on the rudder of the E175 to keep it flying straight than on the CR7?


Possibly true, but irrelevant, it’s the ultimate performance based on the design compromises that matter. You can’t make a direct comparison saying the CRJ does better because it might have a bit less yaw moment and if the EMB used tail-mounted engines it would have better performance. If grandma had wheels, she’d be a trolley.

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